[SYN]

I could see my 70 year old mother wanting to click an icon, she reaches for her mouse, goes to click the icon, and the Finder updates and the icon changes or moves because files in that folder have been updated.
How can you work around this UI problem?

That's ridiculous. You're saying Apple shouldn't implement this feature in case the files updated at the exact moment your mother clicked on that file, which obviously is not very probable. However, in the current implementation, the only time when the files will move is the exact moment when you click on your file... You're contradicting your own self.

[Mr Scruff]

Originally posted by SMacTech:
As I said earlier, it would be a great thing for live updating or file notification to be implemented in the OS and a cool feature to see the changes.
But the problem is how to implement live updating, at what intervals, which folders and so on.
I could just see you Finder window above if it was sorted by date and as each one changed, the order of the files in the window changed.
How fast should the updates occur?
I could see my 70 year old mother wanting to click an icon, she reaches for her mouse, goes to click the icon, and the Finder updates and the icon changes or moves because files in that folder have been updated.
How can you work around this UI problem?
diamondsw : you are so bright and full of wisdom this morning. How would you implement this feature so these types of problems could be avoided?

But the alternative is that your mother goes to click on an icon that represents a file that no longer exists. At the point she clicks on it, it will disappear - probably convincing her that the act of clicking deleted the file.

I really cannot understand why you think that the Finder not displaying the correct state of the filesystem could ever be construed as useful or user friendly...

[jasong]

If I recall correctly, the way OS 9 handled this was to add the new file to the end of the list. This keeps the view of the file system up-to-date and doesn't move the icon you are reaching as you reach for it.

I will agree with the chorus that the current system of updating the window when you click on it is a more likely cause of the moving icon issue than a live updating window.

-- Jason

[blixa]

Originally posted by jasong:
If I recall correctly, the way OS 9 handled this was to add the new file to the end of the list. This keeps the view of the file system up-to-date and doesn't move the icon you are reaching as you reach for it.

-- Jason

Actually, this is how Windows works, and it drives me crazy.

[starman]

Originally posted by blixa:
Actually, this is how Windows works, and it drives me crazy.

I actually prefer that since you always know where the file's going to be. I can't tell you how many times I'd download ReallyCoolApp but the file's called InstallReallyCoolApp.sit and I go nuts figuring out where the friggin' file is. At least with Windows I can just hit Page End and get to the file.

Mike

[SMacTech]

Originally posted by SYN:
That's ridiculous. You're saying Apple shouldn't implement this feature in case the files updated at the exact moment your mother clicked on that file, which obviously is not very probable. However, in the current implementation, the only time when the files will move is the exact moment when you click on your file... You're contradicting your own self.

How am I contradicting myself? I am asking a question of how this UI updating Finder could be implemented without confusion.
I am stating that when the Finder is the front active app, a user sees a file, goes to click on it, but the OS or some app, god knows what updated the FS and the file listing or icon moves, or is deleted at that moment.
Just how is that user friendly?
Again I am not saying this should NOT be a feature in the OS, as I even stated my own application development would benefit from it.
After programming for 25 years, I have learned to think in a model of the 'stupid user syndrome'.
You are implying I am arguing against it, when I am merely pointing out the ramifications of it for the mere mortal Mac users.

I guess I derailed this Panther thread and Mr. Scruff has started one on this very subject. So let our discussion continue over there.

[Epiliptop]

Originally posted by SMacTech:
How am I contradicting myself? I am asking a question of how this UI updating Finder could be implemented without confusion.
I am stating that when the Finder is the front active app, a user sees a file, goes to click on it, but the OS or some app, god knows what updated the FS and the file listing or icon moves, or is deleted at that moment.
Just how is that user friendly?

Er, I don't think you are getting the point the nice people above you are trying to make. With the current system of updating the Finder, what you say is absolutely going to happen everytime a non-Finder app updates the FS. (ie, the user clicks, THEN the Finder window is updated). In other words, with how the Finder works now, the icons moving around is GUARANTEED. However, with a proper kqueue (et al), the Finder window would most likely have been updated long before you actually try and click, making the target icon exactly where you want it. With the way it is now, when you actually try and click, the icon is not guaranteed to be where it _should_ be. If you have EVER used a FS browser such as Nautilus (in which files are updated QUITE frequently, at least for me in certain directories), having the icons EXACTLY where I expect them to be is rather helpful.

[d0ubled0wn]

Originally posted by starman:
I actually prefer that since you always know where the file's going to be. I can't tell you how many times I'd download ReallyCoolApp but the file's called InstallReallyCoolApp.sit and I go nuts figuring out where the friggin' file is. At least with Windows I can just hit Page End and get to the file.

Mike

I agree. It isn't intuitive (you expect a sorted list to stay sorted), but it took me all of 2 seconds to figure out the behaviour in Windows. Really useful when downloading a bunch of files into an already populated folder.

[passmaster16]

Originally posted by gsxrboy:
Does it correctly auto send away messages now?

That would be nice. Oh, and updating the away messages more frequently would help too. People will put away messages up and change them yet ichat still displays the previous away message.

[Brass]

Originally posted by SMacTech:
As I said earlier, it would be a great thing for live updating or file notification to be implemented in the OS and a cool feature to see the changes.
But the problem is how to implement live updating, at what intervals, which folders and so on.
I could just see you Finder window above if it was sorted by date and as each one changed, the order of the files in the window changed.
How fast should the updates occur?
I could see my 70 year old mother wanting to click an icon, she reaches for her mouse, goes to click the icon, and the Finder updates and the icon changes or moves because files in that folder have been updated.
How can you work around this UI problem?
diamondsw : you are so bright and full of wisdom this morning. How would you implement this feature so these types of problems could be avoided?

You know, I can't for the life of me think how this would happen to you 70 yo grandmother. How is she going to be having the filesystem change on her while she's about to click on something in the Finder? Any situation i can think of for most people for this to happen is so ridiculously fictictious and fabricated it's not funny.

And as others have said, it's far more likely to happen with the current system. The Finder window will update when you click on it moving your icon out of the way by the time you get to it.

The real clincher here is that Mac OS 9 kept everything nicely up to date and I've NEVER once heard of anybody having a problem with that, and yet Many MANY people have a problem with the way Mac OS X 10.2.x currently does things.

Perhaps Apple could add a system preference to toggle this feature just for you?

[Catfish_Man]

Basically, the guy you were responding to is confused. It wouldn't update at regular intervals (polling), it would update when something happened (notifications). It seems like it would be very difficult to click an icon AND change the files around at the same time, so the "granny" problem would never come up.

[Brass]

SMacTech:

Having done a little programing using notifications, I expect that if Apple were to do this, they would do it properly and there would be a different notification for each type of FS update, and each notification would be dealt with apporiately by the Finder and cause little or no disruption to icon positions. At a minimum, I would expect 3 different types of notifications equivalent to:

New File created in such-and-such a directory
File removed in such-and-such a directory
File changed in such-and-such a directory

(The third notification could actually be replaced with several different notifications depending on the types of changes, but that might be stretching things a bit.)

Now I'm sure that Apple would be clever enough to make the theoretically improved Finder deal with each notification appropriately.

If they wished, they could make it respond only to the first two (added and removed) and completely ignore the third one (changed) altogether, in which case most of your problems (with file being frequently re-sorted in list view) would just not happen, only some of the metadata in list view might get outdated, so I doubt they'd do it this way.

Alternatively they could deal with the "File changed" notifications in an intelligent manner that might update the information shown in List View, but not resort the view (and perhaps deselect the column heading to indicate that it is no longer sorted). If you wanted the view resorted, just click on the column heading again (as usual).

For adding files, as others have said, they could always add the new file to the end of the list, in which case it would never muck up your ordering or move icons around (again, the column heading should be deselected to indicate that the list is no longer sorted).

The only potential for your supposed problems that I can see (if things were done in a moderately intelligent fashion) would be deleting files, where files would have to move up the list to fill in the gap where the deleted files were. But realistically, this is so incredibly unlikely to happen when you're about to click on something else in that view.

[Synotic]

Originally posted by Brass:
SMacTech:

Having done a little programing using notifications, I expect that if Apple were to do this, they would do it properly and there would be a different notification for each type of FS update, and each notification would be dealt with apporiately by the Finder and cause little or no disruption to icon positions. At a minimum, I would expect 3 different types of notifications equivalent to:

New File created in such-and-such a directory
File removed in such-and-such a directory
File changed in such-and-such a directory

(The third notification could actually be replaced with several different notifications depending on the types of changes, but that might be stretching things a bit.)

Now I'm sure that Apple would be clever enough to make the theoretically improved Finder deal with each notification appropriately.

If they wished, they could make it respond only to the first two (added and removed) and completely ignore the third one (changed) altogether, in which case most of your problems (with file being frequently re-sorted in list view) would just not happen, only some of the metadata in list view might get outdated, so I doubt they'd do it this way.

Alternatively they could deal with the "File changed" notifications in an intelligent manner that might update the information shown in List View, but not resort the view (and perhaps deselect the column heading to indicate that it is no longer sorted). If you wanted the view resorted, just click on the column heading again (as usual).

For adding files, as others have said, they could always add the new file to the end of the list, in which case it would never muck up your ordering or move icons around (again, the column heading should be deselected to indicate that the list is no longer sorted).

The only potential for your supposed problems that I can see (if things were done in a moderately intelligent fashion) would be deleting files, where files would have to move up the list to fill in the gap where the deleted files were. But realistically, this is so incredibly unlikely to happen when you're about to click on something else in that view.

I also can't understand his reasoning... What folders are commonly updated live that would cause jumping icons? I know that this kind of thing happens in the System/Library folders by I don't know why she would be there anyways...

[Peabo]

7B59 has a new intro movie to all previous builds of Panther (yes it's newer than the 'floating snow' one) which reatures Royksopp's Eple as the bg-music!

If anyone knows where to find it on the CD, tell me and I'll post it :I

[Busemann]

Originally posted by z0ne81:
7B59 has a new intro movie to all previous builds of Panther (yes it's newer than the 'floating snow' one) which reatures Royksopp's Eple as the bg-music!

If anyone knows where to find it on the CD, tell me and I'll post it :I

Really!? R�yksopp! Thats awesome (and norwegian )

Please post it..

[Peabo]

Originally posted by Busemann:
Really!? R�yksopp! Thats awesome (and norwegian )

Please post it..

I dunno where it is hidden on the install CD

[moonmonkey]

Originally posted by KidRed:
-Why would a hidden app need a menu option to show it when all you need to do is click on it rather then the more skilled click-hold-scroll up-release click on a show menu option? If you want it to show, then click on it.

This should be fixed! if your argument holds true then the "Open" menu should be removed from the file menu in the finder, nobody uses it, as there are easier ways (double clicking).

Our OS should be perfect, this needs to be fixed.

[Peabo]

Also you can now have text smoothing for fonts all the way down to 4pt!

[gorickey]

Originally posted by moonmonkey:
Our OS should be perfect...

Haha, indeed. "Should" be.

[SMacTech]

Originally posted by Brass:
SMacTech:

Having done a little programing using notifications, I expect that if Apple were to do this, they would do it properly and there would be a different notification for each type of FS update, and each notification would be dealt with apporiately by the Finder and cause little or no disruption to icon positions. At a minimum, I would expect 3 different types of notifications equivalent to:

New File created in such-and-such a directory
File removed in such-and-such a directory
File changed in such-and-such a directory

(The third notification could actually be replaced with several different notifications depending on the types of changes, but that might be stretching things a bit.)

Now I'm sure that Apple would be clever enough to make the theoretically improved Finder deal with each notification appropriately.

If they wished, they could make it respond only to the first two (added and removed) and completely ignore the third one (changed) altogether, in which case most of your problems (with file being frequently re-sorted in list view) would just not happen, only some of the metadata in list view might get outdated, so I doubt they'd do it this way.

Alternatively they could deal with the "File changed" notifications in an intelligent manner that might update the information shown in List View, but not resort the view (and perhaps deselect the column heading to indicate that it is no longer sorted). If you wanted the view resorted, just click on the column heading again (as usual).

For adding files, as others have said, they could always add the new file to the end of the list, in which case it would never muck up your ordering or move icons around (again, the column heading should be deselected to indicate that the list is no longer sorted).

The only potential for your supposed problems that I can see (if things were done in a moderately intelligent fashion) would be deleting files, where files would have to move up the list to fill in the gap where the deleted files were. But realistically, this is so incredibly unlikely to happen when you're about to click on something else in that view.

Brass, thanks for the well thought out reply. First of all I am not confused about this as one poster stated.
I am only stating what I see as some problems with a live updating model in the Finder and how could it be handled to provide the best user experience for everyone. This would include the power users, casual users and my 70 yr old mom < not my grandmother >
The current system is broken, I agree with that and we need something better. But just what is the better solution? I NEVER said don't do it, or I don't want it and I even said I myself as a developer can benefit from the addition of a OS level notification API.
It is quite obvious that some posters are not reading everything that I am saying, but that's OK, I do the same thing when reading other posts.

Back on the topic of Panther - 7B59 has enabled me to finally use it as my production OS, on my cube, pismo PB and dual 867. I have not had any KPs or loss of audio or networking after sleep.

I have noticed that in mail.app, my POP messages are not being removed from the server when using the Remove Now button in Prefs>Accounts>Advanced

[alex_kac]

Originally posted by passmaster16:
That would be nice. Oh, and updating the away messages more frequently would help too. People will put away messages up and change them yet ichat still displays the previous away message.

Here is what you need:

http://macupdate.com/info.php/id/11956

Its awesome. And integrates perfectly within iChat.

[Boondoggle]

Have they fixed the persistant finder bug that prevents you from selecting the last item in a column with the mouse (sometimes)?

I did a search on this but could not find it.

[dUbio]

Is it still possible to tweak your internet speed (in os 10.2 you could do it it to add a few line's in a document using the terminal) in panther or is it done for you this time.

[Brass]

Originally posted by SMacTech:
Brass, thanks for the well thought out reply. First of all I am not confused about this as one poster stated.

No worries, I do what I can. Although I don't entirely agree with your concerns, I do understand them.

my 70 yr old mom < not my grandmother >

Yes, I realised my mistake well after I posted. Sorry about that - appologise to your mum for me

Mine's also not that far off 70, but I still think of 70-yo people as grandparents and not parents... doh!

[d0ubled0wn]

Just installed 7b59 as my production system (clean install preserving user accounts.) I am very impressed with this build, it feels oh so close to being finished.

A few welcome observations...

� The quartz slowdown has been fixed. Quicktime movies, DVDs play smoothly while dragging transparent terminal windows and finder windows around.

� System Prefs crash bug has been fixed.

� My god I love Expose

� DVD Player now shows DVD menus properly. Previous builds displayed only a black screen.

� Resource hungry apps like dvd2one used to bog my system down (Jaguar, dual 1.25, 768MB ram) with much disk thrashing and slow UI response. This no longer happens

� My god I love Expose

And a few outstanding bugs...

� Finder prefs => Sidebar has a cosmetic line bug.

� Address Book needs serious work. Edit an address, then scrolling up and down causes mucho cosmetic problems.

� Hard drives should not be ejectable from the Finder!!! I have two HDs, the 2nd shows up with an eject button next to it in the finder.

[gorickey]

Originally posted by d0ubled0wn:
Just installed 7b59 as my production system (clean install preserving user accounts.)

On your production system??!!

Yikes.

[laxthxdude]

I also have it on my prod. system. Its a pretty solid build, however I just had to reboot due to a bug: My account was set to a screensaver with password. The other user was logged in under the second account. I choose to switch users - it flipped to my account but nothing I did would allow me to use the keyboard to type my password. It was like the keyboard wasn't there. Switch back to the other account was OK - I just couldn't get into mine.

Other than that, heres what I've noticed:
1) Faster. Across the board. Dual 1.25. Everything pretty much launches in 1 bounce or less.
2) Toast 6 doesn't work - won't install.
3) Cisco VPN works fine.
4) EyeTV works fine.
5) Finder is much improved, but can still use some under the hood work (esp. when working with SMB)
6) Toast 5.2 works fine
7) Love the fast user switching
8) Can't run more than 1 copy of iTunes (even switching users - it says its already running for the other user)
9) Safari (v1.1) is solid. Crashed once with a flash site. Its just as fast as IE on Windows.
10) Serious under the hood stuff: doesn't matter what the process is taking (even 100% CPU), the system remain fluid and slick.
11) iChat signs out when switching users
12) Quicktime performance (v6.4) is back on track (its was limping along in 7B53)
12) Word launches in 1 bounce.
13) Konfabulator seems to have some issues


thats all for now...

[gorickey]

How do (non-Apple) "menu extras" play in Panther? Any haxie needed to make them work?

[teszeract]

I went to an Apple presentation a couple of days ago - of Panther and the G5 down down under here in NZ. Afterwards there were demos running of Panther in the foyer - not allowed to touch because "its beta" they said.

The woman operating the mac showed the finder off - but I'm sure I remember somewhere in the early info about Panther that the Finder had an 'iTunes-like' search feature. I took this to mean live filtering of files/results. But the demo showed the normal search that we see in Jag? Any input here?? If its regular type 'n press enter search, I'm VERY disappointed.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by d0ubled0wn:
� My god I love Expose

Ahem... it's Expos�, not Expose.

From Merriam Webster:

ex�pose
Pronunciation: ik-'spOz
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): ex�posed; ex�pos�ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French exposer, from Latin exponere to set forth, explain (perfect indicative exposui), from ex- + ponere to put, place -- more at POSITION
Date: 15th century
1 a : to deprive of shelter, protection, or care : subject to risk from a harmful action or condition <expose troops needlessly> <has not yet been exposed to measles> b : to submit or make accessible to a particular action or influence <expose children to good books>; especially : to subject (a sensitive photographic film, plate, or paper) to radiant energy c : to abandon (an infant) especially by leaving in the open
2 a : to make known : bring to light (as something shameful) b : to disclose the faults or crimes of <expose a murderer>
3 : to cause to be visible or open to view : DISPLAY: as a : to offer publicly for sale b : to exhibit for public veneration c : to reveal the face of (a playing card) or the cards of (a player's hand) d : to engage in indecent exposure of (oneself)
synonym see SHOW

Main Entry: ex�po�s�
Variant(s): also ex�po�se /"ek-spO-'zA, -sp&-/
Function: noun
Etymology: French expos�, from past participle of exposer
Date: 1803
1 : a formal statement of facts
2 : an exposure of something discreditable <a newspaper expos� of government corruption>

Don't confuse the terms - you might look like a Windows user who can't type accent characters or something.

[laxthxdude]

The searching is real-time like iTunes. You don't press enter.

[teszeract]

Originally posted by laxthxdude:
The searching is real-time like iTunes. You don't press enter.

Good. Good.

I wish Apple used people who knew what they were presenting. The mac-illiterate who was doing the showing-off of Panther also said: "No. Not faster, just more feature rich. FontBook crashes all the time - its still in beta. Search in Finder is like OS 10/2, you have to press enter. Requires 128mb and it will be fine." Phooey to her, move over woman, I'll drive!

[d0ubled0wn]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Ahem... it's Expos�, not Expose.

Don't confuse the terms - you might look like a Windows user who can't type accent characters or something.

Ahem... I used to be a Windows user. I ditched that box when I got my dualie.

BTW, WTF happened to the Key Caps app that was in Jag? No sign of it here in 7b59. (how else am I gonna figure out how to type the �??)

[zachs]

Originally posted by gorickey:
How do (non-Apple) "menu extras" play in Panther? Any haxie needed to make them work?

The ones from Menu Meters work fine.
Those are the only "real" non-Apple menu extras I can think of...any others?

Originally posted by d0ubled0wn:
Ahem... I used to be a Windows user. I ditched that box when I got my dualie.

BTW, WTF happened to the Key Caps app that was in Jag? No sign of it here in 7b59. (how else am I gonna figure out how to type the �??)

Open up the International pane in System Preferences. In the "Input Menu" tab, you have to enable "Keyboard Viewer".

(BTW, the accented � is easily entered by pressing Option-Tilde (`), and hitting "e").

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by zachs:
Open up the International pane in System Preferences. In the "Input Menu" tab, you have to enable "Keyboard Viewer".

That is just ridiculous! No newbie user is ever going to find that! Great, now we will have a mass of users that won't know how to enter accents, and so will just assume the Mac can't do it, and that only Windows can with its obtuse ALT-XXXX method.

I really hope Apple changes their mind on this by the final release.

(BTW, the accented � is easily entered by pressing Option-Tilde (`), and hitting "e"). [/B]

Actually, that's an accent grave. What you need for Expos� is an accent aigu - option-e and then type an "e".

Other accent characters:

Circumflex (�) option-I plus vowel
Umlaut (�) option -U plus vowel
Tilde (�) option-N plus a, o, or n

[Zadian]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
That is just ridiculous! No newbie user is ever going to find that! Great, now we will have a mass of users that won't know how to enter accents, and so will just assume the Mac can't do it, and that only Windows can with its obtuse ALT-XXXX method.

I don't know how it is in Panther but in Jaguar you can get a character palette in the keyboard menu. I use it fairly often to get those unusual characters and other glyphs that unicode provides. I think it's a very easy and useful way to access special characters.

The character palette can be accessed via the keyboard menu (the flag in the menu) and "customise menu.." That will open the international preferences with the input menu preferences.

If in Panther the input pallet is the same way accessible i don't think it's that difficult.

Most newbies don't know that the application "Keyboard" exists as it is deeply hidden in /Applications/Utilities. So i don't think that would be a problem and in the input menu the input palette is easily and fast accessible.

[Developer]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
That is just ridiculous! No newbie user is ever going to find that!

Actually, they will find it, if it's On by default. Then the keyboard menu is a more prominently visible place for the keycaps than an application in the Utilities folder.

Maybe something to consider, before you file a bug.

Edit:
Zadian war schneller.

[Some Guy []]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
That is just ridiculous! No newbie user is ever going to find that! Great, now we will have a mass of users that won't know how to enter accents, and so will just assume the Mac can't do it, and that only Windows can with its obtuse ALT-XXXX method.

I really hope Apple changes their mind on this by the final release.

i dunno, they added a 'Special Characters...' menu at the bottom of the 'Edit' menu.

The 'Pro' users will want to know how to do it, so they'll find it in System Prefs, the dumb/newbie users will just use the one in the Edit menu for one time things and pick their 'special' character.

so i think this solution is good.


-justin

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by laxthxdude:
2) Toast 6 doesn't work - won't install.

Yes, it will work. You need to install it on Jaguar first. Toast 6 rocks

[daydreamer]

12) Word launches in 1 bounce.

It does in jaguar to, on a dual 800.

I really hope people are not overreacting on this speed thing, and that they are not just experiencing the fresh install snappyness...

[superblue]

Originally posted by z0ne81:
7B59 has a new intro movie to all previous builds of Panther (yes it's newer than the 'floating snow' one) which reatures Royksopp's Eple as the bg-music!

That is one excellent choice by Apple! You can see the music video for it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/chat/dan...opp_eple.shtml

And a better video of Royksopp's here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/urban/vi...remindme.shtml

[jasong]

I also have it on my prod. system. Its a pretty solid build, however I just had to reboot due to a bug: My account was set to a screensaver with password. The other user was logged in under the second account. I choose to switch users - it flipped to my account but nothing I did would allow me to use the keyboard to type my password. It was like the keyboard wasn't there. Switch back to the other account was OK - I just couldn't get into mine.

Just out of curiosity, If you switch to another user with Admin rights, can you kill the screensaver from that user account and thereby bypass the security setting on the screensaver?

-- Jason

[SMacTech]

Originally posted by d0ubled0wn:
Just installed 7b59 as my production system (clean install preserving user accounts.) I am very impressed with this build, it feels oh so close to being finished.

� Hard drives should not be ejectable from the Finder!!! I have two HDs, the 2nd shows up with an eject button next to it in the finder.

I too use 7B59 as my production OS. It is finally usable in all things I need it to do.

I eject my external drives often, as many times they will spin down when I am not using them. I don't like to wait for them to spin up or the noise.

Have noticed some very bizarre Finder behavior when scrolling in column views with a mpg or QT preview present.

Expos� is great!!!

[SMacTech]

Originally posted by daydreamer:


I really hope people are not overreacting on this speed thing, and that they are not just experiencing the fresh install snappyness...

Speed increase is very real and noticeable. It is not from the fresh installation, but it is from a refined and more optimized OS. It is one of the reasons I use it everyday now, as going back to Jag on my cube here at work makes me notice the difference immediately.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by d0ubled0wn:
� Hard drives should not be ejectable from the Finder!!! I have two HDs, the 2nd shows up with an eject button next to it in the finder.

Unless the Finder can distinguish between built-in and Firewire hard drives, HDs *NEED* to be ejectable from the Finder.

Or do you expect users to use Disk Utility to unmount Firewire volumes before they disconnect them (think: iPod)?

-s*

[SMacTech]

Note: Windows 98, Windows 98 Second Edition (SE), and Windows 95 also are not affected by this issue. However, these products are no longer supported. Users of these products are strongly encouraged to upgrade to later versions.
- Microsoft, 09/10/2003

Spheric, I see you picked up on that too. I laughed my butt off when I read that at M$ site.

[neilw]

Is it true that Panther now allows all GUI elements to be keyboard controlled, including pop-up lists? I saw mention of this on Appleinsider, but couldn't recall having previously seen it on the various Panther threads.

If that's true, how does keyboard control of pop-ups work? If you just keep hitting the same letter, will it cycle through the options starting with that letter (preferred behavior, IMHO)?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by neilw:
Is it true that Panther now allows all GUI elements to be keyboard controlled, including pop-up lists? I saw mention of this on Appleinsider, but couldn't recall having previously seen it on the various Panther threads.

Works perfectly fine in Jaguar on my machines.

Tab to the menu and hit the up or down arrows. I believe typing letters will get you directly to an entry, but I can't check right now (NT at work).



Re: the sig -
I saw it in the Lounge a couple days ago, and I needed a new sig anyway. I like the subtleness of it. Microsoft is their own worst enemy. I think people are slowly starting to notice.

-s*

[neilw]

Works perfectly fine in Jaguar on my machines.

Well, that makes one of us. I've seen others complain about this before as well, so I know I'm not the only one.

It seems to work in Mozilla variants and IE because it's specifically coded into those apps, but it doesn't work in Safari or elsewhere in the OS. And yes, I have "Full Keyboard Access" enabled, with "Any Control".

[Zadian]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Works perfectly fine in Jaguar on my machines.

You have to activate that behaviour first in System Preferences - keyboard, full keyboard access (?).

There the "any control" has to be marked.