[aberdeenwriter]

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200407/fallows

When George Meets John
Presidential debates always put more importance on projecting character than on being right. George W. Bush and John Kerry can both boast of never having lost a debate, though the two candidates rely on strikingly dissimilar sets of skills. A viewer's guide to this fall's version of "asymmetric warfare"

NPR's "Fresh Air" Audio
http://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml...ayDate=current

[CreepingDeth]

This should be interesting. Thursday at when?

[Saad]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200407/fallows

When George Meets John
Presidential debates always put more importance on projecting character than on being right. George W. Bush and John Kerry can both boast of never having lost a debate, though the two candidates rely on strikingly dissimilar sets of skills. A viewer's guide to this fall's version of "asymmetric warfare"

NPR's "Fresh Air" Audio
http://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml...ayDate=current

Just listened to it on the air. Very interesting. I was really amused by Kerry. Like they said, not senatorial at all, more a prosecutor than anything else.

I wonder what happened to Bush's speech pattern?

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by Saad:
Just listened to it on the air. Very interesting. I was really amused by Kerry. Like they said, not senatorial at all, more a prosecutor than anything else.

I wonder what happened to Bush's speech pattern?

What speech pattern?

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
This should be interesting. Thursday at when?

I believe 6:00pm PST.

[Demonhood]

Newsweek has an article (with some bullet points/charts/etc..) on the upcoming debates as well.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
What speech pattern?

In the audio link you'll hear a clip from the Texas Gubernatorial campign of 1993 (or was it 94?)G. W. Bush was debating Gov. Ann Richards and was smooth.

Nowadays he has a more halting manner.

Methinks it has much to do, as they said in the clip, of GWB being more comfortable in Texas and that can account for quite a bit!

Edit: Others say it is a calculated mannerism. Which could be true as well.

[macvillage.net]

I'm curious what people thing of this:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...ion/index.html

Personally : all the way. I think it's very telling.

[ebuddy]

The debates will be summed up with one phrase uttered by Bush after Kerry goes into a long blather of rhetoric regarding how to handle our future in Iraq. Bush will look at Kerry and say; "Is that your final answer?"

[Cody Dawg]

You're right, ebuddy.

The race is lost. Bush has won. Even hardliners are saying that it's over.

Kerry is probably a nice guy, but people would rather be safe than sorry. Kerry is an unknown factor and right now people would rather deal with a familiar leader than shake things up.

How ya doing, ebuddy?

Another quality thread from aberdeenwriter!

[macvillage.net]

There never really was a race.

Bush secured the presidency over a year ago. There's no possible way he could loose it.

As I said earlier: he could do something dastardly on the witehouse lawn in front of her mother... and still win.

Troop deployment is to high for a new president. It just can't happen.

[zachs]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
The debates will be summed up with one phrase uttered by Bush after Kerry goes into a long blather of rhetoric regarding how to handle our future in Iraq. Bush will look at Kerry and say; "Is that your final answer?"

And he'll turn to Bush and say, "Only if that's your final excuse."

[Logic]

Originally posted by zachs:
And he'll turn to Bush and say, "Only if that's your final excuse."

[E's Lil Theorem]

I don't think they're allowed to talk to each other, which is why these "debates" are more like glorified campaign speeches.

[icruise]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
You're right, ebuddy.

The race is lost. Bush has won. Even hardliners are saying that it's over.

Well, that's what the Republicans would like us to believe, right? But don't count Kerry out, especially before the debates.

How ya doing, ebuddy?

Another quality thread from aberdeenwriter!

You've got a regular mutual-admiration society going on here, don't you?

As for the debates themselves, they are largely controlled environments, which sort of defeats the purpose, but there's enough freedom to allow for the unexpected.

The thing that annoyed me the most about the previous election was that the press went into the debates saying how Bush would be lucky not to drool on himself, and when he didn't, they declared him the winner. Gore did quite well (although admittedly not as well as he should have) and in my opinion was considerably better than Bush in most respects, but because people had high expectations for him and low expectations for Bush, Bush's performance seemed impressive.

I don't think he's quite as dumb as he lets on (although I also doubt that it's all an act). I think he likes to cultivate the "simple country president" image for occasions just like this. I'm just afraid that Kerry will do great, show a masterful command of the issues, etc but people will just say "well we expected him to do well, but Bush exceeded our expectations! He did great!"

[PacHead]

Who made up those idiotic rules, they're supposed to follow ?


Fox has already said, they will not be following one of the rules.

The rule where you are not allowed to cut to the other person, while one is debating. Now that is a stupid rule, and good for them for breaking it.

Watching the reaction of a person, while the other person is speaking is very important indeed. Who made up these retarded, censorship rules ?

[icruise]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Who made up these retarded, censorship rules ?

Did you read the article (and the news coverage about this)? Bush's camp is the one with all of the stipulations.

[itai195]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Watching the reaction of a person, while the other person is speaking is very important indeed.

Seriously, as repeatedly demonstrated by David Letterman's George Bush clips...

[Logic]

btw, do you know if the debate will be streamed somewhere?

Seems like they won't show it here on Iceland for some reason

[zachs]

Originally posted by Logic:
btw, do you know if the debate will be streamed somewhere?

Seems like they won't show it here on Iceland for some reason

www.cspan.org

I think everyone should watch it on CSPAN, and CNN ('Certainly Not News'), Faux, or any of the networks with commentators talking over the whole thing.

[MindFad]

Originally posted by Logic:
btw, do you know if the debate will be streamed somewhere?

Seems like they won't show it here on Iceland for some reason

C-SPAN will probably stream it. If not, it should be up immediately after finishing.

It should be noted that this debate may turn out pretty lame since they aren't allowed to address each other.

[zachs]

Originally posted by MindFad:
C-SPAN will probably stream it. If not, it should be up immediately after finishing.

It should be noted that this debate may turn out pretty lame since they aren't allowed to address each other.

Hopefully they just say 'Screw the rules,' like the networks are doing, and have a real man-to-man debate. 'Course then Bush will whine and cry and not show up for the next two debates.

[ebuddy]

You've got to be kidding Zachs.

To all those who hate love, comradery, and friends-in-ideals...I'm doing quite well thank you Cody Dawg.

Kerry will ask Bush what Kerry's excuse is for flip-flopping? Interesting and unique approach to be sure, but I should think his campaign advisors direct him to say anything else. Kerry will be taken to task, folks will find out that his platform rests and relies wholly upon the successes of Bush's administration. His outlook on the future is basically the Bush administration's blueprint for actions in Iraq. You'll be left wondering why Bush shouldn't just continue on with Bush's plan of success. It'll be cracking me up to be sure.

Domestic policy? nada. Environment? no substance. Experience and accomplishments? zilch there too. My toes are beginning to curl with excitement at the anticipation of tomorrow night baby!

[itai195]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
Domestic policy? nada. Environment? no substance. Experience and accomplishments? zilch there too.

George W. Bush, 2000 Republican candidate for President?

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Demonhood:
Newsweek has an article (with some bullet points/charts/etc..) on the upcoming debates as well.

Presidential advisor, Karl Rove, uses a Mac!

From the Newsweek article:

"Rove, in the role of CEO, sits atop the sales pyramid in his second-floor office at the White House, plugging his laptop into an Apple monitor when he isn't on the road."

[MindFad]

Even slimeball douches can use Macs.





(Quick, someone post the Kerry pic of him in front of his TiBook.)

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
You're right, ebuddy.

The race is lost. Bush has won. Even hardliners are saying that it's over.

Kerry is probably a nice guy, but people would rather be safe than sorry. Kerry is an unknown factor and right now people would rather deal with a familiar leader than shake things up.

How ya doing, ebuddy?

Another quality thread from aberdeenwriter!

THANKS CODY DAWG!

You ALWAYS make my day!

[Atomic Rooster]

I just read somewhere today that these debates won't really matter too much.

The partisans watching have already made up their minds. They will only hear what they want to hear.

1 in 5 it may or may not effect. Of those, many have not even decided whether they even want to vote or not.

It won't effect anyone here, I'm sure.

Most will look for the otherside to screw up so they can laugh and post about it somewhere.

[Logic]

Originally posted by zachs:
www.cspan.org

I think everyone should watch it on CSPAN, and CNN ('Certainly Not News'), Faux, or any of the networks with commentators talking over the whole thing.

Thanks

[Secret__Police]

Originally posted by E's Lil Theorem:
I don't think they're allowed to talk to each other, which is why these "debates" are more like glorified campaign speeches.

The real debates died in 84 when the League of Women Voters lost control of the Debates.
We will have the great pleasure of enduring 90 minutes of position speeches.

"Under the ridiculous 32-page contract that reads like the rules for the Miss America Pageant, there will be no candidate-to-candidate questions, no rebuttal to your opponent's points, no cross questions or cross answers, no rebuttals, no follow-up questions -- that's not a debate, that's a news conference."

[andi*pandi]

in the interests of not causing thread clutter, I present you with:

____________
~~~~~~~~~~

The Official 2004 Presidential Debate Drinking Game
By David Martin. David Martin lives in Ottawa, Canada

Published September 29, 2004

Let's face it. The presidential debates are a nuisance. But for whatever reason, most television networks feel obliged to carry them.So stop your whining and make the best of a bad situation with the Official 2004 Presidential Debate Drinking Game. All you have to do is line up your favorite beverage and pick a candidate. Then let the game begin:

- Every time President Bush says the word "safer," take a drink. If he uses the word "democracy" in the same sentence, make it a double.

- For every John Kerry reference to the UN, have a drink.

- If Bush uses the phrase "compassionate conservative," you must chug your entire beverage.

- Take one drink for every three times Kerry points with his left hand.

- Any previously recorded Bushism, like "misunderestimate" or "subliminable," used by the president during the debate requires one drink.

- If Kerry exceeds the time limit for any response, take a drink.

- Back-to-back offenses require a double shot and a NoDoz.

- A reference by your candidate to any of the following requires one drink:

1) Florida
2) North Korea
3) Axis of evil
4) Saddam Hussein
5) The American people

- And for an exciting twist on the game, anytime anybody mentions the word "Vietnam," everybody has to take a drink.

In this game, everyone's a winner. At worst, you'll reach the end of the debate experiencing a warm, pleasant buzz. But if you're really lucky, you'll pass out by 10 o'clock and won't have to listen to the closing statements.

Cheers!

[chris v]

Originally posted by andi*pandi:
in the interests of not causing thread clutter, I present you with:

____________
~~~~~~~~~~

The Official 2004 Presidential Debate Drinking Game
By David Martin. David Martin lives in Ottawa, Canada

Published September 29, 2004

Let's face it. The presidential debates are a nuisance. But for whatever reason, most television networks feel obliged to carry them.So stop your whining and make the best of a bad situation with the Official 2004 Presidential Debate Drinking Game. All you have to do is line up your favorite beverage and pick a candidate. Then let the game begin:

- Every time President Bush says the word "safer," take a drink. If he uses the word "democracy" in the same sentence, make it a double.

- For every John Kerry reference to the UN, have a drink.

- If Bush uses the phrase "compassionate conservative," you must chug your entire beverage.

- Take one drink for every three times Kerry points with his left hand.

- Any previously recorded Bushism, like "misunderestimate" or "subliminable," used by the president during the debate requires one drink.

- If Kerry exceeds the time limit for any response, take a drink.

- Back-to-back offenses require a double shot and a NoDoz.

- A reference by your candidate to any of the following requires one drink:

1) Florida
2) North Korea
3) Axis of evil
4) Saddam Hussein
5) The American people

- And for an exciting twist on the game, anytime anybody mentions the word "Vietnam," everybody has to take a drink.

In this game, everyone's a winner. At worst, you'll reach the end of the debate experiencing a warm, pleasant buzz. But if you're really lucky, you'll pass out by 10 o'clock and won't have to listen to the closing statements.

Cheers!

That's it-- I'm goin' off the wagon tonight! Woohoo!

[andi*pandi]

American Politics: Driving People to Drink since 1776.

Or as a friend once said when I told her she was driving me to drink...

"But you have your own car!"

[chris v]

"That woman drove me to drink, and I never got to properly thank her." -- WC Fields

[Cody Dawg]

Kudos and to President Bush!

He's here in our area (Stuart/Jupiter Florida) handing out water and food supplies to people hit hard by the hurricane...and he is going to be at the presidential debates tonight.

People (Republicans AND Democrats) in this area are paying close attention. There was an interview with some people that aired and they were asked what they thought of President Bush coming down here to hand out supplies and view the damage and quite a few of them commented that they were impressed...and wondered why John Kerry had not done the same.

Wonder where John Kerry is today? Practicing? Funny thing is, President Bush is obviously not holed up someplace practicing.

Good luck, G.W. Bush! Florida loves you!

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Wonder where John Kerry is today? Practicing? Funny thing is, President Bush is obviously not holed up someplace practicing.

He's probably busy rubbing TanTowels all over himself.



Maury

[chris v]

Yo, Cody, this thread is now about drinking. Do keep up!

[andi*pandi]

It's Bush's job to tour disaster areas, so don't go thinking he's being magnanimous, he's doing his job. I suppose Kerry could also tour FL, but it would be seen as campaigning. I'm sure Kerry has the utmost sympathy for the people of Florida, and truly all the American People* affected by the weather.

*DRINK!

[chris v]

Originally posted by andi*pandi:
It's Bush's job to tour disaster areas, so don't go thinking he's being magnanimous, he's doing his job. I suppose Kerry could also tour FL, but it would be seen as campaigning. I'm sure Kerry has the utmost sympathy for the people of Florida, and truly all the American People* affected by the weather.

*DRINK!

Especially in light of the events of 9/11.

*clink*

[Cody Dawg]

Drinking? DRINKING? Drinking!

[itai195]

An amusing anecdote I read today that reminded me of something I had forgotten from the 2000 debates, and is relevant to the 2004 debates:

There are the big whoppers, of course, like the administration's off-and-on efforts to link Saddam Hussein to the attacks of Sept. 11. But then there are the questionable tales of lesser consequence, like the one Bush tells nearly every day about his first visit to ground zero on Sept. 14, 2001. Bush says the experience remains "so vivid" in his memory that it "might as well have happened yesterday." But each time Bush repeats his ground zero story, the tale gets a little better in the retelling -- an evolution that the reporters who cover Bush regularly don't bother to chronicle. It's the kind of evolving story that would have landed Al Gore in a heap of trouble four years ago.

When Bush first started telling the ground zero story, in February of this year, he'd say he remembered walking through the ruins and seeing "a guy pointing at me and saying, 'Don't let me down.'" By March, Bush had the "guy" saying, "'Mr. President, never let me down."

One morning in May, Bush said: "I clearly remember a guy in a hard hat" who said, "'Don't let me down.'" Later that same day, Bush said: "I'll never forget the firefighter that pointed at me and said, 'Don't let me down.'" By June, the "guy" had become a whole group of "tired firefighters and police and rescue workers" who said, "'Don't let us down.'" By July, the "guy" was just a guy again, but Bush couldn't remember which kind: "I remember a fireman or a policeman, I can't remember which one, looking me in the eyes and saying, 'Do not let me down.'"

At about the same time, the guy -- whoever he was -- started getting physical. No longer did he merely point at the passing president; he "grabbed me by the arm," Bush said. One morning in July, Bush said the grabber "was a policeman or a fireman, I don't know which one, but he had tears in his eyes." By that afternoon, the guy had become a "firefighter" again, with "bloodshot eyes and sweat pouring."

And it kept getting better. In early August, Bush said: "I don't know if he was a firefighter or a policeman -- I do know that he was looking through the rubble for one of his buddies." A week after that, Bush said the guy had been searching for "a loved one." One day later, he had been searching for "somebody that he worked with." And the day after that, he was searching for a "buddy" again, but this time he said: "Mr. President, do not let me down." Two weeks later, Bush had him saying, "You don't let me down."

And on Sept. 14, 2004 -- the third anniversary of the president's visit to ground zero -- Bush offered up his most vivid memory yet. "I remember a guy grabbed me the arm, a big old burly firefighter, I guess he was a firefighter, he said: 'Do not let me down.'"

It was, the president said, "a day I'll never forget."

Bush's fact-challenged ways aren't contained to trivial anecdotes like the ground zero story, of course. Although -- if Bush got as good as he gave Gore, that might be enough to convince the media of his dishonesty. After the first debate in 2000, the Bush campaign and the press hammered Gore for two misstatements. Gore said that he had toured flood- and fire-ravaged Texas with FEMA director James Lee Witt when, in fact, he had toured flood- and fire-ravaged Texas with a FEMA official, and he had toured other disaster locations with Witt. And Gore said that, because of insufficient education funding, a Florida schoolgirl didn't have a place to sit in her science class when, in fact, she had been seatless but received a desk of her own a few weeks before the debate. For this, Gore was slammed in the press, including a "Liar! Liar!" headline emblazoned across the front of the New York Post.

The day after the debate, Bush told Fox News that Gore had a "record, you know, of sometimes exaggerating to make a point." Karen Hughes said Gore's debate performance was part of a "disturbing pattern of the vice president simply making things up."

How "disturbed" would Hughes have been if Gore had told a whopper about something of substance -- say, as Bush did this week. At a campaign rally in Missouri Monday, Bush claimed that, because of U.S. military efforts in Afghanistan, the "Taliban no longer is in existence." The president's pronouncement must have come as news to the troops currently fighting Taliban and al-Qaida members in Afghanistan, and it's directly contradicted by statements made just last week by Republican members of Congress and a Defense Department official familiar with operations in Afghanistan.

[Judge_Fire]

Originally posted by Logic:
btw, do you know if the debate will be streamed somewhere?

Seems like they won't show it here on Iceland for some reason

Well, its on Finnish TV, so if you can pick up YLE24 from a satellite (not sure about that) you might get it. Also, there might be a stream at http://www.yle.fi/yle24/usa.php later.

J

[Logic]

Originally posted by Judge_Fire:
Well, its on Finnish TV, so if you can pick up YLE24 from a satellite (not sure about that) you might get it. Also, there might be a stream at http://www.yle.fi/yle24/usa.php later.

J

Thanks, but it seems like they will show it here(or rather show the CNN broadcast).

[zachs]

Question, guys: Will Bush's remarks be simulcast in English?

[Logic]

First duck of the debate goes to Bush.

[xi_hyperon]

Kerry is not holding back, and Bush looks perturbed.

[d4nth3m4n]

"his campaign has a word for that"

[xi_hyperon]

He looks real perturbed.

[Logic]

Kerry starts well IMO.

[d4nth3m4n]

"i decided to go there myself" [United Nations]