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Horsepoo!!! · 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by The iMac Man

Apparently you need to read more carefully, because you said FREEWARE OR SHAREWARE.... you said nothing about it having to be free.

Plus, $40 to enable me to play thousands of games is a great deal.

Here you go talking about partitioning hard drives. Can you be realistic for just 2 seconds and tell me who (other than you and your geek friends that already have multiple partitions) from the current users will wipe their hard drive to make a new partition (considering there is no freeware or shareware tool that allows you to partition an HD without wiping everything that's on it) for a store bought copy of Windows XP?

Read the bolded part a few times and tell me what it means. Then look at your little list of 'partitioning' software and tell me if there are any freeware or shareware utility that can repartition and resize partitions on-the-fly.

And once you're done with realizing how stupid you are, tell me if 40 + 299 (retail price for Windows XP) is really such a small price to pay to play 'thousands of games'. At that price you can buy a Playstation, a Nintendo or a Gamecube and a few games. I don't know very many people that will shell out that kind of money to play PC games on their Mac. Are there really thousands of games that are worth playing on the PC?

The iMac Man · Jul 1, 2005, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

Read the bolded part a few times and tell me what it means. Then look at your little list of 'partitioning' software and tell me if there are any freeware or shareware utility that can repartition and resize partitions on-the-fly.

And once you're done with realizing how stupid you are, tell me if 40 + 299 (retail price for Windows XP) is really such a small price to pay to play 'thousands of games'. At that price you can buy a Playstation, a Nintendo or a Gamecube and a few games. I don't know very many people that will shell out that kind of money to play PC games on their Mac. Are there really thousands of games that are worth playing on the PC?

Thanks for calling me stupid, I will now be forced to notify the mods of your rediculous behavior.

Shareware and commercial software are the same to me, and that being the case, this is exactly what you say doesn't exist:

http://www.micromat.com/diskstudio/ds_introduction.html

And, yes, there are plenty of games worth playing on the PC, and if you are like me, computer games are million times better than console games and you have no interest in buying a console.

To me, $340 is plenty worth the ability to run any Windows game out there.

You aren't gonna win this argument....

Horsepoo!!! · 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by The iMac Man

Thanks, I am pretty stupid now that I think about it.

Shareware and commercial software are the same to me, and that being the case, this is exactly what you say doesn't exist:

http://www.micromat.com/diskstudio/ds_introduction.html

And, yes, there are plenty of games worth playing on the PC, and if you are like me, computer games are million times better than console games and you have no interest in buying a console.

To me, $340 is plenty worth the ability to run any Windows game out there.

You aren't gonna win this argument....

If you want to change the definition of shareware and commercial software, sure...then this is exactly what I said doesn't exist. Then again, if you come back to the real world where distinctions between shareware and commercial exist , there are NO FREEWARE AND SHAREWARE PARTITION UTILITY...ONLY COMMERCIAL ONES. If there was at least one shareware alternative, you could use it once, partition your HD and then throw the app in the trash and simply say I didn't like the app and won't ever use it again without paying a dime. But there isn't even a shareware utility available.

The real point, however (since you're sidetracking with this whole 'but this is exactly what you said doesn't exist' bullsh!t), is that you can't find a free partitioning utility anywhere.

To you, 340 is plenty worth. To most, it's not.

I've already won this argument...sorry.

CharlesS · Jul 1, 2005, 11:16 PM

The utility that is so popular on the Windows side for resizing partitions is Partition Magic, and it's not only commercial, but $70. And people don't seem to mind...

Horsepoo!!! · 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

The utility that is so popular on the Windows side for resizing partitions is Partition Magic, and it's not only commercial, but $70. And people don't seem to mind...

70 bucks for something you'll use once or twice, is not my, or many people's idea of fun. People do mind.

70 + 299 + whatever else you might need to play PC games on your Macintel is beginning to sound expensive to most people. I'd be surprised if anyone would take it well if game developers said 'Too bad sucka, you gotta buy the PC version' if people know they'd have to use a partitioning utility, buy Windows XP, and install it knowing it's unsupported.

Stop thinking inside the box and start thinking outside the box. You are not an average user. This is all very easy to most of us forum dwellers...but it is not a piece of cake to my sisters, my parents, or some of my friends that are computer illiterate. If you think me with a straight face that a lot of people "don't mind" and that a lot of people have "Partition Magic" for those magical moments where you *need* to resize or add another partition to your HD, I'll try not to laugh.

stinch · Jul 2, 2005, 11:57 AM

What happens when a computer illiterate person has a problem with their computer? They find someone who is computer literate to sort it out.

The person that normally fixes their problems is likely to already have the tools to partition drives and will probably install a pirate copy of windows as well.

blizzard · Jul 2, 2005, 11:58 AM

Alright gentlemen, round one is over...please retreat to your corners and take a breather.

Horsepoo!!! · 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by stinch

What happens when a computer illiterate person has a problem with their computer? They find someone who is computer literate to sort it out.

The person that normally fixes their problems is likely to already have the tools to partition drives and will probably install a pirate copy of windows as well.

If we're going down that road, the PC games are likely to get pirated as well...in this case, the game developers get screwed for not having a Mac version that's easily installable.

Don't bring piracy into the conversation because its effects are complex and unknown. If someone pirated a partition tool and Windows XP to install on his computer illiterate friend's box, he'll probably also bring a CD full of pirated cracked PC games. Or is the computer illiterate person going to start buying his PC games after his friend put an illegal copy of Windows XP on his computer? Maybe. But maybe not.

I can only see big disadvantages for game developers that decide to drop the Mac version. They're more likely to get much less money than if they had produced a Mac version. And unless DirectX is the most amazing game dev API ever and devs refuse to work with open APIs like OpenGL and OpenAL, devs that write portable code would have very little reason to spend a bit of extra time to simultaneously develop the Mac and PC version considering the CPU architecture will be exactly the same.

Taking a chance and dropping the Mac version now that games will be *easier* to port would be madness.

Drakino · Jul 3, 2005, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

FYI Wine is not going to be a good solution for end users, only pro users.

It also includes WineHelper a native Mac OS X application that helps launch .exe's. It allows for .exe's to be double clicked in the finder like any other application and essentially bypasses the need to run wine via the command line.

Thats something the DarWine folks already have out, when the overall project is still in early development. Odds are by next year if the Transgaming solution does make it over, people will just have to do the following:

1. Download a DMG file
2. Run the installer for DarWine
3. Insert Windows Game Disc
4. Double click Setup, and install the game

None of this dual partitioning mess (since Wine under Linux/OS X doesn't need an NTFS/FAT partition), no rebooting, and no worying about a Windows OS. This ends up being even easier then VirtualPC for running Windows apps.

Seems a good solution for end users to me, more so then Virtual PC or dual booting.

Graymalkin · Jul 6, 2005, 07:59 PM

I don't see any reason why Mac game developers would abandon the Mac platform. I think we'll see two things happen, first more game developers will do first party ports of their games and second we'll see more groups getting into Mac game porting. Porting a game from Windows to MacOS is about as hard as porting it from Windows to Linux. In fact in many cases it is probably a lot easier since it is a more cohesive environment.

Doing a Mac port will not longer require hiring the crack team of PowerPC assembly überhackers. The work can be done (well) by anyone familiar with DirectX and its functional alternatives. If non-Windows ports of games start to pull in significant revenue for developers (as they'll have a few million more potential customers) it will likely entice many developers to avoid Windows-only media libraries like DirectX. It's far less work porting a game between Windows and MacOS when it's already using OpenGL/OpenAL.

Third party companies will have an easier time doing ports because they know longer have to hire PowerPC assembly ninjas. Not only can they hire more people to do the porting work but they'll have a larger talent pool to draw from. Developers might also be more inclined to team up with third party porting groups to do simultaneous release ports if the work won't have to take a year due to optimization problems and the like.

Chuckit · Jul 6, 2005, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Drakino

Thats something the DarWine folks already have out, when the overall project is still in early development. Odds are by next year if the Transgaming solution does make it over, people will just have to do the following:

1. Download a DMG file
2. Run the installer for DarWine
3. Insert Windows Game Disc
4. Double click Setup, and install the game

Cedega != DarWine

a2daj · Jul 7, 2005, 04:08 PM

Another advantage for having companies like Aspyr and Macsoft doing ports, at least for the PC publishers, is that the PC publishers get someone to pay them not only for the rights to port the game, but deal with support as well. For the PC publishers, it's a win win situation. They don't have to allocate resources to develop a Mac version nor allocate resources to support the Mac version. And if it doesn't sell well on the Mac, they don't take the hit in the pocket book since the PC publisher is paid upfront most of the time.

Scooterboy · Jul 8, 2005, 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by Graymalkin

I don't see any reason why Mac game developers would abandon the Mac platform. I think we'll see two things happen, first more game developers will do first party ports of their games and second we'll see more groups getting into Mac game porting. Porting a game from Windows to MacOS is about as hard as porting it from Windows to Linux. In fact in many cases it is probably a lot easier since it is a more cohesive environment.

Doing a Mac port will not longer require hiring the crack team of PowerPC assembly überhackers. The work can be done (well) by anyone familiar with DirectX and its functional alternatives. If non-Windows ports of games start to pull in significant revenue for developers (as they'll have a few million more potential customers) it will likely entice many developers to avoid Windows-only media libraries like DirectX. It's far less work porting a game between Windows and MacOS when it's already using OpenGL/OpenAL.

Third party companies will have an easier time doing ports because they know longer have to hire PowerPC assembly ninjas. Not only can they hire more people to do the porting work but they'll have a larger talent pool to draw from. Developers might also be more inclined to team up with third party porting groups to do simultaneous release ports if the work won't have to take a year due to optimization problems and the like.

But why hire anyone to do the porting work when the PC game already plays on MacTel? And MacTel gamers have already bought it?

Chuckit · Jul 8, 2005, 04:49 AM

Why speculate about an alternate universe in which "the PC game already plays on MacTel"? It's been well established that this will not normally be the case on Mactels (which will not have Windows installed), so who cares?

mhuie · Jul 12, 2005, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

70 bucks for something you'll use once or twice, is not my, or many people's idea of fun. People do mind.

70 + 299 + whatever else you might need to play PC games on your Macintel is beginning to sound expensive to most people. I'd be surprised if anyone would take it well if game developers said 'Too bad sucka, you gotta buy the PC version' if people know they'd have to use a partitioning utility, buy Windows XP, and install it knowing it's unsupported.

Stop thinking inside the box and start thinking outside the box. You are not an average user. This is all very easy to most of us forum dwellers...but it is not a piece of cake to my sisters, my parents, or some of my friends that are computer illiterate. If you think me with a straight face that a lot of people "don't mind" and that a lot of people have "Partition Magic" for those magical moments where you *need* to resize or add another partition to your HD, I'll try not to laugh.

XP does not cost $299. Get a clue. XP Home retails for $99 and can be purchased for $70. I'm sure you can find it cheaper from someone who has upgraded to XP Pro. Add $40 for your OS X partitioning util. Thats $110 to be able to play the most current games.

Partition magic is the easiest tool in the world. Try using it before you knock it.

1. Make some free space.
2. Drag a slider to how large you want your new partition to be.
3. Hit apply, restart, and in 20 minutes, the process is complete.

Horsepoo!!! · Jul 12, 2005, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by mhuie

XP does not cost $299. Get a clue. XP Home retails for $99 and can be purchased for $70. I'm sure you can find it cheaper from someone who has upgraded to XP Pro. Add $40 for your OS X partitioning util. Thats $110 to be able to play the most current games.

Partition magic is the easiest tool in the world. Try using it before you knock it.

1. Make some free space.
2. Drag a slider to how large you want your new partition to be.
3. Hit apply, restart, and in 20 minutes, the process is complete.

It sure does on Microsoft's website. I know you can buy it for 99 or even 1 dollar. But, again, you're asking the world to be smart and informed which will never happen.

Most people are ignorant dolts that will buy Windows XP at full price and have no clue what partition is.

How about you write up a tutorial and give it to everyone. I know it's easy...they don't...and probably don't care.

Scooterboy · Jul 12, 2005, 09:30 PM

But PC and Mac gamers tend to be techies who know how to get things done. If Windows can run natively on an IntelMac, then I'll buy the PC version and run it rather than wait 2 to 12 months for the higher priced Mac verison. Hardcore gamers would tend to agree, I'd bet. Blizzard could save money by only optimizing one version, and Aspyr would stop all Mac ports of Windows games. Other software might be different as the Mac OS X interface will be used, unlike in games where you really can't tell what OS is running behind it.

Horsepoo!!! · Jul 12, 2005, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Scooterboy

But PC and Mac gamers tend to be techies who know how to get things done. If Windows can run natively on an IntelMac, then I'll buy the PC version and run it rather than wait 2 to 12 months for the higher priced Mac verison. Hardcore gamers would tend to agree, I'd bet. Blizzard could save money by only optimizing one version, and Aspyr would stop all Mac ports of Windows games. Other software might be different as the Mac OS X interface will be used, unlike in games where you really can't tell what OS is running behind it.

Gamer and techie are not mutually exclusive.

Weyland-Yutani · Jul 12, 2005, 11:25 PM

If the MacTels can boot Windows and play games, I will not buy another Mac specific game. Simple as that..

cheers

W-Y

goMac · Jul 13, 2005, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Drakino

Thats something the DarWine folks already have out, when the overall project is still in early development. Odds are by next year if the Transgaming solution does make it over, people will just have to do the following:

1. Download a DMG file
2. Run the installer for DarWine
3. Insert Windows Game Disc
4. Double click Setup, and install the game

None of this dual partitioning mess (since Wine under Linux/OS X doesn't need an NTFS/FAT partition), no rebooting, and no worying about a Windows OS. This ends up being even easier then VirtualPC for running Windows apps.

Seems a good solution for end users to me, more so then Virtual PC or dual booting.

You forgot these steps:

5. Run into all the WINE compatibilities.
6. Deal with all the missing "Windows Drivers"
7. Give up because the proper DirectX functions aren't implemented.

lenox · 05:41 PM

As for freeware/cheap/free partition editors, you could always use GNU PartEd , which although isn't for mac os x, is available as a boot disk image which should be able to boot on macTels fine. And it's free. Sorry, Horsepoo!!!

Jun aka pekto · Jul 30, 2005, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

It sure does on Microsoft's website. I know you can buy it for 99 or even 1 dollar. But, again, you're asking the world to be smart and informed which will never happen.

Most people are ignorant dolts that will buy Windows XP at full price and have no clue what partition is.

How about you write up a tutorial and give it to everyone. I know it's easy...they don't...and probably don't care.

True enough. But, people will have to be savvy enough to buy a Mac in the first place. Those buyers will have to go online to buy one since Mac stores aren't everywhere just yet. If they're savvy enough to buy a Mac online, they'll be savvy enough to shop around say, Newegg to find the full XP Home retail which sells for $93. There's really nothing that the average Joe will use in XP Pro that's not already in XP Home. So XP Home should be enough. Even the new dualcore cpu's work fine and show up as 2 cpu cores in XP Home. Most clueless Joes I've seen tend to ask more experienced folks advice or outright help in getting what they need. That's often enough to make them more informed if not a bit less clueless.

Edit: Excuse my post number. I couldn't remember my old login/password......

Denjira · Jul 31, 2005, 02:45 AM

It'd be great if the Windows infrastructure could be embedded into OS X so we could run .exe files meant for Windows but smoothly on our macs

Horsepoo!!! · Jul 31, 2005, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by lenox

As for freeware/cheap/free partition editors, you could always use GNU PartEd , which although isn't for mac os x, is available as a boot disk image which should be able to boot on macTels fine. And it's free. Sorry, Horsepoo!!!

You're forgetting one thing. Apple has dropped the floppy drive for over 5 years and they're not going to reintroduce it for the MacIntel. So enlighten me on how this free OSS (which is probably user-unfriendly like most OSS) is going to be helpful to MacIntel owners? Sorry, lenox!

Horsepoo!!! · Jul 31, 2005, 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by Jun aka pekto

True enough. But, people will have to be savvy enough to buy a Mac in the first place. Those buyers will have to go online to buy one since Mac stores aren't everywhere just yet. If they're savvy enough to buy a Mac online, they'll be savvy enough to shop around say, Newegg to find the full XP Home retail which sells for $93. There's really nothing that the average Joe will use in XP Pro that's not already in XP Home. So XP Home should be enough. Even the new dualcore cpu's work fine and show up as 2 cpu cores in XP Home. Most clueless Joes I've seen tend to ask more experienced folks advice or outright help in getting what they need. That's often enough to make them more informed if not a bit less clueless.

Patently untrue.™

Jun aka pekto · Jul 31, 2005, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

Patently untrue.™

Which part?

Horsepoo!!! · Jul 31, 2005, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Jun aka pekto

Which part?

Most clueless joes don't ask around for help...and if they do, they wouldn't know who to ask, so they'll ask some slightly less clueless joe. And if you think they'll easily find someone that knows how to install Windows XP on a MacIntel, you're kidding yourself. The process will probably much different than what it is on PCs right now. And, the slightly less clueless joes wouldn't even know how to install an alternate OS on a different partition in the first place.

And even if you think everything I said is false, I doubt very many average joe would go through all the trouble of asking someone else to install Windows XP on their computer to play games.

As much as I'd like to believe you guys, the real world indicates that only the hardest of hardcore gamers will bother installing XP to play games. I'd love to tell everyone that buying a MacIntel is a huge plus because you're getting two computers in one (or 3 or 4 if you're going to install Linux and other OSs) but this means nothing to 90% of people if it's harder to do/setup than sending an e-mail or browsing the web.

I somehow doubt that Apple will give a cute interface like the 'Startup Disk' preference pane to let you switch between OS X and Windows. MS sure as hell doesn't even have anything an equivalent to the 'Startup Disk' preference pane.

To switch between OS X and Windows you'll have to fiddle around the BIOS/firmware MacIntel equivalent (do you guys even know how to get to OpenFirmware or the firmware startup disk selector? I do, and maybe some of you do too, but I'll be damned if anyone else but geeks have seen those screens)...now if you're telling me that average people will start mucking in there overnight, you're sadly mistaken.

Jun aka pekto · Jul 31, 2005, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

And even if you think everything I said is false, I doubt very many average joe would go through all the trouble of asking someone else to install Windows XP on their computer to play games.

As much as I'd like to believe you guys, the real world indicates that only the hardest of hardcore gamers will bother installing XP to play games.

My bad. I thought you were referring to regular pc's, not Macintels. In any case, there seems to be enough pc users who know how to install XP or upgrade to XP:

http://www.ciol.com/content/news/2004/104050307.asp

goMac · Jul 31, 2005, 07:40 PM

If Apple uses Intel's new firmware that they are working on, only Windows XP 64 bit and Windows Server 2003 will work.

Brad Oliver · Aug 2, 2005, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

To switch between OS X and Windows you'll have to fiddle around the BIOS/firmware MacIntel equivalent (do you guys even know how to get to OpenFirmware or the firmware startup disk selector?

This is speculation on your part. Although we know the developer Macs aren't necessarily representative of the shipping product, you can install XP on them now simply by inserting a bootable Windows CD into the drive at startup - it's not hard.

The existing BIOS also contains a menu to choose a boot partition once multiples are installed. Again, we don't know if that'll remain but as-is, it's not hard.

Arkham_c · Aug 3, 2005, 10:50 AM

The other thing is, VirtualPC will be a viable solution on MacTel. Because the instructions will need no translation, it should offer near real-time performance, much like VirtualPC on Windows does now.

mhuie · Aug 3, 2005, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Arkham_c

The other thing is, VirtualPC will be a viable solution on MacTel. Because the instructions will need no translation, it should offer near real-time performance, much like VirtualPC on Windows does now.

VirtualPC will not be a viable alternative. Have you ever tried playing games on it before? It is not designed for that purpose nor will it ever be.

mhuie · Aug 3, 2005, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

Most clueless joes don't ask around for help...and if they do, they wouldn't know who to ask, so they'll ask some slightly less clueless joe. And if you think they'll easily find someone that knows how to install Windows XP on a MacIntel, you're kidding yourself. The process will probably much different than what it is on PCs right now. And, the slightly less clueless joes wouldn't even know how to install an alternate OS on a different partition in the first place.

And even if you think everything I said is false, I doubt very many average joe would go through all the trouble of asking someone else to install Windows XP on their computer to play games.

As much as I'd like to believe you guys, the real world indicates that only the hardest of hardcore gamers will bother installing XP to play games. I'd love to tell everyone that buying a MacIntel is a huge plus because you're getting two computers in one (or 3 or 4 if you're going to install Linux and other OSs) but this means nothing to 90% of people if it's harder to do/setup than sending an e-mail or browsing the web.

I somehow doubt that Apple will give a cute interface like the 'Startup Disk' preference pane to let you switch between OS X and Windows. MS sure as hell doesn't even have anything an equivalent to the 'Startup Disk' preference pane.

To switch between OS X and Windows you'll have to fiddle around the BIOS/firmware MacIntel equivalent (do you guys even know how to get to OpenFirmware or the firmware startup disk selector? I do, and maybe some of you do too, but I'll be damned if anyone else but geeks have seen those screens)...now if you're telling me that average people will start mucking in there overnight, you're sadly mistaken.

If its worth it to get better performance running games on XP than having to shell out more money for a better video card just to get similar results, people will do it. I'm sure it will be a very simple install. It may not be viable now, but you can be sure there will be an easy solution to dual boot XP.

The iMac Man · Aug 3, 2005, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by mhuie

VirtualPC will not be a viable alternative. Have you ever tried playing games on it before? It is not designed for that purpose nor will it ever be.

Did you read a word he said?

The reason VPC is slow now is because it is emulating an x86 processor.

Buuuuuut, once Macs actually have x86 processors, VPC will FLY! It would be essentially the same as running a Windows PC.

a2daj · Aug 3, 2005, 05:21 PM

The Windows version of VPC is slow too.

danman · Aug 3, 2005, 06:28 PM

Have you even used VPC on a PC? Not very fast. And the graphics are slow.

The iMac Man · Aug 3, 2005, 06:29 PM

I don't recall saying anything about VPC on a PC...

I'm talking Mactel VPC vs Current Mac VPC....

Horsepoo!!! · Aug 3, 2005, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Brad Oliver

This is speculation on your part. Although we know the developer Macs aren't necessarily representative of the shipping product, you can install XP on them now simply by inserting a bootable Windows CD into the drive at startup - it's not hard.

The existing BIOS also contains a menu to choose a boot partition once multiples are installed. Again, we don't know if that'll remain but as-is, it's not hard.

Lets just say it's an educated guess that is mostly likely going to turn out to be right. Take it as you will.

Brad Oliver · Aug 4, 2005, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

Lets just say it's an educated guess that is mostly likely going to turn out to be right. Take it as you will.

What makes your guess "educated"? Certainly not the actual behavior of the Transition Kit Macs.

mhuie · Aug 4, 2005, 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by The iMac Man

Did you read a word he said?

The reason VPC is slow now is because it is emulating an x86 processor.

Buuuuuut, once Macs actually have x86 processors, VPC will FLY! It would be essentially the same as running a Windows PC.

I can read, you just don't the get point.

Mactel VPC will run Windows faster than PPC VPC, similar to VPC for Windows, we get that. The point you DON'T get is that it only offers basic video emulation. Don't expect to play games on it.

Horsepoo!!! · Aug 4, 2005, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by Brad Oliver

What makes your guess "educated"? Certainly not the actual behavior of the Transition Kit Macs.

The 'educated' come from Apple's philosophy of 'trying' to offer the best GUI to its customers. Trying is in quotes because sometimes (not very often but it happens) they miss the mark...this could very well happen and they might ship a clunky BIOS with their Macs and the 'most avanced operating system'. But I severly doubt it.