Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > The Manosphere

The Manosphere
Thread Tools
shifuimam
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The deep backwoods of the PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 03:27 PM
 
I've lately been following this particular subculture and its presence on the Internet.

It seems like the manosphere is the final destination for men who cannot for the life of them find a woman - they try the pick-up artist thing, then they say they're "love-shy", and eventually end up blaming women for all their social ills.

I find it particularly interesting, because this mentality has been gaining some traction with conservative Christians - it provides all kinds of ammunition for why it's okay to believe that a woman belongs nowhere else but barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, so to speak.

Have any of you investigated the Manosphere? Did you find it appealing? Do you know someone who's into it as a way of thinking about life and relationships?
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 03:39 PM
 
From your description they sound like real winners. Brrrr.
     
shifuimam  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The deep backwoods of the PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 04:01 PM
 
It's legitimately scary. I don't think the movement's gained that much traction outside of its followers as a fringe group, at least not yet.
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 04:02 PM
 
Is this a subreddit or something?
     
shifuimam  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The deep backwoods of the PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 04:08 PM
 
Eh?

I'm just curious if anyone else has come across this subculture. It's not new.
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 04:14 PM
 
TIL a new term!
     
shifuimam  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The deep backwoods of the PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 04:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
From your description they sound like real winners. Brrrr.
Also: a lot of manosphere men are married.

Try to wrap your head around that one. I feel bad for their wives.
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 04:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Eh?

I'm just curious if anyone else has come across this subculture. It's not new.
Perhaps some links or some other informative material, so I would know what the hell you're talking about...
     
shifuimam  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The deep backwoods of the PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 04:28 PM
 
Oh, sorry - I didn't know if you were referring to the thread itself or the topic I posted about.

Article on The Guardian about it:

The backlash against feminism aims to preserve the 'manosphere' | Suzanne Moore | Comment is free | The Guardian

And some blogs by religious manosphere members:

Sunshine Mary | Christian, wife, mother, and anti-feminist. "For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." – 1 Corinthians 2:2

Dalrock | Thoughts from a happily married father on a post feminist world.

The religious angle uses the manosphere movement to promote the "wives, submit to your husbands" rule. Women shouldn't have careers, women should get married in their early 20s and start popping out babies, etc.

Proponents also go so far as to assume that if a woman isn't married in her early 20s, she's probably a promiscuous whore, and a woman who has the misfortune of being a single mother probably deserves it (e.g. she made her husband leave her, she had a baby and doesn't know who the father is, etc.).

The non-religious types use it as an excuse for why they can't get women. It's basically the idea that feminism has put women in control of society and men are at their mercy - so now there's a need for an anti-feminism movement to put men back in control.
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 04:38 PM
 
What a bunch of pussies.
     
BLAZE_MkIV
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Nashua NH, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 04:39 PM
 
I haven't encountered this anywhere IRL. Working in high tech in the NE may explain that. I have come across women who want to be independent and equal but want their men to be chivalrous and polite. I've also know some women who prefer to be house wife's.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 04:59 PM
 
I recall something like this a good 20 years ago. It was some author trying to pimp his books though, rather than a religious movement.
     
shifuimam  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The deep backwoods of the PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 05:21 PM
 
Well, it's not all religious.

It's just that religion found its way into it, particularly because Christian men don't want their wives being, you know...independent.

There's a lot in conservative Christianity that promotes a patriarchal mentality.
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
BLAZE_MkIV
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Nashua NH, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 05:37 PM
 
Are you sure its Christians or is it just an ignorant subset?
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 06:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
There's a lot in conservative Christianity that promotes a patriarchal mentality.
You don't say?
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 07:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
Are you sure its Christians or is it just an ignorant subset?
*cough* http://forums.macnn.com/95/political...than-atheists/ *cough*
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 08:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
At least the trolls dropped by and made it entertaining.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 08:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Is this a subreddit or something?
Men's Rights :: Advocating for the social and legal equality of men and boys since 2008

and maybe a little

The Red Pill
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 08:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Proponents also go so far as to assume that if a woman isn't married in her early 20s, she's probably a promiscuous whore.
I think there's a term for that.
     
BLAZE_MkIV
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Nashua NH, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 10:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Stupid is not the same as ignorant.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 11:09 PM
 
I keep reading "manosphere" in Spanglish.
     
shifuimam  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The deep backwoods of the PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 11:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I think there's a term for that.
You really miss the point.

Being unmarried doesn't make you a slut. Being a slut makes you a slut.

I don't even think you're deliberately trying to be this ignorant. It's just coming naturally.
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
shifuimam  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The deep backwoods of the PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 11:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
Are you sure its Christians or is it just an ignorant subset?
Note I never generalized all Christians. I'm just saying that some Christians have found this subculture appealing because of its pro-patriarchy aspects.

Y'all have to stop assuming that everything a person says must be taken as a blanket generalization of everyone everywhere.
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2013, 11:37 PM
 
I think you still don't get what slut shaming is.
     
ebuddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 8, 2013, 10:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I think you still don't get what slut shaming is.
... or what a "generalization" is. For example;
Originally Posted by shifuimam
It's just that religion found its way into it, particularly because Christian men don't want their wives being, you know...independent.
Exhibit A of a generalization. ^

Female Christian leadership has skyrocketed across the country empowering them to be a thorn in the side of all those secular progressives who've given themselves the mantle of "speaking for women" while not generally wanting to hear from them when they're less agreeable.

I've not encountered this "manosphere", but I can tell you that with every new loss in the family court system or their ilk represented as bumbling dolts on TV, and the increasing number of male children drugged for... being male children, this phenomena will likely continue to grow. To be clear, this is not a cause I necessarily champion, but I can see where some embittered men might take to the internet for airing their grievances. Scary you say? I highly doubt it as most are struggling to even identify the "problem".
ebuddy
     
shifuimam  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The deep backwoods of the PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 8, 2013, 05:26 PM
 
Oh for ****'s sake.

I'm not generalizing against all Christians. All I'm saying is that I happen to be reading into the small, fringe subculture of men who are both Christian and interested in what the manosphere promotes.

Jesus Christ. It's gotten to the point here on 'NN that every single thing anyone says is taken as a black-and-white literal with no possible gray area.
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
turtle777
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: planning a comeback !
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 8, 2013, 05:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I think you still don't get what slut shaming is.
At this point, for f@&$ sake, stop making everything about slut shaming.

You come across like a 14 year old teenager who learned a new word. Geez. How obnoxious.

-t
     
shifuimam  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The deep backwoods of the PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 8, 2013, 06:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
At this point, for f@&$ sake, stop making everything about slut shaming.

You come across like a 14 year old teenager who learned a new word. Geez. How obnoxious.

-t


It's not that everything is about slut-shaming; it's that everything is about him. He's just using "slut-shaming" as a vehicle to garner more attention for himself.
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
ebuddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 8, 2013, 07:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Oh for ****'s sake.
I'm not generalizing against all Christians. All I'm saying is that I happen to be reading into the small, fringe subculture of men who are both Christian and interested in what the manosphere promotes.
Originally Posted by shifuimam
It's just that religion found its way into it, particularly because Christian men don't want their wives being, you know...independent.
gen·er·al·i·za·tion
ˌjenərəliˈzāSHən/
noun
1. a general statement or concept obtained by inference from specific cases.
"shifuimam was making sweeping generalizations"

Jesus Christ. It's gotten to the point here on 'NN that every single thing anyone says is taken as a black-and-white literal with no possible gray area.
Look, I'm just trying to elevate 'NN beyond FB spam, where you just assume all 362 of your friends think exactly as you do or would, you know... get what you're saying about those Christian men. I think you're just upset that your statement was read exactly as smarmy as it was delivered. Why wouldn't a self-respecting Christian dude, married to an extremely strong woman not reject such a statement? At some point I think "grey area" becomes a cover for something else entirely.

Hell, maybe I am just getting old and grumpy.
ebuddy
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 8, 2013, 07:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Well, it's not all religious.

It's just that religion found its way into it, particularly because Christian men don't want their wives being, you know...independent.

There's a lot in conservative Christianity that promotes a patriarchal mentality.

Pentecostals are one flavor of Christianity I can see this applying to, what others would you put in this category?
     
shifuimam  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The deep backwoods of the PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 8, 2013, 07:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
gen·er·al·i·za·tion
ˌjenərəliˈzāSHən/
noun
1. a general statement or concept obtained by inference from specific cases.
"shifuimam was making sweeping generalizations"


Look, I'm just trying to elevate 'NN beyond FB spam, where you just assume all 362 of your friends think exactly as you do or would, you know... get what you're saying about those Christian men. I think you're just upset that your statement was read exactly as smarmy as it was delivered. Why wouldn't a self-respecting Christian dude, married to an extremely strong woman not reject such a statement? At some point I think "grey area" becomes a cover for something else entirely.

Hell, maybe I am just getting old and grumpy.
No, it's called reading between the lines.

This goes back to the whole making everything a black-and-white issue and taking everything as a sweeping generalization.

I stated in my original post that this was subculture was gaining some traction with conservative Christians. With that in mind, you should be able to infer that "Christians" references the conservative Christians who subscribe to the ethos of the manosphere.

I shouldn't have to spell it out every. Single. Time.

Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Pentecostals are one flavor of Christianity I can see this applying to, what others would you put in this category?
I don't think it's specific denominations or offshoots.

Conservative Christianity - and for anyone who needs it spelled out, I'm referring to conservative Christianity, as in people who send their kids to Christian school in order to prevent them from being exposed to rock music, sex ed, and science and have a habit of sticking their head in the sand whenever life in the secular world rears its ugly head - as a whole is pretty anti-feminist, and that makes the manosphere (or just parts of it) appealing.

I don't think that all Christians are members of the manosphere. I don't think that all members of the manosphere are Christian. I don't think that most Christians are members of the manosphere. It's still a very fringe group. I hope I've now made that crystal clear for anyone still listening.

I know people IRL (family members) who are into this subculture, which is why I was interested in finding out if anyone else had met anyone IRL who promoted it.
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 8, 2013, 08:07 PM
 
I understand what you are saying Shif, I think you're just getting the usual blowback from people that demand an academic perfection to how a point is expressed before it can be discussed.

There are obviously people like you describe, and I brought up the Pentecostals as example, but I will probably be dinged because I wasn't specific about specifying the fervent practicing Pentecostals who don't want their women wearing skirts that go above their knees and make them grow their hair long. I just wish I could say the "Pentecostals" while given some benefit of the doubt that I don't mean *all* Pentecostals, so we can cut to the chase and actually talk about something. I should probably write stuff with all necessary qualifications and specificity, maybe you should too, but it's just exhausting that after all of my years being here I have to remind people that I'm not some sort of bigot, ya know?
     
shifuimam  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The deep backwoods of the PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 8, 2013, 08:16 PM
 
I'm over it.

If your head is so far up your ass that you feel it necessary to take anything anyone else says in the absolute most literal context possible, you need to step back and re-evaluate how you are engaging others in a social context.

If you feel the need to turn everything into an argument that's simplified down to an either-or, black-and-white viewpoint, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and it's coming out as nonsensical static.

This isn't directed at any one person, by the way. It's directed at anyone who could be placed into either or both of those categories. It's up to you to determine that for yourself.

Also, with regards to the actual topic:

Interestingly enough, I'm finding Christians who are pro-manosphere but aren't of the near-Amish variety, where women can't cut their hair, must wear dresses, cover their heads at all times, and walk three paces behind their husbands in public. It seems to span a broader range of Christian subcategories than that.
( Last edited by shifuimam; Sep 8, 2013 at 08:42 PM. )
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
ebuddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 8, 2013, 09:03 PM
 
I believe it goes beyond that, you guys. I think your general sentiment comes across pretty much as you wanted it to. Shif's statement was a dig on Christians. It was exactly what it was supposed to be. She's been very open about an increasing distaste in some aspects of Christianity and it's coming out in a more blanket generalization. The generality was little more than opportunism.

Shif suggested that the manosphere began as one thing, but has gained traction with Christian men because they don't want their women to be... you know, independent. In what alternate reality is this not at least, socially inept? I called it a generalization because that's what it was. Pure and simple. Don't get all pissed off at me for calling you out on a generalization.
ebuddy
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 8, 2013, 09:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I believe it goes beyond that, you guys. I think your general sentiment comes across pretty much as you wanted it to. Shif's statement was a dig on Christians. It was exactly what it was supposed to be. She's been very open about an increasing distaste in some aspects of Christianity and it's coming out in a more blanket generalization. The generality was little more than opportunism.

Shif suggested that the manosphere began as one thing, but has gained traction with Christian men because they don't want their women to be... you know, independent. In what alternate reality is this not at least, socially inept? I called it a generalization because that's what it was. Pure and simple. Don't get all pissed off at me for calling you out on a generalization.

Why do you assume the worst in people this way, and then get pissy when people insinuate things about you you don't like?
     
ebuddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 9, 2013, 07:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Why do you assume the worst in people this way, and then get pissy when people insinuate things about you you don't like?
I don't assume the worst in people. I'm judging their posts. Aren't your posts a reflection of your perception on a given matter? Was there anything particularly reprehensible about me calling a generalization, a generalization? I'm not judging shif the person or agnostic women in general, I was judging her post which was judging Christian men in general.
ebuddy
     
shifuimam  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The deep backwoods of the PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 9, 2013, 09:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I believe it goes beyond that, you guys. I think your general sentiment comes across pretty much as you wanted it to. Shif's statement was a dig on Christians. It was exactly what it was supposed to be. She's been very open about an increasing distaste in some aspects of Christianity and it's coming out in a more blanket generalization. The generality was little more than opportunism.

Shif suggested that the manosphere began as one thing, but has gained traction with Christian men because they don't want their women to be... you know, independent. In what alternate reality is this not at least, socially inept? I called it a generalization because that's what it was. Pure and simple. Don't get all pissed off at me for calling you out on a generalization.
No, I said it's been gaining traction with Conservative Christians.

What you could do, instead of getting offended and assuming it's a sweeping generalization, is take it as "okay, so she's talking about the conservative Christians who find the patriarchal aspects of this movement appealing" instead of "okay, she's claiming that all Christians everywhere are pro-manosphere".

I'm not going to spell out every single thing every single time as explicitly as possible, because I assume the people participating in the discussion are smarter than that.

Not everything is an attack on you, your beliefs, your demographic, your social circle, your political views, or your religion. I promise.
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 9, 2013, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I don't assume the worst in people. I'm judging their posts. Aren't your posts a reflection of your perception on a given matter? Was there anything particularly reprehensible about me calling a generalization, a generalization? I'm not judging shif the person or agnostic women in general, I was judging her post which was judging Christian men in general.

Same thing. When people judge your posts and make deductions about your perceptions you seem to become annoyed.
     
ebuddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 10, 2013, 09:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Same thing. When people judge your posts and make deductions about your perceptions you seem to become annoyed.
That's not true. I'm pretty easy to admit fault and apologize swiftly when I've been unfair to someone. I'm not going to keep beating the point up, but I don't feel that's the case here. I didn't query her disposition or attack her personally. I cited the statement, expressed my distaste for it, and that's all I had intended to do. I understand shif's not happy with me right now, but I have zero issues with her personally or her worldview. We'll be fine, but I appreciate your concern.
ebuddy
     
shifuimam  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The deep backwoods of the PNW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 11, 2013, 12:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
That's not true. I'm pretty easy to admit fault and apologize swiftly when I've been unfair to someone. I'm not going to keep beating the point up, but I don't feel that's the case here. I didn't query her disposition or attack her personally. I cited the statement, expressed my distaste for it, and that's all I had intended to do. I understand shif's not happy with me right now, but I have zero issues with her personally or her worldview. We'll be fine, but I appreciate your concern.
I'm not pissed at you. The people I have problems with are those who drive-by troll or just take giant craps on my posts for the sake of the smell of their own shit.

More than anything I'm just kind of over the attitude that has overtaken this community as a whole. Everything degenerates into arguing, everything is taken to an extreme, nothing is seen as a spectrum of options but instead as two polar opposites. There must be something in the water around here...
Sell or send me your vintage Mac things if you don't want them.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 11, 2013, 03:45 AM
 
I blame the PWL.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 11, 2013, 06:13 AM
 
I blame Huddler.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 11, 2013, 07:13 AM
 
     
   
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:01 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,