[iBorg]

How much difference in speed will this actually make, e.g. in Photoshop, but also in iMovie and iDVD?

I could drop the 1Gig Ti from 60 to 40 Gig HD and save $100, then buy a faster 5400 drive with larger cache - how much difference in speed would I notice?

The "old" Ti's had a 5400rpm 60 Gig HD option - I can't imagine why Apple dropped this to a 4200rpm HD?

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE what Apple did for us with this upgrade! And I'm ordering one this morning - I'm just not sure which HD option I should go for, to get the most speed, without sacrificing HD space!

It's a great day.....



iBorg

[Leia Shoots Like a Girl]

It does make a large difference when opening PhotoShop files and working in iMovie, I would go for the faster drive.

[iBorg]

Originally posted by Leia Shoots Like a Girl:
It does make a large difference when opening PhotoShop files and working in iMovie, I would go for the faster drive.

Hmmmm - maybe opting for a $100 price reduction and a 40 Gig HD is a good idea. some of the 5400rpm HD's also have a larger cache - 8 MB (vs. 2 MB for the IBM Travelstar 60, for example), and, I think, even 16 MB cache - how much speed improvement would that give? I think that these larger cached HD's only come with 40 Gig max - would the larger Travelstar 60 Gig be noticeably slower than, say the 40GNX by IBM with larger cache?

I appreciate your help! DAMN, but this is a great day!!! I can't wait to get my order in!



iBorg

[domymel]

I agree it�s a great day, but before I place my order I wanna know what type of processor they use and if they have changed the heat sink. Imagine how hot the big modell would get if they hadn�t!
but nevertheless, the specs are much more than I had dreamt of

[jhunt5247]

Originally posted by iBorg:


Hmmmm - maybe opting for a $100 price reduction and a 40 Gig HD is a good idea. some of the 5400rpm HD's also have a larger cache - 8 MB (vs. 2 MB for the IBM Travelstar 60, for example), and, I think, even 16 MB cache - how much speed improvement would that give? I think that these larger cached HD's only come with 40 Gig max - would the larger Travelstar 60 Gig be noticeably slower than, say the 40GNX by IBM with larger cache?

I appreciate your help! DAMN, but this is a great day!!! I can't wait to get my order in!



iBorg

iBorg I hear ya. I didn't realize until I ordered it that they had dropped the 5400 RPM 60G drive. I was going to call apple back and get the 40G then get the GNX40.

I thought about it some more. The difference in price for me (using wife's education discount) was minus 94 dollars to get the 40g. I thought to myself, do I really want to be screwing around with this jewl as soon as I get it? (not that I am not qualified to do so), but instead I came to the conclusion that if it gave me problems (slow speed), then I would go out and buy a GNX later. I also figured by the time this came around, the GNX might be at 60G and atleast be cheaper.

I am sure I would notice the different in photoshop and other times, but for right now I just kept it as it was.

Besides it also gives me something to look forward to in the future (one sure way I could make my TiBook faster). Man I like that sound of that. I can't believe I am actually a new owner!

[iBorg]

Originally posted by jhunt5247:
I came to the conclusion that if it gave me problems (slow speed), then I would go out and buy a GNX later. I also figured by the time this came around, the GNX might be at 60G and atleast be cheaper.

I've come to agree with your thoughts - you're right - we'll have a larger, faster HD option in the near future! So, it's the 60 GB HD for me for now!

BTW - congrats on ordering the best damn laptop on earth!!!



iBorg

[iBorg]

PC World posted an interesting article today - about IBM's upcoming 80 GBTravelstar drive!

About HD speed, they quote:

"IBM additionally announced that it plans for a new class of Travelstar mobile hard disk drives with rotational speeds of 7,200 revolutions per minute. That compares to the 5,400 rpm speed of IBM's current fastest mobile disk drives and is similar to the speed of drives found in most desktop computers.

In contrast, the Travelstar 80GN announced Wednesday has a speed of 4,200 rpm. Drives at all three speeds will benefit from the enhanced Pixie Dust technology, said IBM."

So, I think I'll go for the standard 60 GB HD with the 1 GHz Ti, and wait for a high-speed 80+ Gig HD in the future!



iBorg

[iBorg]

Someone over at Macintouch speculated that battery drain was the reason for Apple not offering 5400rpm HD options with the new Ti's, particularly with the faster CPU's expecting to diminish battery time already. One reader stated that he'd read that battery drain with a 5400rpm drive was 50% greater.

Anyone have any info on this?

I'm still unsure of whether I'll swap out the 60 GB 4200rpm HD or not.



iBorg

[dadder]

Originally posted by iBorg:
PC World posted an interesting article today - about IBM's upcoming 80 GBTravelstar drive!

About HD speed, they quote:

"IBM additionally announced that it plans for a new class of Travelstar mobile hard disk drives with rotational speeds of 7,200 revolutions per minute. That compares to the 5,400 rpm speed of IBM's current fastest mobile disk drives and is similar to the speed of drives found in most desktop computers.



iBorg

Yeah, I read this too. What were they saying, first quarter 2003? That will rock.

[cowerd]

I think its cause 9.5mm drives are now the PB standard rather 12.5mm. And there seem to be no 5400rpm drives right now that are over 40GB.

The IBM and Toshiba drives haven't hit the market yet. The only 5400rpm 9.5mm drive is the IBM Travelstar 40GNX. The Toshiba MK6022GAX (60GB, 16mb cache) should be out very soon.

[Yose]

What are the warranty implications of upgrading your tibooks HDD? I have an external FW 7200rp drive now and its noticebly faster in PS7 - much quieter too. I would love to drop in a larger and faster drive.. i just dont want my warranty voided.


Any thoughts?

Cheers,

[UnixMac]

And once you install the new drive, what do you do? Boot up into OS X CD ROM and re-install 9 and X??? Is it that simple or is there more to it? And are there dip switches etc...

[justinkim]

Originally posted by UnixMac:
And once you install the new drive, what do you do? Boot up into OS X CD ROM and re-install 9 and X??? Is it that simple or is there more to it? And are there dip switches etc...

Yep, that's about all there is to it. It's a pretty easy upgrade.

[iBorg]

Has anyone been able to ascertain which 40 GB and 60 GB 4200rpm HD's (manufacturer and model) are included with the Ti's? If they have a larger cache than the "old" 5400 60GB Travelstar, would that help to speed up data transfer, to make up for slower rpms? The Travelstar 40GNX (?) was touted as being faster than similar 5400rpm speed drives because of 8 MB cache vs. 2 MB (as I remember).



iBorg

[jhunt5247]

Originally posted by iBorg:
Someone over at Macintouch speculated that battery drain was the reason for Apple not offering 5400rpm HD options with the new Ti's, particularly with the faster CPU's expecting to diminish battery time already. One reader stated that he'd read that battery drain with a 5400rpm drive was 50% greater.

Anyone have any info on this?

I'm still unsure of whether I'll swap out the 60 GB 4200rpm HD or not.



iBorg

50%? that sounds a little high. I personally, ordered the 40g drive on my system, and my IBM 40GNX is already sitting in front of me waiting for a powerbook enclosure to arrive so it can be nice and warm. If you hear any more on this subject, please let me know. The most I will be likely away from electrical power is 2 hours.. so I should be fine.. be I would still like to hear more on the subject.

[jhunt5247]

Originally posted by cowerd:
I think its cause 9.5mm drives are now the PB standard rather 12.5mm. And there seem to be no 5400rpm drives right now that are over 40GB.

The IBM and Toshiba drives haven't hit the market yet. The only 5400rpm 9.5mm drive is the IBM Travelstar 40GNX. The Toshiba MK6022GAX (60GB, 16mb cache) should be out very soon.

Yes, this sounds very much more logical. Well, atleast I will sleep better tonight, after hearing this

[jhunt5247]

Originally posted by Yose:
What are the warranty implications of upgrading your tibooks HDD? I have an external FW 7200rp drive now and its noticebly faster in PS7 - much quieter too. I would love to drop in a larger and faster drive.. i just dont want my warranty voided.


Any thoughts?

Cheers,

From what I have been told, this does not violate the APP in any way.

[jhunt5247]

Originally posted by UnixMac:
And once you install the new drive, what do you do? Boot up into OS X CD ROM and re-install 9 and X??? Is it that simple or is there more to it? And are there dip switches etc...

Well for me, I am just going to stick in OS/X 10.2 because I don't even want OS/9 on my system.. That is all there is to it.

[iBorg]

Originally posted by jhunt5247:
50%? that sounds a little high.

I think the poster on Macintouch was referring to a 50% increased battery drain required to run the 5400rpm HD as compared to the slower 4200rpm HD - only the fraction of power need for the HD, not total battery drain.

But that's just one post I've read - I have no facts to back him/her up - anyone have any info?



iBorg

[jhunt5247]

Originally posted by iBorg:
Has anyone been able to ascertain which 40 GB and 60 GB 4200rpm HD's (manufacturer and model) are included with the Ti's? If they have a larger cache than the "old" 5400 60GB Travelstar, would that help to speed up data transfer, to make up for slower rpms? The Travelstar 40GNX (?) was touted as being faster than similar 5400rpm speed drives because of 8 MB cache vs. 2 MB (as I remember).



iBorg

Hell that drive (IBM 40GNX) is even faster than the Thoshiba drive with 16k! (Toshiba MK4019GAX). Check it out http://www.barefeats.com/fire32.html

[jhunt5247]

Originally posted by iBorg:


I think the poster on Macintouch was referring to a 50% increased battery drain required to run the 5400rpm HD as compared to the slower 4200rpm HD - only the fraction of power need for the HD, not total battery drain.

But that's just one post I've read - I have no facts to back him/her up - anyone have any info?



iBorg

Oh, ok.. That may very well be true..

[JayTi]

my powerbook has a 5200 rpm drive in it....but that could be because I got a pre-production one, who knows with Apple...

[seanyepez]

I'm dropping the 60-gigabyte hard drive I get in my PowerBook in a desktop PC. I need something with more cache and speed in my PowerBook.

[Eug]

I'm still convinced that the 60 GB may be a 5400 rpm drive in some units, depending upon drive availability. Indeed, one wonders if they won't build some of the initial units with 5400 rpm drives to exhaust their supply stored up originally for use in the previous iteration of the Powerbook. Ie. They promise only a 4200, but you may get a 5400 if you're lucky and the moon is full.

This would be analagous to the situation when 4X CD-RW combo drives were specified for the iBook, yet many people were getting 8X drives.

I thought of downgrading to 40 GB, but then remembered the rule that one can never have enough disk space. Even if I eventually update the drive, 60 GBs will make a great backup drive. I just hope that those of us who ordered early are those getting the 5400 rpm drives.

P.S. Here's a good thread about the various drives.

[iBorg]

Originally posted by Eug:
I'm still convinced that the 60 GB may be a 5400 rpm drive in some units, depending upon drive availability. Indeed, one wonders if they won't build some of the initial units with 5400 rpm drives to exhaust their supply stored up originally for use in the previous iteration of the Powerbook. Ie. They promise only a 4200, but you may get a 5400 if you're lucky and the moon is full.

Hope you're right! That could mean that, for the first time, I/we would be rewarded for being early-buyers, by getting a bonus. This would be in stark contrast to my last 2 PowerBook purchases, a Wallstreet I in 1998, and a Pismo 500 in 2000 - within 2 weeks in 1998, "PDQ" Wallstreet II's came out, with improved video, brighter screen, and bigger HD - and within 1 month in 2000, rev. B Pismo's debuted with larger HD and brighter screen.

That's one of the reasons I was a little reluctant to be an "early buyer" of the new Ti - upgrades and bug fixes sure to follow!



iBorg

[slugslugslug]

Originally posted by Eug:
I'm still convinced that the 60 GB may be a 5400 rpm drive in some units, depending upon drive availability. Indeed, one wonders if they won't build some of the initial units with 5400 rpm drives to exhaust their supply stored up originally for use in the previous iteration of the Powerbook. Ie. They promise only a 4200, but you may get a 5400 if you're lucky and the moon is full.
...

I think the salesperson who told someone they were getting a 5400rpm drive was mistaken. From what I can tell from cursory research into the matter, there are no 5400 rpm 60 Gb drives on the market. If anyone finds a counterexample to this statement, post it here..

That would make Apples 4200-only decision logical. On the last TiBook rev, the highest-capacity drive was 40 Gig, so they could use a 5400rpm drive for it. Now if they offered 40/4200, 40/5400, and 60/4200, it'd confuse people as to what's really top-of-the-line. So they're keeping it simple..

But then I could just be totally wrong.

[Eug]

Originally posted by slugslugslug:


I think the salesperson who told someone they were getting a 5400rpm drive was mistaken. From what I can tell from cursory research into the matter, there are no 5400 rpm 60 Gb drives on the market. If anyone finds a counterexample to this statement, post it here..

That would make Apples 4200-only decision logical. On the last TiBook rev, the highest-capacity drive was 40 Gig, so they could use a 5400rpm drive for it. Now if they offered 40/4200, 40/5400, and 60/4200, it'd confuse people as to what's really top-of-the-line. So they're keeping it simple..

But then I could just be totally wrong.

Sorry, but although your first statement is likely correct, your last statement was also correct. (Read earlier on in the thread.)

[mikerally]

There can be many reasons Apple has chosen to do this.

But keep it in the back of your mind that you can always upgrade your hard drive, and that a lot of people won't really even notice.

If Apple chooses to change the drive configuration, they can do it quietly, quickly, and with little fanfare.

[Karim]

Data taken from IBM's website the power consumption of Travelstar drives are:

5400 RPM:
Startup max peak: 5.0W
Idle avg: 2.0W
Reading: 2.5W
Writing: 2.7W

4200 RPM:
Startup: 4.7W
Idle: 1.85W
Reading: 2.1W
Writing: 2.2W

So the extra wattage from the 5400's are:
Startup: 6%
Idle: 8%
Writing: 23%
Reading: 19%

Since you will mostly be Reading/Writing in video work the average extra power drain of the higher RPM drives is around 20% so it could equal anywhere from 30 minutes to 1 hour extra run time to have the slower drive.

Performance wise the difference is max media transfer of 262 mbits/sec (5400) versus 245 mbits/sec (4200) around 7% faster for 20% more power. For me, not worth the trade off.

If you are doing light work, the trade off is non-existant. 8% extra power, 7% faster. Cost/heat is the only relevant factor.

[UnixMac]

Can someone back up that the GNX is only 8% or so faster than the 60 Gig in the PB now?? Cause if so, I'm gonna save the $200+ and put it into new software or something.

[Eug]

Since you will mostly be Reading/Writing in video work the average extra power drain of the higher RPM drives is around 20% so it could equal anywhere from 30 minutes to 1 hour extra run time to have the slower drive.

I've asked this question before of people who have actually done the switch. While they do notice the speed difference, they say that for real world usage, they either don't notice a difference in battery time or else it's only like 5-10 minutes or something on a laptop that normally got over 2 hours.

30-60 minute loss though? Not a chance.

Do you actually expect your Powerbook to get 5 hours of battery life? To lose 1 hour would mean that you've lost 20% of battery time just from switching the drive. Remember, your drive is not writing all the time, and the hard drive doesn't use 100% of the power. So your numbers don't make sense.

Let me make some unscientific guesstimates.

Say the hard drive uses approximately 1/3rd of the total battery power. Say that the 5400 rpm drive uses about 20% extra power. So that's about a 6.5% increase in battery utilization. Say that total battery time is 2 hours on a 4200 rpm drive.

Using these (admittedly inaccurate) numbers, we get less than an 8 minute difference. This seems to mirror what end users are saying.

8 minutes is significant over 2 hours, but I don't know where you get this 1 hour number. Even if your TiBook could last 5 hours the difference using those numbers would only be 20 minutes.

[Karim]

I have an 800DVI and I swapped the stock drive with my 48GB Travelstar 5400RPM drive. My laptop gets around 2 hrs use in OSX 10.2.1 with highest performance settings.

The power consumption numbers are from IBM's travelstar site.

My comments on time saving range from my personal observations of run time to Apple's quote of 5 hours run time (which we all know is BS with OSX..)

The drive (in OSX) is rarely spun down so is almost always using idleing power (2.0 watts or 1.85 watts depending on RPM's which accounts for an 8% difference).

I mentioned than when doing video work, ie importing from a camera, rendering, exporting, encoding etc.. you will be almost constantly reading/writing to the drive resulting in about a 20% power difference between drives.

The transfer rates from IBM's specs show a 7% speed difference in max transfer rate from the drive. That doesn't account for difference in seek times which can affect perceived performance. But, as far as data getting to and from the drive in sustained operations, such as video, your only going to see 8% difference.

Now, I don't know what kind of drive the 60GB 4200RPM drive is that is being shipped in the new Powerbooks.

All I was comparing were the 4200RPM vs 5400RPM drives that are part of IBM's Travelstar lineup.

Until we know the make and model # of the actual drives Apple is providing their will be a margin of error. I'm willing to bet it won't be that great though.

[Eug]

Yes, but don't forget about everything else that needs power. eg. CPU, video card, screen, etc. It's a 20% power difference of the drive itself, but not the system overall.

[jhunt5247]

Originally posted by UnixMac:
Can someone back up that the GNX is only 8% or so faster than the 60 Gig in the PB now?? Cause if so, I'm gonna save the $200+ and put it into new software or something.

The correct specs for the IBM 40GNX are as follows:

Startup (max peak): 5.0W
Seek (average): 2.6W
Read (average): 2.5W
Write (average): 2.5W
Performance idle (average): 2.0W
Active idle (average): 1.3W
Low power idle (average): 0.85W
Standby (average): 0.25W
Sleep: 0.1W
Power consumption efficiency (watts/GB): 0.021

--

As far as that 8%, I believe that was a comparision with the IBM 48GH. Which is a much slower drive than the GNX. The GNX is really really fast, the best article I have found on it is here http://www.barefeats.com/fire32.html

[SoCal_BigFoot]

Originally posted by Karim:
I mentioned than when doing video work...

Well, for any serious video work you will need a dedicated firewire drive (with oxford chip). There is no sense having your OS, software and video data on the same internal drive. I'm gonna use 40GNX drive in an external firewire oxford case (OWC) for video capture, so I'm happy with 60GB 4200 internal drive.

[Karim]

The numbers used were comparing the IBM Travelstar 60GH (Only comes in 5400RPM) to a 40GN (Only comes in 4200RPM).

[Karim]

Your right about the error in the amount of run time that could be affected.

The PBG4 batteries are around 60Watt/hour aren't they for the DVI's so assuming for these purposes the computer can run for only 2 hours from a fully charged battery to fully drained thats 30 watts/hour.

The Hard Drive makes up around 10% of total system draw (idling/reading/writing approximation).

So a 20% affect on 10% is 2% overall system time.

So, the change in drive RPM's is not going to change the battery runtime by more than 2% of course performance is only 8% so it still seems kind of like a wash as far as being perceptiple.