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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Notebooks > Could be HOT DEAL on Apple computers Ti 667 for ~$1800

Could be HOT DEAL on Apple computers Ti 667 for ~$1800
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soonbaek
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Nov 7, 2001, 03:07 PM
 
Hi,

I've shamelessly rip this from AnandTech Forums

Basically, there is this website J.C. Morris & Company is taking a pre-order for various Apple computer for amazing price. They even have 20% coupon code!!! (Coupon location)

I was wondering if anyone here had purchased products from them before... As stated on AnandTech Forums (i think it's still the last post) there is a various "fraud protection" totaling upto $1425

Please share your experience with them. I would love to get my hands on the TiBook and move away from Windows

TIA
     
Eug
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Nov 7, 2001, 03:56 PM
 
I wouldn't touch this with a 1000 foot pole.
     
druber
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Nov 7, 2001, 04:06 PM
 
yeah, looks pretty shady to me. try calling your local better business bureau and see what you can find out. i'd love for them to be legit. the 'extra 15% off if you prepay' sounds like a scam six ways to sunday, IMHO. let us know what you find out, huh?
Help find a cure for Malaria: crunch D2OL for Team Macnn.
     
<OhMan>
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Nov 7, 2001, 04:15 PM
 
Come on guys, the coupon code is "September11" and this is one of those stupid "Yahoo! Shops". I can start my own Yahoo! shop and put reassuring photos of self-confident middle-aged men on it. Want a new iBook? I'll let you preorder one for 500$ and send it in 2010, when I'll be able to fetch used ones for 20$ a piece.
     
soonbaek  (op)
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Nov 7, 2001, 04:31 PM
 
Originally posted by druber:
<STRONG>yeah, looks pretty shady to me. try calling your local better business bureau and see what you can find out. i'd love for them to be legit. the 'extra 15% off if you prepay' sounds like a scam six ways to sunday, IMHO. let us know what you find out, huh?</STRONG>
Actually, there is a 20% off coupon using "Yahoo"

Interesting enough, they are two people who ordered from them and actually received refund and some extra cash.

I guess it's too good to be true...

Well, thanks again and if anyone has dealt with them before, please share your experience
AnandTech Forums (user Atomic and noneother)

[ 11-07-2001: Message edited by: soonbaek ]
     
Eug
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Nov 7, 2001, 05:11 PM
 
Well, actually one person got a check. The other person was told he would get one, but hasn't yet.

Either way, the testimonies of the others confirm that this place is not to be trusted. Sure give one guy a bit extra money back, and scam 6 others...
     
soonbaek  (op)
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Nov 7, 2001, 05:14 PM
 
I just spoke with Jim Morris. I called 4:01PM EST just when they're closing. He promised me that if I order a Apple product either today or tomorrow, it will be shipped on first week of December.

I did also ask him about accepting Paypal and not CC directly. He claims that there was too many fraud within last 6 month to accept CC. Also, he assures me the using Paypal, I would have double protection. Not only could I file complaint to Paypal, but also to my CC company. Is this true? I'm going to talk to my CC company tonight.

Anyone know how safe Paypal is? I know that they offer around $250 protection but that's not nearly enough. Usually the CC companies offre standard fraud protection where we are liable for $50 deductable.

Anyways, I'm dying to move on to the Apple product but found them to be just too expensive (I know, I know, they're awesome... but I just don't have that much cash to spend)

Thanks everyone.

Oh, if anyone is interested, Mr. Morris told me that only Sony FX290 is delayed due to new model coming out... or something to that nature.
     
Eug
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Nov 7, 2001, 05:19 PM
 
I hate to say it, but if you go ahead now with the purchase, with all the information you have about them, you deserve to get scammed.
     
Retrograde
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Nov 7, 2001, 06:22 PM
 
Man, all I can say is duck and hide!

If you are really interested in checking out the Mac platform there are plenty of excellent secondhand macs out there to be purchased at good prices and some are refurbished with warranties as well. I know that the prospect of a new Ti is almost irresistible but it is perhaps best to lay low on this one and play it cool. My 2 cents...
Ceci n'est pas une pomme. Magritte
     
murbot
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Nov 7, 2001, 08:05 PM
 
Do not count on PayPal. I am in the middle of an eBay scam right now, and it is my credit card company who is doing the work for me. It looks like it will be alright, but PayPal doesn't do squat.

If you use PayPal, USE A CREDIT CARD. Do NOT do a funds transfer from a bank account. You're on your own otherwise.

Check out this email I received from PayPal complaining about getting ripped off on eBay:

&lt;snip&gt;

PayPal has concluded the investigation of your buyer complaint.
As our policy states, we conducted this investigation on a best
effort basis and made no guarantee of funds recovery.

Case ID: xxxxxx
Transaction Date: 10/03/01
Transaction Amount: $1,230.00
Seller's Email: [email protected]
Seller's Name: Dan Zappin

Our investigation has revealed that the seller is at fault; as
a result you are due a refund. However, we regret to inform
you that we were unable to recover funds from the sellers account,
as the seller's account balance is $0. If this transaction occurred
on an auction site, we encourage you to contact that auction site,
as they may provide you with insurance coverage.

We value your business and regret that you have had this experience.
To avoid similar experiences in the future, we recommend that you
read our Security Tips on our website located at: http:///cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/fra...ention-outside

Sincerely,
Laurie
PayPal Complaint Resolution Department

&lt;snip&gt;


Notice I didn't hide the scumbag asshole's name and email address.
................
     
GK
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Nov 7, 2001, 08:33 PM
 
I wouldn't even order a toothbrush from those guys. Their website looks too shady, the pocs are almost ridiculous. To top it all, they have this 'September 11' offer. :o

To the guy who wants to buy stuff from them, yuou have been warned, and don't come back complaining that you have been scammed, and that it's Apple's fault for not better screening their resellers. I would only buy from Apple certified resellers.
     
mikeT
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Nov 7, 2001, 08:36 PM
 
There's just no way this could be legitimate. What possible reason would they have for selling a 667 at such a ridiculously low price when they could just as easily sell it for hundreds of dollars more?
I'm all for looking for the best possible deal, but this is a joke. It's as if someone is offering to sell you a brand new BMW for $5000. They just wouldn't do it unless it's some kind of scam.
     
grand illusion
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Nov 7, 2001, 08:40 PM
 
if it sounds to good to be true...it more than likely is...

or else it's grey market...

[ 11-07-2001: Message edited by: grand illusion ]
They're coming to take me away, ha-haa!!! To the funny farm, where life is beautiful all the time...
     
soonbaek  (op)
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Nov 7, 2001, 09:22 PM
 
Originally posted by murbot:
<STRONG>Do not count on PayPal. I am in the middle of an eBay scam right now, and it is my credit card company who is doing the work for me. It looks like it will be alright, but PayPal doesn't do squat.

If you use PayPal, USE A CREDIT CARD. Do NOT do a funds transfer from a bank account. You're on your own otherwise.

</STRONG>
Wow! Sorry to hear this murbot... Yeah, it looks like it's TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE.

I did speak with my CC company (Citibank) and they assure me they're going to investigate and I'll only be liable for $50 (unless I lost the card and didn't report in). Would I be crazy enough to gamble $50???

Although, they do sell some items at Yahoo! Auction and are getting positive feedback... Unless that's a scam as well. I almost got a Ti667 from them through Yahoo! Auction which ended last night for $2125

Thanks all for feedback and comments!!! I promise if I do place an order, I won't be crying back
     
SamGrinter
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Nov 7, 2001, 11:44 PM
 
If anyone does or has fallen for this go to:

g2MDPH

-sam-
     
SamGrinter
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Nov 7, 2001, 11:47 PM
 
oh I am stupid, I forgot what was on my paste board, I ment to provide the link:

https://www.ifccfbi.gov/

(g2MDPH is my login password )
     
SamGrinter
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Nov 7, 2001, 11:50 PM
 
and yes, I changed my password!
     
Matsu
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Nov 8, 2001, 10:56 AM
 
MURBOT!!!

You got ripped off for over $1200. What did you try to buy? I dabbled in abay for a bit but I realized that for many expensive items most of the sellers are unwilling to go through any e-escrow type services. I decided the risk of getting burned was too high. Someone needs to develop a cheap third party COD system specifically for internet transactions. This way, delivery arrives at door (or post office), the courier/clerk accepts cash and issues a reciept and everyone's happy (unless the goods don't work )
Apple: bumping prices, not specs.
     
seanyepez
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Nov 8, 2001, 11:39 AM
 
I bought my PowerBook G4/667 with a 30-gigabyte hard drive and 512 megabytes of RAM for $2,199. ($800 off) If you're getting the 667-megahertz model for less than Apple employees do, something is off.

With the money I saved, I'm ordering a 60-gigabyte IBM TravelStar drive.
     
soonbaek  (op)
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Nov 8, 2001, 11:52 AM
 
Originally posted by seanyepez:
<STRONG>I bought my PowerBook G4/667 with a 30-gigabyte hard drive and 512 megabytes of RAM for $2,199. ($800 off) If you're getting the 667-megahertz model for less than Apple employees do, something is off.

With the money I saved, I'm ordering a 60-gigabyte IBM TravelStar drive. </STRONG>

I knew I should have worked for Apple!!! Damn.

seanyepez, do Apple offer a program where employees helps to sell a system, not only could buyer buy it at a discount price but the seller (employee) would get some benefit?? IBM has something like this, and I think it's called EPP (Someone correct me if I'm wrong)
     
<rickey939>
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Nov 8, 2001, 03:36 PM
 
Well, I found out after talking with them that they will accept PO's from a University....which SHOCKED me because now they have to deliver the goods before I pay them....hmmmmmm
     
soonbaek  (op)
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Nov 8, 2001, 07:11 PM
 
Originally posted by &lt;rickey939&gt;:
<STRONG>Well, I found out after talking with them that they will accept PO's from a University....which SHOCKED me because now they have to deliver the goods before I pay them....hmmmmmm</STRONG>
rickey939, what's a PO? PO Box? How does that help not pre-pay??

If they have to deliver the goods before I pay, what the hell, I'll order them right now!!!

TIA

[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: soonbaek ]
     
murbot
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Nov 8, 2001, 07:41 PM
 
Originally posted by Matsu:
<STRONG>MURBOT!!!

You got ripped off for over $1200. What did you try to buy? I dabbled in abay for a bit but I realized that for many expensive items most of the sellers are unwilling to go through any e-escrow type services. I decided the risk of getting burned was too high. Someone needs to develop a cheap third party COD system specifically for internet transactions. This way, delivery arrives at door (or post office), the courier/clerk accepts cash and issues a reciept and everyone's happy (unless the goods don't work )</STRONG>

Yep, me and about 60 other people I've found out afterwards. We've even started a mailing list between us. I just got an email today actually from a lady with the FBI Internet Fraud Complaint Center, getting information together from all the victims of this guy (or guys).

These guys are going down hard, they know who they are, and are building a case right now. This has the makings of being the biggest eBay fraud EVER. At last count, he ran auctions totalling about $140,000 US, and every day we're finding about people who sent him money outside of eBay. I have a feeling you'll be seeing these guys in the news soon....

I'm pretty sure from talking with my CC company that I'm covered though. It was for an iBook. I knew the price was too good to be true... lesson learned I guess - the hard way.

We also found out (afterwards) that these guys work for CrapTV. Their names are Dan Zappin and Matt Potter. If anyone is dealing with these guys right now (and we KNOW they are still selling) get the hell out!!!
................
     
<rickey939>
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Nov 8, 2001, 07:57 PM
 
PO = Purchase Order

How can I lose by doing that? I would get the goods from them first before making any payment? It's worth a shot.
     
<Ladawri>
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Nov 8, 2001, 08:40 PM
 
When looking at their site you will find the following Disclaimer:

Customers who purchase products in the preorder section at J.C. Morris & Company will receive information directly from J.C. Morris & Company regarding their advertising and marketing services for up to one year. Customers are not required to purchase any advertising or marketing services sent to them by J.C. Morris & Company

This is a very broad statement and could mean anything. It is probably how they make money if this is legit.

They could send you advertising or marketing services (could be many things) and if you don't respond in a certain amount of time you owe money. Thats only one example and it is how CD companies make money on deals like 10 CD's for $.01

If this company is legit they have to be making money in some way and I think the above disclaimer is the key. If you buy from them be prepared to be on your toes for the next year.

Can anyone think of any other interesting things that would fit within that disclaimer?
     
<rickey939>
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Nov 8, 2001, 08:49 PM
 
They told me they can do this the following way (in summary)...

"We can offer these prices, by doing the marketing and advertising and promotions for distributors, manufacturers, etc...and in doing so, they offer to us these steep discounts in return."

Sounds odd I know.....
     
seanyepez
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Nov 8, 2001, 08:50 PM
 
If you don't have to buy anything from them, I don't think it's that bad getting spam and junk mail.
     
PookJP
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Nov 8, 2001, 11:05 PM
 
This is really shaping up to be quite interesting. Now all we need is for someone to take the dive to find out just how deep this pool is...

Incidentally....

mikeT said:
I'm all for looking for the best possible deal, but this is a joke. It's as if someone is offering to sell you a brand new BMW for $5000. They just wouldn't do it unless it's some kind of scam.
Funny you should mention this specific example. My parents visited me at college a few months ago, and afterward drove up to Maine. There, they saw a couple driving a fabulous new Z8. Being car enthusiasts, they approached the owners to talk about the car. It turns out the guy has a source at BMW Germany that allows him to buy Z8s wholesale (around $60,000). The car itself, I might add, retails at $128,000, but you'll be hard pressed to find one for under $200,000. Well, this guy sells them to buyers in America for around $85,000. He's still making a huge profit, but is undercutting all the dealers. Needless to say, he has no trouble finding buyers.

So this got me thinking... it's possible that an expensive, premium good can be sold for less than "what's possible."

I must add, however, that I don't believe the site in question. That picture is just too much; the owner probably typed "professional male" into the Google picture search engine. And a Yahoo! store? Gimme a break.

- Pook
It's the devil's way now.
     
soonbaek  (op)
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Nov 8, 2001, 11:24 PM
 
Originally posted by &lt;rickey939&gt;:
<STRONG>PO = Purchase Order

How can I lose by doing that? I would get the goods from them first before making any payment? It's worth a shot.</STRONG>
I don't mean to sound like an idiot and keep bothering you with this but... How does purchase order work? the definition I got is "purchase order: Written authorization for a supplier to ship products at a specified price, which becomes a legally binding contract once the supplier accepts it." But I still don't understand. Also, does school offer PO?

Thanks again rickey939!
     
<rickey939>
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Nov 9, 2001, 12:08 AM
 
My university pays for things via a Purchase Order...where we fill out the order and mail to the supplier...the supplier then mails us the goods and bills us at a later date so we pay after getting the goods.

Hope that makes sense...

I'll see what happens and if we actually get a product since nothing can happen to me doing a PO.
     
soonbaek  (op)
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Nov 9, 2001, 12:25 AM
 
Originally posted by &lt;rickey939&gt;:
<STRONG>My university pays for things via a Purchase Order...where we fill out the order and mail to the supplier...the supplier then mails us the goods and bills us at a later date so we pay after getting the goods.

Hope that makes sense...

I'll see what happens and if we actually get a product since nothing can happen to me doing a PO.</STRONG>
Thanks rickey939, it makes sense. BTW, where is your school?? Could it be in NYS or PA by any chance???
     
<rickey939>
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Nov 9, 2001, 12:36 AM
 
Kansas State University!

GO WILDCATS!!

Like I said before, I'll keep you posted after I place a PO order with them.
     
mikeT
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Nov 9, 2001, 12:39 AM
 
Originally posted by PookJP:
<STRONG> It turns out the guy has a source at BMW Germany that allows him to buy Z8s wholesale (around $60,000). The car itself, I might add, retails at $128,000, but you'll be hard pressed to find one for under $200,000. Well, this guy sells them to buyers in America for around $85,000. He's still making a huge profit, but is undercutting all the dealers. Needless to say, he has no trouble finding buyers.

So this got me thinking... it's possible that an expensive, premium good can be sold for less than "what's possible."

</STRONG>
If there's a wide gap between the sales price and the fair market value, someone has made a mistake or something is fishy.
A thief might sell a Rolex for $100. Of course, the thief understands that $100 is not the true market value of the watch, but he's still willing to take it. Why? Well, at some level, the thief understands that he is not a legitimate seller of the item and cannot expect to get the market price.
If the market price for Z8s really is $200k, this guy would not be selling them for $85k if he were a legitimate businessman. No one just lets $115k slip away. The guy might really be delivering Z8s for $85k, but that doesn't mean he's doing it legitimately. At minimum, he's probably breaching a contract or looking the other way while his source in Germany breaches its contract. This BMW importer knows that he is the likely target of a lawsuit from BMW and/or its dealers. He is willing to sell below market value because he understands that he is not a legitimate operator.
     
absmiths
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Nov 9, 2001, 11:01 AM
 
Originally posted by mikeT:
<STRONG>

If there's a wide gap between the sales price and the fair market value, someone has made a mistake or something is fishy.
</STRONG>
That happened to my dad - he bought a BMW back in '83 for a really good deal, then he got hit by customs later and had to pay a penalty because the car had never had its' emissions controls installed and the car had some other import modifications that he had to pay for. Bottom line, he had to pay about $3000 of what would have been paid for by the dealer - not to mention the trouble he went through. Wasn't such a great deal after all that...
     
MacManDanT
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Nov 9, 2001, 11:35 AM
 
When looking at their site you will find the following Disclaimer:

Customers who purchase products in the preorder section at J.C. Morris & Company will receive information directly from J.C. Morris & Company regarding their advertising and marketing services for up to one year. Customers are not required to purchase any advertising or marketing services sent to them by J.C. Morris & Company

This is a very broad statement and could mean anything. It is probably how they make money if this is legit.

They could send you advertising or marketing services (could be many things) and if you don't respond in a certain amount of time you owe money. Thats only one example and it is how CD companies make money on deals like 10 CD's for $.01 Come on guys, this statement has "lets include a disclaimer that would make people think we are ligit" written all over it. There is no way that these people can recover $500-800 loss on each product it sells through sending junk mail to its recipients. Most people reach a maximum value of $20 for marketing purposes... Also I can garuntee Apple isn't supplying these jokers with bargain basement prices on their laptops. In fact if they are selling them at this price (new) I'm sure Apple will be contacting them shortly.

Another reader noted that by not putting a restriction on time frame for shipping, this company could take your fund and end up shipping you one a year or two from now when the price on the comp has dropped below that price - making them a profit and interest on your money.... Anyway any of you willing to lose your money and/or sanity for a computer should go ahead and give this a shot....
     
MacManDanT
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Nov 9, 2001, 11:37 AM
 
And now I look like a complete ass because I don't know how to use the quote tags
     
romeosc
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Nov 9, 2001, 05:08 PM
 
The scam is like all ponzi scams. Some people receive "100 % per month return on investment" so others fall for scam and continue paying until the scam artist declares bancruptcy or leaves the country with "your" money!


If it sounds too good to be true it is!
     
mithral
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Nov 10, 2001, 07:36 PM
 
New topic in the lounge, dealing with this issue.

(Link)


-mithral

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: mithral ]
Curse you, El Macho!
     
murbot
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Nov 10, 2001, 07:49 PM
 
*phew*

Great news, my chargeback went through on my credit card. I got the $2000 CDN credited to my account.

Thank you MasterCard!!

................
     
Matsu
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Nov 10, 2001, 08:05 PM
 
Murbot,

Who protected you? Was it the party that you were dealing with that squared everything up, or did MasterCard reimburse your credit through some kind of consumer protection insurance???
Apple: bumping prices, not specs.
     
murbot
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Nov 10, 2001, 11:35 PM
 
It was MasterCard reimbursing me for the funds. I'm not sure if they go after PayPal for the money or what...

They do have some sort of fraud protection with credit cards, I'm not too sure on the details of it. I'm just glad I got my credit!

That's my first and last big ticket item purchase on eBay, that's for sure. I've sold several Macs on eBay, and the first purchase I make I get burned!
................
     
skyman
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Nov 10, 2001, 11:41 PM
 
Originally posted by murbot:
<STRONG>It was MasterCard reimbursing me for the funds. I'm not sure if they go after PayPal for the money or what...

They do have some sort of fraud protection with credit cards, I'm not too sure on the details of it. I'm just glad I got my credit!

That's my first and last big ticket item purchase on eBay, that's for sure. I've sold several Macs on eBay, and the first purchase I make I get burned! </STRONG>
What was the sellers eBay rating?
MacBookPro 1.83GHz - 1.5 GB RAM - OS 10.4.6
     
soonbaek  (op)
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Nov 11, 2001, 01:48 AM
 
Damn... The price went up to $2399 before the 20% coupon...
     
MadMacs
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Nov 11, 2001, 01:31 PM
 


<small>[ 07-11-2002, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: MadMacs ]</small>
     
murbot
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Nov 12, 2001, 03:22 AM
 
The rating was good, 47 I think. Mostly buys, but a few sells with positive feedback. We think those were set up though to make potential buyers confident. Great email communication as well - until I paid that is.

Just goes to show you, if it seems too good to be true, it usually is.
................
     
joebadiah
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Nov 14, 2001, 11:05 PM
 
Hi, I placed an order with J.C. Morris a couple weeks ago. When I read this topic, I was concerned (understandably). Well, there was no hard proof that it was a scam, so I looked into it myself. The thing that convinces me that this is a scam is this:
http://csearch.auctions.shopping.yah...cmorris&acc=us

This is a list of the auctions that they have done on Yahoo. They got their rating of 21 by buying and selling relatively cheap CD's and manuals and by winning their own auctions for the more expensive laptops (two or three users with no or 1 feedback won three or four each of these laptops). They built up their positive rating with bogus names. A few people actually (mistakenly) won the auctions, but apparently never got their laptops.

I'm going to cancel and hopefully get my money back.
     
glennmac
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Western Connecticut
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Nov 15, 2001, 01:52 AM
 
I have been closely following the Rev. B powerbook and ibook auctions on Yahoo and Ubid since October 16, some for ridiculously low prices, and I have participated in and "won" some of these auctions. During and after these auctions I have, when possible, emailed and telephoned the sellers.

My conclusion from this experience is that EVERY Rev. B Ti and ibook on these auctions is suspect.

Bells should go off whenever a hot new product, barely shipped by the manufacturer, suddenly shows up in auctions at substantial discounts. More bells should go off when the product is offered with maximum memory and disk storage for these low prices. The carillon should become deafening to a buyer when the purported seller will not take a credit card, will not accept COD, will not agree to an escrow paid by you, and will not even agree to your picking up the product in person.

This powerbook scam situation is so bad on Yahoo that at least three disgusted members have opened "auctions" simply as notice forums to warn others of the powerbook scams.

To any of you salivating for a new powerbook deal, I offer the following three universal truths: (1) you get what you pay for; (2) there is no free lunch; and (3) if it sounds too good to be true, it is.

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: glennmac ]
     
bugs
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Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: San Diego, California, USA
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Nov 15, 2001, 02:41 AM
 
Originally posted by glennmac:
<STRONG> (1) you get what you pay for[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: glennmac ]</STRONG>

Are you quite sure about that?

Or is it "You pay for what you get."

There's a big difference.
One is promised by sellers, the other is more realistic.
iMac 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo 6GB, OS 10.6.8
Macbook Pro 2.2GHz Core i7 8GB. OS 10.6.8
iPhone 3GS 32GB, OS 5 / TiBook / Newton (2)
     
soonbaek  (op)
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Join Date: Aug 2001
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Nov 16, 2001, 01:06 AM
 
Originally posted by joebadiah:
<STRONG>Hi, I placed an order with J.C. Morris a couple weeks ago. When I read this topic, I was concerned (understandably). Well, there was no hard proof that it was a scam, so I looked into it myself.
</STRONG>
I'm sorry to hear that.... I was wondering how they would react to your cancellation. Could you please keep us informed?

And I was wondering which item you had purchased? If it was a iBook someone at anandtech forum had received one within a week. (user Atomic towards the end of the thread)

With all the warning you guys are giving me, it looks like I'm going to give them a try. Please don't flame me as stated before, I won't come crying if it goes bad.

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: soonbaek ]
     
MoKoNa^
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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Nov 16, 2001, 05:46 AM
 
Originally posted by soonbaek:
<STRONG>

I'm sorry to hear that.... I was wondering how they would react to your cancellation. Could you please keep us informed?

And I was wondering which item you had purchased? If it was a iBook someone at anandtech forum had received one within a week. (user Atomic towards the end of the thread)

With all the warning you guys are giving me, it looks like I'm going to give them a try. Please don't flame me as stated before, I won't come crying if it goes bad.

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: soonbaek ]</STRONG>
Please come back though, I want to hear how it went!
PuuPuPuuu!
     
 
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