[typoon]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html

Lawyers complain of treatment for Canada terror suspects

Monday, June 12, 2006; Posted: 11:56 a.m. EDT (15:56 GMT)

BRAMPTON, Ontario (AP) -- Attorneys for some of the 14 Muslim terror suspects held in an alleged plot to blow up buildings in Canada complained at a bail hearing Monday about the treatment of their clients, saying one was beaten by a guard.

Fourteen of the 17 men arrested -- including five teenagers -- appeared Monday at the Ontario Court of Justice in Brampton, just west of Toronto. Another is scheduled to appear July 4, and two others are already in prison on unrelated weapons charges.

The five teenagers appeared in court wearing white T-shirts and chained together as the hearing got under way.

Attorneys for some of the adult suspects said their clients were being kept in solitary confinement, that one was beaten by a guard Sunday, and that they are not being given enough time with their families.

A crush of media descended on the courthouse as a large police presence, including snipers on rooftops, kept watch.

Outside court, one of the attorneys questioned whether the suspects could get a fair hearing.

Rocco Galati, who represents Ahmad Mustafa Ghany, 21, said the suspects have been declared guilty by Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper, the mayor of Toronto and some Muslim community leaders.

"Within mere days of the arrests, the prime minister of Canada and the mayor of Toronto publicly declared the guilt of the accused," Galati said.

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police announced June 2 that authorities had foiled a terrorist attack on targets in Ontario, saying the men had obtained three tons of ammonium nitrate, three times what was used in the 1995 Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, bombing that killed 168 people.

The news has roiled Canada, which has widely viewed itself as immune to such homegrown hatred, unlike its neighbor to the south. But Canada has become a named target for Islamic extremists due to its dominant Christian base and close ties with Washington.

Following the September 11, 2001, attacks, Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda terrorist network named Canada as one of the top five countries ripe for attacks.

Each suspect is charged with one count of participating in a terrorist group. Three of them -- Fahim Ahmad, 21, Mohammed Dirie, 22, and Yasim Abdi Mohamed, 24 -- also are charged with importing weapons and ammunition for the purpose of terrorist activity.

Nine face charges of receiving training from a terrorist group, while four are charged with providing training. Six also are charged with intending to cause an explosion that could cause serious bodily harm or death.

A defense lawyer for one suspect said last week that prosecutors would argue some of the Muslim defendants were plotting to storm Parliament, take politicians hostage and behead them unless Canada withdrew its troops from Afghanistan.

Some Canadians have expressed fear of an anti-Muslim backlash. After the arrests were announced, the windows of a Toronto mosque were smashed. On Friday, a prominent imam was attacked outside his Montreal mosque by a knife-wielding man in what police said was a hate crime.

On Saturday, the prime minister held a closed-door meeting with Muslim community leaders to discuss the fallout from the arrests. Participants said academics, activists and imams expressed a range of views about the possible motivations of the suspects.

"It's about time Muslims owned up to the fact it's a Muslim problem," said Farzana Hassan-Shahid of the Canadian Muslim Congress, adding she believes the community must forcefully denounce extremism. "We need to be more proactive, rather than issue statements of condemnation."

No sympathies from me.

[Spliffdaddy]

Show us how it's done, Canada.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Waa waa. Crap like this makes them look even worse when they are trying to gain sympathy.

[DBursey]

It's absolutely to be expected that the lawyers of the accused (remember that word?) would engage the legal system on behalf of their clients - liberal democracies are built on and around the rule of law. Canadians can appeal to the charter of rights as well.

As for the aforementioned incidents of violence - isolated as they were so as to warrant mention in the media - there seems everywhere to exist a quota of thoughtless petty reactionary elements. The incidents and those who perpetrate them still warrant the condemnation of the greater community, including that of Canadian Muslims - see comments from the likes of Tarek Fatah.

[Kevin]

Only in Amer.. er wait...

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Show us how it's done, Canada.

We will.

Originally Posted by typically moronic CNN new report

Lawyers complain of treatment for Canada terror suspects ... Attorneys for some of the adult suspects said their clients were being kept in solitary confinement, that one was beaten by a guard Sunday, and that they are not being given enough time with their families.

Nobody get their knickers in a knot. The lawyers are just doing their jobs.

Originally Posted by typically moronic CNN new report

The news has roiled Canada, which has widely viewed itself as immune to such homegrown hatred, unlike its neighbor to the south.

Widely? Rubbish. Canada has experienced homegrown terrorism before (such as FLQ, Louis Riel), so only the history-impaired believe this.

Originally Posted by typically moronic CNN new report

But Canada has become a named target for Islamic extremists due to its dominant Christian base and close ties with Washington.

Wrong. We have been targeted for our participation in the Afghanistan war.

Originally Posted by typically moronic CNN new report

Each suspect is charged with one count of participating in a terrorist group. Three of them -- Fahim Ahmad, 21, Mohammed Dirie, 22, and Yasim Abdi Mohamed, 24 -- also are charged with importing weapons and ammunition for the purpose of terrorist activity...

... from the US, I might add. (We gotta do something about that porous border! )

Originally Posted by typically moronic CNN new report

Some Canadians have expressed fear of an anti-Muslim backlash.

Including me.

Originally Posted by typically moronic CNN new report

After the arrests were announced, the windows of a Toronto mosque were smashed. On Friday, a prominent imam was attacked outside his Montreal mosque by a knife-wielding man in what police said was a hate crime.

Probably deranged individuals. That's not the backlash I'm concerned about. I'm more concerned about trigger-happy cops (like in the UK) or Orwellian legal measures.

Originally Posted by typically moronic CNN new report

On Saturday, the prime minister held a closed-door meeting with Muslim community leaders to discuss the fallout from the arrests. Participants said academics, activists and imams expressed a range of views about the possible motivations of the suspects.

"It's about time Muslims owned up to the fact it's a Muslim problem," said Farzana Hassan-Shahid of the Canadian Muslim Congress, adding she believes the community must forcefully denounce extremism. "We need to be more proactive, rather than issue statements of condemnation."

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by typoon

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html

SNIP

"It's about time Muslims owned up to the fact it's a Muslim problem," said Farzana Hassan-Shahid of the Canadian Muslim Congress, adding she believes the community must forcefully denounce extremism. "We need to be more proactive, rather than issue statements of condemnation."

No sympathies from me.

It's about time. We need to have more members of the sensible, quiet Muslim majority speak out in similar terms. I have been arguing, for years it seems like now, that moderate Muslims must speak out in a forceful and direct way when the minority of Islamofascists do horrible things in the name of the Muslim religion. There are too many people, in too many countries, willing to lump all Muslims together with the small subset of Muslims who are radicals/jihadists/terrorists. So, the majorit of moderate Muslims need to make it known to the world that these extemists do NOT speak for them. I an heartened that this has happened so publicly in Canada.

[Chuckit]

I don't think it will do any good, not any more than Christians speaking out against crazy Muslims would.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

Wrong. We have been targeted for our participation in the Afghanistan war.

You mean that is what you THINK is the reason.

Come on lpk, do we REALLY have to go over this dishonest habit of you treating your personal opinions as facts again?

You are STILL doing it after all this time.

Why?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Kevin

You mean that is what you THINK is the reason.

Come on lpk, do we REALLY have to go over this dishonest habit of you treating your personal opinions as facts again?

You are STILL doing it after all this time.

Why?

So, why was Canada targeted by terrorism?

[Sky Captain]

Because of it's liberal Western values/culture?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

So, why was Canada targeted by terrorism?

Canada in general? I am not sure.

But to take a wild guess, I would say it was for the same reasons it attacks any country that isnt ruled by Muslim law, or doesn't bow down to their demands.

Canada is one such country.

[Sky Captain]

Now there's claims of "torture".

Seems vaugley familiar.

"That torture includes being kept in a room that's lit 24 hours a day, being woken up every half-hour, being beaten by the guards, on and on and on," said Galati, who represents Ahmad Mustafa Ghany, a 21-year-old health sciences graduate of McMaster University.

[Y3a]

If you remove the heads from the torsos, those complaints will go away.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Canada in general? I am not sure.

Honest.

Originally Posted by Kevin

But to take a wild guess, I would say it was for the same reasons it attacks any country that isnt ruled by Muslim law, or doesn't bow down to their demands.

Any opinions as to what those reasons are?

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

So, why was Canada targeted by terrorism?

We already know why. Let's ask the gang-leader himself:

Originally Posted by Osama bin Laden

What do your governments want from their alliance with America in attacking us in Afghanistan? I mention in particular Britain, France, Italy, Canada, Germany and Australia. [...] Why should fear, killing, destruction, displacement, orphaning and widowing continue to be our lot, while security, stability and happiness be your lot? This is unfair. It is time we get even. You will be killed just as you kill, and will be bombed just as you bomb. And expect more that will further distress you.

from: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/os...aden/tape.html

Canada is a target because we participated in the war in Afghanistan. As he says, it's about "getting even."

[I still have Kevin on ignore, so I'm not too interested in his questions to me.]

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

We already know why. Let's ask the gang-leader himself:

from: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/os...aden/tape.html

Canada is a target because we participated in the war in Afghanistan. As he says, it's about "getting even."

[I still have Kevin on ignore, so I'm not too interested in his questions to me.]

But, Kevin appears to be of the opinion that quoting Bin Laden's stated reasons is a "dishonest habit of treating personal opinions as facts". Of course, Bin Laden could be lying about his reasons, but what purpose would be achieved by saying the purpose of his terrorism is about retribution if it's really about attacking Western liberal values? Why not just say it's about attacking Western liberal values?

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Notice no Canadians are chanting that "they hate us because of our freedom" crap.

[Spliffdaddy]

To be fair, that wouldn't be expected to happen in a Socialist utopia.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

To be fair, that wouldn't be expected to happen in a Socialist utopia.

Oooh

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

Notice no Canadians are chanting that "they hate us because of our freedom" crap.

To be clear, I do think "they hate us because of our freedom," but they probably wouldn't be too concerned about us if it wasn't for Afghanistan.

Ultraconservative Wahhabists do hate western values. Hell, they hate most of mainstream Islam, too, so that isn't surprising.

[Wiskedjak]

double post

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

To be clear, I do think "they hate us because of our freedom," but they probably wouldn't be too concerned about us if it wasn't for Afghanistan.

Ultraconservative Wahhabists do hate western values. Hell, they hate most of mainstream Islam, too, so that isn't surprising.

I don't think it's quite as simple as "the terrorists hate us because of our freedoms". I think they don't like the freedoms enjoyed by Western cultures and hate how influential our cultures (and their associated freedoms) are in their cultures.

I can appreciate that they don't want their cultures influenced by other cultures. You may view their restrictions of freedoms as oppressive, but there are some that see some oppression even in the US. I suspect that many Americans can appreciate this as you fight to maintain your own restrictions on freedoms (same-sex marriage, gambling, public nudity) enjoyed by cultures even more liberal than your own.

What I cannot appreciate are the actions these terrorists employ in their effort to protect their cultures.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

I don't think it's quite as simple as "the terrorists hate us because of our freedoms". I think they don't like the freedoms enjoyed by Western cultures and hate how influential our cultures (and their associated freedoms) are in their cultures.

How is most of europe less free than the US?

[Sky Captain]

Italy is prosecuting someone for sluring Islam.
That's how Europe is less free.
Try getting a "tuner" past the TUV in Germany.
Try obtaining a pilot's license in the UK. Or purchasing a firearm. Or owning a pocket knife.

Mind you we have some silly restrctive laws here too. But nothing to the degree of Europe.

[FeLiZeCaT]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

To be clear, I do think "they hate us because of our freedom," but they probably wouldn't be too concerned about us if it wasn't for Afghanistan.

Ultraconservative Wahhabists do hate western values. Hell, they hate most of mainstream Islam, too, so that isn't surprising.

I think this last statement is key. Some groups may have a very clear idea of what they hate, and are very focussed on the realisation of their objectives.

Everything else is conjecture. I think there is not much credit to be given to terrorist organisations. Agenda must change as opportunities change. Broad statement may seem to provide an idea, but basically, I don't think they say as much as we attribute them.

I do not believe that most terrorist organisations are as organised and structured as we are led to believe. They are most likely isolated, and get inspirations from a general idea but the specifics probably do not resist some basic self-criticism. The hatred feeds a will to act, and I am sure there are plenty of reasons to rationalize the need to act out of that anger, but the philosophies underlying it are very thin.

Look at how this group was formed in Canada. Empathy, anger, will to act. But not as organized, not as efficient at hiding themselves before the act.

Certainly there are some groups that are by far better prepared, but I am willing to bet that most groups are not.

Only in Iraq have the multiple sub-groups decided to work together against the coalition, because they can work together, and because there are immediate advantages. Long term viability of those associations remain to be seen though. But the link binding them all together is tenuous I believe, both in Iraq, and outside of Iraq..