[chabig]

Politicians are real people too and have real-people problems. The big difference you'll see between Republicans and Democrats is that Republicans usually resign when they get caught, while the Democrats circle the wagons and protect the perpetrator.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by chabig

Politicians are real people too and have real-people problems. The big difference you'll see between Republicans and Democrats is that Republicans usually resign when they get caught, while the Democrats circle the wagons and protect the perpetrator.

Lame generalization, and one that I don't think you could substantiate if you had to, but oh well...

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by chabig

The big difference you'll see between Republicans and Democrats is that Republicans usually resign when they get caught, while the Democrats circle the wagons and protect the perpetrator.

Good observation.

[besson3c]

I'm having second doubts about posting this thread... looks like it is destined for the same old knee-jerk reactionary defense and offense.

[itai195]

Err, for some reason I don't see the OP... anyone else?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by itai195

Err, for some reason I don't see the OP... anyone else?

It looks like the MacNN servers weren't running ntpd or invoking ntpdate periodically since their clock seems to have been off...

Here was my original post:

Susan B. Ralston.


I came to America at the very tail end of Clinton's time in office, so I really haven't lived through another administration, but damn... Is this amount of scandals, corruption, and resignations due to the former typical? It seems like there have been so many now... What gives?

- Libby
- Abermoff
- DeLay
- Ralston
- Foley
- Foley's buddy (can't remember his name)
- Rove was on the hot seat for a while

Related, although slightly off-topic somewhat similar circumstances:

- Michael Brown
- Harriet Myers


Have I forgotten anybody?

Paul Martin was ousted because of Liberal party scandals in Canada. How many more scandals will it take here before there is serious (bipartisan) talk about gutting the Republican party and starting anew, or something along these lines?

[chabig]

Originally Posted by itai195

Err, for some reason I don't see the OP... anyone else?

The original post follows this one...

[besson3c]

Susan B. Ralston.


I came to America at the very tail end of Clinton's time in office, so I really haven't lived through another administration, but damn... Is this amount of scandals, corruption, and resignations due to the former typical? It seems like there have been so many now... What gives?

- Libby
- Abermoff
- DeLay
- Ralston
- Foley
- Foley's buddy (can't remember his name)
- Rove was on the hot seat for a while

Related, although slightly off-topic somewhat similar circumstances:

- Michael Brown
- Harriet Myers


Have I forgotten anybody?

Paul Martin was ousted because of Liberal party scandals in Canada. How many more scandals will it take here before there is serious (bipartisan) talk about gutting the Republican party and starting anew, or something along these lines?

[besson3c]

bump just so that the latest message reflects the proper time

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by chabig

Politicians are real people too and have real-people problems. The big difference you'll see between Republicans and Democrats is that Republicans usually resign when they get caught, while the Democrats circle the wagons and protect the perpetrator.

So Republicans cut and run and Democrats stay the course?

[smacintush]

Besson3c, you need to do little research into all of the indictments and convictions of the people whom either were in Clinton's administration or were friends and associates of Clinton. You might be surprised at the comparison.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by smacintush

Besson3c, you need to do little research into all of the indictments and convictions of the people whom either were in Clinton's administration or were friends and associates of Clinton. You might be surprised at the comparison.

Just for a point of reference for me (not to sound combative), would you care to provide me with a list off of the top of your head?

[Spliffdaddy]

Secretary of State: Warren Christopher
Secretary of the Treasury: Lloyd Bentsen, Robert Rubin
Secretary of Defense: Les Aspin, William Perry
Secretary of Agriculture: Mike Espy
Secretary of Commerce: Ronald H. Brown, Mickey Kantor, William M. Daley
Secretary of Labor: Robert Reich
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development: Henry G. Cisneros
Secretary of Transportation: Federico F. Pena
Secretary of Energy: Hazel R. O'Leary, Frederico F. Pena
Secretary of Veterans' Affairs: Jesse Brown

Those are just from his first term

I'm still searching for more

Note that these people were in the Clinton administration - not merely Democrats in Congress and Senate

Can I count the ones that Clinton assassinated via plane crash? or suicides involving a firearm that wasn't found near the body?

To answer your question, statistically Dubya's cabinet resignations are fewer than that of 6 of the last 10 Presidencies. Slightly higher than Clinton's, but not enough to matter.

The average seems to be about 25-30

PS, I didn't know you weren't in the US your whole life. You know more than most Americans.

edited, I listed Ron Brown - Commerce Secretary -not sure he resigned before he died in a plane crash (with a .45 cal sized hole in his head). Since he was a fund raiser for Clinton, he was awarded a cabinet position.

wikipedia: On April 3, 1996, while on an official trade mission, the Air Force CT-43 (a modified Boeing 737) carrying Brown and 34 other people, including New York Times Frankfurt Bureau chief Nathaniel C. Nash, crashed in Croatia. While attempting an instrument approach to Cilipi airport, the airplane crashed into a mountainside killing everyone onboard. TSgt Shelly Kelly initially survived the crash only to die from her wounds hours later while being transported off the mountain. Speculations as to the circumstances surrounding the plane crash that caused Brown's death include many government cover-up and conspiracy theories, largely based on Brown having been under investigation by independent counsel for corruption and, apparently, having prepared to negotiate plea bargains implicating President Clinton at the time of the crash.

Conspiracy theories > Ron Brown

It is worth noting that Ron Brown was just one of four Clinton campaign fund raisers to die under questionable circumstances. The others were C. Victor Raiser II, Hershel Friday, and Ed Willey, a total of three plane crashes and one "Fosterization". Following Brown's demise, his personal attorney as well as a co-worker at the Department of Commerce, Barbara Wise also died under questionable circumstances. As in the case of yet another "suddenly dead" member of the Clinton administration, Vincent Foster , Ron Brown's office was ransacked for files by Commerce staff immediately after his death.

[besson3c]

Thanks for the list Spliffdaddy... could you kindly clarify just what the list is of though? Politicians who were forced to resign because of scandal? Politicians that were fired? Politicians that should have been fired?


Thanks for your compliment.

[Spliffdaddy]

Sometimes there is no clear reason. And even if there is speculation of scandal, it's often never proven.

It would take a lot of time to find all the resignations & dismissals, then research what (if any) reason was provided.

I'd guess most just step down in order to spend more time with their families.

No telling how many cabinet positions exist. Could be hundreds.

There is scandal in every presidency. You may have to physically research Dubya's cabinet positions to determine if there were more or fewer 'scandals' than is typical. I would guess it's about an average number - for 2-term presidents.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Sometimes there is no clear reason. And even if there is speculation of scandal, it's often never proven.

It would take a lot of time to find all the resignations & dismissals, then research what (if any) reason was provided.

I'd guess most just step down in order to spend more time with their families.

No telling how many cabinet positions exist. Could be hundreds.

There is scandal in every presidency. You may have to physically research Dubya's cabinet positions to determine if there were more or fewer 'scandals' than is typical. I would guess it's about an average number - for 2-term presidents.

I agree, this sounds sensible.

However, I was comparing the number of people that were forced to resign out of scandal and the like between this administration and the others.

Your conclusion might be right though, it just seems like there is a lot of scandal right now, but maybe US politics are just far more naturally scandalous than anything I'm used to.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I agree, this sounds sensible.

However, I was comparing the number of people that were forced to resign out of scandal and the like between this administration and the others.

Your conclusion might be right though, it just seems like there is a lot of scandal right now, but maybe US politics are just far more naturally scandalous than anything I'm used to.

I read a quote somewhere in regard to Tony Blair, something like ‘all politician’s careers end in failure’… and if you think about it, it’s true for the most part. Scandal or not, people have to look out for their own interests. Better to resign than get fired.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Sometimes there is no clear reason. And even if there is speculation of scandal, it's often never proven.

It would take a lot of time to find all the resignations & dismissals, then research what (if any) reason was provided.

I'd guess most just step down in order to spend more time with their families.

No telling how many cabinet positions exist. Could be hundreds.

There is scandal in every presidency. You may have to physically research Dubya's cabinet positions to determine if there were more or fewer 'scandals' than is typical. I would guess it's about an average number - for 2-term presidents.

[smacintush]

Ron Brown - was under investigation by independent counsel for corruption and, apparently, was prepared to negotiate plea bargains implicating President Clinton at the time of the crash.

Mike Espy - On August 27, 1997, Espy was indicted on charges of granting favors in exchange for thousands of dollars in gifts such as sports tickets, lodging, and airfare. Espy refused to plea bargain and on December 2, 1998 he was acquitted of all 30 criminal charges in the trial.

Henry Cisneros - In March 1995, U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno secured the appointment of an Independent Counsel, David Barrett to investigate allegations that Cisneros had lied to FBI investigators during background checks prior to being named Secretary of HUD.

Les Aspin - Through criminal negligence was responsible for the death
of Army Rangers in Somalia. Has never been held accountable
in public hearings.

Roger Altman (Deputy Secretary of the Treasury) - Lied to Congress during Whitewater hearings, lied to Congress about having lied to Congress, instructed Ellen Kulka and Jack Ryan at the RTC to block the Whitewater investigation by L. Jean Lewis. Roger Altman was forced to resign.

Margaret Williams (Chief of Staff to the First Lady) - Obstructed justice when she removed documents from the office of Vince Foster and lied to Congress about removing those documents.

Robert Reich - Lied to Congress when he wrote that there were no memos circulating in the Labor Department instructing staff to gather political material against the Contract with America. Such memos were later published. Under investigation by Congress.

-Number of individuals and businesses associated with the Clinton machine who have been convicted of or pleaded guilty to crimes: 47

- Number of these convictions during Clinton's presidency: 33

What is truly sad is that these types of scandals and convictions are becoming the norm regardless of party. Clinton did break records though.

- The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal malfeasance
- Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and associates
- Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal investigation
- Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to testify
- Most number of witnesses to die suddenly
- First president sued for sexual harassment.
- First president accused of rape.
- First first lady to come under criminal investigation
- Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign contribution case
- First president to establish a legal defense fund.
- First president to be held in contempt of court
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad
- First president disbarred from the US Supreme Court and a state court

[besson3c]

Thanks for the list smacintush.. It's depressing that this is all nothing new.

F-ing politicians.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by smacintush

- Most number of witnesses to die suddenly

Has someone out there actually been keeping track of this for 200+ years?

I wonder if all the scandals these days are caused more by a higher level of public scrutiny and that our political leaders aren't any more/less corrupt than they always have been. I can't really prove this though.

[davesimondotcom]

Scandal is part of politics. From Teapot Dome to Watergate to Iran-Contra to Lewinsky to Foley's Folly, it's proof that politics is bloodsport.

[Spliffdaddy]

To keep things in perspective, remember that there are 430+ Congressmen, 100 Senators, and many many 'cabinet positions'. So, you're dealing with probably 1,000 politicians on the federal level.

I worked with a group of 1,000 employees for many years - and at any given time at least 100 of them were shady enough to warrant an investigation

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

To keep things in perspective, remember that there are 430+ Congressmen, 100 Senators, and many many 'cabinet positions'. So, you're dealing with probably 1,000 politicians on the federal level.

I worked with a group of 1,000 employees for many years - and at any given time at least 100 of them were shady enough to warrant an investigation

Wow, 10% of the employees in your workplace engage in gay sex. Damn.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by smacintush

- The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal malfeasance
- Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and associates
- Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal investigation
- Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to testify
- Most number of witnesses to die suddenly
- First president sued for sexual harassment.
- First president accused of rape.
- First first lady to come under criminal investigation
- Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign contribution case
- First president to establish a legal defense fund.
- First president to be held in contempt of court
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad
- First president disbarred from the US Supreme Court and a state court

But Bush is the corrupt one with ties!

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by itai195

Has someone out there actually been keeping track of this for 200+ years?

I wonder if all the scandals these days are caused more by a higher level of public scrutiny and that our political leaders aren't any more/less corrupt than they always have been. I can't really prove this though.

Well…no, I guess they probably haven't.

You may be right, it may be the public scrutiny that makes it seem more prevalent.

[besson3c]

If the Mark Foley thing does cost the Republicans this election, I will think that the voting public would be chasing its own tail in hoping that the Democratic replacements will not be corrupt, given that there certainly aren't any guarantees going into the voting booth of the integrity of the candidate in question.

There are surely other reasons to vote somebody out of office, perhaps we should focus on these?

[Kevin]

Just like Bush wasn't supposed to get the last election. THERE WAS NO WAY I was told. NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

[smacintush]

I like the line from the new Robin Williams movie: "Politicians are like diapers, they should be changed often and for the same reason."

Term limits anyone? (speaking of things that are NOT GONNA HAPPEN)

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by smacintush

I like the line from the new Robin Williams movie: "Politicians are like diapers, they should be changed often and for the same reason."

Term limits anyone? (speaking of things that are NOT GONNA HAPPEN)

That doesn't explain how Americans managed to vote for Bush a second time...

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Thanks for the list Spliffdaddy... could you kindly clarify just what the list is of though? Politicians who were forced to resign because of scandal? Politicians that were fired? Politicians that should have been fired?

Someone mentioned that in the battle of scandals, Republicans cut and run and Democrats stay the course. Vince Foster anyone? Granted, not necessarily a politician, but was sure involved in covering for them. If that's not a cut and run, I don't know what is.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Nicko

That doesn't explain how Americans managed to vote for Bush a second time...

The average voter felt Bush had a clearer objective for fighting terror among other things. The average voter felt Kerry simply opposed Bush. That wasn't enough to win.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Just like Bush wasn't supposed to get the last election. THERE WAS NO WAY I was told. NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

Waiting for it...

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

The average voter felt Bush had a clearer objective for fighting terror among other things. The average voter felt Kerry simply opposed Bush. That wasn't enough to win.

Most people are also chumps.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Nicko

Most people are also chumps.

You're right, we really should be using nairobbery as our model.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

You're right, we really should be using nairobbery as our model.

Now now, Kenya has only had multi-party democracy since 2002.

But before that they had a single-party authoritarian regime --- not unlike Bush & Co really!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Nicko

That doesn't explain how Americans managed to vote for Bush a second time...

Simple, the Dems should have had it in the bag. They got cocky and put a lame duck in and lost it.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by smacintush

Term limits anyone? (speaking of things that are NOT GONNA HAPPEN)

Term limits are a simplistic solution to a complex problem. And they only serve to have less qualified people in office.

Like my dad told me a long time ago: "We already have term limits. They are called elections."

Of course, with campaign finances and such, the system is tilted in favor of the incumbent. Campaign finance reform has done little to fix that.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by hyteckit

So Republicans cut and run and Democrats stay the course?

Dems stay the corse until its 'Mission Accomplished' ... oops I forgot, that line has been taken..

[besson3c]

*sigh* can we stop with the stupid little Democrat/Republican pot shots?

Both parties have had their share of corruption, cover up, varied treatment, it is really as simple as that. Generalizations do not work here, so why try?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c

*sigh* can we stop with the stupid little Democrat/Republican pot shots?

What are you, some sort of peacenik commie lib?

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by besson3c

*sigh* can we stop with the stupid little Democrat/Republican pot shots?

Both parties have had their share of corruption, cover up, varied treatment, it is really as simple as that. Generalizations do not work here, so why try?

Because the Right always pride themselves as to being the moral and god following voice of what THEY think America should be like, so when they mess up why not let them know it.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by stevesnj

Because the Right always pride themselves as to being the moral and god following voice of what THEY think America should be like, so when they mess up why not let them know it.

I'd like to think that all of us in here are smart enough to see through the utterly transparent "family values" moral crap and the like that the politicians espouse.

Maybe I shouldn't take this for granted though?

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Term limits are a simplistic solution to a complex problem. And they only serve to have less qualified people in office.

Being "qualified" only matters in a system geared to be very complex and based on seniority. The job of President and of a Congressman was never intended to to a lifelong career. It was intended that real people could go to Washington, serve the American people and GO HOME.

Like my dad told me a long time ago: "We already have term limits. They are called elections."

That's good in theory, yet the same corrupt assholes still remain in office for decades. It's very hard to unseat an incumbent and it gets harder the longer they are in office. They have a tremendous amount of power with the gerrymandering, political arm-twisting, name recognition, more money, using taxpayer funded resources to campaign, etc., etc., etc.

Of course, with campaign finances and such, the system is tilted in favor of the incumbent. Campaign finance reform has done little to fix that.

Campaign finance reform is a smokescreen. All they do is rearrange the rules to make it APPEAR that they have done something but in reality they never intended the laws to actually change anything. The more you limit campaign contributions the more you ensure that the ONLY people that can manage to get elected are very wealthy people with deep connections.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by stevesnj

Dems stay the corse until its 'Mission Accomplished' ... oops I forgot, that line has been taken..

Oh not this again. The whole "mission accomplished" rant has been debunked time and time again in here.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I'd like to think that all of us in here are smart enough to see through the utterly transparent "family values" moral crap and the like that the politicians espouse.

Just because a few mess up doesn't mean a party with 50 million+ members should ditch their support for family values.

Most hard-core heroin addicts will tell others not to do drugs. Does that mean they are wrong?

A thief in prison will tell others to stay in school. Is he wrong?

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I'd like to think that all of us in here are smart enough to see through the utterly transparent "family values" moral crap and the like that the politicians espouse.

Maybe I shouldn't take this for granted though?

I keep waiting for folks to see through the "we're for the children" stuff that some politicians on the other side of the aisle like to suggest, yet have done nothing to reprimand the Senator from Massachusetts whose immorality has actually racked up a bodycount.

Gary Studds (D) actually had sex and took an extended European holiday with a 17 year old page.

So while I'm very glad that Mr. Foley has resigned and has been exposed for the moral leper that he is, I am hopeful that someday soon some folks may let loose of that hypocrisy which allows them to use Mr. Foley to cast aspersions on all Republicans, while believing their own party to be pure driven snow.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Oh not this again. The whole "mission accomplished" rant has been debunked time and time again in here.

maybe by you but the rest of know what he meant, and he was clear about it.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by vmarks

I keep waiting for folks to see through the "we're for the children" stuff that some politicians on the other side of the aisle like to suggest, yet have done nothing to reprimand the Senator from Massachusetts whose immorality has actually racked up a bodycount.

Gary Studds (D) actually had sex and took an extended European holiday with a 17 year old page.

So while I'm very glad that Mr. Foley has resigned and has been exposed for the moral leper that he is, I am hopeful that someday soon some folks may let loose of that hypocrisy which allows them to use Mr. Foley to cast aspersions on all Republicans, while believing their own party to be pure driven snow.

I suppose cause it was hetero sex, people aren't as upset by it

You won't catch me using incidents like this to cast aspersions on a party, although I will snicker when people demonstrate their naivety.

[Spliffdaddy]

It wasn't hetero sex....*







* I mean, I wasn't there...but I don't think hetero sex was possible given the 2 males involved.