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Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden
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Chongo
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Oct 10, 2017, 08:00 AM
 
You’ve discovered the ancient iron clad reason known as The Problem of Evil.

The problem of evil is the greatest emotional obstacle to belief in God. It just doesn’t feel like God should let people suffer. If we were God, we think, we wouldn’t allow it.

The atheist philosopher J. L. Mackie maintained that belief in God was irrational, for if God were all-knowing (omniscient) he would know that there was evil in the world, if he were all-powerful (omnipotent) he could prevent it, and if he were all-good (omnibenevolent) then he would wish to prevent it. The fact that there is still evil in the world proves that God doesn’t exist, or if he did, that he must be “impotent, ignorant, or wicked.”

As keenly felt as the problem of evil may be, it doesn’t represent a strong intellectual or logical obstacle to God’s existence. Mackie was wrong: The existence of God and the existence of evil aren’t mutually exclusive. Let’s look at the three attributes of God that Mackie named.
You can read the rest of Matt Fradd’s article at Catholic Answers.
( Last edited by andi*pandi; Oct 19, 2017 at 06:21 PM. )
     
subego
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Oct 10, 2017, 08:06 AM
 
My pseudo-gnostic analysis is it's most likely god just claims to be all-powerful... because why not?

It's not like a god is going to have trouble running a con on a bunch of meatbags.
     
Chongo  (op)
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Oct 10, 2017, 08:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My pseudo-gnostic analysis is it's most likely god just claims to be all-powerful... because why not?

It's not like a god is going to have trouble running a con on a bunch of meatbags.
I didn’t quote the entire article because some get pissy if i do.
Omnipotence

As we noted in the prior answer, omnipotence doesn’t mean the ability to do what is logically impossible. It’s possible, therefore, for God to create beings with the kind of free will that can choose between good and evil, but he can’t also force those creatures to choose good. If he forced their choice, it wouldn’t be free.

C. S. Lewis put it this way: “If you choose to say, ‘God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,’ you have not succeeded in saying anything about God.”
     
subego
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Oct 10, 2017, 08:29 AM
 
It's not possible for an omnipotent god to create people without free will, and hence the inability to do evil?

Were Adam and Eve even capable of evil before they ate from the tree of knowledge?
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 11, 2017, 06:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I didn’t quote the entire article because some get pissy if i do.
The problem with arguing free will as a defence for the omnipotence question is that an omnipotent god can allow a being to choose evil but then smite them, cripple them, or simply grass them up and have them apprehended by others before they commit it. He need only prevent the deed, not the choice. Should be easy for someone truly omnipotent.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
el chupacabra
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Oct 18, 2017, 07:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
It's not possible for an omnipotent god to create people without free will, and hence the inability to do evil?
That would defeat the purpose.
People gain understanding and enlightenment from the things that make them Suffer in life. Even Buddhism teaches this and it started out as an agnostic philosophy/religion. Personally I find it very obvious. I prefer to be around humble people who've had a hard life than people who never had it hard. People who've had it hard appreciate things more. They appreciate the things you do. And I appreciate them in a way I wouldn't; as I wouldnt even notice their qualities if I were a spoiled brat. People who never had it hard are spoiled, nutty, mean, disconnected & irrational. ....Perhaps this is why foreigners dont like Americans and see it as offensive. The typical American is synonymous with spoilt brat. Maybe...

Were Adam and Eve even capable of evil before they ate from the tree of knowledge?
Yes, thats why they were capable of eating from the tree. The difference is they were like animals (or kids) not knowing sin, or good vs evil, so they weren't held accountable for sins until they ate from the tree. To me this just describe what many people go through growing up. As kids we arent born knowing what we do wrong, or knowing the emotion of guilt/shame (our mind is like the garden of Eden), until someone tells us what were doing is wrong, tells us not to do it, then we do it anyway in disobedience.

On a tangent, the bible suggests there were other people around during the time of adam & eve. Such as Cane going to another "land" and marrying some women. Christians who say this was his sister arent taking the bible literally because it doesnt say anywhere it was his sister and theres no reason to believe it would be. Any attempt at being historical is only meant to be a rough history of certain Mesopotamians and acknowledges there are other nations. The tribal people of the time probably didnt think they'd have to spell this out in lawyer speak for people of the future to figure out what should be common sense. My guess is our rulers created & use stuff like this just to draw a line in the sand so they can create an "us against them" society to motivate people into fighting for their causes. It seems to be a requirement in the tribal cortex of the brain that we be in a constant state of binary conflict (at the least)
the largest problem for Americans today is they eat too much food and dont have enough work to do to keep their heart healthy
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 18, 2017, 08:06 PM
 
Could he not have created beings capable of trying to be evil but not succeeding at it? Allowing one human being to be raped or murdered just to test another's intentions seems pretty evil to me.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
el chupacabra
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Oct 18, 2017, 10:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Could he not have created beings capable of trying to be evil but not succeeding at it?
So basically creating fake free will? You live in a universe where you have so much free will you even have the right to take away another's free will. Thats true free will

Allowing one human being to be raped or murdered just to test another's intentions seems pretty evil to me.
You suffer from the same dilema as Christians who dont believe in evolution. IOW you think you get to define what "good" and "evil" are. And any idea that seems "dark" or "evil" couldn't possibly have come about by a "good" god; therefore you dont believe in [insert here]...

The primary reason Christians dont believe in evolution (aside from politics) isnt that it provides a "way without God scenario", but it paints a darker picture of how we came to be. That being, in order for a species to evolve to be advanced, smart, betterer, like say humans, it required strong selection pressure, AKA a series of hardships that in the big picture weeds out or kills the weak and favors the strong. Since most mutations are negative mutations, that is, having a negative effect on evolutionary advancement, this means the majority of members within a species had to be prevented from breeding or have their offspring killed somewhere down the line (ie. only 3 sea turtle or salmon survive out of hundreds of eggs laid - the same has applied to humans until recent times). It just seems too dark for a god they've already decided created everything to fit into their representation of "good" & "pretty" and a god who they've decided exists to serve them & solve their problems.

For most of human history the average person had many many babies in their lifetime, but for the average person almost all of them died before adulthood, with an average survival rate being only slightly more than 2 per couple. In fact for most of human history our population has been as stable and non growing as any of the animal species. So.... early, or unfair death, is absolutely a part of the universe & the reality we live in. Everyone dies. Yet a bunch of you atheists have decided it's "evil" and therefore proof of no god. While Christians have taken the angle of modifying their belief in the laws of physics to comply with a scenario less dark.

It's not evil for a few reasons, 1 being past people didnt consider death to be the end of the world like they do today because death was more a part of their life. Today we are spoiled by having all our kids survive - and while you'd think it's a good thing all it's done is made us lose our mental health when just 1 dies, so much for progress.... Next being, a god could make everything right in the end, whether through reincarnation in the event of wrongfully early deaths, or a paradise waiting in the afterlife. Death isn't as bad as you think it is if a god does in fact exist, but you're already coming at this from the belief that a god doesn't exist....
the largest problem for Americans today is they eat too much food and dont have enough work to do to keep their heart healthy
     
subego
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Oct 19, 2017, 12:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
That would defeat the purpose.
Purpose of what?
     
Laminar
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Oct 19, 2017, 11:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Personally I find it very obvious. I prefer to be around humble people who've had a hard life than people who never had it hard. People who've had it hard appreciate things more. They appreciate the things you do. And I appreciate them in a way I wouldn't; as I wouldnt even notice their qualities if I were a spoiled brat. People who never had it hard are spoiled, nutty, mean, disconnected & irrational.
Is there a risk that your world view affects your perception?
     
Paco500
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Oct 19, 2017, 11:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
IOW you think you get to define what "good" and "evil" are. And any idea that seems "dark" or "evil" couldn't possibly have come about by a "good" god; therefore you dont believe in [insert here]...
Wait a second. I thought the deal with A&E eating the fruit of tree of knowledge of good and evil is that humanity gained understanding of what what good and evil we're.

I'm not sure anyone is defining it, they just recognise it when they see it.
     
subego
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Oct 19, 2017, 02:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Yes, thats why they were capable of eating from the tree. The difference is they were like animals (or kids) not knowing sin, or good vs evil, so they weren't held accountable for sins until they ate from the tree.
The sin they were held accountable for was eating from the tree. God told them they shouldn't, but how were they to know disobeying him was wrong without knowledge of good and evil?
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 19, 2017, 02:11 PM
 
Mods, this might need it's own thread
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 19, 2017, 08:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
So basically creating fake free will? You live in a universe where you have so much free will you even have the right to take away another's free will. Thats true free will

I don't see how my suggestion makes it fake. If a human makes the determination to commit an evil act, whatever it may be there is no reason that an omnipotent god can't step in and prevent the consequences at the last second. If I push someone off a building trying to kill them, the amount of evil in my intent doesn't change according to whether they live or die from their injuries.
Alternatively an omnipotent god has any number of options to convince someone who determines to knowingly commit evil that their acts and the consequences are real without them needing to be real for the victims.

You make it sound like life on Earth could be replaced by a holodeck program where only one participant at a time is 'real' and doesn't know they are in a simulation. If they live out the simulation without being evil, they get a pass upstairs, if they get too stabby or murdery they go downstairs and the simulation can even be cut short. Is that the Christian purpose of life on Earth? Its just a morality test?


Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
You suffer from the same dilema as Christians who dont believe in evolution. IOW you think you get to define what "good" and "evil" are. And any idea that seems "dark" or "evil" couldn't possibly have come about by a "good" god; therefore you dont believe in [insert here]...
While my list of evil acts may not be in perfect lock step with the biblical one, there is definitely crossover. Even if you go by the bible list there are numerous examples where the evil act of one causes the avoidable suffering of others and the suffering is always avoidable when you are all powerful. God performs a few acts that evil by his own standards. Wiping out the first born of Egypt, wiping out everyone in the flood.

In truth you have it backwards here. I don't believe in god and thats why I get to define good and evil for myself.


Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
For most of human history the average person had many many babies in their lifetime, but for the average person almost all of them died before adulthood, with an average survival rate being only slightly more than 2 per couple. In fact for most of human history our population has been as stable and non growing as any of the animal species. So.... early, or unfair death, is absolutely a part of the universe & the reality we live in. Everyone dies. Yet a bunch of you atheists have decided it's "evil" and therefore proof of no god. While Christians have taken the angle of modifying their belief in the laws of physics to comply with a scenario less dark.
Its not proof of no god, its proof of no loving god which in turn is proof that the bible is incorrect and therefore Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions are all wrong. Many Christians dismiss Evolution because they feel it disagrees with the literal description of human genesis in the bible and anything that discredits the bible would undermine the whole thing and therefore their whole religion. So the notion that disproving a loving god disproves Christianity is something that most Christian fundamentalists appear to believe as well, even if they disagree the first proof is correct.

Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
It's not evil for a few reasons, 1 being past people didnt consider death to be the end of the world like they do today because death was more a part of their life. Today we are spoiled by having all our kids survive - and while you'd think it's a good thing all it's done is made us lose our mental health when just 1 dies, so much for progress.... Next being, a god could make everything right in the end, whether through reincarnation in the event of wrongfully early deaths, or a paradise waiting in the afterlife. Death isn't as bad as you think it is if a god does in fact exist, but you're already coming at this from the belief that a god doesn't exist....
Again, an omnipotent loving god could allow death without any need for it ever to be violent, painful, prolonged, etc. Its not death thats necessarily evil, its the suffering and the cruelty and the trauma etc. Doesn't matter how omnipotent you are, standing idly by and not preventing a child being violently gang raped is not something you can ever make right after the fact. You can be forgiven for it, but you can't ever make it right.

A lot of the problems with these things are lack of understanding and lack of imagination. All these millions of people who happily believe and agree that god is all powerful but they lack a fraction of the imagination to understand the ramifications of what that would actually look like. Such a god doesn't have to resort to spurious denials of the laws of science, he is free to change them to make himself correct.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
besson3c
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Oct 19, 2017, 10:19 PM
 
The Christians Making Atheists

https://johnpavlovitz.com/2017/06/04...king-atheists/


Just ask around. People outside the Church will tell you: love is no longer our calling card. It is now condemnation, bigotry, judgment and hypocrisy. In fact, the Christianity prevalent in so much of America right now isn’t just failing to draw others to Christ, it is actively repelling them from him. By operating in a way that is in full opposition to the life and ministry of Jesus—it is understandably producing people fully opposed to the faith that bears his name.
     
Laminar
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Oct 20, 2017, 09:56 AM
 
Dude's legit.

And one day soon, these same religious folks will look around, lamenting the empty buildings and the irrelevance of the Church and a world that has no use for it, and they’ll wonder how this happened. They’ll blame a corrupt culture, or the liberal media, or a rejection of Biblical values, or the devil himself—but it will be none of those things.

No, the reason the Church soon will be teetering on the verge of extinction and irrelevance, will be because those entrusted to perpetuate the love of Jesus in the world, lost the plot so horribly, and gave the world no other option but to look elsewhere for goodness and purpose and truth.

Soon these Christians will ask why humanity has rejected Jesus and we will remind them of these days, and assure them that they have not rejected Jesus at all—they just found no evidence of him in the Church.
     
besson3c
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Oct 20, 2017, 10:25 AM
 
They have lost the plot so horribly.

I'm the furthest thing from a religious scholar imaginable (as in, I'm ignorant), but even I know from my early days in Sunday school and performing in churches that Jesus would care about those with "preexisting conditions" and show compassion for them rather than trying to take away their health insurance, for example (and one example of numerous).

When would you say that church politics became intertwined with the conservative party? Is there a relationship?
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 20, 2017, 11:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Dude's legit.
I suppose he has a point about losing the plot, but the church was losing influence long before its culture of hate took hold. If anything it's transformation is indicative of how much power it's lost. It's hatred and posture is a defensive reaction, in an attempt to unite its remaining members to stem the bleeding.

Many positive Christian values can be found and persued in secular charities. Those negative traits though...
     
Laminar
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Oct 20, 2017, 02:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I suppose he has a point about losing the plot, but the church was losing influence long before its culture of hate took hold. If anything its transformation is indicative of how much power it's lost. It's hatred and posture is a defensive reaction, in an attempt to unite its remaining members to stem the bleeding.
From what I've read, the church started getting involved in politics in the '40s and '50s as it opposed Communism. Then in the '70s, the moral outrage of abortion, birth control, homosexuality, prayer in schools, open sexual promiscuity, and forced integration at Bob Jones University amped everyone up. The seeds sewn then are being reaped today.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 20, 2017, 02:47 PM
 
I wonder how much the church is to blame for the polarization of today then. Abortion is probably one of the longest running wedge issues, aside from race, except you have to be subtle about race.
     
Snow-i
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Oct 20, 2017, 05:03 PM
 
What does God need with a starship?
     
andi*pandi
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Oct 20, 2017, 05:52 PM
 
jesus christ superstarship?
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 20, 2017, 06:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
What does God need with a starship?
To get the hell out of that terrible movie, maximum warp.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 20, 2017, 10:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
What does God need with a starship?
It has something to do with Marklars.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Oct 20, 2017, 10:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
jesus christ superstarship?
Take that you ****ing laser bears.
     
el chupacabra
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Oct 22, 2017, 11:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Is there a risk that your world view affects your perception?
Are you sure you didnt mean "is there a risk that my perception affects my world view?". Yes I guess. But Im not sure what world view really means. Im talking about basic laws of human nature here, not really the world. I'd say we all know that a child needs to be disciplined etc etc (same discipline is needed for adults, especially ones who were never disciplined as children). Being spoiled, having an easy life and all that is the opposite of discipline. But I guess these days people have forgotten about discipline and all the reasons it should exist.

besson3c
They have lost the plot so horribly.

I'm the furthest thing from a religious scholar imaginable (as in, I'm ignorant), but even I know from my early days in Sunday school and performing in churches that Jesus would care about those with "preexisting conditions" and show compassion for them rather than trying to take away their health insurance, for example (and one example of numerous).
Could you cite in the bible where Jesus supports insurance companies being forced to do business with everyone who wants to, and where he supports them being forced to pay for their pre-existing conditions despite the fact the person hasn't felt the need to pay before they got the condition. Can you cite where Jesus supports the existence of insurance or any kind of 'impersonal' wealth redistribution at all? Can you cite math to show that what you're asking is even possible without stealing from some other group of people?

" if a man will not work, he shall not eat." Thessalonians 3:10
the largest problem for Americans today is they eat too much food and dont have enough work to do to keep their heart healthy
     
besson3c
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Oct 22, 2017, 12:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Could you cite in the bible where Jesus supports insurance companies being forced to do business with everyone who wants to, and where he supports them being forced to pay for their pre-existing conditions despite the fact the person hasn't felt the need to pay before they got the condition. Can you cite where Jesus supports the existence of insurance or any kind of 'impersonal' wealth redistribution at all? Can you cite math to show that what you're asking is even possible without stealing from some other group of people?

" if a man will not work, he shall not eat." Thessalonians 3:10


You are shifting the goalposts.

I'm not saying that health insurance is the most God-friendly approach to healthcare, but it's all we have now. Right now the choice is to work with the system to provide people health care, or not and therefore not care for the people that need health care (including the poor and elderly). Jesus would never be in favor of people being bankrupted because they can't afford health care, plain and simple.
     
besson3c
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Oct 22, 2017, 12:32 PM
 
Besides, using:

" if a man will not work, he shall not eat." Thessalonians 3:10
as an argument is bullshit. Sometimes being a victim of the American healthcare system just comes down to bad luck, plain and simple. Many victims are hard working virtuous individuals.
     
Paco500
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Oct 22, 2017, 12:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Could you cite in the bible where Jesus supports insurance companies being forced to do business with everyone who wants to, and where he supports them being forced to pay for their pre-existing conditions despite the fact the person hasn't felt the need to pay before they got the condition. Can you cite where Jesus supports the existence of insurance or any kind of 'impersonal' wealth redistribution at all? Can you cite math to show that what you're asking is even possible without stealing from some other group of people?

" if a man will not work, he shall not eat." Thessalonians 3:10
Jesus certinally didn't speak about heath insurance, but we do have these quotes you may find relevant.

Originally Posted by Acts 2: 44, 45
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things in common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Originally Posted by Acts 4:32-37
32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.

Originally Posted by Mathew 25: 31-46
31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Originally Posted by Romans 13:1-7
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.
4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing.
7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Originally Posted by Romans Luke 14:13, 14
13 But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you.
14 You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.

Originally Posted by Matthew 19:21
21 If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.

Originally Posted by Matthew 6:24
24 You cannot serve both God and Money.
Jesus was no capitalist- he was a dyed in the wool socialist. And he wants you to pay your taxes to support government programs inline with his ideals.
     
Chongo  (op)
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Oct 22, 2017, 01:05 PM
 
This is today’s Gospel reading.

“Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God,the things that are God’s”

Jesus is not a socialist. He asks did YOU do these things, not did you sit back and hope the government would do it? The passages you cite are the people doing those things of their own free will. Where does it say they sold their property and gave it to Caesar? They sold it and laid it at the feet of the Apostles AKA the Church, not at the feet of Caesar.

     
besson3c
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Oct 22, 2017, 03:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
This is today’s Gospel reading.

“Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God,the things that are God’s”

Jesus is not a socialist. He asks did YOU do these things, not did you sit back and hope the government would do it? The passages you cite are the people doing those things of their own free will. Where does it say they sold their property and gave it to Caesar? They sold it and laid it at the feet of the Apostles AKA the Church, not at the feet of Caesar.


So Jesus contradicts himself? Does this quote override all of Paco's?

Paco provided many, many more examples that suggests that even if you don't want to label Jesus as a socialist, he was all about helping the poor. This ideology you hold dear is completely flawed, as it seems to be based on this idea that welfare is theft. Do you think welfare is theft, or am I interpreting your beliefs incorrectly?

Welfare is not theft, welfare is our way of making societies function in a moral Jesus-y way. Theft is theft. Biblical quotes always seem incredibly flimsy when they try to explain modern inventions like this.
     
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Oct 22, 2017, 03:18 PM
 
#thingsjesusneversaid
     
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Oct 22, 2017, 03:36 PM
 
#thingsjesusneversaid

     
Chongo  (op)
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Oct 22, 2017, 04:32 PM
 
Word of wisdom from St Peter
2 Peter 3:15-18

15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
16 speaking of this * as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.
18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
     
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Oct 22, 2017, 08:20 PM
 
Something tells me Jesus would be ok with whichever organisation is going to most fairly distribute the resources and the help to those who need it. Typically this is never the churches these days, ask the likes of Joel Osteen, Ken Ham and Pat Robertson and that other dick with a fleet of private jets.

Did the Roman empire do welfare?

The attitude of giving to the needy through the church instead of government has less to do with religion and more to do with American distrust of government. Again, in light of many incidents throughout history, including recent ones, why anyone would find any church to be more trustworthy than an elected government who can be voted out of office every couple of years is beyond me.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Oct 22, 2017, 09:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Did the Roman empire do welfare?
They let you sell yourself into slavery, so there was always that.
     
el chupacabra
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Oct 23, 2017, 12:10 AM
 
The line between satanism and christianity is a subtle thing. It's generally taught in religious circles that satan wanted everything to be perfect; wanted the ability to do evil removed from us so we could all live in utopia bliss.

Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Acts 4:32-37
32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Yup this is what many Christians have been fighting for. The "choice" to do these things amongst ourselves with good people in small circles within our community. What you're missing is this "socialism" as you call it is voluntary and on an extremely small scale. Also if one of these people becomes out of line or fails to contribute according to his ability he can & will be booted from the club. This club would be church in the context you've cited. So at no point are we obligated to help people in the community who want all the benefits but dont want to do the hard work to be good people themselves or follow christ.

Thats completely different from having government force this on people. At no point in any of your citations would god want us joining the "socialist" club with the "pagans" (which are represented today with modern non-religious people). These are people who God sometimes ordered outright death upon in the past. Joining Jesus's "socialist" club means joining in these activities by your own free will. Christians do not believe in giving the benefits of this club to snarling people (who mock religion) just because they demand it, feel they are special & therefore entitled.

Mathew 25: 31-46
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Yup, engage in these by your own free will to others who are followers of, or at least open to Christ, not by force of government. This whole being a good person thing loses its value if it only comes from you because you are forced. The modern non-religious receiving these benefits aren't grateful of what they receive if it was taken by force - they think they deserve it anyway. The poor of Jesus's club were not demanding others pay for their needs & wants; if they had been they would not have received anything.

Romans 13:1-7
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.
7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
In other words dont be a terrorist and pay your taxes if you're using services of government. Not "communize the whole system and everyone's life".
Jesus was no capitalist- he was a dyed in the wool socialist. And he wants you to pay your taxes to support government programs inline with his ideals.
God would be a capitalist. Read the book of Ruth.

besson3c I'm not saying that health insurance is the most God-friendly approach to healthcare, but it's all we have now.
Insurance has broken everything it touches. Life insurance? Increased murder rate. Car insurance? Drives up auto repair costs - sometimes forces people to total out a car with nothing other than panel damage. Professional insurance? Allows bosses to order their employees to engage in corruption while not taking responsibility in the event finacial charges are brought against them. Allows lawsuits to reach preposterous amounts of money, again which the bosses have no intention of paying anyway since they're insured. Malpractice Insurance? Drives up medical prices. Medical insurance? Drives up prices; disconnects the patient from everything thats going on in billing; dumbs down the public. Insurance = satanic

Jesus would never be in favor of people being bankrupted because they can't afford health care, plain and simple.
Was no healthcare in Jesus's time; therefore healthcare is a luxury. That said good people get their healthcare taken care of. Good people save money. Good people have lots of friends and people who will cover their bills, because their good people. Every church I've been subsidizes medical bills for its members, recently a member got their whole house paid for by the church after a fire. Atheists have no clue this is routine in the church. We already doing what Jesus ordered us to do. People who dont have friends or church to take care of their medical and other misfortune bills, it could be because they're not very good people.

Welfare is not theft, welfare is our way of making societies function in a moral Jesus-y way. Theft is theft. Biblical quotes always seem incredibly flimsy when they try to explain modern inventions like this.
Is government not capable of theft? Theft is when something is taken from someone else without their consent. Thats exactly what welfare is. Welfare wouldnt be theft if it was only funded with donations to the government by people who believed in the system.

Did Jesus force anybody to give him money to heal people or something? Insurance companies have to pay the bills. They have to make sure they have enough money for it. That means the people who weren't paying in before their condition arose have to be denied. The ACA tried to fix this by forcing everyone to have insurance; yet it still failed.
the largest problem for Americans today is they eat too much food and dont have enough work to do to keep their heart healthy
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 23, 2017, 07:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
The line between satanism and christianity is a subtle thing. It's generally taught in religious circles that satan wanted everything to be perfect; wanted the ability to do evil removed from us so we could all live in utopia bliss.
What a douche.


Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Yup this is what many Christians have been fighting for. The "choice" to do these things amongst ourselves with good people in small circles within our community. What you're missing is this "socialism" as you call it is voluntary and on an extremely small scale. Also if one of these people becomes out of line or fails to contribute according to his ability he can & will be booted from the club. This club would be church in the context you've cited. So at no point are we obligated to help people in the community who want all the benefits but dont want to do the hard work to be good people themselves or follow christ.
Its refreshing to see someone admit it.


Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Thats completely different from having government force this on people. At no point in any of your citations would god want us joining the "socialist" club with the "pagans" (which are represented today with modern non-religious people). These are people who God sometimes ordered outright death upon in the past. Joining Jesus's "socialist" club means joining in these activities by your own free will. Christians do not believe in giving the benefits of this club to snarling people (who mock religion) just because they demand it, feel they are special & therefore entitled.
This makes me question the overlap between 'more devout' Christians and patriotism. It seems like they should all want to live in their own country with their own laws and not some pesky document granting freedoms to any old git.


Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Yup, engage in these by your own free will to others who are followers of, or at least open to Christ, not by force of government. This whole being a good person thing loses its value if it only comes from you because you are forced. The modern non-religious receiving these benefits aren't grateful of what they receive if it was taken by force - they think they deserve it anyway. The poor of Jesus's club were not demanding others pay for their needs & wants; if they had been they would not have received anything.

Its odd you assume everyone receiving welfare is demanding it and is ungrateful to receive it. Meanwhile the notion that someone might pretend to be godly and go through those various motions in order to get free stuff from the congregation is unthinkable to you? Thats how Christianity recruits in the third world, they literally bribe people to read the bible and attend church.


Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Insurance = satanic
Presumably not the perfectionist kind of Satanic?

At least we have a universal truth. Everyone hates insurance.


Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Was no healthcare in Jesus's time; therefore healthcare is a luxury. That said good people get their healthcare taken care of. Good people save money. Good people have lots of friends and people who will cover their bills, because their good people. Every church I've been subsidizes medical bills for its members, recently a member got their whole house paid for by the church after a fire. Atheists have no clue this is routine in the church. We already doing what Jesus ordered us to do. People who dont have friends or church to take care of their medical and other misfortune bills, it could be because they're not very good people.
Atheists are well aware of your conditional generosity thanks. Some of you are only there because of it. Sorry to break it to you.

Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Is government not capable of theft? Theft is when something is taken from someone else without their consent. Thats exactly what welfare is. Welfare wouldnt be theft if it was only funded with donations to the government by people who believed in the system.
Again, sounds like what you really want is CSA, the Christian State of America.


Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Did Jesus force anybody to give him money to heal people or something? Insurance companies have to pay the bills. They have to make sure they have enough money for it. That means the people who weren't paying in before their condition arose have to be denied. The ACA tried to fix this by forcing everyone to have insurance; yet it still failed.
Didn't Jesus heal people for free? Surely he should have charged them just to teach them the value of working hard and having savings? :/
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Oct 23, 2017, 10:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post

Didn't Jesus heal people for free? Surely he should have charged them just to teach them the value of working hard and having savings? :/
His price is belief.

Catholic Study Bible

Matthew 13:57-58

57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house."
58 And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.
Catholic Study Bible

Matthew 15:21-28

21 And Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Si'don.
22 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and cried, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely possessed by a demon."
23 But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying after us."
24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."*
25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me."
26 And he answered, "It is not fair to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
27 She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
28 Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.
@el chupacabra,something to keep in mind:
Catholic Study Bible

Matthew 7:6

6 "Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you.
( Last edited by Chongo; Oct 23, 2017 at 02:36 PM. )
     
besson3c
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Oct 23, 2017, 02:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Is government not capable of theft? Theft is when something is taken from someone else without their consent. Thats exactly what welfare is. Welfare wouldnt be theft if it was only funded with donations to the government by people who believed in the system.
I might respond to the rest of your post later, but I wanted to address this. I find this silly.

Is it theft to have to pay for a speeding ticket, or a ticket for not wearing your seatbelt? By living in a place, you agree to the rules used to govern that place, whether or not you agree with them. If you disagree with the rules, you are free to change them democratically, or move somewhere else. Otherwise, your consent is in the form of living in that place and agreeing to abide by its rules.

Welfare is part of the social contract. It is incredibly ironic to me that we are discussing Christian morals and some are making implications that welfare is a bad thing because it is theft. When are we going to talk about things we can do to care for our fellow men and women, like Jesus would have wanted?

Maybe Chongo is a heavy donator to all sorts of things, including the catholic hospital system. Many people don't donate to stuff because they don't feel it is worthwhile to donate a few dollars here and there, and it is also very time consuming to do so. Most people don't have the financial resources to donate large sums of money. So, what is the most effective way to help people at scale? What is more effective?

Let's cut to the root of this. If welfare was amazingly efficient, we never heard about people abusing it, we trusted our governments, etc. you probably wouldn't be complaining. The Christian solution is to fix things so that we can help people that really do need it. Yes, there is abuse, but any moral Christian should want to help people that legitimately need welfare - especially those with stories that would tug on our heart strings.

To just call welfare theft with implications that we should not be helping people with something that effectively replaces the services that welfare provides (and I'm talking about much more than Chongo's catholic hospitals), there is no way you can call yourself a Christian. Period. To say otherwise is completely delusional. Jesus was all about helping the poor. Obviously there needs to be practical limits and constraints to make society work for everybody, but that is a separate discussion. What it boils down to is would Jesus want to help people or not, and the answer will always be yes.

So, unless you have some system in mind for replacing our welfare systems and the services they provide, do shut up and re-read your bibles.

I'm terribly amused that I, as practically an atheist, has to school you clowns on what the bible is about.
( Last edited by besson3c; Oct 23, 2017 at 02:45 PM. )
     
subego
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Oct 23, 2017, 03:30 PM
 
The fundamental right-wing argument against welfare is the benefit society loses from taking the money out of the economy for it is larger than the benefit it gains.

This is generally framed by the left as "the left cares about people and the right doesn't", which gets the right behaving even more snotty than they're inclined to be naturally.
     
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Oct 23, 2017, 03:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
The "choice" to do these things amongst ourselves with good people in small circles within our community.
Originally Posted by Acts 4:32-37
32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Interesting. I didn't realise multitude had different meaning in biblical time.
     
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Oct 23, 2017, 04:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The fundamental right-wing argument against welfare is the benefit society loses from taking the money out of the economy for it is larger than the benefit it gains.

This is generally framed by the left as "the left cares about people and the right doesn't", which gets the right behaving even more snotty than they're inclined to be naturally.
It is framed that way but not loudly. Its the quietest framing in the Universe. I think it a hundred times more often than I say it. It makes me wonder if the same is true of the right. That they think it (and even know it), but they don't like it when we say it. As with numerous other things.

Ultimately this is what left/right politics in America appears to break down into. Its us/me.

This in itself doesn't have to be philosophically intractable, but the follow up arguments for the right involve having more personal control over how others are helped. The right expects the left to trust that they will do the right things when sharing the wealth, but as El Chup has already stated, they won't. They will only help those who agree with them and follow their rules as part of their smaller communities.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Oct 23, 2017, 04:12 PM
 
The Douay Rheims and KJ, and others use multitude. The RSV, NAB and others use company.
     
subego
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Oct 23, 2017, 04:14 PM
 
NAS Bible is best Bible.
     
Chongo  (op)
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Oct 23, 2017, 04:24 PM
 
NAS uses congregation
     
andi*pandi
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Oct 23, 2017, 04:44 PM
 
2000-year-old game of telephone, I'm telling you.
     
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Oct 23, 2017, 05:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
2000-year-old game of telephone, I'm telling you.
Not really, it’s more like the method of translating 2000 year old Greek manuscripts.
https://www.catholic.com/tract/bible-translations-guide
     
besson3c
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Oct 23, 2017, 05:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The fundamental right-wing argument against welfare is the benefit society loses from taking the money out of the economy for it is larger than the benefit it gains.
Yeah, I think you're right... The usual "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" rhetoric, which is romantic and sounds great, but doesn't really account for people with legitimate needs that will never be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and the fact that healthcare now is completely out-of-control, and there are people with such horrible luck that simply can't get ahead of their unpredictable expenses.

Other than that the argument is perfect...

Sorry, I realize you are just playing devil's advocate, but going back to the "breaking patterns" thread this is another example of where sometimes people have to approach these romantic notions and the way the world ought to work with the way the world actually does work, without feeling hyper-defensive.
     
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Oct 23, 2017, 05:30 PM
 
^ to Chongo's post:
Yes, and many interpretations. That article is full of the variations, and only you choosing to believe the one the Church says is The One makes it easy for you.

The NAS reads: "None of you shall approach any blood relative of his to uncover nakedness. . . . You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife; it is your father’s nakedness. The nakedness of your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether born at home or born outside, their nakedness you shall not uncover. The nakedness of your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter, their nakedness you shall not uncover; for their nakedness is yours."

The NIV reads: "No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. . . . Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father. Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere. Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you."
The NAS is poetic, but yes a bit cryptic. Regarding the last line "their nakedness is yours." I could assume due to patriarchy it means "of your family" but I'd like to also think it means, "yours to protect." The NIV version ends "that would dishonor you" which seems to be more about you and less about harming innocent members of your family.
     
 
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