[vmarks]

Originally posted by Taliesin:


But seriously a real compromise would be a 50-50 division of the palestinian land between Israel and the palestinians.

Taliesin

Offered time and time again, and at every chance, the Palestinians chose war. Isn't this like a person murdering his mother and father and then asking mercy of the court because he is now an orphan?

All the United Nations did by partitioning Palestine was to grant the Jewish majority in the land area allocated to the Jewish state, the right of self-determination.

[thunderous_funker]

If you're going to question whether or not various Arab groups can legitimately call themselves Palestinian and make a claim on those lands, then I guess we'll have to ask all the European born Jews to undergo the same scrutiny.

What percentage of Israelis can actually claim to be descendants of the original inhabitants?

There is no army in the middle east that can even hope to threaten Israel. It's time to go back to the pre-war borders and move on from this tragic conflict.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
If you're going to question whether or not various Arab groups can legitimately call themselves Palestinian and make a claim on those lands, then I guess we'll have to ask all the European born Jews to undergo the same scrutiny.

What percentage of Israelis can actually claim to be descendants of the original inhabitants?

There is no army in the middle east that can even hope to threaten Israel. It's time to go back to the pre-war borders and move on from this tragic conflict.

decendants of the original inhabitants? how far back you wanna go? is your family decendants of the original inhabitants of the area of portland? are you native american? we could go back maybe when there were other people.

[Logic]

Originally posted by Splinter:
decendants of the original inhabitants? how far back you wanna go? is your family decendants of the original inhabitants of the area of portland? are you native american? we could go back maybe when there were other people.

k, let's simplify the question for you.

How many of the current Israeli Jewish citizens are born in Israel?

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by Splinter:
decendants of the original inhabitants? how far back you wanna go? is your family decendants of the original inhabitants of the area of portland? are you native american? we could go back maybe when there were other people.

You and vmarks are the ones who started this line of questioning by suggesting it was Jewish land long before it was Arab land.

Fine. If you want to settle based on who has an ancestral claim to the physical land then lets ask all the people with no direct geneological connection to the territories to leave. That would be fair woudldn't it?

[Splinter]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
You and vmarks are the ones who started this line of questioning by suggesting it was Jewish land long before it was Arab land.

Fine. If you want to settle based on who has an ancestral claim to the physical land then lets ask all the people with no direct geneological connection to the territories to leave. That would be fair woudldn't it?

if they dont quit suicide bombing hell yeah thats logical... the ones who want to live there make a living can do so no problem we dont care if they are arab or any other race if they dont want us dead we could care less who they are.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by Logic:
k, let's simplify the question for you.

How many of the current Israeli Jewish citizens are born in Israel?

after 57 years.... quite a few. probably over 50% by now... but who knows, how many of the 13 colonies citizens were born there after 57 years?

[Logic]

Originally posted by Splinter:
after 57 years.... quite a few. probably over 50% by now... but who knows, how many of the 13 colonies citizens were born there after 57 years?

Actually it's a whole whopping 20%. Source

Yet you claim that you own the land rather than the people who have always lived there........

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Offered time and time again, and at every chance, the Palestinians chose war. Isn't this like a person murdering his mother and father and then asking mercy of the court because he is now an orphan?

Actually nothing in that regard was offered by Israel. Israel never wanted to do peace, they en contraire indeed wanted to expand even more and did so. The dream of the zionists was to recreate ancient Israel, and that was much bigger than the Israel of 48 and still bigger than Israel of today.

You may hint at the old offerings of the UN to the just-massively-driven-out-from-their-lands-and-homes-palestinians to have an own state back in 48, right there were they took refuge. Understandably they didn't want that, they wanted back to their lands and homes.

Originally posted by vmarks:
All the United Nations did by partitioning Palestine was to grant the Jewish majority in the land area allocated to the Jewish state, the right of self-determination.

All the United Nations did was to fulfill the wish of the US to create an independent US-military and US-spybase in the middle-east with the name Israel, and the zionists and jews in general were just instrumentalised to that effect.

Taliesin

[thunderous_funker]

My point was to illustrate how useless it is to try and debate who has ancestral claim on the territory. I'm not particularly interested in anything before the UN created Israel. As for as I'm concerned, that fight is over.

The PLO also agreed that fight was over in 1993. Israel exists. The borders were set. The problem remains that Israel (justified or not) continues to illegally occupy land outside its legal borders. The is 100% of the issue. Everything else is secondary.

Arguing that Arabs have no claim on the disputed territories is utterly unfounded unless you want to throw out everything done since 1937 and start all over drawing the borders.

I don't think that's useful.

[itai195]

I agree t_f, but that's why I found it objectionable to even bring up the 47% figure from the UN partition plan -- that deal is gone, it was unilaterally rejected and the Arabs have to live with those consequences. It's also a inaccurate to suggest that Oslo promised the Palestinians 100% of the territory in Gaza and the West Bank, not to suggest that I would find a deal like that unacceptable.

Originally posted by Taliesin:
The dream of the zionists was to recreate ancient Israel, and that was much bigger than the Israel of 48 and still bigger than Israel of today

That's false in general, though I admit there are a bunch of crazy settlers (only about 20% of the settlement movement) who certainly think so. Comments like this are just scaremongering -- many Israelis would have been happy with even less territory than the partition granted.

[Logic]

Originally posted by itai195:
That's false in general, though I admit there are a bunch of crazy settlers (only about 20% of the settlement movement) who certainly think so. Comments like this are just scaremongering -- many Israelis would have been happy with even less territory than the partition granted.

If they are so many why don't the elect leaders that will work towards that?

[itai195]

Originally posted by Logic:
If they are so many why don't the elect leaders that will work towards that?

Towards what? I was talking about 1947.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Splinter:
This has been brought up before and this seems like a good time to bring it up again... Tal maybe you can answer.





Remmember this the next time you call it Palestinian land. Anything we give back is ours to give back. < notice the period

Here's a link that Logic posted on my thread last week. Real solid background info along the lines of your question.

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561...2561150071fdb0

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by itai195:
That's false in general, though I admit there are a bunch of crazy settlers (only about 20% of the settlement movement) who certainly think so. Comments like this are just scaremongering -- many Israelis would have been happy with even less territory than the partition granted.

If you would have read carefully you would have seen that I said, that the recreation of the ancient Big Israel is/was a dream of the zionists, not the Israelis in general. The zionists are a part of Israel, and the deciding part that was instrumentalised by the US to create Israel in the first place.

Taliesin

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
If you would have read carefully you would have seen that I said, that the recreation of the ancient Big Israel is/was a dream of the zionists, not the Israelis in general. The zionists are a part of Israel, and the deciding part that was instrumentalised by the US to create Israel in the first place.

Taliesin

WHAT DO YOU WANT?????

[itai195]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
If you would have read carefully you would have seen that I said, that the recreation of the ancient Big Israel is/was a dream of the zionists, not the Israelis in general. The zionists are a part of Israel, and the deciding part that was instrumentalised by the US to create Israel in the first place.

The zionists consist of pretty much every Israeli citizen, otherwise they probably wouldn't live there. Either way, please prove your claim that every zionist dreams of recreating ancient Israel... does the proof depend on excerpts from the 'Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion?'

[Logic]

Originally posted by itai195:
The zionists consist of pretty much every Israeli citizen, otherwise they probably wouldn't live there. Either way, please prove your claim that every zionist dreams of recreating ancient Israel... does the proof depend on excerpts from the 'Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion?'

Well there were Jews living there that wanted nothing to do with the foreigners who started Zionism. Many just wanted to continue to live in peace with the Palestinians and if anything get an independent Palestine to live in. Unfortunately some thought it would be more important to listen to people that had never actually lived there and try to split the region in two.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Logic:
Well there were Jews living there that wanted nothing to do with the foreigners who started Zionism. Many just wanted to continue to live in peace with the Palestinians and if anything get an independent Palestine to live in. Unfortunately some thought it would be more important to listen to people that had never actually lived there and try to split the region in two.

While I readily admit I'm new to the details of this long-assed conflict, maybe a new set of eyes can help bring about a change in attitudes.

What good does it do to dredge up ancient history?

There are certain things we all must simply accept, and from there, make our own happiness.

The Zionists are still around and they are a minority. Whether ALL of them actually are committed to a revitalized 'Kingdom' or some of them adopt the Zionist cause as a bargaining tool, is unimportant. Their aims will not be realized.

On the other hand, there is a case that could be made that the Palestinians who lived there before the Partitioning were 'wronged' by the UN decision and the whole state of Israel has no right to exist and the Israeli's should be forced to leave.

Well, THAT's not gonna happen, either.

So where do you two crazy kids go from here?

The only POSSIBLE solution seems to be the two state proposal.

Sharon faces internal opposition from BOTH sides no matter what he does.

Arafat has stood in the way, dragged his feet, and acted against the best interests of his people and the creation/recognition of formal Palestinian statehood.

vmarks asserted that even a 50/50 split has been refused.

wassup wit dat???

edit: and PLEASE don't dredge up ancient history...let's deal with today and tomorrow, ok?

[Logic]

You want me to tell you why it was ignored but still only talk about today and tomorrow?

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Logic:
Why does Israel and it's supporters expect the quasi state of Palestine to be able to root out and prosecute terrorists when Israel, supported by the west in all ways possible, hasn't been able to do that? I'd really like to know.

And it's not the Palestinian authority that finds the traitors and judges them, it's the resistance movement and they have every right to do that, IMO.

NO THEY DON'T HAVE ANY SUCH RIGHT! SHAME ON YOU LOGIC!

If the PA is the recognized legal authority, then no, the resistance movement is actively working to undermine the authority of the Palestinian government. The resistance is subverting any hope for peace. The resistance is finding, judging and executing the REAL Palestinian patriots (those trying to facilitate peace, dammit. PEACE!!!!) and the resistance is not held accountable by ANYONE.

The Israelis don't have the same access, trust, intelligence network or ease of travel/communication in the Palestinan territories as the Palestinian AUTHORITIES. You very casually toss off any expectation that the responsibility, COULD, SHOULD AND MUST be that of the Palestinian AUTHORITIES.

That's what the word means! TAKING AUTHORITY FOR GOVERNING!!!

If the Israelis did for the Palestinian people what needed to be done there (rightfully the job of the palestinian leadership!), the Palestinians would have had a homeland, and been living in freedom and be self governing a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago.

You expect the IDF to identify and round up terrorists?

If the Palestinians gave the Israeli Army the AUTHORITY for governing Palestine, it would have been done well and to MOST everyone's satisfaction.

The Israelis helped train and equip the P.A. internal security force or police force or whatever its called. And it was later discovered the cops used their guns and etc. to help promote or commit terrorist acts.

What kind of Palestinian leadership allows THAT?

The Palestinians deserve a better set of leaders than they have had. The Israelis deserve a better neighboring government and partner for peace.

(Don't say it's the Israeli's fault! Take responsibility, dammit.)

Victimhood and the entitlement mentality CAN be learned and the Palestinian leaders seem to be teaching this to every succeeding generation.

A few years ago I heard someone make an unflattering comparison of the palestinian people (very much generalizing) and American inner-city blacks.

I didn't like the comparison for either group and I STILL don't like it.

But after reading a bit from the scores of documents and articles on this situation, I can understand why that unflattering comparison was made. There are generations upon generations of inner-city blacks who grow up on welfare and start families based on the unhealthy expectation of getting something for nothing. It saps the soul and kills the character in man and makes of him a new, loathesome creature.

He adopts a 'get-over' mentality. "Getting over on the man" means taking advantage of authority to get what one is not entitled, to lie or cheat to serve the goal of continued entitlement.

In that kind of lifestyle and with said mindset, using the "man's"
kind heartedness and generosity against him is a game that the 'playa' wins when he's able to perpetuate that sick mindset and lifestyle, but it's a game the "man" can never win.

But even worse, the 'playa' never wins either and he is so blinded by his victimhood he expends his energies to FIGHT to continue his own sickness and that of his children.

Once people know nothing else but victimhood and a sense of entitlement how can they be able to imagine a different, better way?

It is VERY hard to expect a sick man to heal himself.

It is up to the leadership to lead them out of their sick way of half-living.

But, what are the Palestinian leaders doing for their people to break this sick cycle?

"Well, you have to look at what the Israelis are doing to prevent them from.."

BULLFROGS!

It's the PALESTINIAN (NON) LEADERSHIP who should be held to blame and to make the necessary changes. If they aren't doing the job, get better leaders!

But if the people try to appeal to the their (non) leaders to change, they are told "it's not up to us, it's the Israelis fault and we will make them pay with the blood of their zionist children!"

The Palestinian people need to revolt.

If there were a significant movement of responsible Palestinian moderate leaders who approached Israel or the US asking for help, I'd like to think they'd get all the help they need!

But the self-perpetuation of that sick victimhood would behoove the RESISTANCE to find the moderates, judge them and execute them.

So, the cycle is perpetuated.

It truly makes me feel ill.


FEH!

(My 1st time ever using this icon!)

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Logic:
You want me to tell you why it was ignored but still only talk about today and tomorrow?

Nah, maybe later. For now, please respond to the long post. Thanks.

[Logic]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
Nah, maybe later. For now, please respond to the long post. Thanks.

I try to not reply to rants. So if you'll post the specific questions you want me to answer and skip the rant I'll answer your questions.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Logic:
I try to not reply to rants. So if you'll post the specific questions you want me to answer and skip the rant I'll answer your questions.

Out of my personal respect for you I will calm down before addressing this later.

Thanks. Have a good day or eve.

[Logic]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
Out of my personal respect for you I will calm down before addressing this later.

Thanks. Have a good day or eve.

Thanks

[Splinter]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
NO THEY DON'T HAVE ANY SUCH RIGHT! SHAME ON YOU LOGIC!

If the PA is the recognized legal authority, then no, the resistance movement is actively working to undermine the authority of the Palestinian government. The resistance is subverting any hope for peace. The resistance is finding, judging and executing the REAL Palestinian patriots (those trying to facilitate peace, dammit. PEACE!!!!) and the resistance is not held accountable by ANYONE.

The Israelis don't have the same access, trust, intelligence network or ease of travel/communication in the Palestinan territories as the Palestinian AUTHORITIES. You very casually toss off any expectation that the responsibility, COULD, SHOULD AND MUST be that of the Palestinian AUTHORITIES.

That's what the word means! TAKING AUTHORITY FOR GOVERNING!!!

If the Israelis did for the Palestinian people what needed to be done there (rightfully the job of the palestinian leadership!), the Palestinians would have had a homeland, and been living in freedom and be self governing a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago.

You expect the IDF to identify and round up terrorists?

If the Palestinians gave the Israeli Army the AUTHORITY for governing Palestine, it would have been done well and to MOST everyone's satisfaction.

The Israelis helped train and equip the P.A. internal security force or police force or whatever its called. And it was later discovered the cops used their guns and etc. to help promote or commit terrorist acts.

What kind of Palestinian leadership allows THAT?

The Palestinians deserve a better set of leaders than they have had. The Israelis deserve a better neighboring government and partner for peace.

(Don't say it's the Israeli's fault! Take responsibility, dammit.)

Victimhood and the entitlement mentality CAN be learned and the Palestinian leaders seem to be teaching this to every succeeding generation.

A few years ago I heard someone make an unflattering comparison of the palestinian people (very much generalizing) and American inner-city blacks.

I didn't like the comparison for either group and I STILL don't like it.

But after reading a bit from the scores of documents and articles on this situation, I can understand why that unflattering comparison was made. There are generations upon generations of inner-city blacks who grow up on welfare and start families based on the unhealthy expectation of getting something for nothing. It saps the soul and kills the character in man and makes of him a new, loathesome creature.

He adopts a 'get-over' mentality. "Getting over on the man" means taking advantage of authority to get what one is not entitled, to lie or cheat to serve the goal of continued entitlement.

In that kind of lifestyle and with said mindset, using the "man's"
kind heartedness and generosity against him is a game that the 'playa' wins when he's able to perpetuate that sick mindset and lifestyle, but it's a game the "man" can never win.

But even worse, the 'playa' never wins either and he is so blinded by his victimhood he expends his energies to FIGHT to continue his own sickness and that of his children.

Once people know nothing else but victimhood and a sense of entitlement how can they be able to imagine a different, better way?

It is VERY hard to expect a sick man to heal himself.

It is up to the leadership to lead them out of their sick way of half-living.

But, what are the Palestinian leaders doing for their people to break this sick cycle?

"Well, you have to look at what the Israelis are doing to prevent them from.."

BULLFROGS!

It's the PALESTINIAN (NON) LEADERSHIP who should be held to blame and to make the necessary changes. If they aren't doing the job, get better leaders!

But if the people try to appeal to the their (non) leaders to change, they are told "it's not up to us, it's the Israelis fault and we will make them pay with the blood of their zionist children!"

The Palestinian people need to revolt.

If there were a significant movement of responsible Palestinian moderate leaders who approached Israel or the US asking for help, I'd like to think they'd get all the help they need!

But the self-perpetuation of that sick victimhood would behoove the RESISTANCE to find the moderates, judge them and execute them.

So, the cycle is perpetuated.

It truly makes me feel ill.


FEH!

(My 1st time ever using this icon!)

wow.

From Ebert

Logic your either lazy or you are at a loss for words... answer the damned post... its not that difficult. see the steps are: 1. usign what is called a "mouse" press the reply button above said message, 2. place and end quotation command at the end of every paragraph/sentence you wish to argue/adress, 3. after each seperation state your opinion on the matter in dispute by typing it out on whats commonly known as a keyboard, 4. Press the Submit reply again using the "mouse"

EDIT: sorry for the sarcasm its late and I was in a "making trouble mood"

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
NO THEY DON'T HAVE ANY SUCH RIGHT! SHAME ON YOU LOGIC!

If the PA is the recognized legal authority, then no, the resistance movement is actively working to undermine the authority of the Palestinian government. The resistance is subverting any hope for peace. The resistance is finding, judging and executing the REAL Palestinian patriots (those trying to facilitate peace, dammit. PEACE!!!!) and the resistance is not held accountable by ANYONE.

...

What a rant! But you do realize that the PA is made up of the secular resistance-group Fatah and numerous others that unified under the organization PLO, don't you?

And I hope you do realize that Israel helped found the mother-organization of Hamas in Gaza with the full purpose to undermine the PA's authority, don't you?

But even regardless of those points, there can't be peace until israeli armies and secret-agencies withdraw from Gaza, Westbank and Golan, and the settlers either accept to live in a palestinian state with East-Jerusalem as its capital or go back to Israel.

Taliesin

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
If you're going to question whether or not various Arab groups can legitimately call themselves Palestinian and make a claim on those lands, then I guess we'll have to ask all the European born Jews to undergo the same scrutiny.

What percentage of Israelis can actually claim to be descendants of the original inhabitants?

There is no army in the middle east that can even hope to threaten Israel. It's time to go back to the pre-war borders and move on from this tragic conflict.

Well, the real Jewish people were nomadic. There's evidence of them living everywhere from North Africa, through eastern europe, to parts of asia. If you going by ancestrial claims... it would be the 2nd or 3rd largest nation in the world, overtaking several current nations.

Note: The gypsies also inhabited much of the same area.

So the biological trail.. by definition must be rather vast, as people were left all over the place. That's why so many groups claim to be the real jewish people. You've got everyone from some African groups, to Asians, to Europians. All who claim (with some legitimacy).

This is not to be confused with different sects of judaism. This is purely ethnic. Biology rather than Theology.


Also note that many people, despite what they may think... are actually part Roman... due to the Roman Empire. It may be very small... but if you could trace far enough back, the majority of the world would have Roman blood. Reason being how vast the empire was. Rome had many soldiers, and as writings showed... they were very.. ahem... horney men. They had no problem with pollinating local flowers. These kids weren't normally considered to be Roman (most weren't even aknoweledged, as the father just moved on before he even knew).

Same with Greeks.


So odds are, if you looked at a "Palestinian" or "Israeli"... you'd see that they are actually part Roman or Greek. That's assuming there was some advanced DNA test that could trace heredity to a certian group so many generations ago.

But then again... we now know about mDNA. Perhaps there's something to be discovered. Scientists now believe that most people share a single ancestor (named Eve). It's part of the 'out of africa' theory. All who aren't of african decent seem to share the same DNA past maternally.... and people outside of africa consistantly have the same trait... meaning a common maternal ancestor.

http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence...e/feature.html

So say hello to our grandmother


BTW: the skull which is the basis for that model came from Israel.