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New Java 1.4.1DP9 works with Safari
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Metzen
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Jan 30, 2003, 04:03 AM
 
I'll post benchmarks from CaffineMark later.

Get it at ADC.
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Metzen  (op)
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Jan 30, 2003, 05:21 AM
 
Being license compliant:

I'm surprised all those who complain about licensing aren't Debian users (kudos to you if you are).
( Last edited by Metzen; Jan 30, 2003 at 07:38 PM. )
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sshand
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Jan 30, 2003, 08:05 AM
 
1.4 is currently a developer preview only. What is the point of running benchmarks against pre-release piece of software unless you're the one developing it?
what is a signature anyway?
     
dfiler
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Jan 30, 2003, 10:30 AM
 
Originally posted by sshand:
1.4 is currently a developer preview only. What is the point of running benchmarks against pre-release piece of software unless you're the one developing it?
Who pissed in your cheerios today?

Don't worry, next time we'll ask your permission to discuss OS X software in the OS X software forum.

I for one am quite interested in the future of Java. After Microsoft sabotaged/abandoned java, it seemed to loose quite a bit of momentum. The progress of future releases is quite pertinent to software developers and IT administrators. Thanks for the report Metzen!
     
sshand
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Jan 30, 2003, 11:16 AM
 
"I for one am quite interested in the future of Java"

Yeah sure, we all are. But what does this tell you about the future of Java? I'll tell you. Nothing.

"After Microsoft sabotaged/abandoned java, it seemed to loose quite a bit of momentum"

what?...

"The progress of future releases is quite pertinent to software developers and IT administrators."

Information about the current state of the of the 1.4jdk can be found in much more detail elsewhere. If software developers and IT administrators are serious about their job, and if Java is part of their job, then they'll not come here for info.

My point was, a benchmark like that will just make all the whiners come out and complain.

Let's wait until we have a released product before we complain about performance.

Go join the devolopers putting the JDK through its paces and reporting bugs if you're really interested in where Java on the mac is going...
what is a signature anyway?
     
Arkham_c
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Jan 30, 2003, 12:33 PM
 
For most developers, JDK 1.4 doesn't offer a whole lot over 1.3.1. I know I can only think of one time I wanted to use something new in 1.4, and I found an easy workaround in 1.3.1.
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K++
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Jan 30, 2003, 01:21 PM
 
Does no one read the long pages of text anymore before they download things?

All the Pre-release developer builds of java currently beog worked on by Apple are under NDA. The mere fact you have them means that you agreed to the NDA to get to them. You have just violated that, even more so you seem to have no idea what your talking about if your are concerned with java as a mac development platform. It has never and will never be that. Java has one and only one place, that is for learning OOP concepts and for crossplatform apps, beyond that, there really is nothing to get all up and about for when it comes to java.

P.S. If I were a tattletale, or at least knew your Developer account name, I would tell on you.
     
JLL
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Jan 30, 2003, 01:42 PM
 
Originally posted by K++:
Java has one and only one place, that is for learning OOP concepts and for crossplatform apps, beyond that, there really is nothing to get all up and about for when it comes to java.
JLL

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KidRed
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Jan 30, 2003, 03:40 PM
 
Yea, the java release which may or may not have need released would have been under NDA. I'm under NDA so I can't discuss anything concerning java or safari, so anyone who is , is violating their NDA.
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dfiler
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Jan 30, 2003, 03:41 PM
 
Originally posted by sshand:
My point was, a benchmark like that will just make all the whiners come out and complain.

Let's wait until we have a released product before we complain about performance.
Wow! You are a complete *******. You were the only one whining or complaining here.

Everyone take note. sshand has declared that we aren't allowed to discuss beta software in the MacNN forums.
     
unimacs
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Jan 30, 2003, 04:02 PM
 
Originally posted by K++:
Java has one and only one place, that is for learning OOP concepts and for crossplatform apps, beyond that, there really is nothing to get all up and about for when it comes to java.
Java is one of the leading languages used in creating Enterprise class dynamic web sites.

Server side Java is huge. If I couldn't do Java development on my Mac, I'd have to by a damn PC.
     
Metzen  (op)
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Jan 30, 2003, 06:40 PM
 
Originally posted by K++:
All the Pre-release developer builds of java currently beog worked on by Apple are under NDA. The mere fact you have them means that you agreed to the NDA to get to them. You have just violated that, even more so you seem to have no idea what your talking about if your are concerned with java as a mac development platform. It has never and will never be that. Java has one and only one place, that is for learning OOP concepts and for crossplatform apps, beyond that, there really is nothing to get all up and about for when it comes to java.
The license doesn't say anywhere that I can't benchmark it. And post the results, as a matter of fact, it implicitly states that should something that is bound to occur, then it's alright to do whatever that is.
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Metzen  (op)
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Jan 30, 2003, 06:43 PM
 
Originally posted by sshand:
1.4 is currently a developer preview only. What is the point of running benchmarks against pre-release piece of software unless you're the one developing it?
To see how it's progressed. If anyone actually bothered to look at the benchmarks, excluding anything to do with graphics, Java 1.4.1 will easily beats 1.3.1.
( Last edited by Metzen; Jan 30, 2003 at 07:40 PM. )
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JLL
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Jan 30, 2003, 06:43 PM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
The license doesn't say anywhere that I can't benchmark it. And post the results, as a matter of fact, it implicitly states that should something that is bound to occur, then it's alright to do whatever that is.
By posting results you're technically talking about DP9 outside the closed mailing list.
JLL

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Twilly Spree
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Jan 30, 2003, 06:59 PM
 
Will this Java 1.4.1 mean that Java apps will run better on the Mac? Apps like Limewire and CrushFTP have Aqua gui issues and stuff.
     
Metzen  (op)
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Jan 30, 2003, 07:06 PM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
The license doesn't say anywhere that I can't benchmark it. And post the results, as a matter of fact, it implicitly states that should something that is bound to occur, then it's alright to do whatever that is.
5. Confidential Information. You agree that all information disclosed by Apple to you that relates to Apple's products, designs, business plans, business opportunities, finances, research, development, know-how, personnel, or third-party confidential information disclosed to you by Apple, will be considered and referred to collectively as "Confidential Information." Confidential Information, however, does not include: (a) information that is now or subsequently becomes generally available to the public through no fault or breach on your part; (b) information that you can demonstrate to have had rightfully in your possession prior to disclosure to you by Apple; (c) information that is independently developed by you without the use of any Confidential Information; (d) information that you rightfully obtain from a third party who has been given the right to transfer or disclose it by Apple; or (e) any third party software and/or documentation provided by Apple and accompanied by licensing terms that do not impose confidentiality obligations on the use or disclosure of such software and/or documentation, for example, software governed by the GNU General Public License ("GPL").
Now:
A) information that is now or subsequently becomes generally available to the public through no fault or breach on your part;

This information will become subsequently available to the public regardless of whether or not I post here or not. My little post here does not equal me making it generally available to the public. If this got posted on Slashdot on the other hand, my arguement might be moot
( Last edited by Metzen; Jan 30, 2003 at 07:11 PM. )
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Metzen  (op)
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Jan 30, 2003, 07:07 PM
 
Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
Will this Java 1.4.1 mean that Java apps will run better on the Mac? Apps like Limewire and CrushFTP have Aqua gui issues and stuff.
Yes. Limewire boots much faster but crashes when it's "Loading Messages"
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JLL
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Jan 30, 2003, 07:16 PM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
Confidential Information, however, does not include: (a) information that is now or subsequently becomes generally available to the public through no fault or breach on your part;
But the breach is now on your part.

You're reading the sentence like this:

"Confidential Information, however, does not include: (a) information that is now or subsequently becomes generally available to the public"

But you forget the last part.

Furthermore, benchmarks on a DP will never become available to the public.
JLL

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Metzen  (op)
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Jan 30, 2003, 07:27 PM
 
Originally posted by JLL:
But the breach is now on your part.

You're reading the sentence like this:

"Confidential Information, however, does not include: (a) information that is now or subsequently becomes generally available to the public"

But you forget the last part.

Furthermore, benchmarks on a DP will never become available to the public.
It will become subsequently available to the public regardless of what I post, hence the "through no fault or breach of your own" discludes me. Keywords are "generally available".

The part about posting regarding a DP got me though... I don't think it states it has to be for the shipping version... Hence, Java 1.4.1 is Java 1.4.1... Best to look into it though.
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voodoo
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Jan 30, 2003, 07:33 PM
 
New Java. I like. Is it just my musunderstanding or has Java always been slower on OS X than Windows 2K or XP? I do have a dang slow machine so obviously that could be the biggest culprit
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Metzen  (op)
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Jan 30, 2003, 07:36 PM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
It will become subsequently available to the public regardless of what I post, hence the "through no fault or breach of your own" discludes me. Keywords are "generally available".

The part about posting regarding a DP got me though... I don't think it states it has to be for the shipping version... Hence, Java 1.4.1 is Java 1.4.1... Best to look into it though.
It states for the prototype only, thus I withdrawl all of my comments.
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KidRed
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Jan 30, 2003, 09:25 PM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
It will become subsequently available to the public regardless of what I post, hence the "through no fault or breach of your own" discludes me. Keywords are "generally available".

The part about posting regarding a DP got me though... I don't think it states it has to be for the shipping version... Hence, Java 1.4.1 is Java 1.4.1... Best to look into it though.
Yea, but you are responsible for it being public. No one knew here until you posted about it. Whether it *will* be known in the future doesn't mean you are allowed to talk about it now.

If you are a beta tester, then you can't talk about anything related to any release you test.
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Metzen  (op)
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Feb 2, 2003, 07:08 PM
 
Originally posted by KidRed:
Yea, but you are responsible for it being public. No one knew here until you posted about it. Whether it *will* be known in the future doesn't mean you are allowed to talk about it now.
Sure it does. That's what it says.

Originally posted by KidRed:
If you are a beta tester, then you can't talk about anything related to any release you test.
Depends on the license...
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Chuckit
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Feb 2, 2003, 07:34 PM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
It will become subsequently available to the public regardless of what I post, hence the "through no fault or breach of your own" discludes me. Keywords are "generally available".
The "subsequently" here refers to "after the making of this license agreement." Until it has become publicly available (in such a way that you would already know without having privileged information), you aren't allowed to talk about it. That's what the agreement means.
Chuck
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thefamousmred
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Feb 2, 2003, 08:17 PM
 
If Apple did indeed release a "DP9" Java preview, don't talk about it.

Really.

And for the folk who think Java's dead: it is for some things (consumer apps, for the most part), but in the business world Java is *huge*. Companies are porting their apps to Java as fast as they can because Java is worlds better for enterprise development than other environments, for many reasons.

Finally, 1.4.1 is a good thing. It includes a number of APIs that are basically essential for high-performance applications (like NIO), as well as major performance enhancements (for example, reflection is about a zillion times faster).
     
Hi I'm Mike
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Feb 3, 2003, 12:40 AM
 
Originally posted by thefamousmred:
If Apple did indeed release a "DP9" Java preview, don't talk about it.

Finally, 1.4.1 is a good thing. It includes a number of APIs that are basically essential for high-performance applications (like NIO), as well as major performance enhancements (for example, reflection is about a zillion times faster).
Didn't you just talk about it there after telling others not to talk about it?
     
Metzen  (op)
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Feb 3, 2003, 02:00 AM
 
Originally posted by Chuckit:
The "subsequently" here refers to "after the making of this license agreement."
That's not what it says...

Originally posted by Chuckit:
Until it has become publicly available (in such a way that you would already know without having privileged information), you aren't allowed to talk about it. That's what the agreement means.
Granted, but I was looking at it from a rather unique perspective. I was looking at it as subsequently meaning:

Following in time or order; succeeding.

Since benchmarks will become available eventually (and they will) I'm simply agreeing with this statement...

And "generally available to the public" not equaling MacNN since I definitely do not see MacNN as being main outlet of the public.

Meh, whatever the case, the comments have been withdrawn and I've been bitten by a Apple zealot or two.
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JLL
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Feb 3, 2003, 04:32 AM
 
Originally posted by Hi I'm Mike:
Didn't you just talk about it there after telling others not to talk about it?
He talked about Java 1.4.1 in general.
JLL

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JLL
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Feb 3, 2003, 04:33 AM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
[B]Since benchmarks will become available eventually (and they will) I'm simply agreeing with this statement../B]
Benchmarks of DP9 will never be available to the public.

Btw. why don't you just join the mail list if you have something to say about th DPs?
JLL

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Metzen  (op)
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Feb 3, 2003, 01:30 PM
 
Originally posted by JLL:
Benchmarks of DP9 will never be available to the public.
Indeed, hence my comments were withdrawn.

Originally posted by JLL:
Btw. why don't you just join the mail list if you have something to say about th DPs?
I don't like mailing lists.
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el_humpo
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Feb 3, 2003, 04:51 PM
 
Sheesh, what's the big deal? Let metzen benchmark DP9 if he feels like it. I really doubt Apple's gonna have him thrown in jail for posting informal performance numbers on a Mac enthusiast web board.
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KidRed
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Feb 3, 2003, 06:04 PM
 
Originally posted by el_humpo:
Sheesh, what's the big deal? Let metzen benchmark DP9 if he feels like it. I really doubt Apple's gonna have him thrown in jail for posting informal performance numbers on a Mac enthusiast web board.
The point is, is that this isn't someone that grabbed it off carracho. If they are a beta tester like I am, they CANNOT talk, discuss, mention, communicate anything that has anything to do with whatever files they are beta testing. Simple. No argument, no discussion. It may not be in the liscnece agreement when installing but it sure as hell was in the damn user agrement you sign to get the seed status.

Now if this was some 16yr old punk talkinga bout a file he grabbed off carracho, then yea, whatever, talk all you like.
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el_humpo
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Feb 3, 2003, 10:15 PM
 
Originally posted by KidRed:
The point is, is that this isn't someone that grabbed it off carracho. If they are a beta tester like I am, they CANNOT talk, discuss, mention, communicate anything that has anything to do with whatever files they are beta testing. Simple. No argument, no discussion. It may not be in the liscnece agreement when installing but it sure as hell was in the damn user agrement you sign to get the seed status.
Yes, I understand that he would be in violation of the user agreement. I was surpised at the vehement responses, though. It seems like a pretty minor issue. What do you care if he posts a few numbers?

Originally posted by KidRed:
Now if this was some 16yr old punk talkinga bout a file he grabbed off carracho, then yea, whatever, talk all you like.
But the 16yr old punk would be in violation of some license too... what's the difference?
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Metzen  (op)
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Feb 3, 2003, 10:50 PM
 
Originally posted by KidRed:
It may not be in the liscnece agreement when installing but it sure as hell was in the damn user agrement you sign to get the seed status.
Show me.
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Metzen  (op)
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Feb 3, 2003, 10:59 PM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
Show me.
Nevermind, just to bring down the "holier than thou" attitude, here is the ADC agreement:

From Apple:
6. Pre-release Software. You understand that Apple may make pre-release versions of Apple software and third party software available to you as an ADC member. If Apple makes pre-release Apple software available to you, you agree to also be bound by the terms and conditions set forth in the licensing agreement accompanying such software. If there is no license agreement accompanying the software, you agree to be bound by the terms and conditions set forth in the attached Prototype License and Confidentiality Agreement. Pre-release third party software provided by Apple to you may be accompanied by different licensing terms, in which case such licensing terms will govern your use of that particular third party software. You certify that software designated as pre-release test software will only be used for testing purposes, and will not be rented, sold, leased, sublicensed, assigned, or otherwise transferred except as permitted in Section 3 of this agreement. Further, you certify that you will not sell, transfer or export any product, process or service that is the direct product of any pre-release test software provided by Apple to you and that final testing will be done with any finished product which will be released to the mass market.
Show me where it says I'm not allowed to discuss the seed. That may have been true for the Alpha build, but it appears not so for the Beta build...
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JLL
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Feb 4, 2003, 05:34 AM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
Show me where it says I'm not allowed to discuss the seed. That may have been true for the Alpha build, but it appears not so for the Beta build...
Here is part of the agreement supplied with the seed itself:

1. In the event that Apple provides a feedback forum for communication of Confidential Information amongst ADC members regarding the Java 1.4.1 Prototype, you agree that the feedback forum provided by Apple shall be the only forum through which you will discuss or disclose such Confidential Information with ADC members outside your organization.
JLL

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Metzen  (op)
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Feb 4, 2003, 11:22 AM
 
Originally posted by JLL:
Here is part of the agreement supplied with the seed itself:

1. In the event that Apple provides a feedback forum for communication of Confidential Information amongst ADC members regarding the Java 1.4.1 Prototype, you agree that the feedback forum provided by Apple shall be the only forum through which you will discuss or disclose such Confidential Information with ADC members outside your organization.
Thank you.
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