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Death Penalty
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Metzen
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Feb 17, 2002, 05:09 AM
 
Ok, this topic is for Ca$h. He keeps attempting to bring another topic off track by saying, "we should do this to murderer's."

Well Ca$h, here's your chance, knock yourself dead.

What should we do to murderer's? Kill them?

What should we do to rapists? Kill them?

What should we do to Palentologists? Kill them?

What should we do to people who speed? Kill them?

What should we do to people who drive Neon's? Kill them?

Have fun!
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.
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KellyHogan
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Feb 17, 2002, 05:20 AM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
<STRONG>Ok, this topic is for Ca$h. He keeps attempting to bring another topic off track by saying, "we should do this to murderer's."

What should we do to murderer's? Kill them?

What should we do to rapists? Kill them?

Have fun!</STRONG>
Rapists and murderers should be placed in prison's which have manufacturing facilities. Each would be employed for their full term, sometimes a full life-time, and the company they labor for in prison would compensate the victims of the crime with the wages earned by the convict. In some sense this is a kind of slavery but it pays the victims of the crime while also creating a sane regime in the prisons instead of breeding more violence and fear as they currently do.

There should also be group counselling. They don't do enough of that in some of the most draconian prisons and the result is that some convicts are released in a state even worse than when they went in.
     
BTP
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Feb 17, 2002, 05:35 AM
 
That is a really nice idea. I think that prisoners should repay society and if that is done by their laboring for the common good, that is fine with me. Your idea is a nice alternative, but unfortunately you would have the ACLU and the accompanying ultra-liberals screaming that you can't force people that rape and kill to work. They should be allowed to exercise, read and watch cable tv. What part of "IT'S PRISON" do you think they don't understand?
A lie can go halfway around the world before the truth even gets its boots on. - Mark Twain
     
chris_h
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Feb 17, 2002, 07:00 AM
 
Originally posted by KellyHogan:
[QB]
and the company they labor for in prison would compensate the victims of the crime with the wages earned by the convict. /QB]
You're on the right track, but you're still way off.
Some problems:

#companies would no doubt pay minimum wage (if not less), which would take away jobs from non-imprisoned americans.

#you shouldn't pay someone for being the victim of a crime. this creates many problems, but i'll give you one example:
when i was in high school there was a girl that liked to claim she was raped by various people (a teacher, a friends father, etc). After about the 4th person, people got really suspicious, and she confessed to making it all up. Those people spent time in jail. Can you imagine the incintive this would provide for making stuff like this up?

#this creates motivation for the government (and the corporations who run it) to put more and more people in jail. we're heading down that road too fast as it is.


What we should really be doing is using prisoners for Public Works. Highway cleanup, park building, etc etc.

And no there should be no death penalty.
Government sponsored murder is no good.
I don't care if we have osama binladen siting in a cell, we don't have the authority to take his life... at least not on american soil
     
olePigeon
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Feb 17, 2002, 07:00 AM
 
The penalty for rape should be this: The rapists should be bent over a knee, and ass raped by the most disgusting sodomites we can dig up in the depths of a maximum security prison. Then they should be castrated, poisoned, stabbed, hung, drawn, quartered, disemboweled, then dragged through barbed wire and drenched in pig's feces. Repeat until victim or immediate family is satisfied. One religious leader from every known religion to give a word of damnation over the deceased, then the remains should be thrown out with the trash with no possibility of a proper burial.

Murder should hold 2 penalties. Life in prison if no previous record, death if proven dangerous to society. Death for multiple murders regardless of previous record.

Manslaughter should hold life in prison.

Involuntary manslaughter should be tried on circumstance.

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>Rapists and murderers should be placed in prison's which have manufacturing facilities. Each would be employed for their full term, sometimes a full life-time, and the company they labor for in prison would compensate the victims of the crime with the wages earned by the convict. In some sense this is a kind of slavery but it pays the victims of the crime while also creating a sane regime in the prisons instead of breeding more violence and fear as they currently do.</STRONG>
You've got to be f*cking kidding me. You think making someone fabricate license plates is a just punishment for your daughter or wife being raped? For a loved one to be kidnapped, starved for 4 days, tortured, raped, then murdered?

What's the price you put on your family? Mine has no monetary value. You can't pay me off if anyone in my family is raped or murdered. What the hell is wrong with you?

If someone steals a car, fine. Put him in knitting socks. Have his wages pay the person who lost their car. You don't put Geoffrey Dommer in the car industry after murdering and cannibalizing 12 people.
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
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you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
chris_h
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Feb 17, 2002, 07:20 AM
 
Originally posted by ME:
<STRONG>when i was in high school there was a girl that liked to claim she was raped by various people (a teacher, a friends father, etc). After about the 4th person, people got really suspicious, and she confessed to making it all up. Those people spent time in jail.</STRONG>
Originally posted by olePigeon:
<STRONG>The penalty for rape should be this: The rapists should be bent over a knee, and ass raped by the most disgusting sodomites we can dig up in the depths of a maximum security prison. Then they should be castrated, poisoned, stabbed, hung, drawn, quartered, disemboweled, then dragged through barbed wire and drenched in pig's feces. Repeat until victim or immediate family is satisfied. One religious leader from every known religion to give a word of damnation over the deceased, then the remains should be thrown out with the trash with no possibility of a proper burial. </STRONG>
LOGIC WINS AGAIN
     
BTP
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Feb 17, 2002, 07:24 AM
 
Ole-

I like your solution. Kinda warm and fuzzy for me, but it'll do.

I don't think KH meant to suggest that working to repay victims was meant to pay x for a murder and y for a rape. It was just remuneration, much like Victeim's Services, which is a fund that helps out victims of crimes. Taxpayers fund that, and if a direct payment to a victem we not to your loking, them maybe it should go to the victems fund.

Chris-

The arguement has been amde about taking jobs away, but many solutions have been offered. Minimum wage doesn't apply, benefits don't apply and work that can be done is limited. Lessor offenders could do roadcrew work, but those that are high risk really can't do much outside the confines of prision.

Paying people to be the vitcims of crime. Hmmm.. Funny thought. Anyway, them pay it to a victims fund.

As for motivation for the government (and the corporations who run it, Mr. Conspiracy Theorist) to put more and more people in jail, it is not a good idea, as it cost a lot of $$ to imprison a person and it is not a business.

How's Mr. Couch?
A lie can go halfway around the world before the truth even gets its boots on. - Mark Twain
     
KellyHogan
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Feb 17, 2002, 07:32 AM
 
Originally posted by chris_h:
<STRONG>

You're on the right track, but you're still way off.
Some problems:

#companies would no doubt pay minimum wage (if not less), which would take away jobs from non-imprisoned americans.

#you shouldn't pay someone for being the victim of a crime. this creates many problems, )</STRONG>
They export production to countries where they pay four times lower than minimum wage anyway. There has to be a way to distribute labor. There are new business opening all the time and then there are business downsizing all the time. Work is always available.

As for compensation, I was compensated 4000UK last year for a crime and I'm not complaining. I deserve the money if the government and police can't do their job.
     
chris_h
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Feb 17, 2002, 07:34 AM
 
Originally posted by BTP:
<STRONG>
Minimum wage doesn't apply,
</STRONG>
That's exactly the problem... Jobs get sent to mexico/china, etc because of no minimum wage or other nicities you have to give in the U.S.

Originally posted by BTP:
<STRONG>
As for motivation for the government (and the corporations who run it, Mr. Conspiracy Theorist)
</STRONG>
You really don't think corporations run this country? You are in america right? Wisen up, hombre.

Originally posted by BTP:
<STRONG>
to put more and more people in jail, it is not a good idea, as it cost a lot of $$ to imprison a person and it is not a business.
</STRONG>
Why do they do it then? Why are there 6.5 million people in the correctional system, versus 1.5 million in 1998 (not exactly sure of those figures, but too lazy to look up. The point is it has jumped alot).

But that's just it, the government doesn't have to pay for it. We do.

We pay more so that more of us can be imprisoned. GENIUS!

Originally posted by BTP:
<STRONG>
How's Mr. Couch? </STRONG>
Harvey is fine.
     
KellyHogan
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Feb 17, 2002, 07:35 AM
 
Originally posted by olePigeon:
<STRONG>
You've got to be f*cking kidding me. You think making someone fabricate license plates is a just punishment for your daughter or wife being raped? For a loved one to be kidnapped, starved for 4 days, tortured, raped, then murdered?

.</STRONG>
OK, then. We put them in a prison, make them all scared, mix them with people who have committed lesser crimes. Put them on death row for 5 billion years which costs millions in tax payers money. Create an atmosphere of barbarism and hostility in the prisons which means people who do short or medium term sentences come out of prison even worse than they went in and what happens? They end up being the ones who rape and murder.

Great way of running a society and reform system.

Jeffrey Dalmer. Yeah, blame McDonalds on that one.
     
chris_h
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Feb 17, 2002, 07:40 AM
 
Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>
As for compensation, I was compensated 4000UK last year for a crime and I'm not complaining. I deserve the money if the government and police can't do their job.</STRONG>
Since you're talking in I'll assume you aren't in the usa, and I can't really speak for how things are on that side of the pond.

However, it sounds like you got some some sort of settlement with your govt for incompetence, which is fine... either that, or you sued for some sort of monetary damages?

Anyway, here in the states, the supreme court has ruled (last year), that the police have no responsibility WHATSOEVER to protect people. This was brought up in a case from someone who lived in the 'bad part of town' and it took police something like 2 hours to respond to a 911 call.

And it isn't a matter of if you deserve it or not. If I'm poor (which I am), and think I could get money by saying I was raped or whatever, then there's motivation for me to do that (I wouldn't, but many many would).
You'd see the number of rape accusations skyrocket.
     
chris_h
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Feb 17, 2002, 07:42 AM
 
Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>

OK, then. We put them in a prison, make them all scared, mix them with people who have committed lesser crimes. Put them on death row for 5 billion years which costs millions in tax payers money. Create an atmosphere of barbarism and hostility in the prisons which means people who do short or medium term sentences come out of prison even worse than they went in and what happens? They end up being the ones who rape and murder.

Great way of running a society and reform system.

Jeffrey Dalmer. Yeah, blame McDonalds on that one.</STRONG>
Maybe its the codeine, but this made absolutely no sense to me. Are you for or against what he was saying? I think my sarcasm detector is out of service?
     
KellyHogan
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Feb 17, 2002, 07:59 AM
 
Originally posted by chris_h:
<STRONG>

Since you're talking in I'll assume you aren't in the usa, and I can't really speak for how things are on that side of the pond.

However, it sounds like you got some some sort of settlement with your govt for incompetence, which is fine... either that, or you sued for some sort of monetary damages?

Anyway, here in the states, the supreme court has ruled (last year), that the police have no responsibility WHATSOEVER to protect people. This was brought up in a case from someone who lived in the 'bad part of town' and it took police something like 2 hours to respond to a 911 call.

And it isn't a matter of if you deserve it or not. If I'm poor (which I am), and think I could get money by saying I was raped or whatever, then there's motivation for me to do that (I wouldn't, but many many would).
You'd see the number of rape accusations skyrocket.</STRONG>
I was compensated for a physical attack when a video store was being robbed. For that there was the injury and witnesses and the fault lies on the government and police for their part in not tackling youth crime. Therefore they pay and if they find the guilty party then they claim the money from them. That's a good system.

Now regard rape accusations. If someone is going to make one they have to have evidence otherwise it has no ground. That's why there are so few false accusations. Just recently here in Britain there has been a rape accusation against the Hamiltons (dont ask who they are). There was no evidence against them, the accuser made a large amount of money by selling her story to the newspapers and last week she was arrested by the police. But she recieved nothing from the government.
     
neill anblome
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Feb 17, 2002, 08:22 AM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
<STRONG>Ok, this topic is for Ca$h. He keeps attempting to bring another topic off track by saying, "we should do this to murderer's."

Well Ca$h, here's your chance, knock yourself dead.

What should we do to murderer's? Kill them?

What should we do to rapists? Kill them?

What should we do to Palentologists? Kill them?

What should we do to people who speed? Kill them?

What should we do to people who drive Neon's? Kill them?

Have fun!</STRONG>
...what shall we do with the drunken sailor, what shall we do with the drunken sailor...nanananananana early in the mornin' *singingvoice*


Sorry, just kinda' reminded my of that song. Carry on...

...by any means necessary
     
chris_h
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Feb 17, 2002, 08:22 AM
 
Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>

I was compensated for a physical attack when a video store was being robbed. For that there was the injury and witnesses and the fault lies on the government and police for their part in not tackling youth crime. Therefore they pay and if they find the guilty party then they claim the money from them. That's a good system.
</STRONG>
Hmmmm... what part of the world is this?

And as for rape accusations, evidence is fine, but here in texas we tend to throw innocent people in jail all the time (Justice... TO THE EXTREME). Thanks, christian fundies, republicans, et al !
     
Metzen  (op)
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Feb 18, 2002, 04:53 AM
 
Originally posted by neill anblome:
<STRONG>

...what shall we do with the drunken sailor, what shall we do with the drunken sailor...nanananananana early in the mornin' *singingvoice*


Sorry, just kinda' reminded my of that song. Carry on...</STRONG>
Actually, it's:

"What do we do with a drunken sailor, what do we do with a drunken sailor, what do we with drunken sailor, eaaaaaaaaaaaaaarly in the mornin'...

Throw him in a hole with the captain's daughter,
Throw him in a hole with the captain's daughter,
Throw him in a hole with the captain's daughter eaaaaaarly in the mornin'



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BTP
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Feb 18, 2002, 05:15 AM
 
Originally posted by chris_h:
<STRONG>
Why do they do it then? Why are there 6.5 million people in the correctional system, versus 1.5 million in 1998 (not exactly sure of those figures, but too lazy to look up. The point is it has jumped alot).
</STRONG>
Maybe because they break the law?
A lie can go halfway around the world before the truth even gets its boots on. - Mark Twain
     
chris_h
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Feb 18, 2002, 05:19 AM
 
Originally posted by BTP:
<STRONG>

Maybe because they break the law?</STRONG>
Nope. It's because the laws are not just.
     
olePigeon
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Feb 18, 2002, 07:26 AM
 
Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>

OK, then. We put them in a prison, make them all scared, mix them with people who have committed lesser crimes. Put them on death row for 5 billion years which costs millions in tax payers money.</STRONG>
First of all, my punishment never said anything about death row. There isn't exactly a waiting list for the death penalty. It's assh*les who appeal, appeal some more, and appeal again for years on end... blame the lawyers. I say give them 1 appeal. If they're found guilty again, f*ck 'em.

<STRONG>Create an atmosphere of barbarism and hostility in the prisons which means people who do short or medium term sentences come out of prison even worse than they went in and what happens? They end up being the ones who rape and murder.

Great way of running a society and reform system.</STRONG>
Of all the money you save, of all the people who are removed from the system, we would actually have the means of providing a proper system in which individuals AREN'T mixed up in the same environment. The reason it's so bad now is because it's so overcrowded.

<STRONG>
Jeffrey Dalmer. Yeah, blame McDonalds on that one.
</STRONG>
What does McDonald's have to do with it? In my penal system he'd be dead and not flipping burgers. It's that simple.

Originally posted by chris_h :
<STRONG>
LOGIC WINS AGAIN
</STRONG>
There is a HUGE difference between jail and prison, just to clear that up for you. Jail is where you go when waiting for or during a trial, misdemeners, etc. Prison is where you go for a felony.

<STRONG>
Why do they do it then? Why are there 6.5 million people in the correctional system, versus 1.5 million in 1998 (not exactly sure of those figures, but too lazy to look up. The point is it has jumped alot).</STRONG>
Probably because our population increases about 2.34 million people each year (and rising). So in the 4 year span from 1998 until, well, now, that's roughly 9.36 million more people we have to deal with. The system hasn't changed, there's just a sh*t load more people here.
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
   
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