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Web browsing on Mac and PC
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Metzen
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
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Dec 24, 2002, 04:55 AM
 
Ok, this is not meant to be started as a flame thread but more for honest opinion and observations.

First off, a little background on the computers I have at my disposal:
Code:
iMac DVSE 400MHz/512MB RAM/15Gb 5400RPM/Mac OS X (10.2.3) iMac DVSE 400MHz/512MB RAM/40Gb 7200RPM/Mac OS X (10.2.3) Blue&White450MHz/768MB RAM/15GB 5400RPM ATA, 10GB 10,000RPM Cheetah SCSI/Mac OS X (10.2.3) Celeron PC333MHz/128MB RAM/13GB 4500RPM/Windows 2000 Professional Pentium PC450MHz/256MB RAM/15GB 5400RPM/Windows 2000 Professional AMD K6-2PC400MHz/128MB RAM/6GB 5400RPM/Windows 98SE AMD Athlon800MHz/768MB DDR (200MHz) RAM/60GB 7200RPM/Windows XP Professional
All Mac's are running Chimera Nightly Dec 21st build.
All PC's have the latest version of Internet Explorer and Phoenix installed.

Ok, now for a few observations:
  • The PC's cream the Mac's running OS X at CaffineMark
  • The PC's choke on opening up multiple window's in either IE or Phoenix
  • Typing is atrosiously slow on the Mac compared to the PC (but not unusable, just lags were as the PC's are instantaneous)
  • Phoenix on the PC feels bloated or crippled compared to IE (renders fast, but in general is sluggish, loads slow, multiple windows bog it down quickly, java feels "forced", causes OS to not respond if loading long complex pages, etc. are the more noticeable ones)
  • Flash is quick on the PC compared to the Mac
  • Shockwave is quick on the PC compared to the Mac

Generally, these are the things that I've noticed most when comparing the two different operating systems ways for browsing the internet.

Overall, I'd say that by just looking at my list Internet Explorer on the PC is the optimal browsing solution... But it's not. I've found it's flaws far out weigh the OS integration. First off, I feel Chimera is an excellent example of how a brower should be. It incorporates well with the operating system, uses roughly 10%-17% of resources unless it's hidden (then it uses 1.2% static) which allows me to keep it on.

*RANT RANT RANT*

Anyways, I guess the only reason(s) I hate IE for web browsing are:

Poor ability to handle multiple windows
Crashes easily when viewing 6 or more windows (and I've only noticed this happens to me, but it's happened on every PC I touch)
Pop Ups <period> (yes, I'm using the awesome, free, PopUpKiller [available on sourceforge.net])

Mostly the first 2 cause me the most headaches. Chimera was poor with multiple windows after 0.6 came out (Nov. 4 build) as is evidenced by my crash logs, but after 8 or so hours of surfing (with Dec 21st build), not one crash.

I'm lovin' it.

And, yes, IE crashed hard on me today when trying to login to a (homebrew) FTP site with only a username and no password requiring a restart to restore functionality. BTW, the FTP site worked perfectly on the Mac (Finder and Chimera), but killed all IE's. (Odds are it's a IE 6 issue, but I'm not going to go through the painful process of "reinstalling" the older version of IE on the machines that will take it just to see if it's IE 6).

**DISCLAIMER**
In no way was I trying to be biased in these reviews, these were my thoughts and/or opinions of the subject at hand. You may see it that I was simply trying to justify an inferior product/position, and you may be right, or may be you're trying to justify an inferior product or position, but all that matters is the opinion at hand.
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.
E. F. Schumacher
     
Sharky K.
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Europe
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Dec 24, 2002, 11:25 AM
 
I also have a mac and pc (both laptop). I used IE for a while, it is fast but the UI is really crap. For example you have to type everytime: www and .com it doesn't finish anything. I also noticed the window ads etc... with mozilla you can easily disable it. Also Mozilla has an optional iCal application (the only one on the windows platform I know of)

I have also more render problems with IE than with Mozilla, strange but true.

btw the download manager from IE is also ancient. (same for chimera)
     
ncube
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Join Date: May 2001
Location: Dallas, Tx U.S.A
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Dec 25, 2002, 01:17 AM
 
Is it me or do popup ads really ruin the browsing experience in Internet Explorer on the PC. Sometimes it seems like you don't even have control of your own computer. My parents have a PC and I hate browsing with Internet Explorer and I refuse to install the bloatware known as Netscape Communicator.

Overall I enjoy browsing on my Mac even if it's a little slower/ I save time not having to close a whole bunch of ad windows.

I wonder if Apple has plans to intergrate the Gecko Rendering Engine into Mac OS X somehow. Are there any legal barriers? If not I think it would be a great idea.
     
TheIceMan
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Join Date: Dec 2002
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Dec 25, 2002, 02:48 AM
 
I have enjoyed the Mac experience since "switching" in late Sept.2002. I don't want to get into a debate about PC vs. Mac. But my PC seemed more responsive when using IE or Netscape. And yes, without some sort of popup blockers for ads, man you just feel like you're attacked on some sites. For the Mac, I'm using OmniWeb as my main browser, mainly because I like to look at it. Unfortunately, OmniWeb doesn't load up some of my sites properly, esp. those involving "javascripts." My ideal browser for the MAc would have the looks of OmniWeb and the speed & reliability of Chimera (they're making Chimera more reliable each day). It may just be my imagination, but I'm alot more comfortable using my Mac than I was using my PC. I don't know if buying "Mac OSX: The Missing Manual" was the reason, but I feel alot more confident tweaking/changing and updating my Mac than I ever did with my PC. So, for me, the web browsing experience has been better with my Mac. And I credit that to the beautiful OSX.
     
juanvaldes
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Dec 25, 2002, 03:53 AM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:

[*]Typing is atrosiously slow on the Mac compared to the PC (but not unusable, just lags were as the PC's are instantaneous)
not to nit-pick but this is a chimera only problem. And the developers are very aware of it and are figuring out a solution. I hope it will be replaced by 1.0, but who knows.

Personally I don't see the huge difference in browsing speeds the some people claim.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive.
- Thomas Jefferson, 1787
     
Metzen  (op)
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta
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Dec 25, 2002, 03:28 PM
 
Originally posted by juanvaldes:
not to nit-pick but this is a chimera only problem. And the developers are very aware of it and are figuring out a solution. I hope it will be replaced by 1.0, but who knows.
They actually already fixed the main cause of the slowdown. If you can download a Chimera build pre-0.4 you'll see achingly slow typing.

If I remember correctly it was because Chimera was rendering everything in the textbox, not just the text you were typing.

After that, typing is more than descent, but still slower than IE on Windows.
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.
E. F. Schumacher
     
juanvaldes
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Dec 25, 2002, 04:41 PM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
They actually already fixed the main cause of the slowdown. If you can download a Chimera build pre-0.4 you'll see achingly slow typing.

If I remember correctly it was because Chimera was rendering everything in the textbox, not just the text you were typing.

After that, typing is more than descent, but still slower than IE on Windows.
I started using chimera at .5 and ditched OW at .6, it's still doing more then it should, it's slower then IE, OW on my mac that's for sure.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive.
- Thomas Jefferson, 1787
     
Millennium
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Dec 26, 2002, 10:09 AM
 
Originally posted by juanvaldes:
I started using chimera at .5 and ditched OW at .6, it's still doing more then it should, it's slower then IE, OW on my mac that's for sure.
The major Chimera developers recognize that textareas are their biggest performance problem at the moment.

Unfortunately, to fix it requires some pretty major changes to Gecko itself (the problems also show up in Mozilla, Netscape, and Isotope). While there was talk of fixing this during the switch to XBL-based form controls for Gecko, that project has also been sidelined for the time being.

So for the time being, no one seems to really be sure when this is going to get resolved. I would guess that it almost certainly won't happen until Chimera updates to a recent Gecko. Even then, the big changes will probably have to be made after that.
You are in Soviet Russia. It is dark. Grue is likely to be eaten by YOU!
     
Metzen  (op)
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta
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Dec 31, 2002, 04:09 AM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
The major Chimera developers recognize that textareas are their biggest performance problem at the moment.
Downloading the latest Chimera nightly build, the text areas are now as fast as in other applications like TextEdit.

If I get a chance I'll post a video to illustrate the difference; it's huge.

Chimera has just moved up one huge notch.
Download the 12/30 nightly here.
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.
E. F. Schumacher
     
Sven G
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Dec 31, 2002, 07:35 AM
 
The 12/30 build also has the new download (manager) window, BTW (see another thread)...

The freedom of all is essential to my freedom. - Mikhail Bakunin
     
El Magnificante
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Dec 31, 2002, 03:45 PM
 
Originally posted by Sharky K.:
I also have a mac and pc (both laptop). I used IE for a while, it is fast but the UI is really crap. For example you have to type everytime: www and .com it doesn't finish anything. (same for chimera)
In the PC world you can do the following shortcut: Say you are going to www.macnn.com (who wouldn't?), all you have to do is type:

macnn in the address
then hit Ctrl/Enter

It adds the www. and .com

If you already knew this and were referring above to Mac annoyances, disregard this post.

El Mag
     
Peter
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Dec 31, 2002, 04:32 PM
 
The only PC browser I can use is Opera. Chimera 0.6.0 is the ultimate browser, its fast, looks good and stable. And if you make it 'brushed' you have the real Mac browser
we don't have time to stop for gas
     
Angus_D
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Dec 31, 2002, 05:49 PM
 
Originally posted by El Magnificante:
In the PC world you can do the following shortcut: Say you are going to www.macnn.com (who wouldn't?), all you have to do is type:

macnn in the address
then hit Ctrl/Enter

It adds the www. and .com
In Chimera, if you type macnn in the address field and hit return, it adds the www. and .com. What's your point?
     
El Magnificante
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Paris, France
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Dec 31, 2002, 06:59 PM
 
Originally posted by Angus_D:
What's your point?
Read Sharky K.'s post and you'll know.

El Mag
     
KidRed
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Florida
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Dec 31, 2002, 08:42 PM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
Ok, this is not meant to be started as a flame thread but more for honest opinion and observations.

First off, a little background on the computers I have at my disposal:
Code:
iMac DVSE 400MHz/512MB RAM/15Gb 5400RPM/Mac OS X (10.2.3) iMac DVSE 400MHz/512MB RAM/40Gb 7200RPM/Mac OS X (10.2.3) Blue&White450MHz/768MB RAM/15GB 5400RPM ATA, 10GB 10,000RPM Cheetah SCSI/Mac OS X (10.2.3) Celeron PC333MHz/128MB RAM/13GB 4500RPM/Windows 2000 Professional Pentium PC450MHz/256MB RAM/15GB 5400RPM/Windows 2000 Professional AMD K6-2PC400MHz/128MB RAM/6GB 5400RPM/Windows 98SE AMD Athlon800MHz/768MB DDR (200MHz) RAM/60GB 7200RPM/Windows XP Professional
All Mac's are running Chimera Nightly Dec 21st build.
All PC's have the latest version of Internet Explorer and Phoenix installed.

Ok, now for a few observations:
  • The PC's cream the Mac's running OS X at CaffineMark
  • The PC's choke on opening up multiple window's in either IE or Phoenix
  • Typing is atrosiously slow on the Mac compared to the PC (but not unusable, just lags were as the PC's are instantaneous)
  • Phoenix on the PC feels bloated or crippled compared to IE (renders fast, but in general is sluggish, loads slow, multiple windows bog it down quickly, java feels "forced", causes OS to not respond if loading long complex pages, etc. are the more noticeable ones)
  • Flash is quick on the PC compared to the Mac
  • Shockwave is quick on the PC compared to the Mac

Generally, these are the things that I've noticed most when comparing the two different operating systems ways for browsing the internet.

Overall, I'd say that by just looking at my list Internet Explorer on the PC is the optimal browsing solution... But it's not. I've found it's flaws far out weigh the OS integration. First off, I feel Chimera is an excellent example of how a brower should be. It incorporates well with the operating system, uses roughly 10%-17% of resources unless it's hidden (then it uses 1.2% static) which allows me to keep it on.

*RANT RANT RANT*

Anyways, I guess the only reason(s) I hate IE for web browsing are:

Poor ability to handle multiple windows
Crashes easily when viewing 6 or more windows (and I've only noticed this happens to me, but it's happened on every PC I touch)
Pop Ups <period> (yes, I'm using the awesome, free, PopUpKiller [available on sourceforge.net])

Mostly the first 2 cause me the most headaches. Chimera was poor with multiple windows after 0.6 came out (Nov. 4 build) as is evidenced by my crash logs, but after 8 or so hours of surfing (with Dec 21st build), not one crash.

I'm lovin' it.

And, yes, IE crashed hard on me today when trying to login to a (homebrew) FTP site with only a username and no password requiring a restart to restore functionality. BTW, the FTP site worked perfectly on the Mac (Finder and Chimera), but killed all IE's. (Odds are it's a IE 6 issue, but I'm not going to go through the painful process of "reinstalling" the older version of IE on the machines that will take it just to see if it's IE 6).

**DISCLAIMER**
In no way was I trying to be biased in these reviews, these were my thoughts and/or opinions of the subject at hand. You may see it that I was simply trying to justify an inferior product/position, and you may be right, or may be you're trying to justify an inferior product or position, but all that matters is the opinion at hand.
I'd try the same comparrison on a G4, even a G4 450 would do better then any G3 you used.
All Your Signature Are Belong To Us!
     
   
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