[moki]

Modern Japan is an interesting place, but many people in the West who are infatuated with various parts of the Japanese culture have little idea what Japan is really like, even after having spent some time there.

Sumo wrestling, bonsai, origami, kimonos, geisha, samurai -- yes, these are all wonderful facets of the Japanese culture, but to really get an idea of what Japan is all about today, it takes looking past these romanticized notions and traditions.

I recently read a book on Japan entitled "Dogs and Demons: Tales from the Dark Side of Modern Japan" that I found both disillusioning and fascinating. It was written by a westerner who grew up in Japan, and indeed, was the first non-Japanese person to ever win a prestigious literary award for writing in Japanese.

Much of the book was counter to what I was inclined to want to believe about Japan, because I have been long fascinated with various aspects of the Japanese culture. It was thus with some skepticism and trepidation that I found myself turning the pages of this book, uncovering such strange dichotomies such as the Japanese love of nature, and the fact that every river in Japan has been dammed and concrete-lined.

It goes on to touch on ever facet of modern day life in Japan, from the banking systems that have worked in conjunction with the government to create almost systemic loan problems, to the stock market where a toad was giving financial advice. Massive construction industries that build things like roads that go nowhere, simply to spend their allocated money, keep people employed, and make money for the construction cartels. A sunshine policy that was meant to ensure buildings allowed sunshine to fall on the cities, but has resulted in urban sprawl and subterranean buildings and apartment complexes.

Strange, odd, and incomprehensible to many people with a romanticized outside view of Japan, but nevertheless true.

The book was written out of love for Japan -- tough love, exposing the many levels of unfortunate circumstances in Japan that have caused it to, in the authors own words, come to a cultural crisis that mirrors the current economic crisis.

For anyone who has any interest in Japan at all, I highly, highly recommend this book.

English: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

Japanese: http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/...395058-2231512

[Millennium]

All countries have their good points, and their bad points. YOu've hit the nail right on the head that far too many people over-romanticize Japanese life, particularly Japanese education.

Nevertheless, just because there is bad doesn't mean there is no good. This is something which needs to be kept in mind. Your post is written in such a manner that you appear to have forgotten this (you may not have actually forgotten -I don't claim to know for certain- but you look like you have).

At least by US standards, Japanese culture appears to be truly messed up. I think this is what probably causes it to be so alluring. Americans in particular have always been drawn to those things they see as "odd" or "eccentric", and any culture where you can buy used panties at a street-corner vending machine certainly qualifies for that.

[theolein]

Stop the press! Andrew Welch has discovered that the Japanese, too, are human being with all their failings.

Man, you truly surprise me. You claim to have travelled extensively and yet you claim to be shocked when you find that nation X is in fact not paradise. I would love to read an encounter of your travels, truly I would.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Millennium:
All countries have their good points, and their bad points. YOu've hit the nail right on the head that far too many people over-romanticize Japanese life, particularly Japanese education.

Really?

I thought it was universally understood that the Japanese education system is, right down to the brass uniform buttons, functionally equivalent to the Prussian education system of ca. 1870. I can't see how anyone would romanticize canings and systematic psychological pressure.

Do Americans really do this? (I've spent 8 years in Japan, so my perspective may be flawed.)

At least by US standards, Japanese culture appears to be truly messed up.

And vice versa.

I think this is what probably causes it to be so alluring. Americans in particular have always been drawn to those things they see as "odd" or "eccentric", and any culture where you can buy used panties at a street-corner vending machine certainly qualifies for that.

Agreed. But realize that there are PLENTY of characteristics in ANY culture that make them seem "odd" or "eccentric" to other cultures.

The Japanese may be crazy - and they are crazy - but they're not much more nuts than Americans or Germans.

And good for moki for finding that book - it seems like a necessary balance for those whose idea of Japan was basically what is epitomized in James Bond movies.

Yes, Japan is in fact a modern, industrialized country, and has made many of the same mistakes that nearly all other indutrial nations have made.

No surprises there, really.

I might be buying it anyway, though.

-s*

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I thought it was universally understood that the Japanese education system is, right down to the brass uniform buttons, functionally equivalent to the Prussian education system of ca. 1870. I can't see how anyone would romanticize canings and systematic psychological pressure.

At least in the US, there are many who hold up the Japanese educational system as a model for how we should reform our own. They don't say much about the canings, though.

Agreed. But realize that there are PLENTY of characteristics in ANY culture that make them seem "odd" or "eccentric" to other cultures.

Oh, certainly. But at least from the perspective of many Americans, Japan is about as crazy as one can comfortably discuss in public (and sometimes they cross that line by just a hair or three, which makes it even more tantalizing).

And yes, the typical stereotype of Americans as held by the Japanese is quite similar: fun to be around, but who'd want to actually be one? Examples of that can be found in such characters as Gundam Wing's Duo Maxwell, or Ai Yori Aoshi's Tina Foster. This actually gets a fair balance, given that Duo's being American is portrayed as generally positive, whereas Tina's heritage is portrayed generally negatively.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Millennium:
And yes, the typical stereotype of Americans as held by the Japanese is quite similar: fun to be around, but who'd want to actually be one? Examples of that can be found in such characters as Gundam Wing's Duo Maxwell, or Ai Yori Aoshi's Tina Foster. This actually gets a fair balance, given that Duo's being American is portrayed as generally positive, whereas Tina's heritage is portrayed generally negatively.

Though of course it's amusing to claim that Anime portrayal of foreigners is any more representative of popular Japanese attitudes than, say, portrayal of aliens in Enterprise is representative of Americans' attitudes towards foreigners.

-s*

[BlackGriffen]

One "word": FLCL.

BG

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
One "word": FLCL.

BG

one question: what does that mean?

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
one question: what does that mean?

It's the title of a short anime series. It's littered with inside jokes about anime, and general insanity.

It's funny and crazy if you're a big anime fan. It's just crazy otherwise.

BlackGriffen

[moki]

Originally posted by theolein:
Stop the press! Andrew Welch has discovered that the Japanese, too, are human being with all their failings.

Man, you truly surprise me. You claim to have travelled extensively and yet you claim to be shocked when you find that nation X is in fact not paradise. I would love to read an encounter of your travels, truly I would.

Perhaps before you make more incredibly ridiculous statements, you could read the book and understand that we're talking about some truly staggering and amazing systemic problems here.

Oh well, at least you didn't ignorantly brand me a Japanese-basher, so you're doing better than normal on your tolerance meter.

I mean seriously, you haven't read the book, and have no idea what it contains, you're merely taking a misguided shot at me for who knows what reason. Bully for you -- next time, move along, and spare me the unwarranted personal attacks.

That said, you might also consider (*gasp*) reading the book -- it's a great book, and you'll soon realize exactly how woefully misguided your characterization here was.

[thunderous_funker]

No offense, but I'm having a hard time recognizing a point to this thread.

Are you looking for corroborration of the author's observations regarding Japan's systemic problems?

Are you concerned that a large portion of the forum is laboring under gross misapprehensions concerning Japan's culture?

Merely sharing your own disillusionment over Japan?

At first read, it kinda sounds a bit nationalistic. Like you used to think Japan was super and that threatened you or something, but luckily you found a book that reaffirms your patriotism by taking Japan down a peg....

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
At first read, it kinda sounds a bit nationalistic. Like you used to think Japan was super and that threatened you or something, but luckily you found a book that reaffirms your patriotism by taking Japan down a peg....

hmmmmm. it looks that way to me, as well.

At any rate, we know moki is going to be busy, what with impeaching bush and all.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
At any rate, we know moki is going to be busy, what with impeaching bush and all.

Well, the website is up: http://www.impeachbush.org/

[moki]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
No offense, but I'm having a hard time recognizing a point to this thread.

Simply pointing out a good book that people with an international mindset might be interested in? Is there a problem with this?

At first read, it kinda sounds a bit nationalistic. Like you used to think Japan was super and that threatened you or something, but luckily you found a book that reaffirms your patriotism by taking Japan down a peg....

Oh for god's sake heh. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. It's clearly your interpretation, because you disagree with me on some policy issues.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, Dr. Freud. This was simply a book that I read recently, out of interest in Japan (after having traveled there several times, doing Origami for decades, etc.), and I found it fascinating.

[tie]

Originally posted by moki:
Simply pointing out a good book that people with an international mindset might be interested in? Is there a problem with this?

Well, except the only people who don't already know about it all are those watching Fox News. And if you watch Fox News, then you have your head in the sand and don't care. (On the other hand, some people are apparently getting their international news from anime shows, so what do I know?!)

I think it's wrong to continually point fingers at other countries, especially Japan and Europe, and then ignore comparable problems here in the US. (Yes, I'm just provoking you to try to hear more about your impeach Bush campaign. ) Corporate and farm subsidies, financial industry, irresponsible environmental policies -- all are here in the US. Japan's subsidies for construction are like our contracts for Halliburton. As an ineffective economic stimulus policy, giving out money to the politically connected, they're comparable to Bush's tax cuts for the rich. Their farm subsidies are just like ours, redistributing money as a reflection of an unbalanced electoral system. For environmental policy, Kyoto is in Japan as is the Earth Simulator, and Japanese car makers are far ahead of American ones in efficient engine technology. Our president censors EPA reports on global warming, wants to cut down our forests "to prevent forest fires," and wants to make compliance with environmental standards voluntary. The US is maybe a more open society, but then we don't hesitate to round up the Arabs.

Anyway, I recently read a nice, romanticizing book: "Musashi" by Eiji Yoshikawa.

[moki]

Originally posted by tie:
Well, except the only people who don't already know about it all are those watching Fox News. And if you watch Fox News, then you have your head in the sand and don't care.

hrm, that's really not true. I know quite a bit more about Japan than the average person does, and I was utterly blown away by many of the things in this book. That's why I mentioned it here.

I think it's wrong to continually point fingers at other countries, especially Japan and Europe, and then ignore comparable problems here in the US.

If you look around on the web boards here, the vast majority of it is pointed criticism of the US by people in other countries who ignore or give a pass to the problems in there own countries. As such, I find this statement more than a little bit ironic.

Some background: I picked up this book at a bookstore in Tokyo the last time I was there (March 2003) -- I love the way they wrap the books so no one else can see what you're reading, very classy. Anyway, I started reading it while I was in Tokyo, and many of the things in the book simply didn't jibe with what I'd understood about Japan.

I unfortunately didn't finish reading the book until recently, but I found it a very, very interesting book, and I thought I'd note it here. As with the book's author, I'm someone who is quite enthusiastic about Japan, so it was in no way an attempt to put Japan down at all. Rather, I was simply recommending a book that I thought was incredibly insightful and interesting, and others might have an interest in checking out as well.

Trust me, I'll never make that mistake again. Recommend a book, and no one pays attention to the book you recommend, but rather decides to bash you personally, or read into it ridiculous motivations and conspiracy theories. Sad, really.

Corporate and farm subsidies, financial industry, irresponsible environmental policies -- all are here in the US. Japan's subsidies for construction are like our contracts for Halliburton.

Ah, but no, they are not at all like that -- the construction industry, environmental issues, financial industry, all of these things are taking place on a very different level in Japan. I'd really suggest reading the book to you, I think you'll find it quite interesting.

If it were simply an analog, pointing out problems in Japan that occur similarly in the US, or in countries in Europe, then the book wouldn't be of particular note. That isn't what it is about at all. You're attempting to draw parallels between lines that are quite skewed at different angles.

Tell you what -- pick up a copy of the book, read it, and if you consider it something other than as I've represented here, I'll pay you for it.

The US is maybe a more open society, but then we don't hesitate to round up the Arabs.

I don't want to derail the topic here, but I have to note that you're being disingenuous here. The people rounded up were all in violation of various immigration laws.

The US is a very open society, extremely open compared to Japan. I really do hope that some of this exposure causes changes in Japan (given that we're finally seeing the emergence of a two party democratic system in Japan, it's encouraging), because I think Japan is a uniquely wonderful place and people.

[theolein]

Originally posted by moki:
Perhaps before you make more incredibly ridiculous statements, you could read the book and understand that we're talking about some truly staggering and amazing systemic problems here.

Oh well, at least you didn't ignorantly brand me a Japanese-basher, so you're doing better than normal on your tolerance meter.

I mean seriously, you haven't read the book, and have no idea what it contains, you're merely taking a misguided shot at me for who knows what reason. Bully for you -- next time, move along, and spare me the unwarranted personal attacks.

That said, you might also consider (*gasp*) reading the book -- it's a great book, and you'll soon realize exactly how woefully misguided your characterization here was.

You're right there, actually. I haven't read the book.

You'll have to excuse me for jumping on you, yet once again. I'll explain why:

If you step back and take a look at your history of thread posting, you'll note that you do sometimes seem to post a string of similar posts in a short time. To you they may seem wildly dissimilar threads on topics of interest to you, on which you wish some sort of discussion, but obviously, to a good few of us, it seems as if they have a definite purpose of putting down other nations and pushing the US up.

Why do I (we) see things this way? Well, if it were one thread in a while, I (we) could find it easier to take the threads objectively. But you often seem to make a string of them in a short while (The collapsing French/German pension scheme, which got 5 topics in one week and the Toqueville series which got 2 topics in one day, IIRC).

After, quite a lot of prodding by me, you finally admitted that you opposed the "ideology" of France and Germany, you may remember. To your credit, you admitted it, which is something that Simey would never have done, but you never explained why you called it an ideology, or why you were so convinced that it was going to collapse. You posted links and quotes of Economist articles, and you certainly had a point about the bad state of financial affairs in both countries, but, and here's what made me wonder:

You didn't seem to have anything on Spain, the Ukraine, Poland or Italy. The Ukraine is a huge mess and Poland, while in good growth, has any number of problems related to it's huge agricultural sector and messy politics, and I won't start on Berlusconi's cronyism and abuse of the legal system or the huge dissatisfaction in Spain with the politicians who basically ignored the oil disaster of the Prestige until it was too late.

I the "about France" thread you really seemed to want to prove that France is somehow inhospitable and unfriendly (including the French girlfriend for good measure) until you finally came to an agreement that the countryside might be different from the city, and that in fact you had a better time there.

You get my point? I don't think that any country is without problems. Germany isn't, France isn't, Japan isn't and the US isn't. While you're of course entitled to your free opinion and bias if you like, it seems strange if you try to couch them in supposed factual articles and then overdo it by basically posting the same thing many times in a row.

Just as an exercise, if you feel that the US is being downtrodden by all the bad PR and that certain people on this board are on agenda to do so etc, why don't you start a thread stating exactly that and why you object to it?

[tie]

Originally posted by moki:
If you look around on the web boards here, the vast majority of it is pointed criticism of the US by people in other countries who ignore or give a pass to the problems in there own countries. As such, I find this statement more than a little bit ironic.

I don't really agree. The thing is that the problems in their own countries rarely have enough traction here to generate interesting discussion. (Plus Americans like me shoot down anyone who starts a topic about problems in Japan -- we either don't know enough, or couldn't care less. ) Also, US foreign policy, environmental and trade policies, for example, certainly have global consequences. Anyway, OT.

Ah, but no, they are not at all like that -- the construction industry, environmental issues, financial industry, all of these things are taking place on a very different level in Japan. I'd really suggest reading the book to you, I think you'll find it quite interesting.

If it were simply an analog, pointing out problems in Japan that occur similarly in the US, or in countries in Europe, then the book wouldn't be of particular note. That isn't what it is about at all. You're attempting to draw parallels between lines that are quite skewed at different angles.

You're probably right, but I don't know that all the lines are entirely skewed. Japan doesn't have the same enormous defense industry as the US, so the construction industry partly fills the gap. As to the financial industry, ours is certainly full of toads. Are the problems as systemic and (apparently) long-term as in Japan? Possibly not -- hopefully our greater openness means they can be more easily solved.

The US is a very open society, extremely open compared to Japan.

[tie]

Random link: http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/f...6-21/kerr3.htm

......I certainly don't think that the Japanese have lost their inherent design sense. You can see it shining through even in an essentially juvenile medium like manga comics, which are admired world-wide for their inventive designs. However, "inherent design sense," like "intelligence," or "talent," has two aspects: nature and nurture. I won't begin to speculate on what in the Japanese brain, or language, or society, gives people the ability to create consistently such astonishingly daring designs. Whatever it is, that ability is still there. That's the "nature" side. That's what you have if you're born a Japanese in Japan.

But then there's the "nurture" side, i.e., your environment. Design in Japan was always one and the same with the environment�the hills, rocks, rivers, streams, and latticed and gardened houses that made up the landscape. Today, the design sense is still inspired by the environment, and what is that? Concreted rivers, flattened valleys, plastic houses, universal fluorescent lights, pachinko parlors, tenement cities, ugly hotels, sterile resorts. This is the starting point for design, and so the most inspired talents in the world end up where they began, with more concreted rivers, flattened valleys, and plastic houses. It's a vicious cycle. It's a profound cultural problem, and no change of Prime Ministers is going to suddenly cure it.

I think he's overgeneralizing.

[moki]

Originally posted by tie:
Random link: http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/f...6-21/kerr3.htm

I think he's overgeneralizing.

I think he cares deeply about Japan, and is one of the few people who is willing to really say that problems exist at all, let alone engage in discussion about them.

[moki]

Originally posted by theolein:
You're right there, actually. I haven't read the book.

Then kindly read the book before you make ridiculously wrong statements about it, hmmm?

You'll have to excuse me for jumping on you, yet once again. I'll explain why:

There's no need to explain. You've developed an attitude towards me, and a double-standard. You're welcome to continue over-reacting, reading into what I'm saying, making up my mind for me, etc.

Just be aware that you're doing it, you're being unfair, and in most cases, you're utterly wrong.

[Sven G]

... Manga comics "juvenile"?!? (See a quotation in a post above.)

If there's something really erotic left over in this age, it's (IMHO) Anime/Manga/Hentai: kudos to the Japanese for this! (Also kudos to some fine European - see Milo Manara (rather "soft", anyway), for example - and American artists, of course.)

"Usual" porn seems to have lost all its erotic art charge, nowadays: seems to be only for money, over and over again...