[alphasubzero949]

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...threadid=52393

We have a week before we hear rumors of the GM. Just adding some fuel to the fire.

[tkmd]

no offense but with all this crap about apple sueing websites and mac forums clamping down on what can be said about xyz release -all this has kinda taken the excitment outta 10.4 for me. I remember the release 10.1- the talk and smack ("its so secret the results had to be encrypted") made the release bigger than it really should have been...

but it used to be fun. Now well, its just another release.

[Detrius]

With Microsoft continually pushing back the release date of Longhorn, as well as removing features, Apple releasing Tiger a couple of months early, and WITH all of the promised features is more mud in MS's face. Also, if they announce a release date, that gives MS a chance to one-up their announcement, by announcing something else about Longhorn. If instead, Apple simply releases Tiger, then there's nothing that MS can announce that looks as good as an actual release... especially if the release is early.

Personally, I think Apple is taking full advantage of the fact that they gave themselves a LOT of leeway with the release date. I would not be surprised to see Tiger released in April--without an announcement of a release date.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by Detrius:
Apple releasing Tiger a couple of months early

A couple of months early? Apple has always said 1H2005. It is currently 1H2005.

[Tyre MacAdmin]

I'm not even going to get my hopes up... Release dates are but a game to be played.... WITH YOUR HEAD!!!

[RevEvs]

I've though since the start that Apple have given themselves a lot of leeway, so that they can get Tiger out on time, even if major things go wrong

[Moose]

Originally posted by Detrius:
With Microsoft continually pushing back the release date of Longhorn, as well as removing features, Apple releasing Tiger a couple of months early, and WITH all of the promised features is more mud in MS's face.

What Microsoft's doing with Longhorn (removing features and slipping release dates) is exactly what Apple did six years ago with Mac OS X.

How soon we forget.

[chris v]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
A couple of months early? Apple has always said 1H2005. It is currently 1H2005.

In Apple-speak, that means June 30, 11:59 PM. One retail box is shipped to a guy in Peoria, and everybody else gets "the mail."

[JLL]

Originally posted by Moose:
What Microsoft's doing with Longhorn (removing features and slipping release dates) is exactly what Apple did six years ago with Mac OS X.

How soon we forget.

Something called Carbon got in the way

[Turias]

Originally posted by Moose:
What Microsoft's doing with Longhorn (removing features and slipping release dates) is exactly what Apple did six years ago with Mac OS X.

How soon we forget.

I spent all day yesterday trying to diagnose the problems two of our customers are having with our software. Both ended up being really strange Microsoft bugs. So, I'm all for a little Microsoft bashing, today.

[mattyd]

Whoo-hoo!

420!

[dillerX]

Originally posted by mattyd:
Whoo-hoo!

420!

Just what I thought. haha.

[ihealth]

Given 8a420, I'd say we'll be safe within a week

[Deimos]

Quite looking forward to Tiger, even though Panther has been great and I could easily stay on it for another year, and beyond.

What I'll do, though, is install it no an external drive and see if there's any gotchas, then stick it on my main machine.

[sieb]

I'm thinking WWDC05 at the latest. Seems to be a decent venue to release it to and showcase all its new bells and whistles (now that they all work). Then again, not much will have changed since the last WWDC. If they release Tiger early, what are they going to talk about at WWDC? hehe

[larkost]

sieb: The only part of WWDC that would be affected by an early release would be the keynote. Aside from that 2-3 hour event, the rest of the week long conference is all about getting people familiar with the details of system structures.

There are the overview level meetings that are longer versions of they keynote demos, but most of the sessions get very technical. I sat in on a session about low-level USB and FireWire driver details. I didn't understand about a third of it (I don't write drivers for a living), and I consider myself to be very intelligent in this area.

Even if developers have had a few months to play with the new tools, there would still be a lot of ground to cover... it is not all dog-and-pony-show level...

PS... for anyone who is going and is a juggler: take your stuff, there is usually a group that meets to juggle and talk between sessions.

[Weyland-Yutani]

I have never been less excited over a major Mac OS X update. Mac OS X is just getting more and more ugly, less consistant and more like Windows.

It will never become like Windows but it is going in the wrong direction. Mac OS X doesn't need 150 new features in every major update any longer. It needs the already implemented features to become better.

Graphics drivers and Java really need to become faster - these are both things Apple pretty much makes internally. All sorts of simplistic errors that have persisted throughout the history of Mac OS X need to be ironed out.

I probably have to wait for 10.5 for 150 bugs fixed

[IamBob]

Spark it!

[analogika]

Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
I have never been less excited over a major Mac OS X update. Mac OS X is just getting more and more ugly, less consistant and more like Windows.

[Angus_D]

You may laugh, but Apple now has 5 user interface themes.

[analogika]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
You may laugh, but Apple now has 5 user interface themes.

This may be true, but *functionally*, the interface has been so streamlined, polished, and honed into consistency that any comparison with Windows is just beyond laughable.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by analogika:
This may be true, but *functionally*, the interface has been so streamlined, polished, and honed into consistency that any comparison with Windows is just beyond laughable.

Not really. I don't think he was saying it's as bad as Windows by any stretch, but it is moving in that direction.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
Not really. I don't think he was saying it's as bad as Windows by any stretch, but it is moving in that direction.

Yes! That is exactly what I am saying.

I'll eat my hat if Mac OS X ever becomes anything like Windows but looking at Mac OS X today and where it is headed, it does give me a feeling the Apple designers don't really know what to do with the interface. Much like the Longhorn designers.

The inconsistancy of Mac OS X makes me tired. Angus_D is right on the money: Mac OS X has 5 different looks going on and not a lot of consistancy. Brushed metal here, Aqua here, Pro-look here.. bleh.

It's like they're just wildly experimenting with interface ideas to see how people like them!

just my �0.02

[leperkuhn]

Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
Yes! That is exactly what I am saying.

I'll eat my hat if Mac OS X ever becomes anything like Windows but looking at Mac OS X today and where it is headed, it does give me a feeling the Apple designers don't really know what to do with the interface. Much like the Longhorn designers.

The inconsistancy of Mac OS X makes me tired. Angus_D is right on the money: Mac OS X has 5 different looks going on and not a lot of consistancy. Brushed metal here, Aqua here, Pro-look here.. bleh.

It's like they're just wildly experimenting with interface ideas to see how people like them!

just my �0.02

I'd say aqua in 10.3 is better than it was in 10.2. The pinstripes were awful. The look of the buttons in mail isn't a huge deal, at least to me.

I'd also have to agree that we're headed to a much less consistent interface, and dashboard is a great example. But think about it - would dashboard be cool if everything used the same window? I would think it would be boring.

Does consistency in the UI across every application make sense? I'd say to a point. I like the brushed metal in iTunes, but not in iCal. (i'd also like it to be not so fat looking.. even on 1600x1200 it seems to be everywhere, but this is for a different thread..).

Regardless, a consistent UI is hard when you also want to make improvements. You can't make the change across the entire os, so you try it out on an application.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally posted by leperkuhn:
I'd say aqua in 10.3 is better than it was in 10.2. The pinstripes were awful. The look of the buttons in mail isn't a huge deal, at least to me.

I'd also have to agree that we're headed to a much less consistent interface, and dashboard is a great example. But think about it - would dashboard be cool if everything used the same window? I would think it would be boring.

Does consistency in the UI across every application make sense? I'd say to a point. I like the brushed metal in iTunes, but not in iCal. (i'd also like it to be not so fat looking.. even on 1600x1200 it seems to be everywhere, but this is for a different thread..).

Regardless, a consistent UI is hard when you also want to make improvements. You can't make the change across the entire os, so you try it out on an application.

The different interfaces have all become better with the Mac OS X updates. Aqua is better now than it was, so is brushed metal.

But that's not the issue.

The issue is that there are distinctly 5 different interface approaches Apple is making in its OS. In 10.0 they were 2. Things don't seem to be consolidating into a comprehensive and clear direction at Apple, quite the opposite.

That's the issue.

A consistent interface is not hard when you want to make improvements. Aqua is not an improvement over Brushed metal which is not an improvement over Pro-look.. they just look different and have slightly different features.. like being able to drag a Brushed-metal window by holding anywhere but if it is Aqua then you have to hold the title-bar. I'm not sure what you see as improvement here?

[leperkuhn]

Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
The different interfaces have all become better with the Mac OS X updates. Aqua is better now than it was, so is brushed metal.

But that's not the issue.

The issue is that there are distinctly 5 different interface approaches Apple is making in its OS. In 10.0 they were 2. Things don't seem to be consolidating into a comprehensive and clear direction at Apple, quite the opposite.

That's the issue.

A consistent interface is not hard when you want to make improvements. Aqua is not an improvement over Brushed metal which is not an improvement over Pro-look.. they just look different and have slightly different features.. like being able to drag a Brushed-metal window by holding anywhere but if it is Aqua then you have to hold the title-bar. I'm not sure what you see as improvement here?

I'm not advocating 5 different interfaces. If brushed metal disappeared I wouldn't mind at all. However in certain instances the different interface may have some benefit, dashboard being an example (and maybe the only one I can provide)

[Weyland-Yutani]

I hear what you're saying leperkuhn.

On topic: how come tiger is at 8A420 instead of say 8B34 or something like that. Has a Golden Master of any OS X major release been an *A***?

[checks the W-Y database]

10.0 - 4K78
10.1 - 5G64
10.2 - 6C115
10.3 - 7B85

10.4 - 8Axxx??

[Detrius]

Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
I hear what you're saying leperkuhn.

On topic: how come tiger is at 8A420 instead of say 8B34 or something like that. Has a Golden Master of any OS X major release been an *A***?

[checks the W-Y database]

10.0 - 4K78
10.1 - 5G64
10.2 - 6C115
10.3 - 7B85

10.4 - 8Axxx??

K>G>C>B>A Seems like Apple has been converging on A for a while.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally posted by Detrius:
K>G>C>B>A Seems like Apple has been converging on A for a while.

Heh yeah

Do you know why a build goes from A to B and so forth?

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
Do you know why a build goes from A to B and so forth?

Yes.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
Yes.

Um.. good

[arekkusu]

Originally posted by leperkuhn:
I'd say aqua in 10.3 is better than it was in 10.2.

UI is subjective, and everyone's entitled to their opinion, but how, exactly, are the tab chicklets in 10.3 better than 10.2?

I'd say Aqua is all around worse in 10.3:
* tab chicklets that make no sense and break old layouts (curved corners)
* menu bar bottom pixel too light
* menu dividers restored from OS 9, makes the menus longer and more cluttered
* transparent window title bars ditched (say what you want, this made it obvious which window was active.)
* The Aqua/Brushed Metal division further blurred by addition of metal buttons, Finders "curved highlight" buttons, sheet slot under Brushed Metal title bar, and general proliferation of huge space wasting metal borders everywhere.
* use of more "photo realistic" graphics like the unlock icon
* the curved highlight bisecting the chrome apple logo

There were a few changes I like:
* pinstripes toned back
* nested groupboxes get progressively darker
* circular sliders, disclosure triangle, search field added to standard cocoa kit

[nickm]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
Yes.

Care to clue us in?

[Maelman]

I wouldn't really consider pro as one of OSX's themes. It isn't really part of the OS, it is part of the application (ie. FCP, Motion, etc.)

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by nickm:
Care to clue us in?

Not sure if I can.

[gmsmith]

Any other ADC members notice the Readme file on the DVD image?

[Nexus5]

Originally posted by gmsmith:
Any other ADC members notice the Readme file on the DVD image?

What are you talking about? This?:

"Warning: Pre�release software is Apple confidential information. Your unauthorized distribution of pre�release software or disclosure of information relating to pre�release software (including the posting of screen shots) may subject you to both civil and criminal liability and result in immediate termination of your ADC Membership."



Nexus5.

[gmsmith]

No actually...I was specifically referring to the file called Welcome to Tiger.

Look at it...compare it to the last build, you will see what I mean

[cybergoober]

Originally posted by gmsmith:
No actually...I was specifically referring to the file called Welcome to Tiger.

Look at it...compare it to the last build, you will see what I mean

You mean the fact that there is actually content now?

As far as the build numbers go, don't the A, B, C etc represent "milestones" in the development process?

[Krypton]

The xBench site has some interesting scores on it as of late; G5s running 10.4 are considerably faster, whereas non G5s running 10.4 are slower...

Of course this is non scientific and gathered from just browsing the logs.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally posted by Krypton:
The xBench site has some interesting scores on it as of late; G5s running 10.4 are considerably faster, whereas non G5s running 10.4 are slower...

Of course this is non scientific and gathered from just browsing the logs.

What about iPods?

[Krypton]

Originally posted by ManOfSteal:
What about iPods?

Krypton thinks iPods running 10.4 is as absurd as people getting some enjoyment out of talking about it's pending release.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by cybergoober:
As far as the build numbers go, don't the A, B, C etc represent "milestones" in the development process?

So there was one milestone achieved in Panther development between the beginning and the GM (7B85), and there have been 19 from the GM up to 10.3.8?

[Geobunny]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
So there was one milestone achieved in Panther development between the beginning and the GM (7B85), and there have been 19 from the GM up to 10.3.8?

Don't tease! Just tell us, it's not like you're releasing details about the software, merely explaining the nomenclature of successive builds.

[Edit: Please? ]

[cybergoober]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
So there was one milestone achieved in Panther development between the beginning and the GM (7B85), and there have been 19 from the GM up to 10.3.8?

I don't know. That's why I posed my response in the form of a question rather than stating as fact... no need to get all uppity

[alphasubzero949]

According to AI, 8A425 has been seeded as a FC build.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=970

[ashtoash]

We'll have the GM any day now on ADC. My guess is this friday or monday.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by ashtoash:
We'll have the GM any day now on ADC. My guess is this friday or monday.

They sometimes go though about 3-6 FCs

[Detrius]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
So there was one milestone achieved in Panther development between the beginning and the GM (7B85), and there have been 19 from the GM up to 10.3.8?

As I recall from the panther development, the late A builds were stable but didn't have the features that Apple wanted. The early B builds were incredibly unstable, but had the feature set. My guess is that the letters don't specifically refer to milestones, but are rather just different versions. When you are making a relatively major change, you add to the letter. Usually, this breaks stuff. Breaking things id definitely not a milestone.

[Moose]

Originally posted by Detrius:
Breaking things id definitely not a milestone.

New to software development, are we?