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Atheist · Apr 11, 2008, 12:44 PM

With tax season upon us (U.S. citizens that is), I find myself resenting more and more the fact that I'm expected to pay taxes to a country I don't live in and probably will never again.

I get the fact that as a U.S. citizen, I'm entitled to certain things, and that I'm still able to take advantage of them. Because of my own personal situation (of which I've whined about several times before), I've chosen to leave the U.S. but can't comprehend why I'm still expected to pay thousands and thousands of dollars to the U.S. to which I'm receiving no immediate benefit. (Although I live outside the U.S., I do 1099 (independent contractor) work for a company in the U.S. and as such all my income is reported to the IRS and I'm expected to pay full taxes).

I wouldn't feel too bad paying a reduced tax to "maintain" my citizenship, but I really hate giving them all this money for nothing. I'm not trying to eliminate my tax burden to any one country, and don't wish to deprive them their due, I just think it's lame that they won't allow me to live in my own country with my non-U.S. partner yet still expect me to give them 30+% of my income.

Am I just being whiney?

turtle777 · Apr 11, 2008, 12:49 PM

Are you paying taxes to another government as well, or is this ALL the tax you pay ?

You shouldn't get taxed double, but other than that, I don't see how it's unfair.

-t

Atheist · Apr 11, 2008, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

Are you paying taxes to another government as well, or is this ALL the tax you pay ?

I presently have no tax burden to my country of residence. Which I why I stated I'm not interested in totally eliminating my tax burden to the U.S.

Originally Posted by turtle777

You shouldn't get taxed double, but other than that, I don't see how it's unfair.
-t

My issues lies in the fact that the U.S. government has effectively banished me by not allowing me to live there with the man to which I've chosen to spend my life. I would give almost anything to be able to live in the States. And I'm more than willing to pay my fare share in taxes while living there.

MacosNerd · Apr 11, 2008, 01:04 PM

Why not change your citizenship to the country you are living in

turtle777 · Apr 11, 2008, 01:07 PM

*shrug*

Since I don't know all the background, it's hard to comment.

If you think it's impossible for you to ever live in the US again, why don't you become a citizen of the country you're in ?

-t

Atheist · Apr 11, 2008, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by MacosNerd

Why not change your citizenship to the country you are living in

Not trying to be snarky, but I doubt you have much experience with immigration. Gaining residence in another country is VERY difficult, citizenship even harder. Unless you want to live in Belize or Costa Rica. (Yeah they sound nice at first, but believe me, the Third World isn't all it's cracked up to be.)

I'm presently in the Netherlands Antilles and attempting to immigrate here as a gay couple, further complicated by the fact that we are from different countries (my partner from a Third World country), makes it virtually impossible. As it stands now we have to leave every three months for a week or so and hope that they'll let us back in when we return. I've already attempted to get a residency visa to stay in my partner's home country and was denied. They laughed and asked me why an American would want to live there. Telling them my gay partner was from their country was NOT an option.

peeb · Apr 11, 2008, 01:13 PM

Your situation is dreadful. On the one hand you are a victim of terrible discrimination, and on the other of an oppressive overreaching tax system that is the only one in the developed world that thinks it can tax people beyond it's sovereign borders.

TETENAL · Apr 11, 2008, 01:13 PM

I believe this is an exemption of the US tax system. Other countries do not tax their citizens when they live and pay taxes in another country. So the solution for you would be to change citizenship to the country you are currently living in. Shouldn't be an issue if do not plan to return to the US anyway.

Atheist · Apr 11, 2008, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

*shrug*

Since I don't know all the background, it's hard to comment.

If you think it's impossible for you to ever live in the US again, why don't you become a citizen of the country you're in ?

-t

The U.S. doesn't recognize dual-citizenship (for tax reasons). No matter where I lived, I would be liable to them for tax on any income I earned. (Certain deductions apply based on taxes paid to country of residence and living expenses, however none of that applies to me now.) In 2006, the U.S. gov't retroactively raised taxes on citizens living abroad.

peeb · Apr 11, 2008, 01:16 PM

TETENAL, you're wrong on a couple of counts. He has already explained he can't even get a residence permit for the country he was living in, and secondly, 'changing' citizenship is not how it works. He could renounce his US citizenship, which would be the only way to make this work, but then he would have to have at least one other citizenship, which he doesn't have.

peeb · Apr 11, 2008, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Atheist

The U.S. doesn't recognize dual-citizenship (for tax reasons).

Wrong. The US has no opinion on people holding additional citizenships, that does not affect US citizens obligations to pay tax.

Originally Posted by Atheist

No matter where I lived, I would be liable to them for tax on any income I earned. (Certain deductions apply based on taxes paid to country of residence and living expenses, however none of that applies to me now.) In 2006, the U.S. gov't retroactively raised taxes on citizens living abroad.

Correct.

MacosNerd · Apr 11, 2008, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Atheist

Not trying to be snarky, but I doubt you have much experience with immigration. Gaining residence in another country is VERY difficult, citizenship even harder.

I have no experience and I wasn't trying to be coy. If you hate to pay taxes and were not living in the US and never planned to come back. The next logical step would be to gain citizenship in another country but as I affirmed your supposition, I have no idea how hard it is.

peeb · Apr 11, 2008, 01:19 PM

You know, have you seen a tax expert that specializes in expatriates? They can often get your tax down to a much better level.

TETENAL · Apr 11, 2008, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by peeb

He has already explained he can't even get a residence permit for the country he was living in,

Then he is not living in that country; he is visiting it.

peeb · Apr 11, 2008, 01:22 PM

Well, you can split hairs, but I have lived for years in countries without formal residency.

Atheist · Apr 11, 2008, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by peeb

Your situation is dreadful. On the one hand you are a victim of terrible discrimination, and on the other of an oppressive overreaching tax system that is the only one in the developed world that thinks it can tax people beyond it's sovereign borders.

Yeah.. it's kinda sucky. And thanks for your comments. I'm really not looking for sympathy as much as affirmation that the U.S. gov't is totally wrong on this.

We are still working on the Canada thing. I've just started shopping my resume around. I've got 23 years in the IT biz so I'm hoping that gives me an advantage. Spoke with an immigration consultant in Canada a while ago, it was mostly positive although he was a little concerned that my partner had been denied a student visa to Canada last year (for no other reason than that he's from the Third World and they didn't believe he'd leave when he was done studying). He says that may play a role in future visa application considerations.

turtle777 · Apr 11, 2008, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Atheist

The U.S. doesn't recognize dual-citizenship (for tax reasons).

Can't be. I'm currently in the process of getting dual citizenship, and the US has no issues with it. Germany is very strict, so I had to apply for an exepmtion, which I got.
The US doesn't care if you hold other citizenships.

Originally Posted by Atheist

No matter where I lived, I would be liable to them for tax on any income I earned

Only if you kept your US citizenship.

If you were able to get a different citizenship and renounced your US citizenship, you wouldn't be liable for tax anymore. But I doubt it would get much better from a tax perspective. Most countries have higher taxes than the US.

-t

Atheist · Apr 11, 2008, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Then he is not living in that country; he is visiting it.

That's a very true statement. I'm basically a man with no formal home. I've been "visiting" the countries I've lived in for almost three years now. It's nerve-wracking to say the least.

Atheist · Apr 11, 2008, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

The US doesn't care if you hold other citizenships.
-t

Which is exactly what I said (only in slightly different words).

peeb · Apr 11, 2008, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Atheist

Which is exactly what I said (only in slightly different words).

OK, sorry - I thought you were implying that the US had some opinion on multiple citizenships that related to the tax code.

Atheist · Apr 11, 2008, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by peeb

You know, have you seen a tax expert that specializes in expatriates? They can often get your tax down to a much better level.

Technically, I'm not an expatriate (from a tax perspective). I earn my money from a U.S. company and am just "visiting" the country I live in.

peeb · Apr 11, 2008, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Atheist

Technically, I'm not an expatriate (from a tax perspective). I earn my money from a U.S. company and am just "visiting" the country I live in.

Are you sure that is true from a US tax perspective (note that that may not be the same from the perspective of the country you are 'visiting'). US tax law determines residency, at least in part, based on the number of days you spend on US soil.

analogika · Apr 11, 2008, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

Can't be. I'm currently in the process of getting dual citizenship, and the US has no issues with it. Germany is very strict, so I had to apply for an exepmtion, which I got.

Wow! On what grounds (if I may ask)?

turtle777 · Apr 11, 2008, 01:32 PM

Well, as long as your source of income is in the US, you'd always pay US taxes, AFAIK.

Even being of a different citizenship wouldn't help.

-t

peeb · Apr 11, 2008, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

Well, as long as your source of income is in the US, you'd always pay US taxes, AFAIK.
Even being of a different citizenship wouldn't help.
-t

Erm, it's a little more complicated than that. He should see an expatriate tax advisor.

turtle777 · Apr 11, 2008, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by analogika

Wow! On what grounds (if I may ask)?

Two reasons I gave in my Antrag auf Genehmigung zur Beibehaltung der deutschen Staatsangehörigkeit - LOL

* tax disadvantage in case of death of my wife (a US citizen) - it could result in a partial or complete double taxation if I inherited our estate as a German citizen living in the US
* disadvantages for my wife's career - she was denied a job at a US government job that required a certain security clearance.

-t

turtle777 · Apr 11, 2008, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by peeb

Erm, it's a little more complicated than that. He should see an expatriate tax advisor.

I'm NOT a tax expert, but I have to deal with corporate expats from my company that work overseas.

They STILL pay US taxes, but they don't have to pay FULL taxes for these amounts in their host country. That's (to my knowledge) the best you can get out of it.

-t

peeb · Apr 11, 2008, 01:44 PM

I agree that he probably can't get out of paying anything, but I think from what he has said that he may not be getting the best deal he can.

analogika · Apr 11, 2008, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

Two reasons I gave in my Antrag auf Genehmigung zur Beibehaltung der deutschen Staatsangehörigkeit - LOL

* tax disadvantage in case of death of my wife (a US citizen) - it could result in a partial or complete double taxation if I inherited our estate as a German citizen living in the US
* disadvantages for my wife's career - she was denied a job at a US government job that required a certain security clearance.

That explains why you'd need a U.S. citizenship, but AFAICS, it doesn't provide any grounds whatsoever to be able to maintain simultaneous German citizenship...?

peeb · Apr 11, 2008, 01:47 PM

How would the Germans even know? It seems odd that they would get worked up about this?

Atheist · Apr 11, 2008, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by peeb

I agree that he probably can't get out of paying anything, but I think from what he has said that he may not be getting the best deal he can.

You're probably right. I think I'm just fed up with the whole situation and there's no simple solution. I used to think that a Dem President and Congress would be the solution but at this point I have little hope. I think it's going to be many many years before the U.S. brings their immigration law (with regard to same sex couples) in sync with the rest of the Western world.

turtle777 · Apr 11, 2008, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by analogika

That explains why you'd need a U.S. citizenship, but AFAICS, it doesn't provide any grounds whatsoever to be able to maintain simultaneous German citizenship...?

Indeed, you are right.

My reasons for KEEPING the German citizenship were:

* family and friends in Germany
* working for a German company
* financial ties to Germany (e.g. bank accounts)

Seemed to be enough.

-t

peeb · Apr 11, 2008, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Atheist

You're probably right. I think I'm just fed up with the whole situation and there's no simple solution. I used to think that a Dem President and Congress would be the solution but at this point I have little hope. I think it's going to be many many years before the U.S. brings their immigration law (with regard to same sex couples) in sync with the rest of the Western world.

Yes - it sucks - I think I've said this before , but I have friends in very similar situations to you. They've had luck with the Canada route. One back door is to apply for college in Canada, and then get a job and convert the visa.

turtle777 · Apr 11, 2008, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by peeb

How would the Germans even know? It seems odd that they would get worked up about this?

I know, I asked myself the same question.
THEORETICALLY, you migh be able to hide it that you have two citizenships.

However, I didn't want to risk it. Germany could revoke your German citizenship if you had another one w/o having gone through the exemption process.

-t

Atheist · Apr 11, 2008, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by peeb

Yes - it sucks - I think I've said this before , but I have friends in very similar situations to you. They've had luck with the Canada route. One back door is to apply for college in Canada, and then get a job and convert the visa.

Yeah... tried the college thing... didn't work. Citizens of Third World countries are shunned all over the world. It's a real shame.

subego · Apr 11, 2008, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by peeb

They've had luck with the Canada route.

The people I know in this situation considered seeking political asylum there.

analogika · Apr 11, 2008, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

Indeed, you are right.

My reasons for KEEPING the German citizenship were:

* family and friends in Germany
* working for a German company
* financial ties to Germany (e.g. bank accounts)

Seemed to be enough.

That makes sense.

The new dual-citizenship laws make this sort of thing MUCH easier than it was back when I could have had the chance.

peeb · Apr 11, 2008, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Atheist

Yeah... tried the college thing... didn't work. Citizens of Third World countries are shunned all over the world. It's a real shame.

Dude. Sorry - good luck with finding a solution.

Atheist · Apr 11, 2008, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by subego

The people I know in this situation considered seeking political asylum there.

And did they have any luck?

turtle777 · Apr 11, 2008, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by analogika

That makes sense.

The new dual-citizenship laws make this sort of thing MUCH easier than it was back when I could have had the chance.

Yes, this is true. At least ONE good thing that came out of the SPD

-t

analogika · Apr 11, 2008, 02:19 PM

I'm pretty sure the impetus came from the Greens.

subego · Apr 11, 2008, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Atheist

And did they have any luck?

I didn't get the impression there was any problem with it, but one of them has EU citizenship, so they decided to go that route.

I don't want to get your hopes up, but it's probably worth a phone call or two.

subego · 10:49 PM

Looking at it a little more closely, it looks like Canada is hesitant to grant refugee status to US citizens. I guess they don't want to piss off the mothership.

However, you may want to look into immigrating to Canada for reasons not having to do with orientation, and then you could get your partner Canadian citizenship through marriage.

Here's the government website:

Immigrating to Canada: Skilled workers and professionals

el chupacabra · Apr 11, 2008, 10:58 PM

lololololololololol!!!! You need to understand the real point of taxes. It doesn't matter if you live here or not because the taxes were never meant to pay for any service to YOU anyway.

What do any of us get from paying taxes to the US? All we ask for is a few laws and roads and yet only 3% of actually goes to those things. The rest is just given away to people who don't work, or to an oppressive military representing the corporate agenda around the world.

Look at it that way and maybe it wont eat at you so much.... In other words, physically being in the US wouldn't get you any more return on your taxes...

el chupacabra · Apr 11, 2008, 11:06 PM

Oh by the way .. . are you set up as an independent contractor in the US or your country? If you set yourself up as an independent contractor in another country then have the US company hire your company, then you might be able to avoid some taxes.

edit:

ok I just saw... you can make up to 80,000 in the US and live outside the US and maintain citizenship and not pay any taxes.. Anything over 80 you are taxed on.

Chaos Theory · Apr 12, 2008, 02:13 AM

You are living in The Kingdom of the Netherlands. Apply for refugee status because of your sexuality and the persecution you are constantly confronted with in the U.S of A. And get married, if you're not yet, in Sint Maarten.

MacosNerd · Apr 12, 2008, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Chaos Theory

Apply for refugee status because of your sexuality and the persecution you are constantly confronted with in the U.S of A. And get married, if you're not yet, in Sint Maarten.

There is no organized persecution, especially from the state, so I doubt that this is an actual viable option. Many states have allowed civill unions and in Massachusetts gay couples can get married. That being the case trying to prove persecution is difficult at best.

Mastrap · Apr 12, 2008, 07:27 AM

If you apply for permanent residency in Canada, with your skills you should have no problem getting in as a skilled immigrant, you can then sponsor your partner to join you. Canada accepts same sex partnerships.

MacosNerd · Apr 12, 2008, 09:11 AM

I'm curious as to why someone from a third-world country is causing you not enter into the US. What country is he from that is causing so much issues?

Eriamjh · Apr 12, 2008, 05:51 PM

You lived here, drove on US roads, enjoyed US protection from police, the gov't, etc. Why not pay taxes?