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Catfish_Man · Aug 28, 2003, 01:00 PM

My dual 867 with 7B44 shows the progress bar for 5 seconds. tops. usually a good deal less than that. Startup really is a lot faster.

sandsl · Aug 28, 2003, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Boot times have always been superfast since Jaguar

Maybe, but theres a considerable difference between the speed of booting Jaguar and Panther.

Boot times have improved considerably.

besson3c · Aug 28, 2003, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by brainchild2b:
Zimphire:

When is the last time you submitted feedback to Apple? I recommend doing it every day about this, and so should everyone else. If enough people bitch apple will listen.

Why is this an important feature? Do you guys use Telnet as well?

I'd be happier with sFTP support in the Finder. I don't know why FTP still exists, seeing how telnet seems to be phased out pretty quickly.

Zadian · Aug 28, 2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by besson3c:
I'd be happier with sFTP support in the Finder. I don't know why FTP still exists, seeing how telnet seems to be phased out pretty quickly.

That's the feature i request from Apple since 10.0 - sFTP support in the Finder.

diamondsw · Aug 28, 2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by besson3c:
Why is this an important feature? Do you guys use Telnet as well?

I'd be happier with sFTP support in the Finder. I don't know why FTP still exists, seeing how telnet seems to be phased out pretty quickly.

Probably because of the large installed base of servers and clients. Most people who are telneting into a server can be told to upgrade to SSH. However, we have every joe-schmoe user out there FTP'ing software updates and the like, making FTP a very hard protocol to replace. Additionally, there just aren't anywhere near as many sFTP clients as FTP.

I switched to SCP when connecting to my home box. YMMV.

besson3c · Aug 28, 2003, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by diamondsw:
Probably because of the large installed base of servers and clients. Most people who are telneting into a server can be told to upgrade to SSH. However, we have every joe-schmoe user out there FTP'ing software updates and the like, making FTP a very hard protocol to replace. Additionally, there just aren't anywhere near as many sFTP clients as FTP.

I switched to SCP when connecting to my home box. YMMV.

Maybe there aren't many sFTP clients because there are more people using FTP for some reason, just like there are people that insist on using floppy drives and other old obsolete technology.

However, Apple should set a precident and do this right. Hacking into an FTP account maybe not be the most dangerous thing in the world, but I would bet that most people probably use the same password for their private FTP sites as they do their email (and other accounts). It just isn't cool when you can easily nab somebody's password.

In the case of public FTP access, wget or curl might be a better bet than FTP, but I would guess that public FTP has been replaced by downloading from webspace for the most part.

SYN · Aug 28, 2003, 03:16 PM

do file created in the terminal appear instantly (ie without clicing) in Finder windows?

brainchild2b · Aug 28, 2003, 03:17 PM

Because FTP is the standard for end users. I work with a webhosting company with 10,000 clients. Have you ever heard of a webhosting company that offers sFTP? There might be 3 "geeky" ones in the entire world.

Add that up that no major window FTP client supports sFTP and there you have it. FTP will be a standard until every client out there supports sFTP and all the hosting companies do as well.

cybergoober · Aug 28, 2003, 03:19 PM

Didn't see this mentioned yet...

You can once again activate the Screen Saver using hot corners. You've been able to set it since 7B21, I think. It just didn't work until now. That's really the only thing I had been missing. I had resorted using the "Lock Screen" item in the Keychain menu extra to immediately activate the Screen Saver.

besson3c · Aug 28, 2003, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by brainchild2b:
Because FTP is the standard for end users. I work with a webhosting company with 10,000 clients. Have you ever heard of a webhosting company that offers sFTP? There might be 3 "geeky" ones in the entire world.

Add that up that no major window FTP client supports sFTP and there you have it. FTP will be a standard until every client out there supports sFTP and all the hosting companies do as well.

A lot of people use Dreamweaver and GoLive for publishing stuff, and these clients support FTP as well as WebDAV. WebDAV can be secured, and while it has some issues, it may replace FTP as the publishing standard. I hope it or sFTP does.

Within my university, SFTP has replaced FTP. There are more than 3 geeky hosts in the entire world that offer sFTP or secure WebDAV. Personally, I wouldn't go with a host that didn't offer a secure solution for entering my password, and would discourage others from using any host that only provided this solution. It's really nothing that should be taken lightly.

While you're right that FTP is a standard, it's about time we moved that standard forward. It's a crappy standard.

sFTP clients:

- MacSFTP
- Transmit
- Secure Shell Client (Windows) www.ssh.com
- several others
- command line scp, sftp, etc.

Point being, there are decent clients on both Mac and Windows (probably many more on Windows I have omitted here) that offer sFTP support.

I understand that end users want FTP, but end users basically don't want any sort of change. The existence of the floppy drive today is a good example! It is fair for a webhosting environment (I run one a much smaller one too) to offer plain old FTP, but secure replacements should be strongly encouraged at every opportunity so that data is not compromised.

Apple should not push the FTP standard.

Horsepoo!!! · Aug 28, 2003, 03:55 PM

Extra! Extra! People love outdated technology!!!

It's a fact of life folks.

People prefer FTP over sFTP.
People prefer Windows over OS X.
Lots have passionate sex with OS 9 every night.

But seriously...people don't love outdated tech...they're just ignorant about the latest tech.

People use FTP over sFTP because they don't know about sFTP.

People use Windows over OS X because they don't know about OS X.

People that use OS 9 over OS X are in some sort of denial phase in their lives.

Nobody in their right minds would ignore sFTP or, for example, OS X after knowing more about it and sFTP.

People are apparently scared of the internet because it opens them to remote attacks. OH YEAH? IS THAT REALLY SO? Shut up! You don't say. If people were so ****ing scared, they'd all be using sFTP, they'd all be using a more secure OS such as OS X (Security from obscurity? Maybe, maybe not...but even if it wasn't a secure OS, we're still getting some security from this obscurity Windows folks are so fond of telling me.)

Too many people are ignorant. This has to change. Computers are part of everyone's frickin' lives...so everyone should do a little effort and learn what the **** a computer is and which computer is best, which software is best, etc..

diamondsw · Aug 28, 2003, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by besson3c:
While you're right that FTP is a standard, it's about time we moved that standard forward. It's a crappy standard.

Now that I can agree with wholeheartedly.

Originally posted by besson3c:
sFTP clients:

- MacSFTP
- Transmit
- Secure Shell Client (Windows) www.ssh.com
- several others
- command line scp, sftp, etc.

Point being, there are decent clients on both Mac and Windows (probably many more on Windows I have omitted here) that offer sFTP support.

Actually, you would be very surprised then at the dearth of sFTP clients on Windows, at least that are freeware to cheap shareware. I searched for a while and couldn't find one (which is why I use SCP). FTP, meanwhile, has dozens of clients, is built into web browsers, and even into the OS. It would be great to secure it, but I don't see enough of a push to do that. Sort of like IPv6 (sadly).

Originally posted by besson3c:
I understand that end users want FTP, but end users basically don't want any sort of change. The existence of the floppy drive today is a good example! It is fair for a webhosting environment (I run one a much smaller one too) to offer plain old FTP, but secure replacements should be strongly encouraged at every opportunity so that data is not compromised.

Apple should not push the FTP standard.

Well, I'd say that Apple should offer complete FTP support (since most of the world does need it), but also should push a secure replacement. Like with telnet - OS X 10.0 shipped with telnet as default. Later, they disabled it and enabled SSH. End users didn't see much difference, and telnet is still there (as it has a lot of uses beyond just connecting to remote shells). We'll get there, but we'll need a hybrid approach for a while to build critical mass.

diamondsw · Aug 28, 2003, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Too many people are ignorant. This has to change. Computers are part of everyone's frickin' lives...so everyone should do a little effort and learn what the **** a computer is and which computer is best, which software is best, etc..

I have a dream...

Brazuca · Aug 28, 2003, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Did you just call me Horsepoo!? The nerves of some people.

I hope you got this joke out of your system.

Horsepoo!!! · Aug 28, 2003, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by Brazuca:
I hope you got this joke out of your system.

No...this joke is timeless. I'll use it whenever I can.

Anand · Aug 28, 2003, 04:50 PM

From chime to desktop is 40 seconds on a 933 G4 with 1.5 GB ram and 7B44. Jaguar 10.2.6 is about 5-10 seconds slower.

OwlBoy · Aug 28, 2003, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Extra! Extra! People love outdated technology!!!

Lots have passionate sex with OS 9 every night.

http://www.OS9porn.com

-Owl

Zadian · Aug 28, 2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by diamondsw:
Actually, you would be very surprised then at the dearth of sFTP clients on Windows, at least that are freeware to cheap shareware. I searched for a while and couldn't find one (which is why I use SCP).

On windows i use WinSCP2 for sFTP and putty for ssh. Both are freeware programms (as far as i know).

And just to add a name to the Mac sFTP clients: fugu (earned an apple award at WWDC this year).

Peter · Aug 28, 2003, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by OwlBoy:
http://www.OS9porn.com

-Owl

Hey that link doesnt work. you lie!

i cant tell any difference between 7B44 and 7B49. Personally.

diamondsw · Aug 28, 2003, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by Zadian:
On windows i use WinSCP2 for sFTP and putty for ssh. Both are freeware programms (as far as i know).

And just to add a name to the Mac sFTP clients: fugu (earned an apple award at WWDC this year).

<checks his copy of WinSCP2 for sFTP>

Hey, whaddya know, it is in there!

- - e r i k - - · Aug 28, 2003, 06:18 PM

Anyway, back to 7B49. I only had 7b44 installed for 12 hours and I got about 1 hour of real usage out of that, so I can't really comment on the latest differences.

Bittorent works now once again, everything is stable and fine. And fast. But I'm used to speed now having used Panther for the last months.

The new sheets took some time to get used to, but they are REALLY NICE. And fast. Sheets really rocks in Panther.

Safari is at 1.1 v94, mail is build 1.3 v589 (up one build from 7b44). The only difference I can tell is that there's a new Compose New Message-icon.

You still can not type the shadow angle directly, nor can you hold shift to lock it in 45� increcements. Disappointing.

The Calculator icon now reflects the new metal buttons. The buttons are not really bdonka donk butt fugly once you get used to them.

And that's about it really. No crashes to report of yet (still a short time usage with no real hammering of the system to speak of).

brainchild2b · Aug 28, 2003, 06:19 PM

winscp2 is great for me and you, I use it at work all the time, but it's not as easy as other ftp clients, and still has rough geek edges. WebDAV is something "real" webhosts won't support, and pretty much what cpanel (control panel web host management system) supports is what will drive the file transfers for a while. WebDAV just has too many bugs to work out.

If dreamweaver and frontpage support sFTP this would be a great start!

Webscreamer · Aug 28, 2003, 06:27 PM

Here is a list of bugs and just stupid stuff I found in Panther 7B49 that I think should be fixed before release. Sorry if they are note all new features added in this build.

I would like to keep updating this list with every build we get... Hopefully by the time 10.3 GM arrives we will not need this list at all.

- One of the largest bugs now that *bug* me ;p is that now that Apple had changed Sheets now, the Finder sheets(Like when you want to customize the Toolbar, or use "Go to Folder...")go straight up and do NOT match the other ones. Also, they must fix what it look like when the Sheets fly out...

In other Applications...
http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/...top_sheets.jpg

In Finder...
http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/...one_sheets.jpg

- In the Dock, when a Application is already hidden and you control click on an Application in the Dock, the menu still says "Hide" when it should say "Show", even though you just have to click the icon to show. Oh well, BUT, should be fixed!

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/...ady_hidden.jpg

- In the Finder Prefrences you can turn off all of the HDs, CDs, Network, and stuff. But then in the Finder Sidebar, all you get is a line. Shouldn't this line disappear if nothing is above it?

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/...ld_be_gone.jpg

- In Disk Copy in Jaguar, we got a menu when we control clicked on the Dock icon with features. In Disk Utilities in 10.3, we lost those features.

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/...e_diskcopy.jpg

- When the Dock is on the left, the menu alignment is off. Simple fix ;p

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/...off_center.jpg

- Quicktime buttons were redone in 10.3, but the buttons do not match yet. The X - + are too black.

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/...ttons_diff.jpg

- This is my biggest fear. Some apps are fixed now, abut others are not...weird. BUT, in save panels for applications if you have an Application(such as Mail) in it, you can save into Mail. But it is in the package Contents. This will really scare people who are new users...or even me when i can't find my stuff if I click the wrong button! Yikes!!!!!!!!

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/..._into_apps.jpg

- Some Utilities and apps still have the old unlock and lock icons. Should be replaced to match the new ones.

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/...old_unlock.jpg

- In the Finder prefs, there is a weird line that appears once in a while. Picky ;p

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/...nder_prefs.jpg

- I managed to force quit apps while opening and completely throw off the Open App arrow until I logged out.

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/..._alignment.jpg

- The right side button on windows is ugly now ;0

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/...utton_ugly.jpg

- In the DVD Player app, the AppleScript menu logo has the old fashion one, now replaced in all other apps with a new gray one.

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/..._menu_icon.jpg

- When you change to graphite theme, the Stop-Light buttons stay multi-colored and not graphite. This has been around for a long long time.

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/...s_graphite.jpg

- Middle Minimize button is ugly now in all apps... they just have redone these. Many little programs like this.

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/...button_off.jpg

and...
http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/...utton_down.jpg

- Safari build v94

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/...safari_v94.jpg

- New file selection boxes

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/...tion_boxes.jpg

- new Calculator icon

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/...lator_icon.jpg

- Build Number

http://www.webscreamer.com/personal/...ild_number.jpg

nforcer · Aug 28, 2003, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by sandsl:
Disk Copy and Disk Utility have merged - so you burn images through disk utility, as well as repair, reformat disks etc.

Mounting of disk images happens automatically when you double-click them without having to launch Disk Utility. In reality a small system app called "DiskImageMounter " is used which has no dock icon and simply shows a window with the mounting process, then disappears when done - kind of like when you copy a file from somewhere to somewhere else.

Thanks for answering my question. The integrated disk image mounting process should be a good improvement. I have one more quick question concerning this particular feature.

If a user drags and drops a folder or volume onto the Disk Utility window, does it automatically prompt the user to specify a location to save the soon to be Disk Image of the folder/volume contents that were dragged and dropped onto it? This is a great timesaver in Disc Copy right now, that I would hate to see removed.

gorickey · Aug 28, 2003, 07:43 PM

B49 breaks the "Command+Q" quit feature of the new command-tab app switcher...

Reported already to Apple.

Art Vandelay · Aug 28, 2003, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by gorickey:
B49 breaks the "Command+Q" quit feature of the new command-tab app switcher...

Reported already to Apple.

...and the Command-H feature too.

sandsl · Aug 28, 2003, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by nforcer:
If a user drags and drops a folder or volume onto the Disk Utility window, does it automatically prompt the user to specify a location to save the soon to be Disk Image of the folder/volume contents that were dragged and dropped onto it? This is a great timesaver in Disc Copy right now, that I would hate to see removed.

That feature has been removed. You can no longer drop folders or volumes onto the Disk Utility window or its icon (either in dock or finder) in order to build a disk image.

You now have to use the menu "Images" and
Select "New" > "Image From Folder.."/ "Image From Device.."

I suggest you give feedback to Apple.

squish · Aug 28, 2003, 10:42 PM

wow that sucks

JonoG4 · Aug 29, 2003, 12:32 AM

Anyone else have some folder icons turned into Stuffit .bin icons?

davidb224 · Aug 29, 2003, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by JonoG4:
Anyone else have some folder icons turned into Stuffit .bin icons?

I found that (with B44) when I tried to do an archive and install instead of a clean install. Later, I did a clean install and those Stuffit icons (where there should be a folder) all went away.

Art Vandelay · Aug 29, 2003, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by JonoG4:
Anyone else have some folder icons turned into Stuffit .bin icons?

Clear your LaunchServices cache in /Library/Caches/.

JonoG4 · Aug 29, 2003, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by Art Vandelay:
Clear your LaunchServices cache in /Library/Caches/.

Hmm, just tried that and the icons are still there. Maybe I need to do a restart, though I did relaunch the Finder.

Art Vandelay · Aug 29, 2003, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by JonoG4:
Hmm, just tried that and the icons are still there. Maybe I need to do a restart, though I did relaunch the Finder.

Forgot to mention that. It requires a restart.

Art Vandelay · Aug 29, 2003, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by JonoG4:
Anyone else have some folder icons turned into Stuffit .bin icons?

Mine turned into Disk Image icons.

JonoG4 · Aug 29, 2003, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by Art Vandelay:
Mine turned into Disk Image icons.

Thanks, it worked :-)

A few builds ago I had an icon or two turn into Disk Image icons also. I just ignored them then, but when every new Folder is a .bin icon it can get annoying

Simon · Aug 29, 2003, 03:45 AM

Originally posted by Webscreamer:
Here is a list of bugs and just stupid stuff I found in Panther 7B49 that I think should be fixed before release. Sorry if they are note all new features added in this build.

Webscreamer, that's a great list.

It would be to see it get updated with the newer build releases.

I just hope you sent the list to Apple as well!

iFix Rene · 04:54 AM

I posted this on Apple Insider forum as well
and thought to post it here for those who do
not attend that forum:

Although you can still add your Home or favorite folders to the
horizontal FinderToolbar by dragging them onto it as in 10.2,
the items are NOT springloaded.

(Apple way of forcing us to use sidebar?)

I really hope they fix that.

also it is rather annoying that lots of
windows now open glued to top left corner,
like when you open a newly created folder
on the desktop for instance

Webscreamer · Aug 29, 2003, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Simon:
Webscreamer, that's a great list.

It would be to see it get updated with the newer build releases.

I just hope you sent the list to Apple as well!

Sadly enough.. I am not an ADC member ;-( Please don't yell!

******I WOULD really like someone to send this list in to Apple though!******

I am thinking about joining ADC though, so don't shoot me yet..

cybergoober · Aug 29, 2003, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Webscreamer:
- When you change to graphite theme, the Stop-Light buttons stay multi-colored and not graphite. This has been around for a long long time.

Not the case here...

Webscreamer · Aug 29, 2003, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by cybergoober:
Not the case here...

Sorry.. I didn't clarify that. Try it with Finder Windows... you will see

KidRed · Aug 29, 2003, 10:41 AM

Just to clarify, there is no 7B49.

SMacTech · Aug 29, 2003, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by KidRed:
Just to clarify, there is no 7B49.

WTF are you talking about?
Then what is it I downloaded from ADC with 7B49 shown in the About This Mac ?

cybergoober · Aug 29, 2003, 11:59 AM

I replaced the files on my server with pics I just snapped of a Finder window. Accidentally gave them the same name...

Still don't have that problem here.

JKT · Aug 29, 2003, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by cybergoober:
Not the case here...

Actually, if you take a close look at the minimise button in the absence of the x - +, there is a big difference between it and the x and + buttons - notice how the dark shade is much broader and also how the button appears a touch larger too.

Edit: or is it just a JPEG artefact?

- - e r i k - - · Aug 29, 2003, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by JKT:
Actually, if you take a close look at the minimise button in the absence of the x - +, there is a big difference between it and the x and + buttons - notice how the dark shade is much broader and also how the button appears a touch larger too.

Edit: or is it just a JPEG artefact?

No it's not. I believe this was introduced in the latest build as it's not in 7B39 (which I have installed at work).

Impressing what I can do and type while under the influence of beer

- - e r i k - - · Aug 29, 2003, 12:28 PM

Oh, I had these screenshots of the Pro interface: It's f*cking amazing.

http://verdens.navle.no/arkiv/images...er/prosave.png

http://verdens.navle.no/arkiv/images...r/prosave2.png

Webscreamer · Aug 29, 2003, 12:56 PM

I think this is because Apple must have redone the buttons and a few interface things. The pixels around the sunken buttons are smoother than in previous builds and in Jaguar. These are stupid little things that I am sure will be fixed in future builds...

The more I use 7B49 the more I feel mow much work is actually left and how beta it still feels. Personally, I think 7B44 was more bug free...on the UI view of things.

Like I said in my loooong post above, the Finder sheets and other little things do not match the rest of the system at all anymore!

Webscreamer · 01:11 PM

One little thing... don't you agree that the Finder Sidebar icons(such as Pictures and Movies) and the Toolbar icons(such as Find and Eject) look GOD awful and so old... and OS X Public Beta looking

Time to redo these Apple... they look like @ss.

Also, if they redo those icons, they will have to redo the Folder Icons in the Users folder...

Zadian · Aug 29, 2003, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Webscreamer:
One little thing... don't you agree that the Finder Sidebar icons(such as Pictures and Movies) and the Toolbar icons(such as Find and Eject) look GOD awful and so old... and OS X Public Beta looking

No, i don't agree. I actually like them, but that's just a matter of taste.

KidRed · Aug 29, 2003, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by SMacTech:
WTF are you talking about?
Then what is it I downloaded from ADC with 7B49 shown in the About This Mac ?

Must be ADC only then. Nevermind, disregard please