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Angus_D · Dec 13, 2002, 04:57 PM

OK, let's face it - theming on OS X is a bit of a sorry state at the moment. This is partly because there are issues with both of the current theme formats, .theme and .dlta.

.theme lacks extensibility, but other than that is clean and nice. It's also well structured, as it is xml based, meaning it's easy to parse and maintain.

.dlta has more features, but is a completely unstructured mess. There are odd hacks to support things like multiple themes in one bundle (I beg the question, why?), and lack of localization.

Both formats suffer in the fact they rely on explicit paths, and offer only file-based 'patching' - for the .rsrc files, patching based on resources would be useful, and for things like BootX all that needs to be done is patching the correct offsets in the binary (would also mean that if BootX was updated in a system updated, themes wouldn't be regressing to an earlier version, they could just patch at a different offset).

So, themers, I propose we think about a new format. What would you like to see?

(If you're wondering where I fit into all of this, I'm co-developing an open-source theme changer)

starman · Dec 13, 2002, 04:59 PM

I suggest looking at the EXTENSIVE work done on the Windows side.

http://www.objectdesktop.com

There's some WICKED stuff there. It would be great if it could be brought to OS X.

Mike

macmike42 · Dec 13, 2002, 06:21 PM

Oh hey. One thread, two posts, neither of them have anything to do with each other, and it's in the wrong forum.

Angus_D: if it's going to be open-source, just do it, do it well, and document it. This topic has been beaten to death, yet we still don't have a decent format.

starman: have you noticed that all the widgets in the various OS X themes have been the same sizes, and in the same locations? Think about it...

Gatorzx2 · Dec 13, 2002, 06:24 PM

I wouldn't say OS X theming is at a sorry state at all. BBX Mercury was just released, Carbon is working on Watercolor, Swiz has a another theme about to be released, and Max is working on refining Milk and his other themes.

To be honest I can't stand 98% of those Windows skins. I think they are just horribly ugly looking and wouldn't compliment OS X at all.

swiz · Dec 13, 2002, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by macmike42:
have you noticed that all the widgets in the various OS X themes have been the same sizes, and in the same locations? Think about it...

[rhetorical question] You do know that is one of the required "limitations" of the OSX theme building right? [/rhetorical question]

I for one dont think the standardizing of sizes for elements in a theme is a bad idea. Of course it would be cool to have more control over it but if this "limitation" keeps even 3 of thsoe disgusting Kaliedoscope themes from coming to OSX, I am all for it.

I do however think that a theme based on Adams new industrial icons would have a profoundly better result if some of the elements could be resized; and some of them can be but just not some of the important ones. Such as titlebar widgets and push buttons. Titlebar widgets are squeezed to 19x19 by the OS in carbon apps and push buttons are treated horribly by carbon apps as well.

Yes the theme dev state for OSX is a bit off the mark right now but I would agree with some here that its looking like a pretty damn good future and Im happy to contribute what I can.

Angus_D · Dec 13, 2002, 07:31 PM

Care to point me to the past discussions? I haven't really been following theming that well over the past 2 years or whatever

BTW, ThemeChanger has dlta support now. Look out for a new release soon.

macmike42 · Dec 13, 2002, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by swiz:
[rhetorical question] You do know that is one of the required "limitations" of the OSX theme building right? [/rhetorical question]

Of course.

Originally posted by swiz:
I for one dont think the standardizing of sizes for elements in a theme is a bad idea. Of course it would be cool to have more control over it but if this "limitation" keeps even 3 of thsoe disgusting Kaliedoscope themes from coming to OSX, I am all for it.

I personally agree, however you must admit it can be frustrating and it certainly limits what one can do with a theme.

Originally posted by swiz:
I do however think that a theme based on Adams new industrial icons would have a profoundly better result if some of the elements could be resized; and some of them can be but just not some of the important ones. Such as titlebar widgets and push buttons. Titlebar widgets are squeezed to 19x19 by the OS in carbon apps and push buttons are treated horribly by carbon apps as well.

OTOH, if we had the "unlimited" customizability of, say, XFree86, well, I'm sure you've seen the interface atrocities. Makes Windows XP look like to pinnacle of the modern GUI in comparison.

Angus_D, see here and here.

goMac · Dec 13, 2002, 11:04 PM

I'm going to go ahead and throw this in the frey. I had opted to release this earlier, but I had decided not to with the current enviroment. This is this first "new era" format constructed. It is completely ThemeStep based with the main elements.

This format makes several compromises. It allows multiple themes in the same file. It is XML based. It is not a bundle, it is a file. The main files inside the theme do not use links, making it easier for a theme developer. It has set resources that can be switched, but also allows theme developers to add on other files with the destination paths that the user can turn off. It does not use OS Tags, in since these are not needed in a ThemeStep based format. Only additional elements have OS Tags.

What does this mean for theme developers?

1) No more worrying about OS Compatibility.
2) No more worrying about paths
3) Themes are now real files
4) Users can have control, and theme creators can still add files outside the set bounds.

Here is the example file:

http://conundrumsoft.com/DemoTheme.xscheme

I'm retaining control of this format (and of course the design, concepts) while this format is in development. If anything, I think that it is important that if a new format is created, we don't have variations spilling off. This is why I am currently holding this as my intellectual property. This doesn't mean such a format will be closed, or that it isn't up for modifications.

I completely agree that the old system needs to go. We need a completely resource based format. A huge leap is required though. This will be the hardest thing to overcome. Such a leap has never been able to have been made simply because the drive has never been there. Each theme changer (yes, even Duality) has been built on the old ways. To move to something that can bring OS X theming on par with other OS's, we will need completely new ideas, not a call back to .theme or a .theme2. With Duality moving internally to a resource based engine (as opposed to the old internal copy engine) the time has never been better.

eno · Dec 13, 2002, 11:48 PM

Finlay, why don't you just concentrate on making high-publicity bug-fixes to Apple's SCSI code (or whatever it was)?

Themes suck.

undotwa · Dec 14, 2002, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by starman:
I suggest looking at the EXTENSIVE work done on the Windows side.

http://www.objectdesktop.com

There's some WICKED stuff there. It would be great if it could be brought to OS X.

Mike

Why bring that stuff to X?

The features are either pointless, ugly, or are already on X.