[freudling]

Just got my UniMBP today. Playing with it for an hour... initial observations:

What I like:

-Never going back to matte screen, love the new one, much brighter and richer
-Keyboard
-Speed (faster for sure, compared to my Rev. 2 MBP C2Duo 2.16)
-Design (perfect - almost)
-Sound (improved!)

What I hate:

-Trackpad (I know I will learn to use it, right now I hate it... clicks don't register, etc.)
-Loose hinge (hinge is too loose, does not hold the screen well, specially when laying down to compute)
-Sharp bezel (once again, Apple decides to not round the bezel on the top, but just on the bottom. Idiots.).

Overall I am happy, and will live with the hates. Some issues coming up: loose hinge complaints and flickering screen, as well as the battery/HD cover not fitting properly after it has been removed.

[Simon]

I also had some trouble getting used to the new trackpad at first. But the fact that it's so big is really nice. I'm not sure if I like the "missing" button though. I'll need to play around with it some more.

I noticed the loose hinge too. But actually I kind of like it. It feels like I'm putting less stress on the screen when open or close the lid with just one hand. And in my experience it wasn't that loose to close by itself or something. It's just less resistant than it used to be.

I'm not so sure I like the screen though. The colors are nice and it's great in a dark room, but I see by far more reflections on it than on my older glossy MBP. The glass really takes glossy to the next level.

[Simon]

Here are some more benchmarks of the new MBP SSD.





At 108 MB/s its indeed faster than any available 2.5" HDD for reads.

[starman]

I decided that Apple made a lousy decision by removing Firewire from their Macbook line and got a white Macbook instead of the new one. I like it, it does what I want it to do and I saved $300. I already put the FW port to use twice in the few hours I had it home.

Apple is stupid for removing FW.

The sales person I spoke to at the Apple Store said that many people have been complaining about the loss of FW in the 13" Macbooks.

So there ya go, Apple. You screwed yourself out of a sale of a new machine because of your silly vision. No way in hell am I spending $1000 more to get a 15" MBP which I don't need just for a FW port.

[Simon]

After reading that I'm wondering if Apple actually might have earned more from that $1k white MB sale compared to what they would have made if you had gone with the $1299 Al unibody MB. I'm curious what their margin is on the white MB. But my guess is they're earning quite something on it.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Simon 

After reading that I'm wondering if Apple actually might have earned more from that $1k white MB sale compared to what they would have made if you had gone with the $1299 Al unibody MB. I'm curious what their margin is on the white MB. But my guess is they're earning quite something on it.

That would certainly fit in well with their warnings about a "product transition" affecting gross margins.

Those machined aluminum bodies are HELLA expensive to make.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Those machined aluminum bodies are HELLA expensive to make.

Indeed. Whereas the white MB is an established design using available and less expensive components. It's a bit of a stretch I know, but I really wouldn't be so surprised if revenue form the white MB was quite good compared to the others. At least now while Al unibody is new.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by starman 

ISo there ya go, Apple. You screwed yourself out of a sale of a new machine because of your silly vision.

Did they? You said you still bough a new MacBook, just not the uni-body one. I wonder which one they make better margin on, too.

[starman]

*shrug* I don't know, but all I know is that I saved myself $300. I'm guessing that Apple lost SOMETHING from that.

[Dakar V]

True, but it's something less tangible.

[starman]

Well, if anything I made a statement saying "I'm not buying your Macbooks without FW in them".

[Dakar V]

I was thinking more it's one less one to attract attention in the wild.

[starman]

I'd be curious to see if the sale of Whitebooks and Blackbooks went up after this.

[Dakar V]

That's tough. If I know the hardcore Apple base, they'll jump at the first new case in ages.

[starman]

Maybe. I think even Apple freaks would be a little skeptical to buy one after losing an important port like that.

What I'd hate to hear are Apple apologists saying "if you need a FW port you need a MBP anyway". Arguments like that annoy the piss out of me.

[Dakar V]

I wonder if it's need isn't overestimated. Or at the very least, more replaceable than indicated (FW HD enclosure --> USB 2.0)

[starman]

For FW drives, I can see USB. The thing is, I already connected my Mac Pro to my Macbook to copy stuff over and used it for my audio device which only has FW. Unfortunately, not everything is USB and shame on Apple for not giving us the option.

I mean, how tough was it to put a FW400 port in there? Really....

EDIT: they should have put one of those cardslots in there.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by starman 

For FW drives, I can see USB. The thing is, I already connected my Mac Pro to my Macbook to copy stuff over and used it for my audio device which only has FW. Unfortunately, not everything is USB and shame on Apple for not giving us the option.

The vast majority of home-user audio devices are USB-based.

If you need high-quality, low-latency multichannel audio, you're probably eligible for MacBook Pro customership, according to Apple's reasoning.

I have to say that they're probably not terribly off-base in that assumption.



(btw, did you get my reply to your PM?)

[fisherKing]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The vast majority of home-user audio devices are USB-based.

If you need high-quality, low-latency multichannel audio, you're probably eligible for MacBook Pro customership, according to Apple's reasoning.

I have to say that they're probably not terribly off-base in that assumption.

but how does this work for firewire audio/video/hard drive people who either: a: want a smaller, lighter laptop or b:cannot afford a macbook pro (or cannot afford to replace their FW peripherals with usb ones)?

all in all, apple's worst decision ever (in my book, anyway). PLUS the screen sucks...

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by starman 

Maybe. I think even Apple freaks would be a little skeptical to buy one after losing an important port like that.

What I'd hate to hear are Apple apologists saying "if you need a FW port you need a MBP anyway". Arguments like that annoy the piss out of me.

USB2 is as fast as FW400, so the only thing I'd be missing is Target Disk Mode. Is TDM cool? Absolutely. But for me, to be honest, it's not a dealbreaker.

[starman]

It was a dealbreaker for me. Hence, the Whitebook. The audio device I use for my podcast is Firewire based. I've owned the 17". Too big. I've owned the 15". Not bad, but still kinda bulky. I just wanted something simple to carry around that had FW on it. Target Disc Mode helped me transfer a ton of stuff over last night.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by starman 

I'd be curious to see if the sale of Whitebooks and Blackbooks went up after this.

That's gonna be tough as they aren't selling any BlackBooks anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if the new $999 white MB is doing very well though. And I have this feeling that Apple anticipated that. Hence the $999 price which incidentally will probably drive a very nice margin.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by starman 

I mean, how tough was it to put a FW400 port in there? Really....

Terribly tough actually.



Unless of course you would be willing to accept an extra 1/2" of case depth though. Gatheirng from your comments about the huge 17" and the oversized 15" I doubt you would want that though.

Another option would have been to sacrifice the second USB port. But considering that two USB ports are probably already too few, I'm pretty sure a vast majority of users would rather have two USB that one USB and one FW400 port.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by starman 

EDIT: they should have put one of those cardslots in there.

I agree 100%. An EC/34 slot would make the MB much more versatile. And this whole FW debate would be moot (just as all this talk about eSATA).

But again, where would you put it? Would you make the case bigger? Fatter? Would you sacrifice the optical for it? Look at the images of the MB internals. Where do you put that EC/34?

[starman]

If they could do it with the original White/Blackbook, they could have done it with these new ones. Half an inch wouldn't have bothered me.

[Urkel]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Terribly tough actually.



Unless of course you would be willing to accept an extra 1/2" of case depth though. Gatheirng from your comments about the huge 17" and the oversized 15" I doubt you would want that though.

Another option would have been to sacrifice the second USB port. But considering that two USB ports are probably already too few, I'm pretty sure a vast majority of users would rather have two USB that one USB and one FW400 port.

If you believe that then essentially what Apple is saying is "In 2006 we designed the most beautiful and efficient 13" notebook ever. In 2008 we f-d up."

C'mon. Are we really going to pretend that adding a Firewire port into a machine that shares the same dimensions as its predecessor was impossible? I'm all for loving Apple, but to make excuses for them is ridiculous. There's only one reason there's no Firewire port and that's because Apple intentionally chose not to put one in. (And they got away with it because their "fans" are under the delusion that they actually work for Apple)

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Urkel 

C'mon. Are we really going to pretend that adding a Firewire port into a machine that shares the same dimensions as its predecessor was impossible? I'm all for loving Apple, but to make excuses for them is ridiculous. There's only one reason there's no Firewire port and that's because Apple intentionally chose not to put one in. (And they got away with it because their "fans" are under the delusion that they actually work for Apple)

I'm making excuses for them? WTF? Why don't you tone down the personal accusations, huh? Especially when you have the facts wrong. I'm not defending Apple here, I'm explaining why it's not trivial to get FW in that specific case. And I resent noobs accusing me of being apologetic when actually I'm dedicating my time to explaining to those very noobs (who obviously haven't seen the guts of a MB) that there's no hidden agenda here.

Obviously I have to remind you of the fact that the new model is actually smaller than its predecessor. Do you really think Apple would do away with a port so many people supposedly want if there were a trivial way to get it in there? C'mon, show me in that picture where they should have put it.

It's a trade-off. You can get FW in there if you make the case thicker, or you add 1/2" depth, or you reduce battery size (and hence capacity), etc. Sure that could be done. And sure some people would have liked it that way. But Apple didn't. Apple wanted it to be small and have good battery life. Apple thought that was more important than FW and saved some money in the process.

Do I agree with that? That's entirely irrelevant. So there goes the apologist crap. The relevant thing is that I understand there's no little conspiracy behind this. It's all a question of engineering and business. Woohoo. Get a clue before you attack others for Pete's sake.

[fisherKing]

really, look at the 12" powerbook. on one side, ethernet, modem, firewire, 2 usb ports, video, audio in, audio out. plus the ac and a kensington lock. really, no FW on the new 13" is a choice (and a bad one)...

[Simon]

No surprise.

Thickness MB: 0.95"
Thickness 12" PB: 1.18"

I'm sure if the MB had 1.18" of thickness and only one RAM slot you could fit more than just one extra jack in there. You could probably also increase battery lifetime by 2 hours. Maybe next time Apple should just ask the armchair engineers at MacNN Forums to design these MBs for them.

[starman]

Talking to the rep at the Apple Store, it's more than just the "armchair engineers" that are bitching about the lack of Firewire. Apparently this has been a dealkiller to many people.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by starman 

Talking to the rep at the Apple Store, it's more than just the "armchair engineers" that are bitching about the lack of Firewire.

But this is not what this is about. Anybody can miss FW on the MB. I personally do too. That has nothing to do with engineering.

The topic brought up here was if Apple could have easily added FW to this MB but just chose not to because they wanted to screw a couple of people over. The answer to that is clearly no. Anything else is just silly.

I resent this conspiracy crap that gets passed around here every time not everybody gets what they had hoped for. Let the engineers do the engineering. The buyers can vote with their wallets.

[starman]

I did vote with my wallet. That's why I bought the Whitebook.

FACT: Apple could have put FW in the new line of Macbooks and made it just a tad bigger. They chose not to so that they force people to either buy the previous White/Black Macbook or the Macbook Pro.

[fisherKing]

Originally Posted by Simon 

But this is not what this is about. Anybody can miss FW on the MB. I personally do too. That has nothing to do with engineering.

The topic brought up here was if Apple could have easily added FW to this MB but just chose not to because they wanted to screw a couple of people over. The answer to that is clearly no. Anything else is just silly.

I resent this conspiracy crap that gets passed around here every time not everybody gets what they had hoped for. Let the engineers do the engineering. The buyers can vote with their wallets.

conspiracy? some of us are mac users wanting a small, light laptop, and need firewire. that's all this is really about.
if the 12" powerbook (look at the length of the side, not the height) can have it, and the previous 13" macbook has it... the new macbook could have had it. it's a CHOICE apple made (and worthy of discussion).

[starman]

I think it wouldn't bother me so much if it wasn't Apple that trumpeted FW in the first place.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by starman 

FACT: Apple could have put FW in the new line of Macbooks and made it just a tad bigger.

That is correct. That's a fact. (And it's what I've been saying for the past 20 posts or so.)

They chose not to so that they force people to either buy the previous White/Black Macbook or the Macbook Pro.

That is your assumption. Not a fact.

Here's another assumption - not a fact either. Apple believes that FW is on its way out for consumers. So they chose not to make a larger case just to accomodate a legacy port.

Another assumption. Apple believes that FW is on its way out for consumers. The bare 9400M G chipset does not have FW support. They saved a buck on every MB by not adding extra FW circuitry.

We could go on...

[starman]

No, that's a FACT, Simon. There's no FW in the Macbook, therefore Apple CHOSE to remove it. It's not like they made the molds and said "oh, snap! who left off the FW port from the mold?"

[Simon]

Originally Posted by fisherKing 

conspiracy? some of us are mac users wanting a small, light laptop, and need firewire.

Right. That's why Apple is selling the $999 white MB with FW.

if the 12" powerbook (look at the length of the side, not the height)

You see, there's the engineering. It's about volume. You can sacrifice width/depth for thickness or vise-versa. It's the reason the 17" MBP was slimmer than the 15" MBP and still had more battery capacity. It's a fact that the new MB has less volume than its predeccessor. That's already a good indicator Apple was going to leave some stuff out. FW was one, battery size was another.

it's a CHOICE apple made (and worthy of discussion).

I agree 100%. As long as we talk about facts that will actually be interesting. The size of the new MB case is a fact. Steve's opinion on FW in the consumer space is a fact. However, this conspiracy baloney I read here is not:

Originally Posted by Urkel

(And they got away with it because their "fans" are under the delusion that they actually work for Apple)

[Simon]

Originally Posted by starman 

No, that's a FACT, Simon. There's no FW in the Macbook, therefore Apple CHOSE to remove it. It's not like they made the molds and said "oh, snap! who left off the FW port from the mold?"

Of course they chose to do so.

But concluding that they did so because they wanted to screw people over is not a fact. They would have had to pay a price to keep FW in there, and quite obviously to them it wasn't worth that.

[starman]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Of course they chose to do so.

But concluding that they did so because they wanted to screw people over is not a fact. They would have had to pay a price to keep FW in there, and quite obviously to them it wasn't worth that.

And yet, you don't know that for a FACT yourself.

They're already charging $300 more than the Whitebook. Three Hundred Dollars. I'm sorry, but I fail to believe that a little aluminum would have made that much of a difference to Apple. It would have made so many people happy if they just added it, selling more machines.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread....t=775&tstart=0

[Simon]

By "pay a price" I wasn't merely talking about the cost of the FW circuitry. I meant that they would have had to trade off other things (larger case, smaller battery, etc.). It's not hard to imagine a unibody MB with FW. The question is how to do it. And while some people would have gladly put up with a larger case or less battery capacity to get it, Apple quite obviously didn't think so. But this isn't because Steve's out to screw people. It's because they felt (for example) that thin was more important than FW. Or battery was more important than FW. Or their margins were more important than FW. There are many different possible rational explanations. I'm not saying it is one or the other of those. What I am saying though, is that there's a engineering or business reason behind this. Not a FW vendetta.

[starman]

They're not too smart then. Did you read the thread I linked to? With all the brains behind Apple, they didn't see the outrage from leaving it off?

And BTW: the smaller mini-FW port would have been acceptable. Think about that while you make excuses for Apple.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by starman 

They're not too smart then. Did you read the thread I linked to? With all the brains behind Apple, they didn't see the outrage from leaving it off?

I'm sure they did. We're talking about the company that abruptly killed the floppy drive and forced USB on people in lieu of SCSI and ADB. The reaction was kind of similar.

[starman]

I remember that reaction...until people realized that USB was a better solution all around.

Unfortunately, a lot of people still need Firewire. This isn't some $30 keyboard we need it with, it's hardware that costs thousands of dollars to replace. And what about Target Disk Mode? Apple all of a sudden is saying we need to drop $700 more on a laptop (or TWICE as much if you use the Whitebook as a basis) for that feature?

EDIT: first thing I did with my Whitebook was install Twhirl. Second thing: Target Disk Mode. Third thing: install the drivers for my audio devices.

[fisherKing]

whatever the intention, or whether this was a design issue or a choice...a LOT of macusers are angry (google a bit). this isn't a floppy drive-replaced by usb issue (i remember the uproar, and i also remember usb peripherals appearing rapidly).
this is a port used by a lot of people for external drives, video, audio. for those of us who need firewire, and want a smaller laptop (or don't have the money for both a new mac and new peripherals) this is a huge disappointment. and again, worth discussion...

[Simon]

Originally Posted by starman 

Think about that while you make excuses for Apple.

Was that directed towards me?

Great. I'm done. If people's blind anger over this FW thing makes everybody who's not foaming "apologetic", well then so be it.

One thing I do know. The more the angry people shout the more it reminds me of the iMac SCSI thing. I'll bet right here and now, in a year to two FW will be pretty much forgotten. And all this anger, what will it have accomplished? Nothing.

[fisherKing]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Was that directed towards me?

Great. I'm done. If people's blind anger over this FW thing makes everybody who's not foaming "apologetic", well then so be it.

One thing I do know. The more the angry people shout the more it reminds me of the iMac SCSI thing. I'll bet right here and now, in a year to two FW will be pretty much forgotten. And all this anger, what will it have accomplished? Nothing.

simon...you sound pretty angry yourself. what are you so angry about? if you don't need firewire, you'll be fine with a new macbook. for others, this is a problem worthy of discussion (as i've pointed out above).

[Simon]

Originally Posted by fisherKing 

if you don't need firewire, you'll be fine with a new macbook.

The thing is that I actually need FW. I use it every day. And you'd know that if you had read my replies instead of just chosen to bicker.

The fact that I rely on FW doesn't cloud my judgement. I understand Apple's rationale because I try to see beyond my own needs. Something quite a few people here obviously can't. I'm not angry, but I resent people calling me an "Apple apologist" merely because I prefer listing engineering/business considerations over screaming bloody murder. Especially when this rage is as unwarranted as it is: Apple is right now selling brand new MBs with FW.

[fisherKing]

Originally Posted by Simon 

The thing is that I actually need FW. I use it every day. And you'd know that if you had read my replies instead of just chosen to bicker.

The fact that I rely on FW doesn't cloud my judgement. I understand Apple's rationale because I try to see beyond my own needs. Something quite a few people here obviously can't. I'm not angry, but I resent people calling me an "Apple apologist" merely because I prefer listing engineering/business considerations over screaming bloody murder. Especially when this rage is as unwarranted as it is: Apple is right now selling brand new MBs with FW.

simon, apple is selling LAST YEAR'S macbook with firewire. and there is nothing wrong with consumer considerations (over, say, "engineering/business considerations"). i don't understand why you want to see beyond your own needs:
aren't you a valuable customer for apple? shouldn't your work needs have validity?

i feel that mine do, and, apparently so do a lot of people. and no firewire on the new macbook IS an issue. again, if you're comfortable with apple's decision, let it go. and let those of us who are upset, or angry, and need to discuss this...discuss this! truce!

[CharlesS]

We've really got a thought police running in here, don't we? Sheesh.

Originally Posted by starman 

I remember that reaction...until people realized that USB was a better solution all around.

Better than ADB and serial, yes. Better than SCSI - hell no. Using an external hard drive or CD burner with the original iMac was a painful experience, resulting in the iMac being basically a toy until... surprise... FireWire came around.

FireWire was the reason we stopped bitching about SCSI, not USB.

BTW, here's something else to think about - if there's no room on the MacBook for a FW port, then there's no room for an eSATA port either - and that's poised to become the next standard for high-speed connectivity. If Apple's really that tight for space, they're not going to be able to adopt new technologies down the road, and they're going to be stuck in the past for a long time.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by starman 

And yet, you don't know that for a FACT yourself.

They're already charging $300 more than the Whitebook. Three Hundred Dollars. I'm sorry, but I fail to believe that a little aluminum would have made that much of a difference to Apple. It would have made so many people happy if they just added it, selling more machines.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread....t=775&tstart=0

I think you're missing the point:

People aren't just going to switch to competitors' machines because three models of Macs no longer feature a certain port.

The sixteen people that care (I'm one of them) are going to switch to different models that DO feature the port.

I'll bet you Apple's margin on the white MacBook is much higher than on the alu books, since the development costs have been WAY offset by stellar sales on the plastic books over the past two years.

So you've done Apple a favor by buying the white Book. And even if they *don't* make more on the white MacBook I'll be offsetting the loss and doing Apple a favor by grudgingly buying a MacBook Pro at $700 more. I won't be unhappy with my choice, and you aren't unhappy your choice, and Apple CERTAINLY isn't unhappy with either of our choices.

"Outrage"?

Pfft.