[besson3c]

Just read what Bush said about McCain, I find this sort of thing so utterly retarded.

Being Conservative or Liberal or not a binary thing that either has a positive or negative connotation. The scale of liberalism vs. conservatism is a sliding scale. The idea that somebody is a "true conservative" is just dumb, as if there is a competition in place to be as conservative as possible.

Am I the only person getting annoyed by these idiotic terms?

[Koralatov]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Am I the only person getting annoyed by these idiotic terms?

Not at all. I find it irritating in the extreme. What irritates (and worries) me more is that people are so keen to put themselves in these little boxes. It's not even as if they're being placed in them by others--they do it to themselves. I might be in a minority saying this, but I really don't think a single descriptor can fully encompass me, in either my political, social or moral views; yet some people seem to stick these labels on themselves enthusiastically, and it's only a matter of time before they become the label. Overall, I have liberal tendencies, but I don't think I could be adequately described as a "liberal".

I imagine it's much easier to describe yourself as a "true conservative" or a "liberal", but really, is it accurate? What bothers me more than even that is the way people abuse and misuse the terms. Conservatives use the terms 'liberal' to mean everything from someone who is socially-moderate and centrist to outright socialists; liberals use the label conservative equally indiscriminately. Ultimately, they become totally meaningless, and take on the status of insults rather than genuine descriptions. I mean, when was the last time someone was called "liberal" or "conservative" by an opponent without it being meant as some kind of insult?

I'm just about to read your racism and sexism thread. Venting tonight?

[davesimondotcom]

No, you aren't the only person annoyed by it.

I'm sick of the Republican candidates having to pander to the religious wackos and the Democrats having to pander to their particular groups.

The Republican party used to be that of a "big tent" where people of all types of ideologies were welcomed, but it's marginalized itself to the point where if you aren't "pro-life" you have very little support from the ones holding the power in the party.

Ironically, it's because of this marginalization that a mediocre middle-of-the-road candidate snuck through the primary process and is the presumptive nominee.

[besson3c]

It's so nice to hear from both of you, I mean it!

I guess I am venting a little bit, but it's up to people who see these problems for what they are to push back!

DaveSimon: yeah, when Bush was describing McCain's conservative record, I was appalled to see "anti-abortion" in the short list of three points... WTF? Since when has this dumb social conservative thing become a measure of a "true conservative"? I would categorize these people as "pro government interference" if I were interested in creating more labels...

One label that does ring true about me though is "awesome".

[OldManMac]

The oddest thing about Bush's comment is that he is so far from a "true conservative" that he doesn't realize, once again, how stupid he sounds.

[Chongo]

As Mr Miagi once said

Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later get squish just like grape

[besson3c]

Chongo: that philosophy would explain the lack of moderation in your viewpoints


Who is in charge of coming up with the official "true conservative" stamp of approval anyway?

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Chongo: that philosophy would explain the lack of moderation in your viewpoints


Who is in charge of coming up with the official "true conservative" stamp of approval anyway?

the same one who decides who is a "true liberal" Moveon.org maybe?

[besson3c]

Where have you heard the term "True Liberal" in a positive connotation? Seriously...

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Where have you heard the term "True Liberal" in a positive connotation? Seriously...

When contrasting Hillary against other Democrats
Joe Lieberman for one. He strayed from the party line in one thing, his support for the Irag war and the attempt to secure the country after the war. He was abandoned by the party establishment in re-election run.

I have also heard the term "Rockefeller Republican" being used again on the all three cable news channels

[besson3c]

And that is a positive connotation?

[Chongo]

You make it sound like being called a liberal is a bad thing. It must be why when anyone runs for office they hide the fact they are a liberal and act like they are right of center, as BJefferson Clinton did.

[Wiskedjak]

Sounds to me like someone is worried a moderate conservative might get the Republican nomination.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Sounds to me like someone is worried a moderate conservative might get the Republican nomination.

Not me. I voted for Dole in '96 and would have voted for Ford in '76. When I was 18 and registered in ''80 I did so as PND (party not designated) and as such could not vote in any of the primaries.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Not me. I voted for Dole in '96 and would have voted for Ford in '76. When I was 18 and registered in ''80 I did so as PND (party not designated) and as such could not vote in any of the primaries.

Ah, sorry. Was referring to whomever got Bush to say that.

[Buckaroo]

McCain is not Conservative. He's left of SHillary.

Don't vote for McCain.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Just read what Bush said about McCain, I find this sort of thing so utterly retarded.

Being Conservative or Liberal or not a binary thing that either has a positive or negative connotation. The scale of liberalism vs. conservatism is a sliding scale. The idea that somebody is a "true conservative" is just dumb, as if there is a competition in place to be as conservative as possible.

Am I the only person getting annoyed by these idiotic terms?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

McCain is not Conservative. He's left of SHillary.

Don't vote for McCain.

What does this mean?

What are the official credentials for being an official conservative? What would be wrong with being left of Hillary, if this were true?

I'm sick of this being repeated ad nauseum, please make an intelligent case.


Then again, I'm constantly coaxing people into being more substantive in the presentation of their viewpoint, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised by this laziness...

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

You make it sound like being called a liberal is a bad thing. It must be why when anyone runs for office they hide the fact they are a liberal and act like they are right of center, as BJefferson Clinton did.

I have a tendency not to read your post because of comments like that. It is hard to take someones viewpoint seriously when they resort to childish attacks.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

McCain is not Conservative. He's left of SHillary.

Don't vote for McCain.

You I would expect more out of.

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

You I would expect more out of.

I'm just being bad.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

I have a tendency not to read your post because of comments like that. It is hard to take someones viewpoint seriously when they resort to childish attacks.

In a way I kind of like it! It tells me that I won't get a substantive conversation out of him, so I know not to bother

I would prefer substantive conversation, but I guess a guy doesn't get everything he wants...

[Chuckit]

I think Wikipedia can answer this one.

[Kerrigan]

...Or the book on this subject by Roger Scruton.

Besson3c: I think that a true conservative is someone whose opinions/record of governance is best in accordance with the accepted principles of the contemporary conservative movement. This movement is currently understood to be divided into three components, which broadly reflect the roles of the state; that is to say, conservativism consists of social, economic, and foreign policy aspects.

This, in some sense, is to beg the question, since what I have said here is that a "true conservative" is one who finds favor with all three of the conservative types. But I'm sure that if you do some more research, you will find out more about what it means to hold conservative opinions on the functions of the state.

[besson3c]

I'm not surprised that there is a dictionary/academic definition of conservatism, but what does it actually mean when it is said in politics these days? Firstly, Bush's conservativism is much different than conditional conservatism. Secondly, the conservative party itself is pretty fragmented right now. For instance, is being a staunch and unrelenting Christian a prerequisite for being a true conservative right now? To me, the whole social conservatism thing stems from religion, and Bush himself listed anti-abortion as one of McCain's so called conservative virtues.

Do you agree that in actual practice, the term "true conservative" as it is used and misused is rather vague these days?

[Kerrigan]

editing...

Yes, Besson, I agree that the term is misused by Bush, as well as other commentators.

However, I do not think the term is used vaguely. I think the term is used by people to express their approval of a particular brand of conservatism. For instance, say that I was a born-again Baptist who cared more about religious values than about economic competitiveness or defense. Well, if I were like that, I would look at the conservative whose beliefs were most in line with mine and say, "Now that Huckabee, he's the true conservative."

This is not something that only conservatives do. For instance, do you remember last year when lots of people were asking if Obama was "black enough?" (See Is Obama Black Enough? - TIME) What does it mean to be "black enough?" Who is truly black, and who isn't? How is it that these are the same people who agreed with the observation that Clinton was the "first black president," but that Obama wasn't truly black? Who decides these things? Really, it's all a matter of one's perception, and to some extent, self-identification with the candidate.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

McCain is not Conservative. He's left of SHillary.

Don't vote for McCain.

I would think that if conservative minded people want you to represent them, then you're a Conservative.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

You make it sound like being called a liberal is a bad thing. It must be why when anyone runs for office they hide the fact they are a liberal and act like they are right of center, as BJefferson Clinton did.

Originally Posted by Rumor 

I have a tendency not to read your post because of comments like that. It is hard to take someones viewpoint seriously when they resort to childish attacks.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

In a way I kind of like it! It tells me that I won't get a substantive conversation out of him, so I know not to bother

I would prefer substantive conversation, but I guess a guy doesn't get everything he wants...

Just as I have started to ignore childish threads with "moron" or "idiot" in the title. You can't have a substantive dialog in a thread like that.

[peeb]

Yes, but that just pushes the question "who are conservative minded people"?

[vmarks]

Amazon.com: Conscience of a Conservative: Books: Barry Goldwater

Goldwater wrote the book. The Conscience of a Conservative.

Read it. Local Library, and all that.

As I said in one of the other threads, there are three legs to conservatism:
Social conservatism
National Defense conservatism
Fiscal conservatism

[Kerrigan]

Besson knows what conservativism is, otherwise he would not have already passed judgment on it by speaking in such harsh terms about it ("idiotic," "retarded," etc). This thread is an unsuccessful attempt to craft a maieutic dialog to undermine conservative principles.

[peeb]

Well, it's not at all clear precisely what 'conservatism' is, since once you start to unpack those three legs, getting right down to it is messy. 'Social conservatism', for example, is far from clear.

[Kerrigan]

How is this any different from defining liberalism? It requires the same epistemological operation to try and discern the meaning and validity of the word.

[peeb]

Maybe it's no different - feel free to start a thread about defining liberalism.

[Kerrigan]

I would, but since this thread has gone nowhere, I don't want to create another similar one.

[besson3c]

The point of this thread was simple really: does talk of being a "true conservative" by politicians and pundits these days actually line up with established definitions? If not, what exactly do they mean when they say this?

[Uncle Skeleton]

The definition of liberalism isn't currently relevant, because liberals are the underdogs. They just have to define themselves as being in opposition to conservatives, and that's enough to get them by for now. They don't need a definition so long as they keep snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

[vmarks]

Time for another recommended reading:

Amazon.com: A National Party No More: The Conscience of a Conservative Democrat: Books: Zell Miller

Zell Miller's The Conscience of a Conservative Democrat, worth reading after you've read Goldwater's book, as well as anything by Walter Williams.

[peeb]

Whether or not they are in political ascendancy seems pretty irrelevant to definitions.

[OldManMac]

Time for another recommended reading:

Amazon.com: Blinded by the Right: The Conscience of an Ex-Conservative: Books: David Brock

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

Time for another recommended reading:

Amazon.com: Blinded by the Right: The Conscience of an Ex-Conservative: Books: David Brock

It might be entertaining, but I don't know why you'd recommend fiction when the original poster is looking for something factual to inform him.

The author of the book you recommended used the book to admit his commission of slander. So it comes as no surprise that the book is spent committing more slander. NEXT!

[Doofy]

Conservative: Like things the way they are. Likes to conserve the status quo. Thus, the current system can be said to be working for the conservative. So, he's a winner.

Liberal: Hates things the way they are and seeks change. Usually found wanting to change things because the current system isn't working for him. So, he's a loser.

[PaperNotes]

A true conservative is one who wants to conserve essential traditions, conserve essential natural environmental conditions and preserve individual and collective liberty.

A fake conservative is a religious fundamentalist and xenophobe who fears all progress.

A true liberal is one who wants to conserve essential traditions, conserve essential natural environmental conditions and preserve individual and collective liberty.

A fake liberal is fashion victim who believes anything musicians, actors, Hilary Clinton, Michael Moore, Bono, Greenpeace and MTV tells them, and is really just interested in taking lots of drugs and being a "Save the world" hypocrite and liar.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Conservative: Like things the way they are. Likes to conserve the status quo. Thus, the current system can be said to be working for the conservative. So, he's a winner.

Liberal: Hates things the way they are and seeks change. Usually found wanting to change things because the current system isn't working for him. So, he's a loser.

So, basically, America and every non-Catholic Christian sect were founded by a bunch of losers?

The reality is, there's a time to be conservative and a time to be liberal. Fortunately, in a democracy, it's easy to tell when that time is.

[red rocket]

The way I see it, ‘conservative’ is a euphemism for ‘reactionary’. The more you appeal to grumpy old farts who like to shoot at kids, negroes, and vagrants, and would secretly love to live the life of a minor nobleman in the Dark Ages, the truer a ‘conservative’ politician you are.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

It might be entertaining, but I don't know why you'd recommend fiction when the original poster is looking for something factual to inform him.

The author of the book you recommended used the book to admit his commission of slander. So it comes as no surprise that the book is spent committing more slander. NEXT!

$$$$$ is Brock's motivation, not ideology. He's a literary mercenary.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

The way I see it, ‘conservative’ is a euphemism for ‘reactionary’. The more you appeal to grumpy old farts who like to shoot at kids, negroes, and vagrants, and would secretly love to live the life of a minor nobleman in the Dark Ages, the truer a ‘conservative’ politician you are.

Sound like the Klan, which incidentally, was founded my Democrats to counter the Republican carpetbaggers and suppress the rights of the newly freed slaves.

[paul w]

Times have changed. Those same southern states are now largely republican. Today the democrats are more the party of Kennedy ( responsible for the civil rights act ) than say Jefferson Davis.

And Republicans seem to be less the party of Barry Goldwater than ever before.

[vmarks]

actually, John F Kennedy cut taxes in large amounts. He'd never be a Democrat today.

[peeb]

Democrats are not for high taxes per se.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by paul w 

Times have changed. Those same southern states are now largely republican. Today the democrats are more the party of Kennedy ( responsible for the civil rights act ) than say Jefferson Davis.

And Republicans seem to be less the party of Barry Goldwater than ever before.

Actually, as a %, more (R) voted for the '64 CRA than (D)