[macvillage.net]

An interesting article that pretty much reiterates my point about our education system allowing many to slip buy with terrible educations (to put it nicely):

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation...School%20Tests

Noteworthy:

"The content measured on the tests is taught, on average, at the 8th grade level internationally," the report noted. "The material on the exams states are using as a requirement for high school graduation is considered middle school content in most other countries."

Having taken it, I got a good chuckle out of this one:

The researchers said New Jersey had the most rigorous reading test, followed by Texas and Massachusetts.

I'd hate to see what the worst tests are. I was in a regular english class (non honors or AP for me).... it was really a joke. Just about everything was literal. Nothing I didn't know prior to High School. Read a little easy story, and answer a few questions. No tricks, no insight, no reading between the lines. No big words... no relation to the SAT's .


Why not just move these tests to middle school where they really belong? That way kids don't enter High School before they are ready (I think a few states do have tests to enter high school... but not all... curious, anyone have to do that?).


In a sense, it's almost funny... but in another sense, it's rather pathetic. A 'high' score in these tests can still be below-average in real life.

It's really is pretty degrading to take a test in High School where the toughest math question is basic multiplication AND subtraction in the same question.

No wonder it's so hard to get the correct change at fast food places. All the people who work there passed these stupid tests.

Anyone else have memories of these silly tests?

My class was the one that had to 'beta test' the new 'tougher' exams... they actually expected us to spend 3hrs doing a test that doesn't count... for the essay portion I wrote a dirty story about myself and the reviewer's mother And I just made patterns with the dots on the answer sheet for the rest. So did everyone else. We all finished in about 7 minutes and talked until the end of the test period.... they decided the tests needed to be revised, so they postponed deployment yet another year

Perhaps next time they will use a better method to benchmark... like the SAT's do, with the extra section where you don't know which one it is (or is that patented?)

[itai195]

California may have a test for high school entrance now, but I finished school before all these testing requirements began... I did have to take a test to get into private high school, but it was pretty easy. I'm amazed by the low education levels that states are testing for, I guess I was lucky to attend good public and private schools.

I'd add that the SAT's aren't a good model to use for this purpose. The SAT exam measures expected performance for a first year of college. An SAT2 style exam is probably more appropriate for high school graduation.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by itai195:
California may have a test for high school entrance now, but I finished school before all these testing requirements began... I did have to take a test to get into private high school, but it was pretty easy. I'm amazed by the low education levels that states are testing for, I guess I was lucky to attend good public and private schools.

I'd add that the SAT's aren't a good model to use for this purpose. The SAT exam measures expected performance for a first year of college. An SAT2 style exam is probably more appropriate for high school graduation.

Agreed.

That test for private high school... SSAT by any chance?

I took that too for applying to a private high school... that was pretty tough, since it was supposed to cover those who come in later (sophomore, jr, sr). As an 8th grader... that was a headache. Using that SAT predictor forumula, it did predict my SAT scores within 50 pts though. So it does say something for the quality of the test.

[Essex63110]

The american school system needs to be reformed immediately. You're last place in geography for example, and this has to change.

[itai195]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Agreed.

That test for private high school... SSAT by any chance?

I don't recall, but I'll try to look it up. It was an easy test for me, I scored in the 99th percentile on it. At the time, the school I ended up attending only used those test scores for admitting honors students (about 10% of the class). The other 90% got in thanks primarily to athletics. Nowadays their academic standards are much higher, partially because they've built them up on the shoulders of my class and the one before mine. I don't know if I should be jealous or proud of what they've been able to achieve thanks to us (mostly, I'm jealous and upset).

One thing that we seem to need is more equitable distribution of funds and teaching talent. My girlfriend's mother teaches at an elite public elementary school in a wealthy neighborhood, and it's part of the same district that elsewhere has dillapidated, inner city schools with a glaring lack of administrative competence and talented staff. What I'd suggest is for administrators and politicians to actually listen to what the teachers have to say! It's incredible how the opinions of teachers, people who actually understand the educational process, are constantly ignored. California's public education system is in real peril, because demographic projections indicate that we need to rapidly expand our system, but we lack political initiative, funds, and teachers. One of the reasons that I do like Arnie is that he struck me as one of the few politicans who is actually willing to address this issue, though I'm not sure if he's been able to do anything about it yet.

[BRussell]

Did anyone think our education system exceeds the world? Our universities are pretty good, I think the best system in the world, but not our high schools.

About the SAT: I think it, and the others like it, are essentially IQ tests. There are even formulas available for converting your SAT to an IQ score - I can get it if you're interested.

[macvillage.net]

I've seen a few of those forumula's... I'm curious about yours if you don't mind.

They all go roughly along the same lines, but a little skew either direction.

I love this stuff (wonder how accurate they really are though... the SAT is ever so slightly bias in a sense towards sex, and even geographic region of the US, if you look at the questions).

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by BRussell:
Did anyone think our education system exceeds the world?

I've never seen anyone even attempt to make that argument.

Our school system is a shambles and most people know it.

[soul searching]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
I've never seen anyone even attempt to make that argument.

Our school system is a shambles and most people know it.

Many people make the argument that our university system is very good, if not the best.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by soul searching:
Many people make the argument that our university system is very good, if not the best.

Right, but talking public grade schools.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
I've seen a few of those forumula's... I'm curious about yours if you don't mind.

They all go roughly along the same lines, but a little skew either direction.

I love this stuff (wonder how accurate they really are though... the SAT is ever so slightly bias in a sense towards sex, and even geographic region of the US, if you look at the questions).

From this article that just came out.

IQ = (.095 * SATMath) + (-.003 * SATVerbal) + 50.241

Of course, as with all these things, this equation is going to work great for the sample from which it was derived, and won't be so accurate for new cases. But it gives you an idea of the relationship. Note that the math section has a nice size coefficient (.095), but the verbal has a small but negative coefficient (-.003). So the worse you do on the verbal section, the higher your IQ.

[macvillage.net]

So a perfect SAT score (assuming 0 on verbal is 'perfect' for the terms of this conversion), your only getting 126.241

http://iq-test.learninginfo.org/iq04.htm

which is 'superior'

[voyageur]

Either there's something wrong with my math skills (okay, I was one of those who did a lot better on the verbal SAT than the Math ) but with that formula a perfect pair of SAT scores gives you only an IQ of 124.

edit: macvillage and I replied at the same time!

[itai195]

That formula sucks. There was an IQ thread in the lounge a month ago where I linked to a table that translates SAT to IQ scores. Seemed much more reasonable. I've never taken an IQ test, though, so I don't know how accurate it was either.

[voyageur]

Back on topic, I think the low expectations of the high school graduation tests might be what's biting college students in the butt later. It's easy to get through high school, but a lot tougher to get through college: apparently only 63% of American students finish college within 6 years. The number is even lower for Black and Latino students, many of whom come out of poor school districts.

[macvillage.net]

I'm 550/550... 100 IQ... almost exactly in the middle (50%).

Then again... does it count only the first time you take it? Or if you take it several times, and take a course to improve? I know some people jump a few hundred points after a few courses on the SAT's. Which counts?

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
So a perfect SAT score (assuming 0 on verbal is 'perfect' for the terms of this conversion), your only getting 126.241

http://iq-test.learninginfo.org/iq04.htm

which is 'superior'

It's not possible to get less than 200, no matter what you do. That this formula doesn't normalize for that is it's first strike. So, max possible IQ via this method is 125.641. Min possible is 66.841.

IOW, it might only work for the middle IQ range.

BG

[BRussell]

1. Despite the threads here where everyone says they have an IQ above 150, an IQ score higher than the mid 120s is very rare.
2. When predicting one thing from something else, there's always regression, i.e., you're not going to get an extreme prediction because prediction is always imperfect.

itai, can you link to that table? I'm just curious what it looks like. It's really pretty easy to do - just get a large group of people for whom you have both SAT scores and (legitimate) IQ scores, and any stats program will give it to you in the form of a regression equation.

[itai195]

Here it is. This table is from a recent Case Western study. I'd like to take an IQ test because this indicates I'd havea pretty high one, but then I'd rather spend a sunny weekend outside having fun

I wouldn't generally put much faith into these comparisons, at least because the SAT is very coachable.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by itai195:
Here it is. This table is from a recent Case Western study. I'd like to take an IQ test because this indicates I'd havea pretty high one, but then I'd rather spend a sunny weekend outside having fun

I wouldn't generally put much faith into these comparisons, at least because the SAT is very coachable.

Hmm, the Case Western study is probably the same one I linked to above, and that formula comes from them. I think that table is something different. It says:

I did these calculations using a method similar to that for my GRE to IQ Estimator. The lowest point of reference was the theoretical average IQ of high school students being 110 and the current average SAT I V+M (verbal + math) score being 1019. Everything below that is extrapolation.

If I understand what he's doing, you just can't do that. I mean, I could come up with a shoe size-IQ conversion table by taking the mean shoe size, equating that to the mean IQ, and then "extrapolating" up and down. The formula has to be based on the relationship between the two measures; the better the relationship, the higher/lower your predictions of IQ can be.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by itai195:
Here it is. This table is from a recent Case Western study. I'd like to take an IQ test because this indicates I'd havea pretty high one, but then I'd rather spend a sunny weekend outside having fun

I wouldn't generally put much faith into these comparisons, at least because the SAT is very coachable.

Well on this one...

1150 119.60 120.90 90.429

That's one hell of a difference.

[itai195]

I didn't say it was a good table, just more reasonable than making 1600 = 124

But none of us are below 110 anyway. It says it's accurate from 100 and above. There was another comparison table linked in here a long time ago, but I couldn't remember the URL.

[soul searching]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
Right, but talking public grade schools.

Right, I agree with you and thus disagree with him, which is why I said that people tend to make the US-has-a-better-school-system argument about universities (not grade schools like macvillage.net said).

[SimeyTheLimey]

I don't know how much stock to put in these comparisons. I did high school in England in a state school (they call them Comprehensives). Something like 90% of my class left school at 16 and that was more or less the end of their secondary education. And that was in what was considered to be a good high school in a middle class town.

I think a lot of the supposed inadequacies of American secondary education simply comes from the fact that we try to educate everyone up to age 18 in an academic setting, wheras other countries more ruthlessly weed people out of the academic stream and into vocational education (or jobs, or the dole). If you include the entire bell curve rather than just the top of it, you will obviously get lower average results. And if you try to cater to the entire bell curve, you get a bit of dumbing down.

Another thing to remember is that the US has mostly 4 year college degrees, wheras AFAIK most of (say) Europe has 3 year college degrees. The first year of a US college degree is like the last year of a European academic-stream secondary education. The question isn't what the education is going in, it's what you have coming out. And on that, I don't think the US does that badly, especially when you consider the fact that the US higher education system has traditionally been far more accessible than the relatively elite and restricted systems that much of the world uses.

As in all things, if you don't compare like with like, you don't get a good comparison.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Essex63110:
The american school system needs to be reformed immediately. You're last place in geography for example, and this has to change.

You better stop saying that about us or we're gonna come down to South America and kick your European Union butts

[badidea]

Originally posted by Krusty:
You better stop saying that about us or we're gonna come down to South America and kick your European Union butts

What's South America? Florida??

[PacHead]

Originally posted by Essex63110:
The american school system needs to be reformed immediately. You're last place in geography for example, and this has to change.

The German economic system needs to be reformed immediately. Your unemployment rate is similiar to that of third world countries, and this has to change. I'm sure all of that vast geographic knowledge helps out when standing on the unemployment line.

[Essex63110]

The German economic system needs to be reformed immediately. Your unemployment rate is similiar to that of third world countries, and this has to change. I'm sure all of that vast geographic knowledge helps out when standing on the unemployment line.

We have to pay for 40 years of communism in east germany, you don't. The unemployment rate in west germany is around 3%, in east germany sometimes over 25%.
Third world countries have a higher unemployment rate, too.
And even that 10% of all germans don't work we still export more then you do
And at least germans have not forgot what "social security" means, but you're right, reforms are necessary

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Essex63110:
We have to pay for 40 years of communism in east germany, you don't. The unemployment rate in west germany is around 3%, in east germany sometimes over 25%.
Third world countries have a higher unemployment rate, too.
And even that 10% of all germans don't work we still export more then you do
And at least germans have not forgot what "social security" means, but you're right, reforms are necessary

According to this German unemployment in most of the western regions of Germany is quite a bit higher than 3%. It ranges from 3.8% in Oberbayern up to 11.2% in Bremen and 9% in Hamburg. Most of your better-performing regions have roughly the average US figure. But of course, if we cherry picked like that (ignoring our worst-performing regions) we could come up with a low number to quote too.

Your unemployment is a direct result of choices you have made. Americans have chosen productivity over security. There is clearly no chance of Germany making the decisions needed to bring unemployment down, because that would involve doing things you don't want to do. I'd say most Americans feel the same about our economy. Most Americans seem to equate social security with the personal security that comes from earning a living. Maybe that's part of our culture.

By the way, take a look at Hungary's unempoyment rate and compare it to the eastern region of Germany. Very interesting.

[Essex63110]

And exactly this is a problem in the american society... Why do you have so many problems? Why do you have the highest crime rate in the world, why do you have 60% of all american children living under the poverty line, why do you have the worst health care system in the western world?! Because your society just cares about profit, which is wrong. Those who saw "bowling for columbine" know what i mean.
The higher rate in Hamburg is also a result of the reunification because it slowed down our whole economy. Wouldn't be better in america...

By the way, i don't know anybody who is unemployed and i'm not living in Oberbayern...

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I don't know how much stock to put in these comparisons. I did high school in England in a state school (they call them Comprehensives). Something like 90% of my class left school at 16 and that was more or less the end of their secondary education. And that was in what was considered to be a good high school in a middle class town.

I think a lot of the supposed inadequacies of American secondary education simply comes from the fact that we try to educate everyone up to age 18 in an academic setting, wheras other countries more ruthlessly weed people out of the academic stream and into vocational education (or jobs, or the dole). If you include the entire bell curve rather than just the top of it, you will obviously get lower average results. And if you try to cater to the entire bell curve, you get a bit of dumbing down.

Another thing to remember is that the US has mostly 4 year college degrees, wheras AFAIK most of (say) Europe has 3 year college degrees. The first year of a US college degree is like the last year of a European academic-stream secondary education. The question isn't what the education is going in, it's what you have coming out. And on that, I don't think the US does that badly, especially when you consider the fact that the US higher education system has traditionally been far more accessible than the relatively elite and restricted systems that much of the world uses.

As in all things, if you don't compare like with like, you don't get a good comparison.

That's a really good point

I had an interesting discussion today about this, prompted by a radio news story on college...

The overwhelming majority of HS Seniors are pretty much forced by society to attend college... when according to a report, most would be better suited in another environment (such as a vocational school).

Kind of ironic how a master plummer or electrician is 'blue collar', but can still make up to $500,000/year. Yet those are considered undesirable jobs.

People make a big deal about how these jobs are 'bad'... yet they actually pay more than many office jobs.

Originally posted by Essex63110:
And exactly this is a problem in the american society... Why do you have so many problems? Why do you have the highest crime rate in the world, why do you have 60% of all american children living under the poverty line, why do you have the worst health care system in the western world?! Because your society just cares about profit, which is wrong. Those who saw "bowling for columbine" know what i mean.
The higher rate in Hamburg is also a result of the reunification because it slowed down our whole economy. Wouldn't be better in america...

By the way, i don't know anybody who is unemployed and i'm not living in Oberbayern...

According to many unfortuantely, those are all good things. Crime=jobs (police, lawyers, etc.). Poverty means the rich have more buying power, etc.

[badidea]

Originally posted by Essex63110:
...
By the way, i don't know anybody who is unemployed and i'm not living in Oberbayern...

I used to be unemployed for seven months!
(but you're right, you don't know me)

And yes, Germany has an unemployment problem (wow, someone found something negative about Germany ) but we also paid more than �1,000,000,000,000 to rebuild Eastern Germany...

[Millennium]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Essex63110:
[B]And exactly this is a problem in the american society... Why do you have so many problems? Why do you have the highest crime rate in the world, why do you have 60% of all american children living under the poverty line,

why do you have the worst health care system in the western world?!

That's debatable. It's well-known that we don't enslave doctors to the government, but on the other hand, the US has a quality of healthcare that just plain isn't available in most other places. I remind you also that it's forbidden by law to turn away someone from emergency care simply because of inability to pay.

I do think that all employers should be required to make available a healthcare plan of their choosing (the unemployed already have Medicare/Medicaid), and that this plan must be made available to all employees regardless of PT/FT status, pay, or anything else (or, if a range of plans is offered, then the full range must be made available). I do not believe that nationalizing the entire system is the solution.

And yes, under this system, some people might choose not to have health insurance. If they make that choice, then it's their choice, and no one has any right to say otherwise. Healthcare is a nice thing to have, but it is not an inborn right.

Because your society just cares about profit, which is wrong.

It's also wrong to say that our society just cares about profit. What we do care about is independence and personal responsibility.

Those who saw "bowling for columbine" know what i mean.

Treating that thing as gospel-esque fact is not a wise thing to do.

[Sven G]

The education system, of course, sucks in the whole world - not only in the US (even if, there, the contradictions between what is and what should/could be, as always, tend to be much more evident). Today's "knowledge" is becoming more and more tailored towards quick-and-dirty, corporate-style "expendable-on-the-market" education: very, very bad, IMHO...

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Millennium:
That's debatable. It's well-known that we don't enslave doctors to the government, but on the other hand, the US has a quality of healthcare that just plain isn't available in most other places. I remind you also that it's forbidden by law to turn away someone from emergency care simply because of inability to pay.

The law says your required to releve the emergency, not 'treat'. Several TV shows including E.R. have controversally made a point of this.

It's one thing to stitch up a wound.... but that's not always 'treatment'. In many cases, 'treatment' is a much longer process.

The law covers emergencies... once they are stable... they are out.

Stable doesn't mean well. You can have cancer, and be stable.

This is something many doctors/nurses have trouble ajusting to. Knowing they could help, but the hospital doesn't have the bugdget to do so.

There are many discharged every day after the surface wounds are cared for as provided by law... but their real health problems are intentionally ignored.

Also note the quality of care varies. Various medical studies have found the quality of care is very closely related to all this. The more your paying, the better quality doctor, facilities, medication, and care.

Look at some various forms of cancer, and survival statistics. Things like cervical cancer are EXTREMELY curable... almost no woman should ever die from it. it's easy to test for, and treat early on. There's no excuse for more than a handful (to be generious) dying from it... but quite a few do. Testicular cancer, skin cancer are also is also highly curable when caught early (since signs are easy to detect, well before it's capable of spreading... but many die. Look at the demographics of this unfortuanate group.

Tuberculosis is also extremely easy to test for. Can be found early, and medication can get rid of it early on well before any illness or ability to spread catches on (only spreads when it's in it's later stages... you can have it for years with no signs).... but look how many still have it. Despite being easy to diagnose and treat. The worst part of the treatment is that the medication can react with dairy and seafood, so those need to be avoided for a few months while on the medication... and the medication must be taken on time, every day, for months... but it's something nobody should be dying from, and by now, something that should be impossible to catch, since you should never be exposed to it... but people still catch it on airplanes, buses, trains and other enclosed spaces. It still exists here in the US... all these years later. It could be the way of polio if we didn't like it.

[entrox]

I've never been to the US nor did I ever meet an (typical) American student, but from what I've read, the average education seems to be pretty poor. The sad thing is that Germany seems to be no better IMHO. I regularly see (foreign) kids who were born here, but are unable to speak proper German. I see kids who are unable to correctly divide 10 by 3 or calculate how much 16% of 50� is. I have once seen students on TV who didn't know why there is a leap-year or even how many days there are in one regular year. Students, who are about to finish the highest school (Abitur), wrongly associate colours to the political parties or worse ("Schr�der? Isn't he from the CDU?").

Granted, those are extreme examples, but something seems to be going into the wrong direction. From what I can gather, the Scandinavians are doing much better. Personally, I blame the typical classroom setting: teacher stands in front of the class and talks, asks questions, scribbles something on the blackboard, gets angry because half of the pupils are asleep, talks... repeat ad nauseam. No real interaction or individual support. If you didn't understand it you'll fall behind, begin to bore yourself, fall even farther behind and so on.

University isn't much better in this regard ("Bla bla bla, now we have proven that this problem is NP-complete. If you don't understand something this simple, you shouldn't be studying anyway."). Great times.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
"The material on the exams states are using as a requirement for high school graduation is considered middle school content in most other countries."

Oooh... what a big point your're making with that one. Well, the material on those exams are considered middle school material here as well. 85% of my high school class who took the test past it freshmen year (9th grade).

[itai195]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
85% of my high school class who took the test past it freshmen year (9th grade).

Must not have tested homonyms.

Essex: At the risk of sounding xenophobic, I don't think anyone appreciates such a simplistic evaluation of American society. Our problems don't all boil down to the simple excuse that 'we just care about profits' just as your problems don't all boil down to the equally overused and simple excuse 'it's all because of reunification.' We do not have the worst healthcare in the western world, where did you read that? Comparing crime rates straight across isn't exactly fair either, because there are a lot of variables involved (such as the quality of law enforcement). To illustrate how ludicrous it is, I remember hearing that the Vatican had one of the highest crime rates in the world in 2002, close to 90%! And almost anytime an American travels to Europe, the most common piece of advice they'll be given is to watch out for crime, especially pickpockets. I don't know how true that is, but ignorance is a two way street.

[Essex63110]

@macvillage: It seems we have different oppinions about what should be and what not. Germanys constitution says it's a social state, and so far it really is. As long as you're not ill, handicapped or have other problems the american system might work fine, but not for everybody.

@entrox: Thats right, but the Erstw�hlercheck was not representive for the whole republic. You can find that everywhere and anytime. The brother of a friend of mine has been studying in america for one year. Here are just some examples what has happened to him:

-He was asked if he came by train
-He was asked if germans had cars (he answered: BMW, Mercedes, VW, Porsche?)
-An american has asked him if we had microwaves while he was pointing at a microwave of Siemens (=german company)
-He was asked if Hitler is still alive and if his birthday is a holiday
-He was asked if we had energy from electric outlets
-An american thought Germany and england would share a border ()
-The same guy thought Germany was part of Austria which was part of Australia
-He was asked if we still hate jews. He asked back if americans still had slaves.
-Ab american was proud to tell him how a toaster works
-He was greeted several times with "Heil"
-to be continued

Just some examples...

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Essex63110:
@macvillage: It seems we have different oppinions about what should be and what not. Germanys constitution says it's a social state, and so far it really is. As long as you're not ill, handicapped or have other problems the american system might work fine, but not for everybody.

@entrox: Thats right, but the Erstw�hlercheck was not representive for the whole republic. You can find that everywhere and anytime. The brother of a friend of mine has been studying in america for one year. Here are just some examples what has happened to him:

-He was asked if he came by train
-He was asked if germans had cars (he answered: BMW, Mercedes, VW, Porsche?)
-An american has asked him if we had microwaves while he was pointing at a microwave of Siemens (=german company)
-He was asked if Hitler is still alive and if his birthday is a holiday
-He was asked if we had energy from electric outlets
-An american thought Germany and england would share a border ()
-The same guy thought Germany was part of Austria which was part of Australia
-He was asked if we still hate jews. He asked back if americans still had slaves.
-Ab american was proud to tell him how a toaster works
-He was greeted several times with "Heil"
-to be continued

Just some examples...

The brother of a friend of mine was in Germany. He was attacked for being black.

My second cousins best friends dog was hit by a VW.

A german asked my uncles best friends third cousin if America was an island.

My sister's daughters nephew in law said that a German person asked him if he was a jew lover.

My Grandfathers army buddy said that a German person couldn't understand the concept of HEARSAY and BULLSH!T

[itai195]

Wow, we've now conclusively determined that there are stupid people everywhere. Earth shattering, really.

[Essex63110]

@dcolton: As i said: You can find this everywhere, in every country and anytime. What we should not do is generalize because 99% of all gemrans don't dislike jews or blacks.

[deedar]

All it takes is a quick look at some of the threads on this board to debunk any notions about the superiority of American education.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Essex63110:
@entrox: Thats right, but the Erstw�hlercheck was not representive for the whole republic. You can find that everywhere and anytime.

PISA-Studie.

Ring a bell?

That was *quite* representative, and aspects of it were absolutely dismal.

[Joshua]

Originally posted by Essex63110:
@entrox: Thats right, but the Erstw�hlercheck was not representive for the whole republic. You can find that everywhere and anytime. The brother of a friend of mine has been studying in america for one year. Here are just some examples what has happened to him:

-He was asked if he came by train
-He was asked if germans had cars (he answered: BMW, Mercedes, VW, Porsche?)
-An american has asked him if we had microwaves while he was pointing at a microwave of Siemens (=german company)
-He was asked if Hitler is still alive and if his birthday is a holiday
-He was asked if we had energy from electric outlets
-An american thought Germany and england would share a border ()
-The same guy thought Germany was part of Austria which was part of Australia
-He was asked if we still hate jews. He asked back if americans still had slaves.
-Ab american was proud to tell him how a toaster works
-He was greeted several times with "Heil"
-to be continued

Just some examples...

Is your friend's brother as lovable and cuddly as you are being right now?

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Essex63110:
@macvillage: It seems we have different oppinions about what should be and what not. Germanys constitution says it's a social state, and so far it really is. As long as you're not ill, handicapped or have other problems the american system might work fine, but not for everybody.

My point is it doesn't work well. It's pretty batty to be honest.

Look at how low the reading competency skills are in inner city schools. They are insane.

But we are told we have 'the best' education system in the world, unlike any other.

The education system is crap.


What's really offensive about it, is that it could really be world class, and blow other countries out of the water. There's really no good reason why it couldn't, other than people don't want it to. And better education leads to less crime... less crime means less work for a few people (lawyers, cops, doctors for gunshot wounds etc...).. perhaps that's the real reason?

Our system is really pretty pathetic. We let morons graduate through "social promotion", making our deploma's really quite worthless (since they don't show achievement, but that you lived until 18 years of age and attended XX days).

Really is a shame. There's potential, but many barriers against putting it to good use.