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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > macOS > How do I cut and paste?

How do I cut and paste?
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gotanproject
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Apr 18, 2006, 08:25 PM
 
I am kinda new to the MBP so bare with me please

I am having major problems organizing my files and folders on my external hard drive.

I would like to cut some mp3 files and paste it into a new folder (both all in external drive) but the cut function does not seem to work

The files just get copied over thus I have two same files each on different folders....

How do I freaking cut and paste ???

And also is there some kinda software I can use to organize the files I have a lot easier than using Mac finder??
     
chabig
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Apr 18, 2006, 08:26 PM
 
We don't cut and paste files on the Mac. We copy them over and then delete the originals.

Chris
     
mduell
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Apr 18, 2006, 08:28 PM
 
Copy, paste, delete or drag and drop while holding one of the modifier keys.

OSX doesn't support cutting files.
     
gotanproject  (op)
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Apr 18, 2006, 08:33 PM
 
wut?!?!? I had no idea.
Is there anyway I can just move the files into 1 folder without copying them??
I have lots of files I want to move to different folders, is there a move file function then???
Or should I just use macdrive in windows xp and seperate the files???
     
CharlesS
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Apr 18, 2006, 08:58 PM
 
If you drag-and-drop files to another folder on the same disk, it'll move them. If you're moving it to a different disk, it'll copy by default, but if you hold down the Command key it will move them instead.

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Apr 18, 2006, 09:55 PM
 
damn - accidental post
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stevesnj
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Apr 18, 2006, 10:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS
...but if you hold down the Command key it will move them instead.
I have been using mac since 1999 and i never knew this...thanks
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Gee4orce
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Apr 19, 2006, 04:47 AM
 
Remember - the Mac always tries to help you do what you want, whilst making it harder for you to accidentally do something you didn't mean to do !

To move some files, you just drag them (just like you would move files of paper on a desk). But if you are moving to a different disk, it's more likely that you actually want to COPY them - so that's what it does by default. Imagine if you were copying some files on a a removable disk for a friend - if you dragged them over and the Mac MOVED them, you might, at a later date, have a horrible realisation that you no longer have those files on your computer at all !

As someone said, you can hold the Command (Apple) key to force a MOVE instead of a COPY - this actually copies the files, and then deletes the originals.

Don't even get me started on the wrongness of applying the cut'n'paste metaphor to file management !!! Imagine if you CUT the files, and then got distracted, and never remembered to paste them again - what happens to those files ? Have they been deleted ? What happens if you copy something else in the mean time ? Are the original files lost forever ? These are just a couple of the reasons why cut'n'pasting files is a BAD metaphor.
     
mduell
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Apr 19, 2006, 03:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gee4orce
Don't even get me started on the wrongness of applying the cut'n'paste metaphor to file management !!! Imagine if you CUT the files, and then got distracted, and never remembered to paste them again - what happens to those files ? Have they been deleted ? What happens if you copy something else in the mean time ? Are the original files lost forever ? These are just a couple of the reasons why cut'n'pasting files is a BAD metaphor.
Why shouldn't it work just like cutting and pasting text or graphics in other programs?

Or Apple could do something like what MS did with Office years ago and offer a multi-item clipboard.
     
Big Mac
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Apr 19, 2006, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
Why shouldn't it work just like cutting and pasting text or graphics in other programs?
Because the metaphor just should not be extended to file management. Apple compromised when it put in copy and paste of files, and the decision was obviously made at that time not to support cutting files.

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mduell
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Apr 19, 2006, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac
Because the metaphor just should not be extended to file management.
Since users are asking for this feature, doesn't that imply it should be done?

If it's available you have the choice of using it or not using it. If you don't think it should be done, don't use it, but don't argue in favor of depriving the rest of us.
     
Big Mac
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Apr 19, 2006, 05:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
Since users are asking for this feature, doesn't that imply it should be done?

If it's available you have the choice of using it or not using it. If you don't think it should be done, don't use it, but don't argue in favor of depriving the rest of us.
I would offer in response the classic cliché, "If everyone were to jump off a bridge. . ." Many users who come from the Windows world also would prefer application windows that fill the entire screen - should Apple give into those demands simply because users want it? Many Windows users would like to see Apple ship a two button mouse and trackpad as a stock accessory - should Apple give into that demand simply because users want it? Apple does not make changes to the Mac's UI just because of user demand. That's more of a M$ approach to doing business. Instead, Apple makes changes when its designers and experts see fit to do so. They obviously viewed the cut and paste metaphor for file management to be deficient when they added copy and paste, so it's pretty unlikely they'll revisit that decision simply because Windows expatriates like it.

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JKT
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Apr 19, 2006, 06:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
Since users are asking for this feature, doesn't that imply it should be done?

If it's available you have the choice of using it or not using it. If you don't think it should be done, don't use it, but don't argue in favor of depriving the rest of us.
Users are asking for the feature simply because they don't yet know how to do it the Mac way, not because they are being deprived of the feature - it is just done differently, much like other things compared to a Windows PC. What you are really asking for is that it be done the particular way that you are used to from using Windows.

Personally, I'm not so against the idea - it does break the metaphor of a desktop, yes, but it can make life easier, so why not? Just don't call it "Cut", call it "Move" instead because that is what you are really doing. Incidentally, NeXT had a "Shelf" that you could drop things onto to allow you to move them to other locations. I don't know how well that metaphor worked, but it seems like a good one. Presumably Apple didn't like it though, so it never made it into OS X.
     
mduell
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Apr 19, 2006, 06:20 PM
 
After years of users asking for a better mouse, Apple did begin shipping the multi-button Mighty Mouse.
As far as application windows filling the screen, I assumed the orange button did that. But you know better than I.

All of the examples you provided relate to adding features, not remove them, and none of them are major or would require significant development effort. Why not let the users decide what they want to do and how they want to do it?

This may be one point where we agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by JKT
You aren't being deprived of the feature - it is just done in a different way on the Mac, much like other things compared to a PC. What you are really asking for is that it be done a particular way that you are used to from using Windows.
It's not "just" a different way, it's missing a way.
Other operating systems offer two ways to copy files (drag and drop or copy and paste) and two ways to move files (drag and drop with modifier keys or cut and paste). Why should OSX limit the user by offering only three of the four options? The existance of the fourth option doesn't force you, or BigMac, or anyone else to use it.
     
Chuckit
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Apr 19, 2006, 06:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
Since users are asking for this feature, doesn't that imply it should be done?

If it's available you have the choice of using it or not using it. If you don't think it should be done, don't use it, but don't argue in favor of depriving the rest of us.
The Mac is not really about infinite customizability. The operating system with the philosophy you are looking for ("If anybody wants it, we should include it!") is Linux.
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Chuckit
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Apr 19, 2006, 06:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
As far as application windows filling the screen, I assumed the orange button did that. But you know better than I.
The orange button?
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chabig
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Apr 19, 2006, 08:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
It's not "just" a different way, it's missing a way.
Other operating systems offer two ways to copy files (drag and drop or copy and paste) and two ways to move files (drag and drop with modifier keys or cut and paste). Why should OSX limit the user by offering only three of the four options? The existance of the fourth option doesn't force you, or BigMac, or anyone else to use it.
Mark, the reason it doesn't make sense is simply this--when you "cut" something, it means that you want it gone. You may or may not do something with it afterward, but you want it gone for now. That is the metaphor that simply doesn't work with files.

Chris
     
CharlesS
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Apr 19, 2006, 08:21 PM
 
I'd be fine with it if they called it something like "Pick Up" and "Drop", but calling it Cut and Paste is bad because that's not the way cut and paste works. For example, Cut is supposed to be an action which deletes whatever's selected and then puts it on the Clipboard. But on Windows, Cut can't be used to delete a file - it just marks it, and moves it when you choose "Paste". That's not what Cut is supposed to mean, and it breaks the Cut and Paste metaphor.

Also, when you normally cut something in an application, it puts a snapshot of the data at that particular moment into the Clipboard. Cutting a file in Windows does no such thing, and if changes are made to the file before the user selects Paste somewhere, the file that gets "pasted" will include all the modifications from after the time the file was cut, rather than a snapshot of the file at the time it was cut. This argument applies to Copy and Paste for files as well, something I also disagree with. The last time this argument came up, someone put it very succinctly - if it doesn't walk like a duck, and doesn't quack like a duck, why call it a duck?

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mduell
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Apr 19, 2006, 10:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by chabig
Mark, the reason it doesn't make sense is simply this--when you "cut" something, it means that you want it gone. You may or may not do something with it afterward, but you want it gone for now. That is the metaphor that simply doesn't work with files.
Sure it does. If you want to remove text, you can either delete it (leaving no option to get it back) or cut it (keeping the option open of pasting it somewhere later). The same process works great for me with files.

Originally Posted by Chuckit
The orange button?
Sorry, green.
     
chabig
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Apr 19, 2006, 10:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
Sure it does. If you want to remove text, you can either delete it (leaving no option to get it back) or cut it (keeping the option open of pasting it somewhere later). The same process works great for me with files.
So how should the system handle it if you forget to paste the file somewhere? How would it "know" that you forgot?

Chris
     
mduell
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Apr 19, 2006, 11:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by chabig
So how should the system handle it if you forget to paste the file somewhere? How would it "know" that you forgot?
The file would be gone when I cut or copied another file... just like cut text would be gone when I cut or copied other text.
     
chabig
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Apr 19, 2006, 11:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
The file would be gone when I cut or copied another file... just like cut text would be gone when I cut or copied other text.
And that is the reason it's a bad idea. People would lose files/work/photos/financial records, etc.

Chris
     
Gee4orce
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Apr 20, 2006, 04:36 AM
 
I think the idea of renaming this functionality is a good one - 'Cut' and 'Paste' carry too much implied baggage. In fact, it's fair to say that wherever you see the menu command 'Cut' you expect the following to happen:

* the object is copied to the clipboard
* the object is removed from it's present location

- that's not what happens in Windows Explorer when you cut, which straight away should set off alarm bells that this isn't behaving like it should. The Mac is founded on consistency: that's something that we take for granted today, but imagine if every application implemented "Cut" and "Paste" differently, some immediately deleting the object, others not; can you imagine the confusion ??

There are other complexities in Window's implementation for file Cut'n'Paste. I don't remember the details, because I don't use it, but it's something to do with different file types are handled differently. And what happens if you 'paste' over files that have the same name ?

I think it's a good idea to rename these functions to something like 'Pick up' and 'Drop'. I also think that if you Pick up some files, the pointer in the Finder should change to a hand grabbing files, and stay that way until you do a 'Put back' or 'Drop'
     
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Apr 20, 2006, 04:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
The file would be gone when I cut or copied another file... just like cut text would be gone when I cut or copied other text.
Are you sure you really want that type of "functionality," mduell?

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
CharlesS
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Apr 20, 2006, 04:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gee4orce
- that's not what happens in Windows Explorer when you cut, which straight away should set off alarm bells that this isn't behaving like it should. The Mac is founded on consistency: that's something that we take for granted today, but imagine if every application implemented "Cut" and "Paste" differently, some immediately deleting the object, others not; can you imagine the confusion ??
Yes, it would be extremely irritating. Fortunately, right now the only app that I can think of that doesn't follow the proper Cut and Paste method on the Mac is Excel. All apps that aren't made by Microsoft are usually okay in this regard.

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analogika
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Apr 20, 2006, 07:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
After years of users asking for a better mouse, Apple did begin shipping the multi-button Mighty Mouse.
They've SUPPORTED multi-button mice for ages.

They didn't actually SHIP one until they could make one that they could configure as a single-button mouse out of the box without confusing people with additional buttons with identical functionality.

It is vitally important that Apple continue to ship a single-button mouse setup by default.


Originally Posted by mduell
As far as application windows filling the screen, I assumed the [green] button did that. But you know better than I.
Nope.

The green button does NOT switch to Full-screen mode. Its function is "make this window as large as necessary to display its contents".

That is completely contrary to the Windows full-screen default that says "obliterate all sense of depth and multi-tasking by obstructing access to everything else a computer user might be interested in that doesn't live in a 16x16 system tray icon/pop-up menu/tooltip atrocity".

Originally Posted by mduell
All of the examples you provided relate to adding features, not remove them, and none of them are major or would require significant development effort. Why not let the users decide what they want to do and how they want to do it?
Apple ships a sensible default based upon what works for everybody.

Things that break consistency in the interest of cutting corners are traditionally left to third-party developers.

Originally Posted by mduell
It's not "just" a different way, it's missing a way.
Other operating systems offer two ways to copy files (drag and drop or copy and paste) and two ways to move files (drag and drop with modifier keys or cut and paste). Why should OSX limit the user by offering only three of the four options? The existance of the fourth option doesn't force you, or BigMac, or anyone else to use it.
It does, however, force Apple to support it, and I can see why Apple would refuse to support something that is either fundamentally broken (if implemented as on Windows), or dangerous (if implemented properly).

It's not "just" a different way, nor is it a "missing" way, it's a BROKEN way.
     
headbirth
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Apr 20, 2006, 07:56 AM
 
Copy and paste work with files on OSX
     
WOPR
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Apr 20, 2006, 11:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by stevesnj
I have been using mac since 1999 and i never knew this...thanks
Me neither!!

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P
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Apr 20, 2006, 12:13 PM
 
I agree that Copy and Paste should be removed as features for file management. I could see a "Pick up" feature that changed the pointer into an arrow with a small logo of the file behind it, to always remind you that you were holding something, and with a new menu command for dropping it whereever you wanted - actually, that woudl be very good! - but the way Cut/Copy/Paste is implemented in OS X and Windows today is an emparassment.

The one good feature Windows has is that you can drag with the irght button instead of remembering inane keyboard combinations for moving and copying. Yes, I know them too (Cmd-option will make an alias, btw, and option will force a copy) but a contextual menu would be even better.

OS X actually supports multiple clipboards. Why Apple never made an interface for it is more than I can explain - all the hard work is done already!
     
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Apr 20, 2006, 02:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by headbirth
Copy and paste work with files on OSX
That's because Copy and Paste can work with files the exact same way they work with every other form of data, in any other application.
     
CharlesS
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Apr 20, 2006, 03:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika
That's because Copy and Paste can work with files the exact same way they work with every other form of data, in any other application.
No, it doesn't, and that is why it should be either removed or renamed.

Try this:

1. Copy a file

2. Make a change to the file

3. Paste the file

Does this result in the pasted file being identical to a snapshot of the copied file at the moment it was copied, the way it would have worked when copying and pasting anything else?

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JKT
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Apr 20, 2006, 03:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
It's not "just" a different way, it's missing a way.
Other operating systems offer two ways to copy files (drag and drop or copy and paste) and two ways to move files (drag and drop with modifier keys or cut and paste). Why should OSX limit the user by offering only three of the four options? The existance of the fourth option doesn't force you, or BigMac, or anyone else to use it.
I hope you realise that other operating systems work in different ways because of the historical deficiencies in their interfaces. Windows had to have "cut" and paste of files because of it's incredibly poor support for drag and drop. Likewise fill screen mode for windows - because of its MDI (?) UI and the absence of a menu bar (not to mention its downright lame-brainedness and stupidity... one item in the folder so let's... fill the entire screen, yay! ), it became a necessity to fill the screen with windows just so you could have an anchored toolbar.

For zoom in Mac OS, historically it used to cycle between two different views - initially between the default window size and the best fit for contents size, then between the user specified size if they changed it from the default and the best fit for contents size (some applications also have a zoom to fit available screen as well so that windows don't get overlapped by e.g. palettes). For many windows, best fit most definitely does not equate with fill screen. For some it does. The zooming should reflect that. Unfortunately, the zoom to fit feature of Mac OS is not what it used to be (e.g. look at Preview and TextEdit for really, really stupid zoom behaviour in OS X) and it is one of the niceties of yesteryear that Apple truly should polish up in OS X.
     
ism
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Apr 20, 2006, 03:27 PM
 
See this exact same thread at macosxhints + an applescript someone has written to emulate the windows functionality.
     
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Apr 20, 2006, 03:30 PM
 
OS X actually supports multiple clipboards. Why Apple never made an interface for it is more than I can explain - all the hard work is done already!
I would argue the reverse is true, i'm not sure how one would put a decent intuitive interface on that. Copy and paste works now because users aren't easily confused by it, try explaining the concept of multiple desktops to your gran and things start to become more difficult than they might first appear.
     
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Apr 20, 2006, 04:36 PM
 
As I mentioned earlier, the NeXT shelf was a potential solution to having a multiple "clipboard". Apple could have a panel that pops out from the side of the screen or a corner when moused over onto which you drag and drop your cuttings or files or folders etc. Shelf disappears once you have dropped. Go to another app or location and mouse down to the corner again and pick your item off the shelf and put it in the new location.
     
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Apr 20, 2006, 04:42 PM
 
     
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Apr 20, 2006, 05:30 PM
 
The multiple clipboard in Butler works nicely (similar to the one in Quicksilver if I remember too). Just copy several things in a row, then to paste any one of them choose your clipboard shortcut (I have mine as option-command-V) and a nice window pops up with a list of recent items copied. Choose one of them and it gets pasted it.

I think Apple could implement this easily. Under the Edit menu they add an additional item: "Copy history" or something akin to that. This has a submenu of recent copied items that lets you paste them. The shortcut key would bring up a floating window of ones to choose. This has the advantage of being able to see what is on the clipboard without going into the Finder too (what is the logic of having 'Show Clipboard' in the Finder anyway?).

In my opinion this is easier to understand than a shelf might be (for text, graphic etc. anyway). Can't you just use the Dock as a shelf by adding an item and then command-dragging it out anyway?
     
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Apr 21, 2006, 02:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by monkeybrain
Can't you just use the Dock as a shelf by adding an item and then command-dragging it out anyway?
Nope.
     
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Apr 21, 2006, 04:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by JKT
Nope.
Why? Works for me.

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...=dock+as+shelf
( Last edited by monkeybrain; Apr 21, 2006 at 04:45 AM. )
     
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Apr 21, 2006, 04:45 AM
 
But a shelf really just allows you to do an interrutptable drag operation - it's nowhere near the same thing as file Cut'n'Paste, which is what a lot of Windows switchers seem to view as the ONLY way to move files around.

It really winds me up that so much lameness has been afflicted on Windows users that it actually starts to affect the way they think ! What's even worse, is when that lameness is reto-applied to the Mac in the sake of compatibility. I rue the day three letter extensions became the way of determining file type in Mac OS

Such is life, when the dominant way of working - of thinking - is such a mutilated POS !
     
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Apr 21, 2006, 02:42 PM
 
The mac way: 1. Open the folder where the file currently resides. 2. Open the destination folder. 3. Drag the file.

The Windows way: Open the folder where the file currently resides. 2. Cut the file. 3. Open the destination folder. 4. Paste the file. How is this superior in any way to the Mac way?

My fear would be that I would 1. Cut the file 2. Get distracted 3. copy something else to the clipboard, replacing the file, thus losing it. Bad idea, for us easily distracted folks, anyway.

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Apr 21, 2006, 02:44 PM
 
Windows doesn't actually cut the file. It just marks the file as being moved, and paste moves it.
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Apr 21, 2006, 03:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by monkeybrain
It is very limited - try dragging an image to the Dock from the browser. Doesn't work. It only works for files (and not text) to move things around the Finder and not between documents or applications. Try moving the files to the Trash. Doesn't work. Try moving two or more files at a time - you can only drag one file at a time out again which is tedious to say the least. Etc.

However, it does work to achieve moving a file from one location to another in the Finder with a temporal pause in between. Useful to know.
     
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Apr 22, 2006, 06:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by ntsc
I would argue the reverse is true, i'm not sure how one would put a decent intuitive interface on that. Copy and paste works now because users aren't easily confused by it, try explaining the concept of multiple desktops to your gran and things start to become more difficult than they might first appear.
How about this way: Copy and Cut work the way they always do. The only difference is that Paste is a submenu that lets you paste that last ten things you copied, samples of which are shown in the submenu. Command-V still pastes the last item copied. Add a feature to clean the clipboard history for privacy purposes and I think you're done.
     
ntsc
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Apr 23, 2006, 04:54 AM
 
I guess that sounds ok but when i start to think about it a couple of issues immediately spring to mind. Most of these stem from the fact that the clipboard can contain many many different data types so how does one build an interface such that they are all viewable.

Your idea works well with text, but what happens if i copy a file, movie, image, email, etc? I would expect your interface idea to display the file/movie/image/ file system path but that might not always make sense to the user -- think copying an image from a website, you get some hideous /tmp location which makes sense to no one. The obvious way to fix that is to thumbnail images, and movies but then how does that work in the contextual menu, they'll be very small. I guess you could fix that using a dock/application switcher like item but then i'm not sure how that would handle text that well since the size of the wells for each item is rather square and there isn't much room to have meaningful sized text in each one.

Also, what about when you can't paste a particular media type to your current location -- does the as yet undefined interface show you things which you can't paste, or does it hide them, if it hides them what if the user assumes that there not there anymore and they've gone from the pasteboard for some reason, if it doesn't hide them that is potentially a lot of extra space for stuff the user doesn't need to see and it may annoy them that the can't paste something which is there.

I still think it's a more complex interface issue that it first appears. I'm not saying multiple pasteboards are a bad idea, they just have to implemented right otherwise they could end up being more a pain the ass that not having them at all.
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Chuckit
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Apr 23, 2006, 05:58 AM
 
Does the current interface hide Paste when you can't paste anything?
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ntsc
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Apr 23, 2006, 11:44 AM
 
it greys it out when you can't paste anything, but then its not really needing to give you way of choosing what you paste since it only pastes whats on the board at the moment.
"You can't waste a life hating people, because all they do is live their life, laughing, doing more evil."

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mduell
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Apr 23, 2006, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by chabig
And that is the reason it's a bad idea. People would lose files/work/photos/financial records, etc.
Only if they choose to use the cut option; the existance of an option doesn't compel anyone to use it.
Work, photos, and financial records can currently be lost by cutting and saving, or dragging them in the trash and emptying it; certainly we need to "protect" people from doing those too!
If the fear of losing data really is so great, Apple could implement it like Windows does, where cut files are returned to their original location if something else is placed on the clipboard (via cut or copy) before the clipboard is pasted.

Originally Posted by Big Mac
Are you sure you really want that type of "functionality," mduell?
Would I spend this much time arguing about it if I didn't?

Originally Posted by JKT
I hope you realise that other operating systems work in different ways because of the historical deficiencies in their interfaces. Windows had to have "cut" and paste of files because of it's incredibly poor support for drag and drop.
<snip>
For zoom in Mac OS, historically it used to cycle between two different views - initially between the default window size and the best fit for contents size, then between the user specified size if they changed it from the default and the best fit for contents size (some applications also have a zoom to fit available screen as well so that windows don't get overlapped by e.g. palettes). For many windows, best fit most definitely does not equate with fill screen. For some it does. The zooming should reflect that. Unfortunately, the zoom to fit feature of Mac OS is not what it used to be (e.g. look at Preview and TextEdit for really, really stupid zoom behaviour in OS X) and it is one of the niceties of yesteryear that Apple truly should polish up in OS X.
Poor support for drag and drop? Oh thanks for the laugh. If cut and paste is only to overcome some deficiency in drag and drop, why are people still clamoring to use it after over a decade of flawless drag and drop support? Because it works, and we like it.

So it used to go between default and "best fit", but that would change to default and user-specified (if, at one point, the user ever specified), but sometimes it should be full screen... uh, what was Gee4orce saying about Mac OS being founded on consistency?
Oh, and Apple's own apps break the "best" (if inconsistent) behavior described above?
     
Brass
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Apr 23, 2006, 09:37 PM
 
The true cut/copy/paste paradigm is NOT appropriate for file management.
The user demand for real cut/copy/paste in file management does NOT actually exist.

Allow me to explain...

True cut/paste means to delete the file when the cut command is issued (retaining a copy on the pasteboard). If something goes wrong before pasting, the file would be permenantly lost. This is clearly dangerous. This is not what is done when windows receives the cut command. Although not dangerous, True copying means making a complete copy (on the pasteboard) at the moment the copy command is issued. This is not what is being done when windows receives the copy command.

What users actually want is the ability to MOVE files, and to copy files in the same way the Windows allows, however this is NOT true cut/copy/paste (even though Windows uses the cut/copy/paste commands). Windows uses these command names, but it does not actually cut when issuing that command (ie, it does not make a copy and delete the original when you issue the command, only when you issue the paste command, in which case it MOVES the file). Similarly, when you issue windows' copy command, it does not make a copy at that time, but just keeps a reference to the file. It only copies it later when you issue the paste command.

So the problem is that Windows uses the wrong command names for these tasks. This creates some confusion for a lot of users. Even MS is not stupid enough to allow real cutting in their file management application (for obvious reasons).

There is no doubt that for some people having this file MOVING functionality in the Mac OS X Finder would be a very good thing. There is also no doubt that REALLY cutting and pasting files is a stupid thing to do in a file management system. However, what people really want is the MOVING functionality, NOT the cut/paste functionality. They are just confused by the command names used for it in Windows (and for copy/paste in Mac OS X).

Personally, I think the best solution would be for Apple to update the Finder to include the functionality that is desired, but to use more sensible names for the commands. I can't think of any good command names myself, but something that really describes what is actually going on, such as:

Get File
Move "the file" To Here
Copy "the file" To Here

(where "the file" is the actual name of the file being manipulated).

So to make a copy of a file, you would issue the commands:
click a file, 'Get File', click another folder, 'Copy "the file" To Here'

To move a file, you would issue the commands:
click a file, 'Get File', click another folder, 'Move "the file" To Here'

This way, the commands could be assigned keyboard shortcuts (similar to those of Cut/Copy/Paste if desired) and people could copy/move files using keyboard shortcuts the same way they do on windows AND it would not break the cut/copy/paste metaphor, AND it would not do anything inappropriate in file system management.

Everybody wins!
( Last edited by Brass; Apr 23, 2006 at 09:49 PM. )
     
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Apr 24, 2006, 12:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by ntsc
I guess that sounds ok but when i start to think about it a couple of issues immediately spring to mind. Most of these stem from the fact that the clipboard can contain many many different data types so how does one build an interface such that they are all viewable.

Your idea works well with text, but what happens if i copy a file, movie, image, email, etc? I would expect your interface idea to display the file/movie/image/ file system path but that might not always make sense to the user -- think copying an image from a website, you get some hideous /tmp location which makes sense to no one. The obvious way to fix that is to thumbnail images, and movies but then how does that work in the contextual menu, they'll be very small. I guess you could fix that using a dock/application switcher like item but then i'm not sure how that would handle text that well since the size of the wells for each item is rather square and there isn't much room to have meaningful sized text in each one.

Also, what about when you can't paste a particular media type to your current location -- does the as yet undefined interface show you things which you can't paste, or does it hide them, if it hides them what if the user assumes that there not there anymore and they've gone from the pasteboard for some reason, if it doesn't hide them that is potentially a lot of extra space for stuff the user doesn't need to see and it may annoy them that the can't paste something which is there.

I still think it's a more complex interface issue that it first appears. I'm not saying multiple pasteboards are a bad idea, they just have to implemented right otherwise they could end up being more a pain the ass that not having them at all.
Yes, it's more complex than that - but then my idea took about 15 seconds to come up with. Easiest way is of course to say "[image]" or "[movie]". Second step is to add some hint of where it came from ("image from [document name]", or "image from untitled Photoshop document"). I don't really want to add thumbnails, but a 32*32 pixel image could give a guide at least - and you know Jobs would want it. You could also have an option to "Show Clipboard panel", like the Font panel, at the bottom of the Paste submenu. This panel would then show a bigger thumbnail of each picture and allow you to play the movies.

For things that you aren't allowed to paste, make the menu item grey. Of course there is no hint WHY you aren't allowed to paste it, but then that's case with all greyed items everywhere. In general, I think there should be a tooltip when you hover over a greyed menu item to tell you why you can't do that. When Apple had Help Baloons in System 7, you could get that info through them, but of course noone ever used the Help Baloons.
     
 
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