[hyteckit]

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=4754

Five exorcisms per day taking place in Mexico


The number of daily exorcisms has been climbing since the 1960s, according to researchers. In the central Federal District of Mexico alone there are eight priests authorized by the Holy See to perform exorcisms in order to expel demons in the name of Jesus according to the rites and norms of the Catholic Church.

5 exorcisms per day? That's it? What a loser.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Guess you missed this part:


this is standard rote for almost every jurisdiction. Of course, one scam artist = the entire Roman Catholic church, according to hyteckit "logic". Right?

No, Christians seek exorcism to cure their disease cause they believe it helps. How is that any different from Scientologists who believe in exorcism?

[hyteckit]

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=13246

Cardinal Rivera says every priest is an exorcist


The Archbishop of Mexico City, Cardinal Norberto Rivera Carrera, said during a pastoral visit to the parish of San Pedro Cuajimalpa that every priest is an exorcist because of his priestly ministry and is called to exercise the service of expelling the Evil One especially through the Sacrament of Confession.

He revealed that this experience led him to dedicate a priest in each of the eight regions of the most populous archdiocese in the world to the work of exorcism through “prayer, healing and liberation, to help the faithful who are under the control of evil.”

Cardinal Norberto Rivera Carrera feels left out. Wants to make money from exorcism too. It's a lucrative business. Collecting small donations from 30,000 visits a year can earn you millions. Learned it from the Priest in Florence.

Mental illness? Nah, it's evil. Evil I tell you like internet addiction and Yoga.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=11997

Of course. Dealing with exorcising demons requires a doctor's degree. It's complex. The devil is cunning.

Actually, it requires an Exorcist, as the Bishop explained. Why, you may ask? Because an Exorcist (which is an official church order) is trained to perform the rite of exorcism without causing injury.

I won't get into the validity of such rites, though I do believe they can be helpful, but I haven't seen anyone injured during one.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Actually, it requires an Exorcist, as the Bishop explained. Why, you may ask? Because an Exorcist (which is an official church order) is trained to perform the rite of exorcism without causing injury.

I won't get into the validity of such rites, though I do believe they can be helpful, but I haven't seen anyone injured during one.

Did you not see the link from previous post?

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=13246

Cardinal Rivera says every priest is an exorcist
- The Archbishop of Mexico City


Every priest is an exorcist because of his priestly ministry and is called to exercise the service of expelling the Evil One especially through the Sacrament of Confession.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

No, Christians seek exorcism to cure their disease cause they believe it helps. How is that any different from Scientologists who believe in exorcism?

You really should study the terms.

Healing seldom equals an exorcism. People will often ask for prayer when they're ill, but an exorcism is quite uncommon.

[hyteckit]

Killed a autistic boy during exorcism?

Let's call it "prayer service".

http://www.courttv.com/trials/exorci....html#continue

Jentzen also found severe hemorrhaging at the back of the boy's neck, which he attributed to either "a blow with a blunt object" or "sustained pressure."

Terrance, like most autistic children, hated to be touched and had few words to express his needs, according to previous testimony. His mother and two female parishioners helped restrain him as he lay on his back on the floor of the strip-mall based Faith Temple of the Apostolic Faith Church, where Hemphill administered the boy's 12th such "prayer service," as the defense calls it.

Let's cure autism with "prayer service".

[hyteckit]

More autistic children getting killed by Exorcism? Yup.

http://www.autismvox.com/attempted-e...er-in-indiana/

No, it's not exorcism. It's "prayer service".

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Did you not see the link from previous post?

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=13246

Cardinal Rivera says every priest is an exorcist
- The Archbishop of Mexico City


Every priest is an exorcist because of his priestly ministry and is called to exercise the service of expelling the Evil One especially through the Sacrament of Confession.

I'd have to know the context. First, there's exorcism during Confession. After the confession, the priest will ask the parishioner if they denounce Satan and his works, then they'll both pray. This is pretty light stuff, and almost conversational.

Then there's the rite of Exorcism. Care to guess which is the more intense and tends to get the most press?

[hyteckit]

Poor Nun. Dies during exorcism.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in704206.shtml

She has schizophrenia. No, she has the devil in her head.

Let's do what Scientologist do, but make it more kinky by gaging her with a towel and bound her to a cross. And lets not feed her. Make her beg. Yeah, kinky stuff. Me likely.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I'd have to know the context. First, there's exorcism during Confession. After the confession, the priest will ask the parishioner if they denounce Satan and his works, then they'll both pray. This is pretty light stuff, and almost conversational.

Then there's the rite of Exorcism. Care to guess which is the more intense and tends to get the most press?

What? You believe exorcism works? It's being done at your Church too?

[hyteckit]

I heard a Witch doctor performed a exorcism on Sarah Palin too. Must be fun.

[Shaddim]

So, you've gone online and found people who have been killed during unsanctioned and ill-advised "exorcisms". After all this time you haven't discovered the "real truth"?

People are generally stupid, and if something is done improperly, or with the wrong intention, others will get hurt. It's that simple, no need to go digging through the atheist propaganda machine.

/yawn


Ok, steered this away from your own blunder long enough. Time to set this back on course. The vast majority of Christians (along with peoples of other faiths) believe that medicine is to be taken, and that prayer is not a substitute for such care. Scientologists believe that aliens are the cause of mental illness and refuse medical treatment for such ailments. There, that sums it up and shows the difference.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I'd have to know the context. First, there's exorcism during Confession. After the confession, the priest will ask the parishioner if they denounce Satan and his works, then they'll both pray. This is pretty light stuff, and almost conversational.

Then there's the rite of Exorcism. Care to guess which is the more intense and tends to get the most press?

You know how Exorcism is perform in Scientology? Islam? Hinduism? Witch Doctors of Africa? Witch Doctors in Asia?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

What? You believe exorcism works? It's being done at your Church too?

No, the UU doesn't support such practices. We go to that church for the social value. It's fun and provides for good conversation.

[Chuckit]

Dude, you're really reaching here. If I find you a few examples of atheists who converted to Christianity, will you admit that you're not sincere in your disbelief? I'd hope not, because it would be just as absurd as believing that Christians reject medicine in favor of exorcism just because you found a handful of news stories that mention the word "exorcist."

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

You know how Exorcism is perform in Scientology? Islam? Hinduism? Witch Doctors of Africa? Witch Doctors in Asia?

What if I do? I've made it a practice to study such things. You know, it's my job.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Ok, steered this away from your own blunder long enough. Time to set this back on course. The vast majority of Christians (along with peoples of other faiths) believe that medicine is to be taken, and that prayer is not a substitute for such care. Scientologists believe that aliens are the cause of mental illness and refuse medical treatment for such ailments. There, that sums it up and shows the difference.

Oh really?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27200727/

Many Christian pastors dismiss mental illness

In a study of Christian church members who approached their church for help with a personal or family member's diagnosed mental illness, researchers found that more than 32 percent were told by their pastor that they or their loved one did not really have a mental illness.

"The results are troubling because it suggests individuals in the local church are either denying or dismissing a somewhat high percentage of mental health diagnosis," said study leader Matthew Stanford, professor of psychology and neuroscience at Baylor University in Texas. "Those whose mental illness is dismissed by clergy are not only being told they don't have a mental illness, they are also being told they need to stop taking their medication. That can be a very dangerous thing."

[Shaddim]

Being advised that a person may not have an illness isn't the same as being restricted from treatment.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Being advised that a person may not have an illness isn't the same as being restricted from treatment.

Travolta has been treating his son for Kawasaki disease using modern medicine for many years.

You want him to treat his son for autism using modern medicine? So you assume his son has Autism without any facts? Is that your medical advise to Travolta?


The CoS advise Travolta that his son does not suffer from Autism. You mean the CoS held Travolta at gunpoint restricted him from treating his son with modern medicine for Kawasaki disease?

The Christian Church advise it's followers that they don't have a mental illness. If the followers believe the Pastors, why would they seek medical treatment for mental illness that they believe they don't have? Don't trust your Pastor?

The CoS advises Travolta that his son doesn't have a mental illness.

How is that different? Both Churches advise their followers that they don't have a mental illness, because they don't believe in them or certain "mental illness". So CoS don't believe in 100% of mental illness and advise against getting medical treatment for it. The Christian Church doesn't believe in 30% of mental illness and advise against getting medical treatment for it.

Travolta is treating his son for Kawasaki disease.

[hyteckit]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,475488,00.html

Actress Kelly Preston has said her 16-year old son with husband John Travolta became very sick when he was 2 and was diagnosed with Kawasaki disease, an illness that affects the blood vessels in young children.

The boy, Jett Travolta, died Friday after suffering a seizure at the family's vacation home in the Bahamas, though it wasn't immediately clear whether the death was related to his illness. The boy was found in a bathtub, where he reportedly fell and hit his head.

In a 2003 interview on the Montel Williams show, Preston talked about her son's struggle with Kawasaki disease. "It causes swelling in the organs, so your heart can swell, different important organs can swell," she said. "We thought at one point we were going to lose him."

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

The Christian Church advise it's followers that they don't have a mental illness. If the followers believe the Pastors, why would they seek medical treatment for mental illness that they believe they don't have?

That's just some pastors being idiots. Churches generally don't tell their pastors to ignore people's medical conditions. And according to the article you quoted, a supermajority do correctly acknowledge people's conditions.

In other words: This is not remotely comparable. Do you really think you're doing to convince anybody with these wild stretches?

[Jawbone54]

*sigh* I swear, I try and try to stay away from the Political/War Lounge...

As I've mentioned before, I'm a pastor's son (and later, student pastor) at a Pentecostal church. We're the "crazy ones" you hear about.

We absolutely believe in mental disorders in which spirituality is in no way involved. We do indeed PRAY for people, but we do not perform a so-called exorcism on someone with a mental disorder.

We pray for them, advise them, have often called in a psychiatrist from Houston (who sometimes prescribes medicine to them and always educates them on overcoming their condition). My mom is actually something of an expert on dissociative disorders, and has gotten involved in at least seven rehabilitations of patients who suffer from them, but ONLY in an assisting role to a professional.

Of course, we do believe in spiritual influences on earth. We have prayed for people that we believed were afflicted or oppressed, but you would certainly not call it an "exorcism." It was done so calmly, gently, and only involved laying our hands on people and praying for them. There was no sprinkling of holy water, violent shaking, calling down of whirlwinds, or anything remotely similar.

We're a pro-medicine, pro-therapy church that believes in these modern methods as well as what we believe is the genuine power of prayer. While we have certainly had people die at a young age from ailments such as toxic shock syndrome and (of course) cancer, we've also had people pull through in such a manner that their attending physicians were shocked. The thing they all had in common was this: they were all seeking medical treatment throughout.

So my question is this: hyteckit, by your definition, does that make us something less than Christian? Or are we still adequately freaky and archaic for you?

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

That's just some pastors being idiots. Churches generally don't tell their pastors to ignore people's medical conditions. And according to the article you quoted, a supermajority do correctly acknowledge people's conditions.

In other words: This is not remotely comparable. Do you really think you're doing to convince anybody with these wild stretches?

Some? How about 1/3 of pastors or 32%? Maybe Christian Pastors agree with only 67% of medically accepted mental illness and 100% of Christian Pastors are idiots for rejecting 32% of medically accepted mental diseases? Then again, Christians Pastors think homosexuality is a mental illness when it's not. We can cure homosexuality through exorcism right?

The difference between the Christianity and Scientology is how they view mental illness.

Homosexuality?

Christians: mental illness
Scientology: not a mental illness

Mental illness is not one disease. It's a criteria or category.

Is net addiction a mental illness?
Is video game addiction a mental illness?
Are all addictions a mental illness?
Is believing in God a mental illness?
Is not believing in God a mental illness?
Is OCD is mental illness?
Don't Christians exhibit OCD like saying grace before dinner, obsession about God, touching cross when entering or exiting their car?

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

So my question is this: hyteckit, by your definition, does that make us something less than Christian? Or are we still adequately freaky and archaic for you?

No, you are a Christian who believes exorcism and prayer can cure illness, just like a Scientologist. And you are no better than a Scientologist.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Some? How about 1/3 of pastors or 32%? Maybe Christian Pastors agree with only 67% of medically accepted mental illness and 100% of Christian Pastors are idiots for rejecting 32% of medically accepted mental diseases? Then again, Christians Pastors think homosexuality is a mental illness when it's not. We can cure homosexuality through exorcism right?

The difference between the Christianity and Scientology is how they view mental illness.

Homosexuality?

Christians: mental illness
Scientology: not a mental illness

Mental illness is not one disease. It's a criteria or category.

Is net addiction a mental illness?
Is video game addiction a mental illness?
Are all addictions a mental illness?
Is believing in God a mental illness?
Is not believing in God a mental illness?
Is OCD is mental illness?
Don't Christians exhibit OCD like saying grace before dinner, obsession about God, touching cross when entering or exiting their car?

No idea what this has to do with anything. Either I'm sleepier than I thought or this is kind of stream-of-consciousness.

Overall, though, I believe that religions that habitually do not kill people are better than religions that do, and in that respect Jawbone's religion is better than Scientology.

[hyteckit]

You guys are silly for make judgements solely based on one assumption on top of another.

Why do you guys keep insisting his son died from Autism?

Show me medical proof that Travolta's son has Autism and needs to be treated for Autism.

Travolta has been medically treating his son for Kawasaki disease. Maybe from the advise of his doctor?


If your child has Kawasaki disease according to the doctor's diagnosis, don't you treat you child with medication for Kawasaki disease? Why the hell would you treat your child for Autism, when it is diagnose as Kawasaki disease by the doctor? Because the media and believe on forums says it's Autism? Who needs to see a doctor then? I'll just just the word from strangers on the internet.

Because Travolta is a Scientologist, you automatically assume it's Autism?

Wow, you guys are very tolerant toward other religions.

Let just assume all Scientologist are nutjobs who don't every get a doctor checkup for any medical disease.

Scientologist dies from cancer? No it's autism.
Scientologist dies from heart attack? No it's autism.
Scientologist dies from Kawasaki disease? No it's autism.

Come on. Stop making dumb assumptions without having the facts.

You guys are intolerant SOBs.

Wait until you have the details. I'll treat Scientologist like I treat Christians.

It could very well be Autism that was the cause the death of his son.

Until then, all you guys are just judgmental intolerant SOBs, making assumptions based solely on your bias toward other religions different from your own.

[Chuckit]

My bias toward other religions different from my own? Tell me: What is my religion and how is Scientology different from it in a way that biases me against it?

According to the news reports, he died of a seizure, which is not symptomatic of Kawasaki syndrome AFAIK. (I have a friend with that disease, so I've been familiar with it for a while.)

You're right that I'm not giving Scientology the benefit of the doubt. That's because I wasn't born yesterday, so I apply my experiences and knowledge (which all tell me Scientology is no good) when evaluating the situation.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

You guys are silly for make judgements [sic] solely based on one assumption on top of another.

and THAT bit of irony just about wraps it up.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

My bias toward other religions different from my own? Tell me: What is my religion and how is Scientology different from it in a way that biases me against it?

Well, do you believe in Scientology? No? Then Scientology is different from your own beliefs right? Duh! :rolleyes

How you are bias against Scientology and in what way? I think you answered your own question when you said: "so I apply my experiences and knowledge (which all tell me Scientology is no good) when evaluating the situation."

That's your bias you just admitted to. You are not giving Scientology the benefit of the doubt due to you bias that Scientology is no good.

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

According to the news reports, he died of a seizure, which is not symptomatic of Kawasaki syndrome AFAIK. (I have a friend with that disease, so I've been familiar with it for a while.)

You're right that I'm not giving Scientology the benefit of the doubt. That's because I wasn't born yesterday, so I apply my experiences and knowledge (which all tell me Scientology is no good) when evaluating the situation.

What's your experiences and knowledge that tells you Scientology is no good? Have you read Dynamics? Have you been to a Scientology center?

I can make the same blanket statements like my experiences and knowledge that tells me Christianity is no good when it comes to mental illnesses. According the recent studies, Christian Pastors reject 32% of medically accepted mental illness, and advise them not the take their prescribe medication. I think Christianity is no good. Am I being bias?


I'll just let Lisa Marie Presley explain my sentiments.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...tas-death.html

“I am writing this because I have noticed that for the most part, people and the media have been very sympathetic and respectful, but there are those certain ones that want to use this horrible tragedy as an opportunity to once again, blame and-or attack Scientology,” Presley writes in her post.

She also states it is “crazy, made-up garbage” to claim Scientologists do not believe in medical care or that this “may have something to do with this terrible tragedy.

“Just like anyone else, if one is sick, they go to the doctor, if a medication will make it better then they take it.”

Jett Travolta, 16, died after suffering a seizure last week while on holiday with his family in the Bahamas. He had suffered seizures throughout his life and as a toddler, had a rare disease called Kawasaki syndrome, which can lead to heart disease and related problems.

[hyteckit]

1403 medical conditions and 316 drugs that can cause Seizures.

But because Travolta is a Scientologist, his son must have Autism and died from it.

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/sympto...res/causes.htm

In the list: Kawasaki disease

Yet, it must be Autism.

[shifuimam]

If you were to count the percentage of posts in this thread that are hyteckit's, you'd realize that he really just likes the sound of his own voice (so to speak, given that this is all text).

You are still ignoring a key point that I have made multiple times, so let's try this again.

Scientologists believe that Hubbard's methods of dianetics and auditing are the unequivocal, ultimate, and only possible way of dealing with mental health and psychological problems. Period.

As Jawbone clearly stated, his church (and, yes - Pentecostals are one of the weirder denominations in mainstream Christianity) always relies first and foremost on science and medicine when faced with any kind of psychological or physiological problem.

To put it into a different context:

Two people go into a bar. One is a recovering alcoholic; one is not. Is the recovering alcoholic who relapses and has ten glasses of whiskey in a row any different from the other guy who has one cocktail and leaves?

Two people, same substance, same location...yet two entirely different attitudes, applications, and results.

Scientology and Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) could be said to be no different from each other, given that both entirely reject modern science and medicine in favor of dogma.

[Chongo]

So, Atheism is just like Satanism.

[hyteckit]

John Travolta's son died from a seizure.

John Travolta's son has been given a drug called Depakote, a strong anti-seizure medication, for many years.

Where do you guys get the idea that Travolta's son was denied modern medicine?

[shifuimam]

I like how you completely ignore people who tear apart your weak, ill-formed "arguments". It just makes you look like an idiot.

I never said that Jett was autistic - I said he was thought to be autistic, as noted in one of the many articles about what happened to him.

You nor I know the details of his death, exactly why he died, or what other physical and psychological problems he may have had. It is not out of the realm of possibility that the CoS played a part in his early demise, especially given their history with "accidentally" ending up with dead members.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I like how you completely ignore people who tear apart your weak, ill-formed "arguments". It just makes you look like an idiot.

I never said that Jett was autistic - I said he was thought to be autistic, as noted in one of the many articles about what happened to him.

You nor I know the details of his death, exactly why he died, or what other physical and psychological problems he may have had. It is not out of the realm of possibility that the CoS played a part in his early demise, especially given their history with "accidentally" ending up with dead members.

According to all accounts, John Travolta's son was treated with Depakote for his seizure.

Do you have solid evidence to counter the claim that is son was denied anti-seizure drugs that would've prevented his son's death?

No?

You know that seizures can cause autism-like symptoms right?

Autism is linked to seizures, but autism doesn't cause seizures.

Autism is a behavior problem which you take drugs to control an Autistic child's behavior.

What if the Autistic child has seizures as well? You treat them with anti-drugs like Depakote, which John Travolta has been giving his son for many years.

What drugs use to treat autism would have prevented Jett Travolta from dying from a seizure?

You tell me.

All you guys claim that drug treatment for autism would have saved Jett Travolta's life.

What drug(s)?

You mean anti-seizure drugs that Jett Travolta has been taking for many years?

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

All you guys claim that drug treatment for autism would have saved Jett Travolta's life.

What drug(s)?

You mean anti-seizure drugs that Jett Travolta has been taking for many years?

This is probably going to get me an infraction, but that's too bad.

Dude, shut the f*ck up. You are incapable of bringing any viable arguments to the table. You resort to insults, reactionary statements, and misquoting others in order to twist around what they say to support your unfounded opinions.

Nobody here has said that drug treatment for autism (or anything else) definitively would have saved Jett Travolta's life. Nobody has said that he definitely had autism. Nobody has said beyond a doubt that the CoS was directly involved.

All I pointed out was that the CoS has been directly involved in too many cases resulting in the death or injury of its followers. I said that Jett was thought to have autism.

This article raises some interesting points about Jett, speculation about autism, and doubts about whether or not his diagnoses and treatments were correct or misguided.

We get it. You think that were all a bunch of judgmental assholes. You think that CoS is just like any other religion.

Believe whatever the hell you want, but just shut up already. I think I speak for at least a few others when I say that you are getting to the point where debating with you is a complete waste of time, because you don't read, think, or communicate in any way that makes you appear remotely educated or intelligent.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

This is probably going to get me an infraction, but that's too bad.

Dude, shut the f*ck up. You are incapable of bringing any viable arguments to the table. You resort to insults, reactionary statements, and misquoting others in order to twist around what they say to support your unfounded opinions.

Nobody here has said that drug treatment for autism (or anything else) definitively would have saved Jett Travolta's life. Nobody has said that he definitely had autism. Nobody has said beyond a doubt that the CoS was directly involved.

All I pointed out was that the CoS has been directly involved in too many cases resulting in the death or injury of its followers. I said that Jett was thought to have autism.

This article raises some interesting points about Jett, speculation about autism, and doubts about whether or not his diagnoses and treatments were correct or misguided.

We get it. You think that were all a bunch of judgmental assholes. You think that CoS is just like any other religion.

Believe whatever the hell you want, but just shut up already. I think I speak for at least a few others when I say that you are getting to the point where debating with you is a complete waste of time, because you don't read, think, or communicate in any way that makes you appear remotely educated or intelligent.

So what if Jett Travolta has autism? Drugs for Autism are use to control Autistic behaviors, not seizures. Anti-seizures drugs are use to control seizures. If Jett Travolta does have Autism and is not treated for Autism, then he would continue to exihibit Autistic behaviors. Did Jett Travolta die from Autistic behaviors? No. Jett Travolta died from seizures. How do you control seizures? With anti-seizure drugs.


Jett Travolta has been on Depakote for his seizure for many years.

If Depakote has been 100% effective in preventing seizures, Jett Travolta wouldn't die would he?

Scientology didn't cause Jett Travolta's death. Seizures and ineffective anti-seizure medication cause Jett Travolta's death.


You judgmental SOBs just took advantage of the opportunity to blame Scientology, which somehow is the reason Jett Travolta died because he wasn't given medication for Autism. Made up assumptions and speculations with no facts whatsoever.


Oh Jett Travolta has Autism.
Oh Jett Travolta died from Autism.
Oh Jett Travolta died from Autism, because he was denied drugs that treat Autism.


Drugs for Autism controls Autistic behavior. Anti-Seizure drugs are use to control seizures. Jett Travolta died from a seizure because the anti-seizure drug he was taking was ineffective.

[hyteckit]

FACT: Jett Travolta died from a seizure.
FACT: 1/3 of people who exhibit Autistic behavior, suffer from seizures

Let's assume Jett Travolta does indeed have Autism.

What drugs use to treat Autism could have possibly prevented Jett Travolta's death?


I want to know, cause you guys are making the argument that Jett Travolta's life might have been saved if he was treated for Autism, and somehow Scientology is to be blamed because Scientology denies Autism and forbids its treatments for Autism.

So the logical question would be, what drugs used to treat Autism could have possibly prevented Jett Travolta's death?

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

FACT: Jett Travolta died from a seizure.
FACT: 1/3 of people who exhibit Autistic behavior, suffer from seizures

Let's assume Jett Travolta does indeed have Autism.

What drugs use to treat Autism could have possibly prevented Jett Travolta's death?


I want to know, cause you guys are making the argument that Jett Travolta's life might have been saved if he was treated for Autism, and somehow Scientology is to be blamed because Scientology denies Autism and forbids its treatments for Autism.

So the logical question would be, what drugs used to treat Autism could have possibly prevented Jett Travolta's death?

I cant speak for the other "guys", but I listened to the Dr. Dean Edell (sp) show on AM radio and according to him, there is/are REPORT(S) that the kid was being treated for seizures via medication, and that POSSIBLY he was recently removed from the medication. Aside from that, I havent heard jack, and personally know nothing.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Jett Travolta died from a seizure because the anti-seizure drug he was taking was ineffective.

There are at least six other anti-seizure medications not including modifying the kid's diet to reduce the chances of seizure (lower carbohydrate.) Judging by Jett's size, no special diet was administered, and the Travolta family tried only one drug.

If my kid was having trouble, I'd do everything I could to help them. I'm not downplaying the Travolta's love for their child, but it's blatantly obvious that the Church of Scientology had a huge part in their decisions for treating their kid.

There are a whole host of options for treating and dealing with autism, epilepsy, and seizures, and the Travoltas barely did anything.

[shifuimam]

There are very little conclusive details about the death of Jett. You are also making assumptions about his death and its actual cause. If you take the time to read the article I linked above, you would notice that neighbors of the Travoltas noticed various signs pointing to possible developmental disorders (including autism), such as Jett's inability to communicate normally.

The death certificate says cause of death was seizure with no visible head trauma, while official police records indicate head trama. Not only that, but the Travoltas appear to be covering up at least something - they sent for a hearse, even though Jett will be cremated.

You judgmental SOBs just took advantage of the opportunity to blame Scientology, which somehow is the reason Jett Travolta died because he wasn't given medication for Autism. Made up assumptions and speculations with no facts whatsoever.

No, no, no, no, no, no, NO. It has been said multiple times that it's merely an observation that it is possible that the CoS was involved, and would not be surprising if it was revealed that Scientology did have some part in this tragedy.

Stop misquoting people. Stop twisting around people's words. It makes you look like a fool.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

I cant speak for the other "guys", but I listened to the Dr. Dean Edell (sp) show on AM radio and according to him, there is/are REPORT(S) that the kid was being treated for seizures via medication, and that POSSIBLY he was recently removed from the medication. Aside from that, I havent heard jack, and personally know nothing.

That's what I've heard too. Jett Travolta was taken off Depakote because it become ineffective and the Travoltas didn't like the side effects.

[shifuimam]

And, as olePigeon pointed out, there are multiple alternatives to Depakote for controlling epilepsy, seizures, etc. Unless there is a lot of information missing from the story (which is entirely possible and also why nobody here is making definitive conclusions on the incident), it sounds like not many measures were taken to protect Jett and prevent his seizures.

Could the CoS be involved in that? Absolutely. Their philosophy is adamantly against mind-altering drugs. It's entirely possible that Travolta's Scientologist "advisers" told him to stay away from other anti-seizure medications, since they directly affect neural function.

Am I saying that this is certain? No. I'm just putting it out as a possibility that there's more to this than you might think.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

There are very little conclusive details about the death of Jett. You are also making assumptions about his death and its actual cause. If you take the time to read the article I linked above, you would notice that neighbors of the Travoltas noticed various signs pointing to possible developmental disorders (including autism), such as Jett's inability to communicate normally.

The death certificate says cause of death was seizure with no visible head trauma, while official police records indicate head trama. Not only that, but the Travoltas appear to be covering up at least something - they sent for a hearse, even though Jett will be cremated.

Because Seizures can cause autistic-like behaviors. Travolta's son has been having seizures since 2. Wouldn't that explain why Jett Travolta might exhibit autistic-like behaviors?

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

No, no, no, no, no, no, NO. It has been said multiple times that it's merely an observation that it is possible that the CoS was involved, and would not be surprising if it was revealed that Scientology did have some part in this tragedy.

Stop misquoting people. Stop twisting around people's words. It makes you look like a fool.

Of course Scientology is involved. Travolta is a Scientology, and his views on mental illness or treatment is shaped by it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27200727/

Many Christian pastors dismiss mental illness. A third of those who sought church help told disorder was spiritual, and advise the church member to not take their medication. So what happens if someone suffers from postpartum depression and listens to the Christian pastor's advise on not taking medication. Then goes on to kill her children and herself.

Was the Christian church involved in this case I mention above? Yes. I'm drawing the same link you are.


The Christian Church did not forbid or prevent this person from taken medication for postpartum depression, they just advice this person. They just don't believe in that mental illness.

The Church of Scientology did not forbid or prevent Travolta from treating his child for seizures. They just advice Travolta that it is not Autism, because they don't believe in that mental illness.


In both cases, both the Christian Church and CoS had influence and was involved.


However, you still have no have provided any proof whatsoever, that the CoS prevented Travolta from giving medication to son that could've prevented Jett Travolta's death due to a seizure.

That's your claim as well as most people here on this thread.


By all accounts, Travolta has been giving his son anti-seizure meds for many years and only recently taken his son off of it because it became ineffective.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

And, as olePigeon pointed out, there are multiple alternatives to Depakote for controlling epilepsy, seizures, etc. Unless there is a lot of information missing from the story (which is entirely possible and also why nobody here is making definitive conclusions on the incident), it sounds like not many measures were taken to protect Jett and prevent his seizures.

Could the CoS be involved in that? Absolutely. Their philosophy is adamantly against mind-altering drugs. It's entirely possible that Travolta's Scientologist "advisers" told him to stay away from other anti-seizure medications, since they directly affect neural function.

Am I saying that this is certain? No. I'm just putting it out as a possibility that there's more to this than you might think.

So more assumptions and speculation.

Yes, the CoS could be involved and Scientologist "advisers" could have told him to stay away from other anti-seizure medications.


And 32% of Christian Pastors advise its members that they don't have a mental illness and told the not the take their mental illness medication according to a recent study.

[subego]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

That's what I've heard too. Jett Travolta was taken off Depakote because it become ineffective and the Travoltas didn't like the side effects.

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

And, as olePigeon pointed out, there are multiple alternatives to Depakote for controlling epilepsy, seizures, etc.

My shrink once tried to prescribe me Depakote for bipolar disorder. I looked at the side effects and said "are you out of your mind? I'm not that ****ing crazy."

As it happens, after not having one for 32 years, I had a seizure about a month ago. They put me on Keppra, which is the goto anti-seizure medication specifically because it has the least amount of side effects.

FWIW, AFAICT, I was standing when it happened, so my head went 6 feet onto the kitchen tile, which lead to a skull fracture, a concussion, a big contusion, blood squirting out of my ear, unconscious in the hospital for a couple days, etc.

[hyteckit]

Should parents be force to correct their child's behavior problems with medication?

CASE 1: Autism

Autism: Mental illness. Behavior problems. Treated with medication for autism to control behavior.
Seizure: Physical illness. Treated with anti-seizure medication

Scientologist does not view Autism as a mental illness that needs to be treated with medication. They only treat the physical illness which is the seizures.


CASE 2: Homosexuality
(Note: I apologize for drawing any parallels to homosexuality and AIDs, but the fact is that homosexuals are at a higher risk for AIDs. And no, I'm not saying all Christians believe homosexuality is a mental illness nor am I implying homosexuality is a mental disorder.)

So what happens if they came out with a drug to control homosexual behavior? Should parents be force to correct their sons and daughters sexual behavior?

From a Christian's standpoint who believes homosexuality is a mental illness.

Homosexuality: Mental illness. Behavior problems. Needs to be treated with medication for homosexuality to control homosexual behavior.
AIDS: Physical illness. Needs to be treated with AIDS medication

Is it wrong for me to believe homosexuality is not a mental illness and doesn't need to be treated with medication? What if I had a son who is gay and has AIDs. I don't believe homosexuality is a mental illness, so I don't treat my son for it with medication for homosexuality. I would only treat my son with medication for AIDs. When my son dies from AIDs, you guys are going to blame me for not treating my son with medication for homosexuality, even though I treated him with medication for AIDs? Do you guys take this opportunity to trash people who don't believe homosexuality is a mental illness and doesn't need to be treated, when the child lost the battle against AIDs when the AIDs drug became ineffective?


How is that much different from Travolta's case? His son died from a physical illness which is seizures, not from Autism which is a mental illness that causes behavioral problems. He treated his son with anti-seizure drugs to fight the physical illness. But you guys blame him for not treating his son for Autism, a mental illness that cause behavior problems? Why do you guys take this opportunity to trash Scientology when his son died from seizure after the Travolta lost the battle against seizure when the anti-seizure drug became ineffective?

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Why do you guys take this opportunity to trash Scientology when his son died from seizure after the Travolta lost the battle against seizure when the anti-seizure drug became ineffective?

As I already stated, he tried one medication. One. That was it. Just one drug, then he threw up his hands and gave up. I find it hard to believe that John Travolta is stupid enough to believe that just because one drug failed, all the other drugs must also be ineffective.

Then again, he believes aliens flew through space in DC-10s.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

So, Atheism is just like Satanism.

Well, in most cases, Satanism is atheism.