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Election 2020 (Page 8)
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Doc HM
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Jan 6, 2021, 03:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Trump supporters have stormed the Capitol Building. Jesus christ.

Militia members have gathered outside the Georgia Capitol. Brad Raffensperger and senior staff have been escorted out to safety.
No honestly it's fine. Republican politicians going along with this is ALL fine. No harm to like you know, democracy, or anything important.

The fact that a stupidly large number of Republican voters still believe the election was fraudulent is entirely and completely unrelated to the showboating and blatant career posturing from politicians who you would have said knew better but obviously don't

It's literally not a problem that the US is now a banana republic.

Good luck y'all!
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Thorzdad
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Jan 6, 2021, 03:58 PM
 
I just hope this can be cleaned up without, y’know, bodies on the ground. The traitors don’t need “martyrs” to gin-up more support with.
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Thorzdad
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Jan 6, 2021, 04:02 PM
 
There’s a report now that the request for the National Guard to be deployed has been denied by Pentagon officials.
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reader50
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Jan 6, 2021, 04:05 PM
 
Many Republicans argued that Black Lives Matter protestors were "rioters". Even though it wasn't the protestors who vandalized - but criminals who took advantage of the circumstances.

Today, Trump protestors have broken into the Capitol Building. Reached the doors of the Senate chamber, and breached the House chamber. After firing gun shots into the House chamber.

I do not believe those people are "protesters" any longer. They're clearly rioters. If memory serves, the last time the chambers were overrun was in 1812, when the British briefly overran Washington DC.

btw, tear gas has been used in the Rotunda. I believe that's a first. Members of Congress were given gas masks in advance.
     
Brien
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Jan 6, 2021, 04:10 PM
 
And 14 days to go to boot.
     
reader50
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Jan 6, 2021, 04:16 PM
 
Trump protestors/rioters have now breached the Senate chamber as well. The doors were previously locked, so they must have broken the doors.
The Trump supporters storming the Capitol are now walking on the Senate floor, after the vice-president and lawmakers who were in the chamber were evacuated amid the electoral college vote certification.
     
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Jan 6, 2021, 04:19 PM
 
I wonder if any of the “I’m going to contest the EC results” Republicans is actually going to demonstrate any cojones and go on record as saying that these invading protestors are threatening the core of our democracy. Sort of the way Donny has all along. And the way the “we’re contesting” crowd was too.

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Jan 6, 2021, 04:27 PM
 
Apparently, the D.C. National Guard is the only National Guard unit, out of all of the 54 states and territories, which reports only to the President. That kind of explains why they aren’t coming to aid, I think.
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Jan 6, 2021, 04:33 PM
 
Source?

This is from 2 days ago:

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/p...or-urges-calm/

According to a U.S. defense official, Bowser put in a request on New Year’s Eve to have Guard members on the streets from Tuesday to Thursday to help with the protests. The official said the additional forces will be used for traffic control and other assistance but they will not be armed or wearing body armor. Congress is meeting this week to certify the Electoral College results, and Trump has refused to concede while whipping up support for protests.

Some 340 D.C. National Guard members will be activated, with about 115 on duty in the streets at any given time, said the defense official, who provided details on condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations. The official said Guard members will be used to set up traffic control points around the city and to stand with district police officers at all the city’s Metro stops. Contee said Guard troops will also be used for some crowd management.

“Some of our intelligence certainly suggests there will be increased crowd sizes,” said Contee.

D.C. police have posted signs throughout downtown warning that carrying any sort of firearm is illegal and Contee asked area residents to warn authorities of anyone who might be armed.

Because D.C. does not have a governor, the designated commander of the city’s National Guard is Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy. Any D.C. requests for Guard deployments have to be approved by him.
     
subego
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Jan 6, 2021, 04:47 PM
 
Two updates. No idea of their veracity.

The National Guard was called up a few minutes ago.

Pence unfollowed Trump.
     
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Jan 6, 2021, 04:51 PM
 


And I though 2021 was off to a good start.
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Brien
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Jan 6, 2021, 04:57 PM
 
Martial Law incoming?
     
Thorzdad
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Jan 6, 2021, 05:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Two updates. No idea of their veracity.

The National Guard was called up a few minutes ago.

Pence unfollowed Trump.
Is that the DC Guard? The Virginia guard has been sent in by its governor.
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subego
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Jan 6, 2021, 05:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Is that the DC Guard? The Virginia guard has been sent in by its governor.
The last update I heard, again, no idea of the veracity, is that Trump called up the DCNG.
     
subego
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Jan 6, 2021, 05:08 PM
 
I’m also hearing theorizing that Trump needs to get a lid put on this quick. There are still viable vectors for him to be forcibly removed from office if he doesn’t.

Congress is very mad at him right now.
     
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Jan 6, 2021, 05:16 PM
 
It seems that Pelosi requested the DC national guard, but that his needs to be approved by the DoD, and they said no. This resulted in Virginia sending in the national guard, which caused Trump to reverse position.
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Thorzdad
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Jan 6, 2021, 05:25 PM
 
NYT reports that a pipe bomb was found at the RNC. That’s right, the RNC. There are also reports that an IED type device was found on the capitol grounds.
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subego
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Jan 6, 2021, 05:53 PM
 
Another Clown World update.

Pence’s Twitter banner is now a pic of Biden and Harris.

This is verified. I just looked.
     
subego
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Jan 6, 2021, 06:02 PM
 
FBI SWAT appears to have arrived.
     
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Jan 6, 2021, 06:03 PM
 
The word elsewhere is that it is actually Pence and his wife. I can’t tell with this angle.

However, Pence appears to have unfollowed Trump.
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subego
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Jan 6, 2021, 06:16 PM
 
That makes more sense.
     
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Jan 6, 2021, 06:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
It seems that Pelosi requested the DC national guard, but that his needs to be approved by the DoD, and they said no. This resulted in Virginia sending in the national guard, which caused Trump to reverse position.
According to this, Trump did not reverse his position. The DoD called out the DC national guard on Pence’s authority. JFC. If the cabinet isn’t discussing the 25th Amendment, they should.
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Jan 6, 2021, 07:25 PM
 
Ilhan Omar is apparently already drawing up another impeachment.
     
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Jan 6, 2021, 07:36 PM
 
Impeachment is one thing - I am of the opinion that he should have been convicted last time - but my point is more that if it is true that Pence is giving orders to the armed forces, he is effectively acting as the president. If so, it should be formalized with a declaration to Congress.
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Jan 6, 2021, 07:50 PM
 
Before this happened, I was of the opinion that another impeachment hearing (for Trump’s call with Raffensberger) was a waste of time since we are so close to Biden’s inauguration anyway. Now I’m reconsidering, it’s time to stop this, it is not a game.
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Jan 6, 2021, 09:52 PM
 
Is it possible for the states to recall their congressional representatives? Because right now, “objecting to counting legal votes” = “inciting violence” in a lot of minds. Seems like that should be the next step for a few of these senators.
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The Final Shortcut
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Jan 6, 2021, 10:55 PM
 
Hah.

Still not a big deal, I assume?
     
Thorzdad
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Jan 6, 2021, 11:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Is it possible for the states to recall their congressional representatives? Because right now, “objecting to counting legal votes” = “inciting violence” in a lot of minds. Seems like that should be the next step for a few of these senators.
I believe some states allow for a recall vote. Not many, though.
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Thorzdad
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Jan 6, 2021, 11:33 PM
 
Congress started the session back up. Everyone is taking the opportunity to make five-minute speeches. Even after the events of the day, some are still repeating all the “stolen election” bullshit that led up to what happened today. And, apparently the GOP company line now is that it was all an Antifa action.
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Jan 7, 2021, 04:43 AM
 
It is over. Congress has tabulated all of the votes and confirmed Biden's victory. Most Senate votes were 93-7 or 94-6, but there was a good chunk of votes for rejecting in the House. I guess they were more worried about primary challengers?
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reader50
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Jan 7, 2021, 05:25 AM
 
Only the Arizona and Pennsylvania votes were challenged and debated. House Reps tried to challenge several others, but as no Senator signed on for those, nothing happened. Trump's mob reduced enthusiasm for grandstanding.

btw, the Senate votes did not total to 100. One Georgia seat is vacant until Ossoff is certified by Georgia, then sworn in to the Senate.
     
Nerkito
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Jan 7, 2021, 08:03 AM
 
Seems like it's sorted out for now.
     
Laminar
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Jan 7, 2021, 09:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
And, apparently the GOP company line now is that it was all an Antifa action.
There were plenty of accusations being thrown around during the BLM protests about right-wing instigators or police strategically putting bricks around. It seems like it's standard fare to blame the violence on the other side.

But at least in this case, there's a direct line from the violence to Trump, so believing his followers were solely responsible for the violence isn't hard.
     
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Jan 7, 2021, 09:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
As for the apocalypse, I see some manner of shit going down this week if Biden wins or in January if Trump tries to not leave.
Ah, there it is.
     
Thorzdad
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Jan 7, 2021, 12:37 PM
 
Anyone paying attention for the past four years could have reasonably predicted this happening. Hell, he started down this path as soon as he was elected, lying about the popular vote. As soon as he posted that "wild time" tweet in November, inviting his rabble to DC, anyone with a single brain cell should have known what was about to happen, and the Capitol should have been surrounded by security.

I was reading a piece over on Business Insider, interviewing security officials from NATO, and they are of the opinion that there had to have been collusion with higher-ups in federal law enforcement for it to have been so successful.

The BI report.
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MacNNFamous
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Jan 7, 2021, 02:40 PM
 
Awww. They only shot 4 of them.
     
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Jan 7, 2021, 03:06 PM
 
they only shot 1, one tazed themselves, one was a heart attack... and one woman was trampled by fellow rioters?
rubber bullets should have been flying.
( Last edited by andi*pandi; Jan 7, 2021 at 10:39 PM. )
     
ghporter
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Jan 7, 2021, 03:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Another Clown World update.

Pence’s Twitter banner is now a pic of Biden and Harris.

This is verified. I just looked.
I just looked too. Wow. Of course there’s a 99.999999999999% chance that this is just Mike posturing for 2024.

At this point, it seems to me that ANY individual who sided with Trump on anything substantive (and in particular in objecting to Electoral College votes) has essentially committed political suicide. Pence, who could have taken action on a lot of things as President Pro Tem of the Senate (among other ways) included.

It ones down to the “movement conservative” concept. These are oligarchs using the label “Republican”, who insist that only they, by virtue of their fancy/expensive colleges and hereditary wealth, are smart enough to run things. Of course, if they were so smart, shouldn’t they have been able to manage/direct the thugs to do something more “useful”, like stealing the Electoral College ballot boxes? Yeah, that’s what I thought...

We can trace a lot of things to these folks, including the whole idea of insisting on standardized testing in schools - which drove “teaching the tests” to ensure continued funding, as opposed to actually teaching kids anything at all. Why are young adults so clueless? Look at how their public education prepared them for adulthood. No real Civics education, not even a simple class (like the one I had in 8th grade) in “how to manage a check book, file taxes, and generally take care of yourself as an individual.” I do NOT think it’s a coincidence that so few young people actually understand any part of government, or finance, or anything else, for that matter.

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Thorzdad
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Jan 7, 2021, 04:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
At this point, it seems to me that ANY individual who sided with Trump on anything substantive (and in particular in objecting to Electoral College votes) has essentially committed political suicide. Pence, who could have taken action on a lot of things as President Pro Tem of the Senate (among other ways) included.
I dunno. You might want to browse this YouGov poll taken Wednesday evening, if you want to get a feel for where Republicans stand on the events of yesterday. I predict Hawley and his fellow conspirators will breeze to re-election when the time comes.

As for Pence, he was dead to Republicans the minute he sent out that letter saying he was going to actually follow the Constitution.
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Laminar
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Jan 7, 2021, 05:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
At this point, it seems to me that ANY individual who sided with Trump on anything substantive (and in particular in objecting to Electoral College votes) has essentially committed political suicide.
Maybe to Republican leadership, but not in the slightest to Republican voters. They just whatabout the BLM riots and equate those to breaking into the nation's capital, armed, in order to disrupt and hopefully prevent the democratic process. It's all my team vs. your team, and Trump is that shitty point guard that got them a championship in 2016. They have no use for him now but siding with him won't hurt anyone's standing.

Going forward, anyone that voted for him can just talk about how they didn't really want to do it but boy Trump sure knew how to get stuff done and at least he was way better than Killery/Sleepy Joe/etc.
     
Thorzdad
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Jan 7, 2021, 05:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Maybe to Republican leadership, but not in the slightest to Republican voters.
I think he’s ok with leadership, too. WaPo had brief report that Trump made a quick phone call this morning to a scheduled private meeting of top RNC people, and he was applauded.
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Jan 7, 2021, 05:47 PM
 
The nice thing about this revolt is that the idiots kept posting to social media, so they’re all easily identifiable. Ars casually named several of the people in the photos.

As for crimes... it has to be at least B&E for everyone in the Capitol, and probably Seditious conspiracy for anyone with a gun.

As for the congresspeople who kept up the protests... I get the House. Most seats are safe for a party, so their focus is on the next primary. Since a majority of republicans still support Trump, it is probably a good bet to protest there. As for the senators, I would guess that Cruz and Hawley were too far gone to back down. They’re probably both trying to stake a claim to the conservative wing for 2024 and figure that having some Trumpists along will help them in early states.

I don’t know anything about Hawley, but Cruz has to be up shit creek with no paddle. He got dangerously close to losing in 2018, and GOP always does better in midterm elections. He might very well lose his seat in 2024 if the trend is blue, given that Texas is trending that way. The smart thing for the GOP to do is replace him with someone a hair more moderate, and with this stunt, he has to be worried about a challenger from the center. Maybe a presidential run is a safer bet for him.
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subego
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Jan 7, 2021, 05:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Anyone paying attention for the past four years could have reasonably predicted this happening. Hell, he started down this path as soon as he was elected, lying about the popular vote. As soon as he posted that "wild time" tweet in November, inviting his rabble to DC, anyone with a single brain cell should have known what was about to happen, and the Capitol should have been surrounded by security.

I was reading a piece over on Business Insider, interviewing security officials from NATO, and they are of the opinion that there had to have been collusion with higher-ups in federal law enforcement for it to have been so successful.

The BI report.
I agree it was too easy, but feel there stupidity explanations. Chiefly, they weren’t expecting it because the right wing is pro-cop, and before yesterday, seemed only to get out of line with Antifa.

If we want to get conspiratorial about it though, qui bono?

The Democrats have just had, in the words of Chuck Schumer, a “Pearl Harbor”.

The vast majority of Republicans in Congress just off-ramped themselves from Trump.

The Trump faithful are pretty demoralized at the moment...

Faithful: We have taken the stronghold of the enemy at great risk to ourselves. What should we do glorious leader?

Glorious Leader: GO HOME.
     
subego
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Jan 7, 2021, 05:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I just looked too. Wow. Of course there’s a 99.999999999999% chance that this is just Mike posturing for 2024.
It’s definitely Pence and his wife, and has been there since November.

Total screw-up on my part.
     
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Jan 7, 2021, 06:01 PM
 
Make of this what you will...reports are that Trump will be going to Camp David for the weekend. This a really odd move. He famously loathes Camp David, and I don’t think he’s actually been there over the past four years (maybe once?) It has the advantage of being relatively remote and really easy to secure, though. And, it’s not in DC. Nor is it a public facility like Mar-a-Lago.
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Jan 7, 2021, 07:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
It’s definitely Pence and his wife, and has been there since November.

Total screw-up on my part.
It looks SO much like Biden & Harris at their victory rally. Wow.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Doc HM
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Jan 7, 2021, 07:32 PM
 
Hahaha Facebook says POTUS can't have their FB page back until an actual adult is in charge.
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Jan 7, 2021, 07:43 PM
 
Surely storming a government building, while the government is in session with guns and bombs is textbook terrorism? And Trump could be charged with conspiracy to commit terrorism for his part. One of Glenn Beck's "reporters" went along for the ride. It would amuse me if he was also hauled up on terror charges. I don't think you can justify a ride along with domestic terrorists. Don't you have a duty to report a crime you know is going to happen?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Jan 7, 2021, 08:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
As for crimes... it has to be at least B&E for everyone in the Capitol, and probably Seditious conspiracy for anyone with a gun.
So far it’s been unlawful entry, resisting arrest, assault, and firearms violations (carrying pistol without a license and unregistered ammunition). Mostly unlawful entry.
     
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Jan 7, 2021, 08:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I just looked too. Wow. Of course there’s a 99.999999999999% chance that this is just Mike posturing for 2024.
I checked, and I thought it was a picture of him and his wife from the campaign trail.
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
At this point, it seems to me that ANY individual who sided with Trump on anything substantive (and in particular in objecting to Electoral College votes) has essentially committed political suicide. Pence, who could have taken action on a lot of things as President Pro Tem of the Senate (among other ways) included.
I soooo wish you were right, but I think there are enough Trump supporters out there that you shouldn’t make that case. The latest incident in the capitol for sure will further erode the GOP’s support in the middle class. What really makes Trump special amongst all other Presidents is that his support remained approximately constant throughout his entire presidency. With all other presidents, you could clearly correlate large changes in popularity with political events. For example, after 9/11 President Bush’s popularity surged, when the financial crisis unfolded, it tanked. This was also one of my arguments against Rob’s thesis that this is the Democrat’s fault.

I think it’ll put evolutionary pressure on Republicans who have an ounce of principles left and for whom the ends no longer justify the means. Cruz was disliked in the Senate before Trump became President; I’m taking it with a grain of salt, but according to Al Franken’s book, he was the most hated senator by far, and he was hated by his fellow Republicans, too. Flag-in-the-wind Lindsey Graham compared a Cruz presidency to the being poisoned. So I don’t think Cruz has a problem continuing down that path. He put all the money on Red/MAGA, and while he doesn’t know whether he will win, he is all in.
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
It ones down to the “movement conservative” concept. These are oligarchs using the label “Republican”, who insist that only they, by virtue of their fancy/expensive colleges and hereditary wealth, are smart enough to run things. Of course, if they were so smart, shouldn’t they have been able to manage/direct the thugs to do something more “useful”, like stealing the Electoral College ballot boxes? Yeah, that’s what I thought...
Unlike in other countries American conservatives (including the more intellectual commentariat like NR) are constantly spewing divisive drivel, painting themselves as the only ones who wish to uphold the Constitution while “the Far Left” wants to break it. They are the only ones on Team America while The Left wants to fundamentally change what America is and destroy it in the end. Nuance is lost. You don’t have a disagreement about tax policy, one side wants to destroy while the other wants to protect what is right. When facts don’t support them, many are prone to at least entertain and popularize conspiracy theories (“I’m not saying that Hugo Chavez had a hand in changing the vote tally, I’m merely asking questions …”).

Yesterday, we saw where that led. I think it’ll be quite a while until America is getting out of that hole. The lack of a common base of shared facts is a huge obstacle.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
 
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