[iBorg]

Check this out from PC World:

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article.asp?aid=39326

"The top-shelf version of the 2805 is the S402 model, which will cost $2749. It has an 850-MHz Pentium III processor, 128MB of SDRAM, a 20GB hard drive, 16MB of video SDRAM with the NVidia graphics, a 15-inch thin-film transistor display, and integrated Ethernet and modem. It includes a three-in-one optical drive--with 24X CD-ROM, 8X DVD, and 4X CD-RW--as well as a smart media slot, two type II PC Card slots, and a Yamaha sound system with a subwoofer in the base."

And this top-of-the-line Toshiba comes with all this for only $2749?

DAMN! If only this setup ran the Mac OS!

Me.....I'm holding out for Rev. B Ti PowerBook - Mr. Jobs is gonna have to match this kind of power and performance, for less $$$, and I'm guessing that it happens this summer!



iBorg

[This message has been edited by iBorg (edited 01-27-2001).]

[Kerygma99]

I have only two words in response to those specs: the first is 'HOLY' and the second is '**** '!

All kidding aside, that's impressive, especially the 3-in-1 drive. Now I'm definitely glad I've decided to wait for a Rev B. Titanium, because this is the standard Mac now has to meet....

K99

[gorgonzola]

Actually, those specs aren't much higher than G4 specs. Some specs are higher, actually. Take a look:

TOSHIBA
850 MHz
128 MB
20 GB
nVidia 16 MB
15 inch display
Ethernet
Modem
CD-RW/DVD
PC Card
Smart Media
$2749

TITANIUM
400 MHz
128 MB
10 GB
8 MB ATi
15.2 inch wide-screen
Ethernet
Modem
DVD
PC slot (1)
**don't know about the sound
$2500

I don't think the Toshiba is 802.11 (AirPort) ready. So considering that the Titanium is $250 cheaper, the difference is understandable. The G4 compared to the Pentium 3 is probably the same after considering differences in OS etc. Basically the Toshiba has the bigger drive (BTO in Titanium) and more vram (i wish, this is bad for titanium) and a cd-rw/dvd (which will probably be rev 2.)

It's okay. It's coming. The differences aren't staggering anymore.

------------------
it's only after you lose everything that you're free to do anything

[pobodysnerfect]

yes, but according to Toshiba the 401 model weighs 7.74 pounds and is 1.6 inches thick. I'll take the Ti thank you.

[Pale Rider]

Originally posted by pobodysnerfect:
yes, but according to Toshiba the 401 model weighs 7.74 pounds and is 1.6 inches thick. I'll take the Ti thank you.

Agreed. Sorry, the subject matter of this thread is not even apt. I ordered my PBG4 so as to have something lighter and more compact than my Pismo. Do I wish I had CD-RW? Maybe, but I am content to save my battery for the road, and burn my discs at my desktop. That's what the 733 is for.

Do I think it will be good whern Rev. B offers Mac buyers a choice of drives and better video? Absolutely. But it so happens the Ti is dead on for me. So version A is fine.

But no bar of excellence has been raised with this Toshiba announcement. Unless you already stuck with a Tosh.

[NeoMac]

4x CD-R in a laptop is nothing to brag about. What is that, a 30+ minute burn time?

For $100 more than the price difference between the two machines, you can buy an external Firewire CD-RW drive at 12x, 10x, 32x or better. Plus, you can plug that drive into any computer and get much more value for the money.

So while the Toshiba twit is stuck waiting 30-40 minutes to burn his CD, you'll be done in 5 minutes on gone your marry way. Also, you can watch a DVD, while you burn (in OS X, I hope), he can't.

I think Apple did a very smart thing by removing modules. You can get great peripherals, cheaply, and immidiately.

Furthermore, there is no mention of USB or FireWire. Low battery life. Bulky. Heavy weight. Plastic. Need I continue?

You think this stuff through, and you realize why Apple's stuff is so great.

[This message has been edited by NeoMac (edited 01-27-2001).]

[NeoMac]

The Standard of Excellence is Raised.....

Forgive me for being crude, but in light of my previous post, you should really think matters through before making such statements.

[MrK]

Originally posted by Pale Rider:
Agreed. Sorry, the subject matter of this thread is not even apt. I ordered my PBG4 so as to have something lighter and more compact than my Pismo. .

Hmm. Wow. Is 3/4 of an inch and 10 oz really that noticable to you?

I just bought a Pismo 500 for under $2000, new. To me, not noticeable. I'm not dropping $1500 more for Altivec and an inch more of screen. I love the style, but....

Rev.B.

I'm patient. Really. I swear. If I say it enough times it might come true.

[Divx]

Toshiba... Don't they make lawn mowers or something?

------------------
Ti / 512mb / 20gig

[iBorg]

Originally posted by NeoMac:

Forgive me for being crude, but in light of my previous post, you should really think matters through before making such statements.

Hmmmmmmm......not "crude," but perhaps you should "really think matters through" before making a such a lame reply!

I'm a "Mac-guy" through and through, and the purpose of this thread (since you didn't seem to understand it?) was to show what the competition is offering, at a lower price - fast processor, CD-RW/DVD, GOOD video card with 16 MB (since you cannot upgrade this on Ti), 2 type II PC card slots, and an improved sound system with subwoofer. Not bad for only $150 more than the CHEAPEST Ti, and $750 less than the Ti 500!

You don't want CD-RW/DVD? FINE - just use it as a DVD! Toshiba included a feature that many Mac-buyers criticized Apple for not including on Ti, and at no apparent extra cost to the buyer!

Hell, I'm GLAD there's competition, since it makes Jobs & Co. offer more value for less money each round! I'll keep my Pismo 500 for now (wouldn't trade it for anything PC-wise) and wait for the next version of Ti. Don't get me wrong - I think Apple is going in the right direction (except for not reintroducing a 2400 size subnotebook), but these Toshiba offerings make me drool for Jobs' next Ti version!

FYI, in case people didn't read the article, here's what you get for $1799:

"A less expensive version of the 2805 called the S202 offers a less robust hardware set for $1799. It has a 700-MHz PIII, 128MB of SDRAM, a 10GB hard drive, S3 Savage IX graphics with 8MB of video SDRAM, and a 14.1-inch display. The rest of the specifications are the same."

Just a couple of hundred $$ higher than top-of-the-line iBook.......



iBorg

[Chimpmaster]

Id rather theibook than the toshiba for the following reasons;

A g3 466 processor is just as fast as a pIII 700 if not faster for a lot of apps.

The 8mb ATI rage 128 mobility video card is a LOT faster and better at rendering than the savage IX. A lot faster.

The ibook has airport and firewire

The ibook is a mac, and runs mac os.

Im an indigo ibook owner myself. I looked closely at pc laptops at the same time when I was int he market for a notebook late last year, and I couldnt find anything that matched the ibook for value, when lookinga t quality of make, the parts inside and the performance.

To give an example, I had a look at the gateway 5300, which was $1000 AUS more for similar features to my ibook. Reviews of this machine have stated that the actual components of the machine are crap - in particular the casing and screen quality. Its fine and good to have a 14.1" xga screen, but if it looks like your watching it underwater, whats the point. There seems to be a great difference in the quality of LCD screen out there - so watch out! Try b4 you buy.

We all know on the other hand, that the ibook and powerbooks have fantastic quality lcd screens. Best you can get .

And apple puts quality components int its machines. Go the apple

[idjeff]

Hey, didn't Toshiba sell top secret things to Russia in the late 70's or early 80's?

[Ikari]

Well first of all this might be the most idiotic comment here but,..i'm just a kid so sue me alright? (Get Johnny Cochran i'll kill ya.) What is this mysterious 'Pismo' I hear constantly,...and the Toshiba is good but no benchmark if you ask me,..and I think Toshiba sold Nuclear Lawnmowers to the Russians.. o.o;;

[Liman Wong]

Be honest, I would want everything in the new PB Ti as I will use it as my only computer for the next many years - Apple Care gives me at least a 3-year promise

Well, I just find many complaint on these and those, for me, the new PB just bulit with ALL necessary things inside that meets the need for the majority with consideration also on the cost and power consumption and the most important amazing design that Apple guys always proud of

I would suggest the new ultra-thin pretty magic box just has everything necessary there, Job bulit the beauty in simpleness and give the complexity at our own choice via the firewire/ USB/ Cardbus slots.

[Cipher13]

Pale Rider - not everyone can have a TiBook and a 733 G4
NeoMac - its a hell of a lot quicker than the TiBook can manage. Infinitely better actually.
And its about 18 minutes.

Look at all of you... jumping to Apples defense in the face of a superior machine... its only prob is it doesn't run the MacOS.

You keep making excuses... pathetic. I'm not even gona bother argueing this, its just ridiculous.

Cipher13

[iRebound]

Originally posted by iBorg:
FYI, in case people didn't read the article, here's what you get for $1799:

"A less expensive version of the 2805 called the S202 offers a less robust hardware set for $1799. It has a 700-MHz PIII, 128MB of SDRAM, a 10GB hard drive, S3 Savage IX graphics with 8MB of video SDRAM, and a 14.1-inch display. The rest of the specifications are the same."

Just a couple of hundred $$ higher than top-of-the-line iBook.......



iBorg

Hmmm...you can get a Pismo 400 for around that price...It would be a better value...think firewire, airport, dual bay, etc.

[NeoMac]

Toshiba sold the Russia US technology for creating super quiet propeller blades for submarines and warships.

Your opinion of the Toshiba model is just that, your opinion. Personally, I would hardly call it excellent. If you want to call it competitve, that's fine too, but again that is a personal opinion. We obviously value different things in our products.

Toshiba sold the Russians nine-axis milling machines that allowed them to create sophisticated swept propellers with lower noise levels. They also allegedly sold computers used in integrated fire control systems on Russian subs.

Back on topic, Helios and his cohorts won't consider this a new standard. It doesn't have the 1600x1200 resolution he demands.

Originally posted by NeoMac:

Toshiba sold the Russia US technology for creating super quiet propeller blades for submarines and warships.

Your opinion of the Toshiba model is just that, your opinion. Personally, I would hardly call it excellent. If you want to call it competitve, that's fine too, but again that is a personal opinion. We obviously value different things in our products.

Hmmmmmm........I think "personal opinions" pretty much sum up any "forum," n'est pas? Or did someone appoint YOU to determine the "facts" here?

I wouldn't buy a Toshiba laptop (although their screens are said to be the best in the industry), but there are a few things it has that I want on my next PowerBook - things in which this Toshiba exceeds current Ti standards:

1. CD-RW/DVD - major disappointment it's not on Ti - I thought Jobs learned his lesson with the G4's. There has been wide criticism of this. It
doesn't need to be removable, just build it in!
2. a decent graphics card, with 16 MB - minimum.
3. better sound system.

These SHOULD be included in the next version of Ti, with no price bump.

C

[qnc]

standards are always getting higher this toshiba seems reasonable but i love Mac put that super drive instaed of that DVD and we would get Cd-R/RW and DVD RAM also upgrade that VRAM and it will be cool The PBTi will improve its only natural I wish I had one now they are cool

[Pale Rider]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Pale Rider - not everyone can have a TiBook and a 733 G4
NeoMac - its a hell of a lot quicker than the TiBook can manage. Infinitely better actually.
And its about 18 minutes.

Look at all of you... jumping to Apples defense in the face of a superior machine... its only prob is it doesn't run the MacOS.

You keep making excuses... pathetic. I'm not even gona bother argueing this, its just ridiculous.

Cipher13

This thread started as an assertion that the "standard of excellence" has been raised, not the "standard of value." However, I'll take that bait anyway, and argue that the PBG4 represents a better value. Others here have laid out the specs. I have not said the Tosh is a bad machine; it is no doubt a decent computer.....if that is what you want. But it is not what I want. So, part of the value prop has to be the computing experience as well. In one sense, you cannot begin to compare PCs to Macs, because the Mac runs a system which is designed by folks who--even if I do not agree with all their choices--care far more about my computing experience than the folks who supply the PC OS. ArsTechnica's review of MacWorld discusses this factor in depth; check it out.

For my money--and that is in the end the deciding factor; you get to vote with your money, I get to vote with mine--the WinOS starts out with two strikes against it to begin with...because of the experience. It would take a machine that actually allows me to get it done faster than the Mac, with more elegance than the Mac, and with more personal statement than the Mac to be considered a change in the standard of excellence. Tech specs alone will not make that comparison, but ironically, many of the cited specs are not better than the PBG4. So, your "only problem" is huge in my view. Like bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Do I want more BTO options for the PBG4 in the future; of course. But I don't choose to decide that Apple has betrayed its loyal users just because I can see how this thing can be better.

As to whether or not anyone or everyone can afford a PBG4 and/or a 733 is not, IMHO, pertinent to this discussion. What, we should only accept or compare that which most can afford? Please. [Note: my employer has ordered the 733; I am paying for the PBG4 myself; so go roll your eyes in the mirror.] So, cipher13, if you think it is "pathetic" to say, "hey I like this machine [even though it can be better], and within its field, and its price ranges, it provides good value to me," well, as they say, it's a free country. But we could do with a little less name-calling.

And as for the other, salient, sensible question about the physical differences between the Pismo and the PBG4, yes, you bet the difference is noticeable. I was fortunate enought to be able to compare the two machines side-by-side at MacWorld, and that is what partially sold me. That and running OS X with a chip which has the capacity to drive the Quartz layer.

http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/t...am=Satellite&a oid=1073768051&poid=1073838110&action=none

So much for my link.
It is called the New Satellite 2805 Series find it at: http://www.toshiba.com/americas/

[tomywomy]

I've owned 3 toshiba laptops over the last 4 years (always top of the line) and they've all been garbage - high on the sex appeal scale and almost entirely unusable. In fact, I'm using a PowerBook at work now, because my IT department was only buying macs or Toshibas as laptops.
Here's some of the outstanding experiences I've had over the last few toshibas:
1: Startup time > 5 minutes.
2: Battery life under 20 minutes.
3: Entire battery consumed by formatting a floppy.
4: Video so slow that select-all in excel took 3 seconds, switching applications took 5 seconds to update just the screen.
5: Failed to recognize installed ram above 64 MB on a 196 MB installation
6: Memory test at startup took 3 minutes (no, not the same machine that took 5 minutes to start up)
7: Spontaneously rebooting without even going to the blue screen of death on windows NT workstation 4.0. You'd lose all your work since your last save. This would happen every hour!!!.
8: Hard crash always on attempting to put laptop to sleep.
9: Hot-docking and undocking don't work with windows NT.
10: Bizarre incompatibiliities with Novell Netware printing (failed to connect to certain printers that all other computers in the office could, and always had to print a banner page before each print job)

[iBorg]

Originally posted by Pale Rider:
This thread started as an assertion that the "standard of excellence" has been raised, not the "standard of value." However, I'll take that bait anyway, and argue that the PBG4 represents a better value. Others here have laid out the specs. I have not said the Tosh is a bad machine; it is no doubt a decent computer.....if that is what you want. But it is not what I want.

As you began, this thread ISN'T about value, but rather about higher standards of performance and features. I, of course, MUCH prefer the Mac, and look forward to seeing these items included in the next Ti version.

Whether or not you, individually, want these features is irrelevant to anyone except you - if they are features desired by a significant market segment, they ARE important to Apple, and thus to those of us who want to see the Mac not only survive, but prosper!

I agree that Ti is an excellent "value," but as competitors add these features, without increasing the price, I expect, and look forward to, Apple including these in the Ti that I will likely upgrade to later this year (from my 2000 Firewire 500!)



iBorg