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Nelson Mandela dead at age 95
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OAW
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Dec 5, 2013, 06:04 PM
 
Humanity has lost one of the greatest leaders in modern times.

Nelson Mandela dead at 95 - World News

OAW
     
Shaddim
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Dec 5, 2013, 06:38 PM
 
What a long, full life. Everyone needs to celebrate.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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The Final Dakar
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Dec 6, 2013, 10:11 AM
 
We should all be so lucky to live 20+ years and become a President after getting released from prison in our 70s.
     
osiris
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Dec 6, 2013, 10:22 AM
 
Quite an extraordinary man, we need more leaders with his character.
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The Final Dakar
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Dec 6, 2013, 05:38 PM
 
Welp we got our three responses, that's a rap.
     
Laminar
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Dec 6, 2013, 05:40 PM
 
     
Stogieman
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Dec 7, 2013, 12:50 PM
 
The Paul Walker thread got more responses.


(Just saying.)

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Chongo
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Dec 8, 2013, 12:02 PM
 
One man's rebel, another man's freedom fighter.
     
The Final Dakar
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Dec 10, 2013, 10:08 AM
 
So apparently this guy was a communist, and that not only negates everything he did but makes him lower than dirt.
     
Laminar
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Dec 10, 2013, 12:29 PM
 
But even worse, was he a socialist?
     
The Final Dakar
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Dec 10, 2013, 12:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
But even worse, was he a socialist?
Same thing, duh
     
Shaddim
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Dec 10, 2013, 02:44 PM
 
"One noble socialist is a precious thing, a nation of socialists is a disaster." - Henry Kissinger

Mandela was a good man, at his heart a righteous man, his politics served well-enough for stabilizing S.A., but not for maintaining it. But the latter was never his intention, he wanted to leave that for younger statesmen.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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OAW  (op)
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Dec 10, 2013, 02:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
So apparently this guy was a communist, and that not only negates everything he did but makes him lower than dirt.
Mandela was clearly allied with communists in South Africa. As to whether or not he was actually a communist himself has long been a matter of debate. Mandela himself always denied it. He was first and foremost an African Nationalist. Though he did have long and enduring friendships with non-blacks, some of whom were communists, over their shared opposition to apartheid. We know in the 1940s he was opposed to communism and actively tried to expel communists from the African National Congress Youth League (ANCYL) because he considered their ideology to be "un-African" ... and because he viewed the South African struggle to be racial in nature as opposed to class warfare. The atheistic aspects of communism also conflicted with his Christian faith. And this was a period when the leadership of the ANC was still officially opposed to armed struggle against the white apartheid government in South Africa. By the 1950s Mandela was convinced that armed struggle was inevitable. And the leadership of the ANC was convinced in 1960 after the Sharpeville Massacre. Which is notable, because in recent years there is some evidence that by the 1960s he may have secretly been a member of the South African Communist Party's central executive committee at the time of his arrest in 1962. So even if that was the case it appears it was more "opportunistic" in nature. The ANC needed financial and military support for its armed struggle ... which many Western governments were loathe to provide. Because of the "Oh yeah that freedom and democracy thing we're always going on and on about? Well, sorry, but that really only applies to white people." factor. And again, Mandela already had close contacts in South African communist circles due to their shared opposition to apartheid. And those individuals had connections in Beijing and Moscow which were willing to provide support for the guerrilla campaign of the military wing of the ANC (Umkhonto we Sizwe or Spear of the Nation) ... with Mandela as its commander. In the end, Mandela never publicly espoused communist ideology. And when the ANC came to power with Mandela as its president it certainly didn't take the nation communist. Which it easily could have if that were its aim.

OAW
     
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Dec 10, 2013, 02:56 PM
 
     
The Final Dakar
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Dec 10, 2013, 03:21 PM
 
Newt Gingrich weighed in on him, and got flak for it:
President Nelson Mandela was one of the greatest leaders of our lifetime.
He emerged from 27 long years in prison with a wisdom, a compassion, and a commitment to helping other people that was astonishing. His life was a triumph of the human spirit.
His rebuttal is quite astute:
Some of the people who are most opposed to oppression from Washington attack Mandela when he was opposed to oppression in his own country…As Americans we celebrate the farmers at Lexington and Concord who used force to oppose British tyranny. We praise George Washington for spending eight years in the field fighting the British Army's dictatorial assault on our freedom.

Patrick Henry said, "Give me liberty or give me death."

Thomas Jefferson wrote and the Continental Congress adopted that "all men are created equal, and they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Doesn't this apply to Nelson Mandela and his people?
I just don't get this knee-jerk reaction to "communism". Or the inability to acknowledge someones achievements outside of differing philosophies. It's been 20 years since the Berlin Wall fell and people seem more spooked by commies now than 10 years ago.

And the PL wonders why I give people shit for throwing around the communism term. If OAWs post is accurate, Mandela was at best a lax communist yet for some people on the right that's enough to make him a revolutionary pariah. I just don't get the hate.

(Cruz got destroyed on facebook as well)
     
OAW  (op)
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Dec 10, 2013, 07:10 PM
 
There is a reason why Newt Gingrich is catching flak from some of his supporters. When it comes to people of color who fought against white societal domination, mainstream conservatives often display a rather annoying tendency to try to co-opt the legacy and message of these individuals in death even when they vehemently opposed them in life. We see this with Nelson Mandela just like we see it with Martin Luther King Jr.. However, the extreme far-right conservatives tend not to do this. They couldn't stand such leaders in life and they aren't about to change now that they are dead. Now to his credit, Newt Gingrich doesn't quite fit into either of these buckets when it comes to Mandela. He was, in fact, one of a small group of young conservatives who opposed the mainstream conservative orthodoxy on the apartheid government in South Africa and helped to override President Reagan's veto of US sanctions against the regime back in the 1980s. Unfortunately, Newt Gingrich is not above playing dog-whistle politics in order to garner the support of far-right conservatives when it suits his agenda. So in light of this, is it really a surprise when a man who has recently said this ....

Originally Posted by Newt Gingrich
What if [Obama] is so outside our comprehension, that only if you understand Kenyan, anti-colonial behavior, can you begin to piece together [his actions]?" That is the most accurate, predictive model for his behavior.
... to rile up far-right conservatives against President Obama (and let's put aside whether that's true or not for the sake of this discussion) turns around and praises Nelson Mandela who was clearly anti-colonial and anti-apartheid in his own worldview? It's inconsistent to say the least. And that is why he's catching so much heat for it in those circles.

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Jawbone54
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Dec 11, 2013, 12:19 PM
 
So the sign language interpreter at the memorial service was fake...

Nelson Mandela Memorial Sign Language Fake In Gifs

     
The Final Dakar
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Dec 11, 2013, 12:34 PM
 
I was about to post that... weird thing to overshadow the memorial. I wonder why he did it; Probably thought he could fake it, even though it makes no logical sense
     
osiris
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Dec 11, 2013, 01:12 PM
 
Geezus, why would you do something like that?
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Jawbone54
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Dec 11, 2013, 01:26 PM
 
I must be going to Hell...

...because I laughed for a very long time.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Dec 11, 2013, 02:00 PM
 
That guy is a legend!
Mankind's only chance is to harness the power of stupid.
     
Laminar
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Dec 11, 2013, 03:05 PM
 
Pretty sure he just told someone to steal second base.
     
sek929
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Dec 11, 2013, 03:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Pretty sure he just told someone to steal second base.
     
Jawbone54
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Dec 11, 2013, 03:49 PM
 
BAAAAHAHAHAHA
all caps
     
osiris
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Dec 12, 2013, 01:08 PM
 
The interpreter is claiming that he had a schizophrenic moment:

Mandela memorial interpreter asks forgiveness, calls himself champion - CNN.com
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Jawbone54
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Dec 12, 2013, 01:20 PM
 
     
The Final Dakar
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Dec 12, 2013, 01:22 PM
 
He got paid $85.
     
BadKosh
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Dec 12, 2013, 03:41 PM
 
He was doing sign language gibberish while President Obama was speaking? Perhaps he wasn't such a fake?
     
The Final Dakar
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Dec 12, 2013, 03:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
He was doing sign language gibberish while President Obama was speaking? Perhaps he wasn't such a fake?
     
osiris
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Dec 12, 2013, 04:26 PM
 
zing!
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Shaddim
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Dec 12, 2013, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Oh COME ON! You can't still be defending that m*****f*****?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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The Final Dakar
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Dec 12, 2013, 05:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Oh COME ON! You can't still be defending that m*****f*****?
Mocking a joke so bad Leno wouldn't use it is defending Obama? Ok.

Edit: My last thread in PL disproves that hypothesis anyway.
     
subego
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Dec 12, 2013, 05:00 PM
 
I'll defend the idea he talks good.
     
Shaddim
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Dec 12, 2013, 08:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Mocking a joke so bad Leno wouldn't use it is defending Obama? Ok.

Edit: My last thread in PL disproves that hypothesis anyway.
Oh, okay. Fair enough, then.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
ebuddy
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Dec 12, 2013, 09:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Newt Gingrich weighed in on him, and got flak for it:


His rebuttal is quite astute:


I just don't get this knee-jerk reaction to "communism". Or the inability to acknowledge someones achievements outside of differing philosophies. It's been 20 years since the Berlin Wall fell and people seem more spooked by commies now than 10 years ago.

And the PL wonders why I give people shit for throwing around the communism term. If OAWs post is accurate, Mandela was at best a lax communist yet for some people on the right that's enough to make him a revolutionary pariah. I just don't get the hate.

(Cruz got destroyed on facebook as well)
It's a heavy crown. For as many that would regard him nearly messianic, others would castigate him for being human. If you can't respect this man's selfless dedication to cause, you're not being honest with yourself.

On the other hand, those who continue to imply that ideological opposition and related rhetoric has been somehow peculiarly hateful lack any objectivity whatsoever.
ebuddy
     
Shaddim
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Dec 12, 2013, 10:47 PM
 
It's sad that the fake sign interpreter is what most will remember of the man's funeral, not the words that were said.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Laminar
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Dec 13, 2013, 08:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
i'll defend the idea he talks good.
Teleprompter!!
     
The Final Dakar
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Dec 13, 2013, 11:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
It's sad that the fake sign interpreter is what most will remember of the man's funeral, not the words that were said.
That's certainly true in my case; I neither watched nor read about the memorial service.

---

In other news, "According to eNCA, Jantjie [the interpreter] was charged with rape in 1994, theft in 1995, housebreaking in 1997, malicious damage to property in 1998, and murder, attempted murder, and kidnapping in 2003."
     
The Final Dakar
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Dec 13, 2013, 11:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Teleprompter!!
He didn't say he doesn't read good, as well.
     
The Final Dakar
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Dec 13, 2013, 11:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
If you can't respect this man's selfless dedication to cause, you're not being honest with yourself.
If you can't respect that he apparently refused to be released from prison with anything less than a full pardon, you're crazy. How many of us would be delighted to get out for any reason after 27 years?
     
BadKosh
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Dec 13, 2013, 12:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
It's sad that the fake sign interpreter is what most will remember of the man's funeral, not the words that were said.
No. they will be remembering Obama's selfie too.
     
   
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