[Jacob]

Alright, thought I should share this with everyone.

I downloaded the new Vista Beta 1, got my CD key, installed it..etc. (Virtual PC is painfully slow, but it works).

Here is my small review of what I think....

Popped in the DVD, starts booting, brings me into a sub-windows environment. (Actually a slimmed down version of Windows running a utility that gives you installation options). I rather like this, for a PC tech like me, it's painfully annoying to do repair installs, etc. I like the direction they are going, veru intuitive, easy to use, and fast. Not just an ugly DOS level interface, but a proper GUI. They have practucally phased out MS DOS completely...so far. There are really only two steps in the setup Wizard. Which I LOVE. All previous version ask you through the setup process to enter user information. It's amazingly convenient to enter the product key and install. Plus, the disk imaging tool is way better. There is a slider you can use to allocate partition space and such. Way more intuitive. I like this so far. Anyhow, setup tooka bout 2 and a half hours to complete. with only 2 restarts. Not bad. No annoying adverts about 'how amazing' windows is. Just a windows logo and progress bar. So, Vista finally loads...

Black Start bar, neat glass blade background...new desktop icons. So, I open the start bar, different setup. They have changed the way the start bar works. Instead of annoying menus that pop up that lead to more submenus...the ALL PROGRAMS button simply shows the program in the start bar itself. The search feature(which is now built into the start bar), lets you do an instant search for programs. As soon as you type in a program...there it is. Way more connvenient and simple than looking all over the place.

The thing that impressed me the most was IE 7. Now with tabbed browsing. Very fast browser, simple, and more and more like firefox. Damnit, I love the convenience of it. Can't say all that much about it, just that it's very similar to firefox, but more of a clean interface.

Programs, for the most part, worked fine. There ARE some visible bugs, it runs dirt slow(although that's the fault of emulated x86 hardware). The transparency effects do add a more distinguished feel and actually ADD confidence to windows for once. Hard to say it, but I actually felt like I was using linux. It has that feel and look to it. I like it. Eye Candy, such as the garbage can slowely filling up with paper balls as you put more files in it. Picture files preview like OS X does....etc.

Anyhow, overall, I am impressed with the progress of this 'Vista.' It's no way near complete. But, a good effort on Microsofts part. I HOPE they don't rip off Apple TOO much. I would love to see some original creativity from them. I doubt they could ever make something as simplistic as OS X or anything as convenient as expose or dashboard. But...they'll try.

That's my review. Enjoy.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Jacob

The thing that impressed me the most was IE 7. Now with tabbed browsing. Very fast browser, simple, and more and more like firefox. Damnit, I love the convenience of it. Can't say all that much about it, just that it's very similar to firefox, but more of a clean interface.

Just because it has freaking tabs doesn't mean it isn't still totally broken.

[Jacob]

Dude, it's such an improvement over the last 6 versions which really had NO useability. So, for Microsoft to make any updates...ha! It's a miracle.

[TheIceMan]

Shouldn't this be in the lounge since it's not Mac OS?

[CaptainHaddock]

Now with tabbed browsing. .... Damnit, I love the convenience of it.

I think you're being way too kind!

Hey, Microsoft, 1994 called. They want their "innovation" back.

[msuper69]

I don't give a gd about Vista or anything related to Windows.

Move this to the the lounge please moderators.

[Maflynn]

Who cares, post this on a vista site, I'm more interested in OSX.

[cleanup]

Originally Posted by Maflynn

Who cares, post this on a vista site, I'm more interested in OSX.

I agree with that person up there who said that thing.

Let's hear about Leopard, but of course, Apple will likely keep us in the dark until WWDC.

[sniffer]

If Jacob or someone else posts similar reviews 'bout Mac OS X in a Windows centric forum you'd probably get the same "get outa here" response there like here. I am also curios about what will come from Redmond the next year(s), but yeah this is a Mac OS X forum.

Interesting first impression review still.

[chris v]

So when are you gonna review he first Vista Virus?

I dunno. Don't mean to be harsh. I'm sure that Vista will be an improvement over XP. That's like saying a Neon is an improvement over a Yugo though, as far as I'm concerned. If it makes people's lives simpler and better, then great. It won't matter much to me unless Apple goes out of business, though.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Maflynn

Who cares, post this on a vista site, I'm more interested in OSX.

As a user of both platforms, I'm interested in the opinions of others who also use both platforms.

[m a d r a]

Originally Posted by Jacob

Alright, thought I should share this with everyone.....

......

<snip>

.......

so what? - it's still fuckin' windoze!

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Jacob

Dude, it's such an improvement over the last 6 versions which really had NO useability. So, for Microsoft to make any updates...ha! It's a miracle.

While I agree that IE 6 had pretty bad usability, those flaws were small potatoes compared to its wretched insecurity and a completely broken rendering engine that has been plaguing Web designers for years. If they aren't going to fix those, I'd prefer they gave it a really bad interface to encourage people to use a browser that actually works right.

[zetroe]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

While I agree that IE 6 had pretty bad usability, those flaws were small potatoes compared to its wretched insecurity and a completely broken rendering engine that has been plaguing Web designers for years. If they aren't going to fix those, I'd prefer they gave it a really bad interface to encourage people to use a browser that actually works right.

Even Paul Thurrott is recommending that people boycott IE 7.

[Chips G]

I just installed Vista today, and here's my take (for anyone that IS interested)

Installation WAS simple, however there was no real status bar that showed me how far along the installation was, which was annoying. The bar which I assumed showed the percent completed just kept pulsing giving me no idication how much longer the install would take..minor complaint I realize but I still feel they could have done a better job here.

The icons I felt were horrible! I MUCH prefer the look of XP's (and of course OSX's) icons, and am hoping these will just be used for the betas...I really hope.

The new start menu is different. I haven't decided if I prefer it over the 'old' start menu, time will tell.

My 3ghz PIV with 64mb Radeon graphics card (7500, old but stilll a quite capable card in my opinion) would not let me use 'Aero Glass' which is the transparent windows theme, and installed 'regular' aero which is not all that nice looking. It's fine, but again I would prefer Windows Classic theme (as in 2000). The fact that my windows wouldn't let me run glass was quite suprising to me, and I wish i had a chance to at least try it out for myself to see how unresponsive it really would be on my machine.

One of my biggest gripes is that my soundcard (which was automatcially detected and installed with xp i believe) did not get installed with longhorn. I had to manually download the driver and show longhorn/vista the filepath to it before it would work. Hopefully this will be fixed in the final.

Vista is a ram hog. With no applications open it was taking up 400 megs of ram, where as xp takes up around 200mb. I am not sure how much Tiger takes up with no other running applications, but I hope it is not 400mb.

I dont like the look of windows explorer, and HATE IE7...the layout is just so unintuitive! I don't know WHO designed the interface, but I suggest they work on it a bit more (strictly my opinion of course)

Maybe I jsut haven't stumbled upon what makes Vista so great, but as of right now I am not sold on it.

Chris

Edit: Remember, this is only a beta and I am sure that many improvements will be made. These are just my takes on the progression of it so far.

[DeathMan]

Beta should be feature complete. It is stupid if Microsoft is releasing a Beta version of a product and people have the expectation that there is going to be new things, or other improvements beyond optimizations and bug fixes. That is probably what you were getting at, Chris, but I've seen this idea floating around quite a bit, that something in Beta might still have surprises. It shouldn't have any is all I'm saying.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Chris Gilpin

I just installed Vista today, and here's my take (for anyone that IS interested)

Installation WAS simple, however there was no real status bar that showed me how far along the installation was, which was annoying. The bar which I assumed showed the percent completed just kept pulsing giving me no idication how much longer the install would take..minor complaint I realize but I still feel they could have done a better job here.

The icons I felt were horrible! I MUCH prefer the look of XP's (and of course OSX's) icons, and am hoping these will just be used for the betas...I really hope.

The new start menu is different. I haven't decided if I prefer it over the 'old' start menu, time will tell.

My 3ghz PIV with 64mb Radeon graphics card (7500, old but stilll a quite capable card in my opinion) would not let me use 'Aero Glass' which is the transparent windows theme, and installed 'regular' aero which is not all that nice looking. It's fine, but again I would prefer Windows Classic theme (as in 2000). The fact that my windows wouldn't let me run glass was quite suprising to me, and I wish i had a chance to at least try it out for myself to see how unresponsive it really would be on my machine.

One of my biggest gripes is that my soundcard (which was automatcially detected and installed with xp i believe) did not get installed with longhorn. I had to manually download the driver and show longhorn/vista the filepath to it before it would work. Hopefully this will be fixed in the final.

Vista is a ram hog. With no applications open it was taking up 400 megs of ram, where as xp takes up around 200mb. I am not sure how much Tiger takes up with no other running applications, but I hope it is not 400mb.

I dont like the look of windows explorer, and HATE IE7...the layout is just so unintuitive! I don't know WHO designed the interface, but I suggest they work on it a bit more (strictly my opinion of course)

Maybe I jsut haven't stumbled upon what makes Vista so great, but as of right now I am not sold on it.

Chris

Edit: Remember, this is only a beta and I am sure that many improvements will be made. These are just my takes on the progression of it so far.

I have a question: how do you like the new placement of the windows beneath the icon bar in the Explorers for instance?

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by DeathMan

Beta should be feature complete. It is stupid if Microsoft is releasing a Beta version of a product and people have the expectation that there is going to be new things, or other improvements beyond optimizations and bug fixes. That is probably what you were getting at, Chris, but I've seen this idea floating around quite a bit, that something in Beta might still have surprises. It shouldn't have any is all I'm saying.

Ahem the Mac OS X public beta was FAR from feature complete.

cheers

W-Y

[No Time 4 Love Dr. Jones]

Personally, I think Microsoft got the "GUI bug" once they saw OS X and have been building backwards from the GUI to the improvements, instead of creating a vastly improved OS and then worrying about the interface makeover. Sure, there will always be old-school stalwarts who immediately change to the "Windows Classic" theme upon first boot, but if I wanted the OS to look like Windows 2000, I'd stick with Windows 2000. Just MHO.

EDIT: Pardon the apparent non-sequitur, LOL.

[Mr Scruff]

I've seen the Vista beta, and I have to say I was surprised at how little things have changed since XP. I was expecting a lot more, but it (from the user perspective anyway) doesn't have much in the way of improvements.

The new UI stuff just seems to add more clutter to what was already an overly busy interface.

[ink]

Originally Posted by Jacob

• There are really only two steps in the setup Wizard
• There is a slider you can use to allocate partition space and such.
• Black Start bar, neat glass blade background...new desktop icons.
• The search feature(which is now built into the start bar), lets you do an instant search for programs.
• The thing that impressed me the most was IE 7. Now with tabbed browsing.
• The transparency effects do add a more distinguished feel and actually ADD confidence

Sounds like things Linux and OS X have been doing for years already.

[ghporter]

"Getting an OS right" is NOT an easy thing. And it will no doubt take MS a few "fixes" to get past the glitches that have and will come up. It happens. And it HAS HAPPENED to the Mac community. Let's all meditate on the original OS X distribution for a moment... Between broken features and complaints of "it does this but was supposed to do that-at least that's what the rumors said" and so on, it was a mess for a while. And that was the release version!

Now that the appropriate amount of slack has been allocated to Microsoft, let's now address how this applies to Mac OS. It applies in that it is obviously Microsoft's response to OS X and particularly to Tiger. Further, it is interesting to see the "user concept" that they came up with, and how it seems to be (from my vantage point) a mix of Linux and OS X paradigms. I would honestly like to get my hands on the beta to see what the fuss is about-and see how it runs on my AMD Athlon XP-2400 system with a Saphire-made NVidia GeForce4 MX 4000-based video card and on-board VIA sound system!

[osxrules]

What annoys me is when Windows users get excited about features that Mac and Linux users have had for ages like it's somehow going to totally wipe everybody else out. Now I admit some Mac users do this (spotlight, dashboard) so I can live with it.

What annoys me more is that Microshit blatantly rip Apple off and aren't held accountable for it.

The thing that bugs me absolutely the most is that everbody else is using open standards - OpenGL, PDF, unix, H264, W3C standards - but Microshit keep peddling their proprietary pish - DirectX, .doc, Windows, WMV9/VC1, Explorer compatibility.

Windows Vista or Longhorn or whatever they call it will still do the latter and so it will still suck even if they make it as close to OS X as is possible to go.

An OS is not just about capability but the philosophy behind it. When I buy a Mac, Apple give me a copy of the system. If I buy a PC, I get a license. Microsoft are about making money only. Apple are about making money but not at the expense of the end user experience.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by osxrules

What annoys me is when Windows users get excited about features that Mac and Linux users have had for ages like it's somehow going to totally wipe everybody else out. Now I admit some Mac users do this (spotlight, dashboard) so I can live with it.

What annoys me more is that Microshit blatantly rip Apple off and aren't held accountable for it.

Actually, most of the truly innovative stuff came from Xerox's Palo Alto Research Center (known as PARC) a LONG time ago. Things like a GUI, a mouse, and the like are NOT Apple inventions. The Apple implementations of such things as a file browser are simply implementations, nothing even copyrightable. Sure, it looks lame to copy stuff, but when you find that some Linux distributions have done a lot of what was "innovative" in Tiger for quite some time, it doesn't look quite so rude.

Originally Posted by osxrules

The thing that bugs me absolutely the most is that everbody else is using open standards - OpenGL, PDF, unix, H264, W3C standards - but Microshit keep peddling their proprietary pish - DirectX, .doc, Windows, WMV9/VC1, Explorer compatibility.

Windows Vista or Longhorn or whatever they call it will still do the latter and so it will still suck even if they make it as close to OS X as is possible to go.

This is called "backward compatibility." One thing Microsoft doesn't want to do is alienate the huge installed business customer base by making all their existing software and/or files obsolete. One thing that helped Apple make the OS 9 to X transition was that their business customer base was very specialized for the most part, and already prepared to "think different." You will NOT find that in the Windows world. Further, the next version of Office documents will be all XML based, moving these apps to a level of openness that isn't very well supported currently on Macs.

Originally Posted by osxrules

An OS is not just about capability but the philosophy behind it. When I buy a Mac, Apple give me a copy of the system. If I buy a PC, I get a license. Microsoft are about making money only. Apple are about making money but not at the expense of the end user experience.

Actually, you get a license to use OS X, just the same as if you buy a copy of Windows XP. Apple doesn't have quite the international piracy syndicate problem Microsoft does, so it doesn't seem to be the same thing, but it is.

Apple have consistently brought new things to the commercial software world, while Microsoft has brought a range of other things that were generally new to their user base. There is a significant divide between the Mac and Windows user bases, and what is new to one may be old hat to the other-in EITHER direction.

Some people get turned off when the new parent at work gushes over his or her new bundle of joy-it truly is all new to them. That's the same thing as when your Windows-using coworker gushes about what new thing Windows comes out with. It is something we have to live with, and pointing out that you've been doing that for the past 18 months will not win you points.

I've spent YEARS dealing with Windows, and about 18 months with OS X. OS X is definitely better thought out, better structured, and smoother. But that does not mean that there is nothing Windows does just as well, or even better. An example is the broad range of wireless network adapters supported natively by Windows, as compared to the dearth of wireless adapters for Macs. Apple could support the same cards (there are only a very few chipsets for these devices), but they've chosen not to so we have to paw through lists and lists of gadgets to find one that works for us-and we pay a lot more for them, too.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by ghporter

"Getting an OS right" is NOT an easy thing. And it will no doubt take MS a few "fixes" to get past the glitches that have and will come up. It happens. And it HAS HAPPENED to the Mac community. Let's all meditate on the original OS X distribution for a moment... Between broken features and complaints of "it does this but was supposed to do that-at least that's what the rumors said" and so on, it was a mess for a while. And that was the release version!

Is Vista anywhere near the radical code (not to mention UI) break that OS X was? I don't think so.

[Hi I'm Ben]

It's interesting some of you aren't able to appreciate technology as whole. i'll be happy to install Vista on my PC when it comes out personally.

Actually maybe not, if the intel macs are out by then I might have one of those, only because I prefer Mac OS X to Windows, not because windows sucks. Most of the reasons I like OS X has to do with the free or cheap programs developed for it I use on a daily basis.

[msuper69]

Originally Posted by Hi I'm Ben

It's interesting some of you aren't able to appreciate technology as whole. ...

I certainly appreciate technology as a whole. I think the pencil and paper is still very usefull. But after more than 2 decades of working with and supporting Windows technology, I'm not impressed and not ready to believe that Microsoft is capable of building a reliable and safe OS. And I'm not about to waste any of my valuable time (life is too short) messing around with junk. I've done enough of that already.

[ink]

Originally Posted by Hi I'm Ben

It's interesting some of you aren't able to appreciate technology as whole. i'll be happy to install Vista on my PC when it comes out personally.

That's great, but what new technology are you talking about?

Honestly; I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud, but apart from hardware-accelerated windows transparency on the desktop (which Linux and OS X have been doing for a long time), what does Vista really offer in the form of new technology? It's going to run the same applications that Windows XP does; it's going to be NT 6 -- an incremental upgrade. It's still going to be Win32. It's going to have the same runtime environment that NT 5.x had. Nothing has really changed since Windows 2000 actually (XP == Windows 2000 with the Fisher Price interface).

I also haven't upgraded to OS X 10.4 for similar reasons; I can't really see a benefit to doing it (plus core won't work on my iBook, so I wouldn't even get the of-dubious-value bling). But at least 10.4 comes with new iLife, which is a tangable thing. IE7 will run on XP (but not 2000, oh shucks!)

Monad (arguably, the coolest thing about Longhorn) was even pulled from Vista, because it would "help facilitate viruses"..

Apart from that we have a handful of "not invented here" technologies that Microsoft has decided to re-write for whatever stupid reasons: Metro (PDF), dotNet (Java), Direct3D (OpenGL2 -- which has been severely cripled in Vista)...

I don't get it.

[sniffer]

Originally Posted by ink

That's great, but what new technology are you talking about?

Who says new technology? It's just a sequel to Windows XP..

[forkies]

check the icon for the music folder. doesn't it look like the itunes icon?
http://www.winsupersite.com/images/r...ista_b1_13.jpg

[budster101]

It looks like they copied it and then just skewed it inside of a (gag) manilla folder. How putrid and irrellivent Windows has become, and the people who have used it, wasting their time, money and potential creativity on anything running it...

[cleanup]

Originally Posted by forkies

check the icon for the music folder. doesn't it look like the itunes icon?
http://www.winsupersite.com/images/r...ista_b1_13.jpg

What's with the oversized close glyph? Those glyphs look like some wannabe 14-year-old graphic artist drew them for a Windowblinds theme.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Is Vista anywhere near the radical code (not to mention UI) break that OS X was? I don't think so.

While the UI isn't a radical departure from XP, it looks like the code base is. And that code base affects EVERYTHING from rendering to services for applications to communications... It is a very fundamental change.

[budster101]

How wonderful. I can't wait to see it in 2007 when it's done and LEOPARD is in full swing.

10.5.4 Leopard.

-=-=-

M$ has no clue and are stalling big time... I wonder why?

[ink]

Originally Posted by ghporter

While the UI isn't a radical departure from XP, it looks like the code base is.

What makes you say that?

Windows ME => Windows 2000 was a huge, impressive change. XP => Vista doesn't seem to offer anything other than eye candy (and you can only experiene that with extreme high-end systems that don't have custom OpenGL stacks).

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by ink

What makes you say that?

Windows ME => Windows 2000 was a huge, impressive change. XP => Vista doesn't seem to offer anything other than eye candy (and you can only experiene that with extreme high-end systems that don't have custom OpenGL stacks).

It's apparently all managed code-which means completely new code. Take a look at MS's pages about Vista.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Is Vista anywhere near the radical code (not to mention UI) break that OS X was? I don't think so.

Yeah OS X sure broke the Mac UI

Perhaps in the future the Finder will be ****ing Fixed.

In fact now that Vista is coming I'm sure it will. Now that eye-candy is avalable in MS campus too, Apple will have to fall back on a good UI to distinguish itself. OS X UI is utter crap, a joke and a shame.

Only tasteless people will enjoy it.

cheers

W-Y

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Yeah OS X sure broke the Mac UI

Er...you realize that isn't what I said, right? I said it was a break from the past — as in, a quick, radical departure.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Er...you realize that isn't what I said, right? I said it was a break from the past — as in, a quick, radical departure.

Yes, I realized. You hit the nail on the head though when you said OS X was a break from the past. A break from good UI to UNIXy UI. You may like it but that doesn't make it a good UI.

cheers

W-Y

[Detrius]

Alright... enough already. You can discuss Windows in the lounge.