[besson3c]

Am I the only one that finds my local celebrations leave a lot to be desired? Does the following describe yours too?

I find that these sorts of ceremonies rarely, if ever, really delve into actual patriotism or explain to little kids in particular why we have set aside this day, what it means, how American independence came about, etc. These ceremonies usually seem to amount to empty jingoism or just commercialized, sort of Christmas-like tradition. As a kid growing up in Canada while the jingoism may have been a little more reserved, I still never really understood the reason behind the day. It was and is swallowed up by loud music (often not really American themed), food stands, fireworks, sponsorships, etc.

Why don't we as North Americans try to at least give a thoughtful speech (beyond just the pledge of allegiance) or do something that makes the day a little less routine and brainless? This day is supposed to be about honoring the country, its history, etc. but I honestly find that in a way it is more insulting to the country and its people than anything, sort of like taking a pure thing and turning it into plastic crap.

Also, as far as the military presence at these sorts of events, what distinguishes Independence Day, from Memorial Day, from Veterans Day? Their presence has become pretty generic, I don't think that most people even think about this, it's almost like the three days have melded into one.

Thoughts?

[subego]

How would you do it?

[ThinkInsane]

As much as it pains me to do so, I actually agree with you Besson. I think the meaning behind these holidays has been lost. What should be days of remembrance are now excuses (with the exception of Veteran's Day, which no one seems to give a shit about) to have bbq's and drink copious amounts of beer. I too wish that people would take a bit of time to remember what it is they are celebrating. I think it's sad that people can't take a moment out of their weekend to actually think about why we are celebrating. I always try to do something to remind people about the history of the day, or the significance of it. And it's not easy. While looking for a good version of the National Anthem today to post on my facebook wall, the only one I could find that wasn't performed at a sporting event or some kind of mockery was done by a seven year-old girl. I find that depressing. Anyway, to do my part, here's my contribution to the observance. an essay by Isaac Asimov on the Star-Spangled banner:

All Four Stanzas
Isaac Asimov
I have a weakness--I am crazy, absolutely nuts, about our national anthem.

The words are difficult and the tune is almost impossible, but frequently when I'm taking a shower I sing it with as much power and emotion as I can. It shakes me up every time.

I was once asked to speak at a luncheon. Taking my life in my hands, I announced I was going to sing our national anthem--all four stanzas.

This was greeted with loud groans. One man closed the door to the kitchen, where the noise of dishes and cutlery was loud and distracting. "Thanks, Herb," I said.

"That's all right," he said. "It was at the request of the kitchen staff."

I explained the background of the anthem and then sang all four stanzas.

Let me tell you, those people had never heard it before--or had never really listened. I got a standing ovation. But it was not me - it was the anthem.

More recently, while conducting a seminar, I told my students the story of the anthem and sang all four stanzas. Again there was a wild ovation and prolonged applause. And again, it was the anthem and not me.

So now let me tell you how it came to be written.

In 1812, the United States went to war with Great Britain, primarily over freedom of the seas. We were in the right. For two years, we held off the British, even though we were still a rather weak country. Great Britain was in a life and death struggle with Napoleon. In fact, just as the United States declared war, Napoleon marched off to invade Russia. If he won, as everyone expected, he would control Europe, and Great Britain would be isolated. It was no time for her to be involved in an American war.

At first, our seamen proved better than the British. After we won a battle on Lake Erie in 1813, the American commander, Oliver Hazard Perry, sent the message "We have met the enemy and they are ours." However, the weight of the British navy beat down our ships eventually. New England, hard-hit by a tightening blockade, threatened secession.

Meanwhile, Napoleon was beaten in Russia and in 1814 was forced to abdicate. Great Britain now turned its attention to the United States, launching a three-pronged attack. The northern prong was to come down Lake Champlain toward New York and seize parts of New England. The southern prong was to go up the Mississippi, take New Orleans and paralyze the west. The central prong was to head for the mid-Atlantic states and then attack Baltimore, the greatest port south of New York. If Baltimore was taken, the nation, which still hugged the Atlantic coast, could be split in two. The fate of the United States, then, rested to a large extent on the success or failure of the central prong.

The British reached the American coast, and on August 24, 1814, took Washington, D. C. Then they moved up the Chesapeake Bay toward Baltimore. On September 12, they arrived and found 1000 men in Fort McHenry, whose guns controlled the harbor. If the British wished to take Baltimore, they would have to take the fort.

On one of the British ships was an aged physician, William Beanes, who had been arrested in Maryland and brought along as a prisoner. Francis Scott Key, a lawyer and friend of the physician, had come to the ship to negotiate his release. The British captain was willing, but the two Americans would have to wait. It was now the night of September 13, and the bombardment of Fort McHenry was about to start.

As twilight deepened, Key and Beanes saw the American flag flying over Fort McHenry. Through the night, they heard bombs bursting and saw the red glare of rockets. They knew the fort was resisting and the American flag was still flying. But toward morning the bombardment ceased, and a dread silence fell. Either Fort McHenry had surrendered and the British flag flew above it, or the bombardment had failed and the American flag still flew.

As dawn began to brighten the eastern sky, Key and Beanes newspapers and swept the nation. Someone noted that the worstared out at the fort, tyring to see which flag flew over it. He and the physician must have asked each other over and over, "Can you see the flag?"

After it was all finished, Key wrote a four stanza poem telling the events of the night. Called "The Defence of Fort M'Henry," it was published in ds fit an old English tune called "To Anacreon in Heaven" --a difficult melody with an uncomfortably large vocal range. For obvious reasons, Key's work became known as "The Star Spangled Banner," and in 1931 Congress declared it the official anthem of the United States.

Now that you know the story, here are the words. Presumably, the old doctor is speaking. This is what he asks Key

Oh! say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?

And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof thro' the night that our flag was still there.
Oh! say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave,
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?


"Ramparts," in case you don't know, are the protective walls or other elevations that surround a fort. The first stanza asks a question. The second gives an answer

On the shore, dimly seen thro' the mist of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep.
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?

Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected, now shines on the stream
'Tis the star-spangled banner. Oh! long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

"The towering steep" is again, the ramparts. The bombardment has failed, and the British can do nothing more but sail away, their mission a failure.

In the third stanza, I feel Key allows himself to gloat over the American triumph. In the aftermath of the bombardment, Key probably was in no mood to act otherwise.

During World War II, when the British were our staunchest allies, this third stanza was not sung. However, I know it, so here it is

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has washed out their foul footstep's pollution.

No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

The fourth stanza, a pious hope for the future, should be sung more slowly than the other three and with even deeper feeling.

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation,
Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the Heav'n - rescued land
Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserved us a nation.

Then conquer we must, for our cause is just,
And this be our motto--"In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

I hope you will look at the national anthem with new eyes. Listen to it, the next time you have a chance, with new ears.

And don't let them ever take it away.

--Isaac Asimov, March 1991

YouTube - Star Spangled Banner 7 yr old most incredible singer

And for our neighbors to the north, Happy Canada Day
YouTube - Paul Filek Singing Oh Canada for the nhl

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by subego 

How would you do it?

Well, at this point I don't think we can take away the beer and BBQs and all of that, but in addition to we can certainly add something a little more thoughtful. Some sort of reflective poem, essay, speech excerpt, something that was pretty provocative and not just insipid greeting card/email forward sort of patriotism, but something exactly like what ThinkInsane has provided (thanks for that!)

Some people have sort of gently pushed back at the commercialism of Christmas via various means, doing the same sort of thing with these secular national holidays would be a good start.

[lpkmckenna]

It's worth mentioning, for those unaware, that the French and English lyrics of "O Canada" are completely different. And the French lyrics are older. Here's the French, translated to English...

O Canada!
Land of our forefathers,
Thy brow is wreathed with a glorious
garland of flowers.
As is thy arm ready to wield the sword,
So also is it ready to carry the cross.
Thy history is an epic
Of the most brilliant exploits.
Thy valour steeped in faith
Will protect our homes and our rights

[ghporter]

I grew up in the Detroit area, and from June 30 through July 5, it was celebration after celebration. Lots of enthusiastic, community-based partying, but also lots of "this is what it's about" stuff. It didn't hurt that a lot of people needed educating about Dominion Day on my side of the river, and probably a bunch needed to know more about Independence day on the other side.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I grew up in the Detroit area, and from June 30 through July 5, it was celebration after celebration. Lots of enthusiastic, community-based partying, but also lots of "this is what it's about" stuff. It didn't hurt that a lot of people needed educating about Dominion Day on my side of the river, and probably a bunch needed to know more about Independence day on the other side.

Have things changed over the years, from your perspective?

[ghporter]

Well I don't live there anymore. But I lived in Austin, Texas for several years, and the city fireworks were also a big, community thing, with the Austin Symphony playing lots and lots of good music as it got dark, climaxing with "The 1812 Overture" punctuated by the Texas Guard firing howitzers for the scored canon fire-and cuing the start of the fireworks. That was in the mid-80s. Today it's not on Auditorium Shores anymore, it's way too crowded, and it no longer feels "community." It's more "outdoor entertainment" to me, with "official vendors" instead of the raspa guys... It just doesn't feel like a town getting together to celebrate independence.

I JUST came back in from watching the Sea World fireworks from the sidewalk three houses down. THIS was community; lots of families out on the curb and sidewalk with tons of kids and lots of little multi-family parties. Not any real mention of the reason for the celebration, but at least it's my community going about it.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

I worked.

You slackers should be more patriotic by making your country some money

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Also, as far as the military presence at these sorts of events, what distinguishes Independence Day, from Memorial Day, from Veterans Day? Their presence has become pretty generic, I don't think that most people even think about this, it's almost like the three days have melded into one.

I forgot to answer this in my previous post. Memorial day began as a day of remembrance, then called Decoration Day, for the Union soldiers that lost their lives during the Civil War. After WW1 it encompassed all U.S. servicemen/women that that gave their lives serving their country.

Veterans Day marks the armistice that ended WW1. In the 1950's it was expanded to honor all those that serve their country, past and present. As a side note, it is inappropriate to wish a veteran "Happy Veterans Day". While the intent is good, the proper thing to say is "Thank you for your service".

Of course Independence Day marks the occasion when the Continental Congress officially told King George 3, in writing "go blow yourself, we're starting our own country". I paraphrased there a bit, but I think that captured the gist of it.

[besson3c]

ThinkInsane: the problem is Joe Sixpack has no idea of any of that stuff... What to do?

[Dork.]

Get drunk?

In the spirit of international cooperation, I drank Labatt's all weekend.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

ThinkInsane: the problem is Joe Sixpack has no idea of any of that stuff... What to do?

Educate him if possible. As with Veterans Day, where you could tell him something like this: "Did you know that the 11th day of the 11th month was chosen as the day the armistice between the Central Powers and Allied Powers was signed, ending hostilities in the Great War? And some time after The Great War became 'The First World War,' it was changed to honor all U.S. veterans?" For Independence Day, when Joe asks "why aren't you drunk yet?" you can say "I'm remembering the people who died so that I could enjoy this excellent day."

Some people go to the Alamo and gawk and carry on. I can't go there without remembering that people died there standing for something. I imagine that if I ever get to Normandy, or Flanders, I will be similarly moved.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

Get drunk?

In the spirit of international cooperation, I drank Labatt's all weekend.

Ewwww.... you realize that Labatt's is the Bud Lite of Canada, right?

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Ewwww.... you realize that Labatt's is the Bud Lite of Canada, right?

It's cheap, there, and not Genny Light. That was my only criteria.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

It's cheap, there, and not Genny Light. That was my only criteria.

So is my urine! I'll even undercut the Labatt's Brewing Company!

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

ThinkInsane: the problem is Joe Sixpack has no idea of any of that stuff... What to do?

I take issue with your premise. The majority of Americans take this day to celebrate our country and pay homage to everything we've built as a nation. Why do you have this view that the majority of Americans are stupid and ignorant? Sure, theres lot of people who are, but they don't represent the hard-working Americans who do all they can to live the dream. Those people that make this society work. They are the ones who appreciate this holiday because they are the ones who had to work for it.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

I take issue with your premise. The majority of Americans take this day to celebrate our country and pay homage to everything we've built as a nation. Why do you have this view that the majority of Americans are stupid and ignorant? Sure, theres lot of people who are, but they don't represent the hard-working Americans who do all they can to live the dream. Those people that make this society work. They are the ones who appreciate this holiday because they are the ones who had to work for it.

I think this is pretty naive.

The majority of *people* are of average or below average intelligence, and being so they are essentially go-with-the-flow types and not movers and shakers. The go-with-the-flow types spent the 4th of July doing all of the default sorts of stuff: drinking beer, BBQing meats, and hanging out with family. Nothing wrong with that, but the majority of them also probably didn't spend more than 2 minutes thinking about the day, because I fail to see how the day and all of the plastic distractions that go along with it would inspire somebody who doesn't normally think about much to change their habits for the day.

I wouldn't go so far as to call the go-with-the-flow types "stupid", but if you aren't using what intelligence you have to challenge yourself to go beyond that you aren't necessarily living up to the potential of your intellect either, and those that don't generally are not considered all that smart in my books either.

The world is filled with people that are not terribly smart. I don't care if this sounds elitist either, I'm tired of being politically correct about this, this is all true. The vast majority of people = not terribly impressive.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

The majority of *people* are of average or below average intelligence...

I'm pretty sure *exactly half* of the world is below average intelligence.

[Snow-i]

I would describe your view as politically fashionable in place of "not being politically correct."

your view of the people in this country is saddening, arrogant, and disgusting. I'm not denying your assertion that theres plenty of idiots abound - but your saying the majority of this country doesn't understand the 4th of July? I won't go so far as to call you an idiot for holding such a view, but you are severely misinformed by whatever channels you are getting your information about people at large. Lets keep in mind, you don't have to be educated to be smart and you don't have to be smart to be educated, so I'll save you the trouble of linking to some survey somewhere about education rates. This country (hell, the world itself) could not sustain itself for a day if the majority of people had the mental capacity you're implying they do.

And "average" intelligence means absolutely nothing on its own. Don't you remember Stat 101? Average intelligence implies only a statistical value on a distribution, it says nothing about what that intelligence actually is. And yes, in a relatively normal distribution, most people will be of average or near average intelligence.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

I'm pretty sure *exactly half* of the world is below average intelligence.

I really hope you're joking. You must be.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

I'm pretty sure *exactly half* of the world is below average intelligence.

You are thinking of the median, not the mean.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

I would describe your view as politically fashionable in place of "not being politically correct."

your view of the people in this country is saddening, arrogant, and disgusting. I'm not denying your assertion that theres plenty of idiots abound - but your saying the majority of this country doesn't understand the 4th of July?

I said that people do not know the precise history of the day as cited by an earlier poster, but that is different from saying that people have no notion what the 4th of July is about. People have probably a lesser notion of what the 4th of July is about than they do Christmas though, which suffers from the same problem, but somewhere inside them they have a vague notion. That is not my argument, my argument is that people don't really stop and think about the actual meaning of the day. Obviously I cannot prove this generalization, except to use the public events as a reflection of all of this.

I won't go so far as to call you an idiot for holding such a view, but you are severely misinformed by whatever channels you are getting your information about people at large. Lets keep in mind, you don't have to be educated to be smart and you don't have to be smart to be educated, so I'll save you the trouble of linking to some survey somewhere about education rates. This country (hell, the world itself) could not sustain itself for a day if the majority of people had the mental capacity you're implying they do.

Which is what? What is the mental capacity of people that I'm claiming? Just checking, cause the other stuff I wrote was misunderstood by you.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I think this is pretty naive.

The majority of *people* are of average or below average intelligence, and being so they are essentially go-with-the-flow types and not movers and shakers. The go-with-the-flow types spent the 4th of July doing all of the default sorts of stuff: drinking beer, BBQing meats, and hanging out with family. Nothing wrong with that, but the majority of them also probably didn't spend more than 2 minutes thinking about the day, because I fail to see how the day and all of the plastic distractions that go along with it would inspire somebody who doesn't normally think about much to change their habits for the day.

Besson, you're like a liberal commie version of Glenn Beck. You always come on here and "innocently" ask why the people you dislike/distain have such bad qualities, and you never bother to verify if your perceived generalities are the slightest bit accurate. "Why are republicans so evil? Why are religious people so 'messed up?' Why are Americans so ignant?" You never ask yourself whether the (inevitably widely-held or overwhelming) opposing view might have some merit to it. You might as well ask why "average people" haven't stopped beating their wives yet. And the best part, when other people like Big Mac or BadK0sh do the same thing, you usually call them out for it right away. You're all like "how do you expect an honest debate when you start off with mean-spirited accusatory assumptions about the other side." Pot meet kettle.

I think a lot more "regular people" understand the fundamentals of 7/4 than they do of 12/25. I welcome you to prove me wrong, but I hope you try to do it using more than just your initial stereotypes.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Besson, you're like a liberal commie version of Glenn Beck. You always come on here and "innocently" ask why the people you dislike/distain have such bad qualities, and you never bother to verify if your perceived generalities are the slightest bit accurate. "Why are republicans so evil? Why are religious people so 'messed up?' Why are Americans so ignant?" You never ask yourself whether the (inevitably widely-held or overwhelming) opposing view might have some merit to it. You might as well ask why "average people" haven't stopped beating their wives yet. And the best part, when other people like Big Mac or BadK0sh do the same thing, you usually call them out for it right away. You're all like "how do you expect an honest debate when you start off with mean-spirited accusatory assumptions about the other side." Pot meet kettle.

I think a lot more "regular people" understand the fundamentals of 7/4 than they do of 12/25. I welcome you to prove me wrong, but I hope you try to do it using more than just your initial stereotypes.

Isn't the difference that I don't hide the fact that I'm making generalities that cannot be proven, nor do I claim what I'm saying (including the above) as absolute truth? It isn't, you can't take anything from what I've said and apply it in any meaningful way.

But that's also not my point. I'm not here to "convince" anybody that the majority of people are stupid. That point was a point I made on the side, and probably shouldn't have. My point was about why the 4th is often plasticized. At whatever frequency this occurs this doesn't really matter, but I was:

a) first checking to see if others have observed the same thing

and

b) if so, exploring why this is and how this might be changed, or even if it should be changed.

I got off into explaining the why in saying that people in general are not deep thinkers. This is where I got off track since this cannot be proven or really defended other than just stating my own personal belief based on my experience, but then again, the why is not something that anybody can really answer, is it?

I take it you don't have the same observations about the holiday, Skeleton?

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Isn't the difference that I don't hide the fact that I'm making generalities that cannot be proven, nor do I claim what I'm saying (including the above) as absolute truth? It isn't, you can't take anything from what I've said and apply it in any meaningful way.

You might as well put that disclaimer in your sig in 4 point font bess.

But that's also not my point. I'm not here to "convince" anybody that the majority of people are stupid.

Then why ask a question based on that premise?

That point was a point I made on the side, and probably shouldn't have. My point was about why the 4th is often plasticized. At whatever frequency this occurs this doesn't really matter, but I was:

a) first checking to see if others have observed the same thing

Yes, the idiots are very loud and visible.

b) if so, exploring why this is and how this might be changed, or even if it should be changed.

Its not your place to tell them how to celebrate a national holiday - even if they are doing it for the "wrong" reasons. Its their right. You have to take the bad with good.

I got off into explaining the why in saying that people in general are not deep thinkers. This is where I got off track since this cannot be proven or really defended other than just stating my own personal belief based on my experience, but then again, the why is not something that anybody can really answer, is it?

It can and has been answered. Its contrary to your "experiences", and is backed up with very simple logic.

I take it you don't have the same observations about the holiday, Skeleton?

Not for me...but yes, I see what you're talking about. There is a percentage of people who don't give two shits about this country or the 4th of July. They likely have never had to work for what they have, and don't understand what this country has given us through the efforts of our fathers, and how much sacrifice it took to get here. Its a shame really, but who am I to tell them? They will discover it on their own or bear the fruits of their ignorance. Either way its inconsequential to me, my loved ones, the majority of my countrymen, and this country's future.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Isn't the difference that I don't hide the fact that I'm making generalities that cannot be proven, nor do I claim what I'm saying (including the above) as absolute truth?

No I don't see any difference at all. In a recent example, Big Mac tried to blow off some steam in the same way, and here was your response: "do you realize how hard it is to really want to discuss this when you take a debate like this and jam up the dial on your rhetoric-o-meter as high as it can go with rhetoric such as "Socialistic and Fascistic forces" right out of the starting gate? Has this ever proven to be a good formula to good discussion? Are you looking for good discussion, or just another outlet to rant (of which you have a zillion)?"


The very same applies to you in this and many of your threads. Besson3c: do you realize how hard it is to really want to discuss this when you take a debate like this and jam up the dial on your rhetoric-o-meter as high as it can go with rhetoric such as "cluster**** of problems" right out of the starting gate? Has this ever proven to be a good formula to good discussion? Are you looking for good discussion, or just another outlet to rant (of which you have a zillion)?

No, you're not different, you're just quicker to scold others for doing the exact same thing you do. Why did you react to Big Mac in that way? Now take that answer and direct it inwards: how do you think people react to you when you do it? You do it a lot.

It isn't, you can't take anything from what I've said and apply it in any meaningful way.

Then why do you say it? You sure give the impression that you think your words have meaning.

I take it you don't have the same observations about the holiday, Skeleton?

No I don't. And in general, I steer my activities towards things I like, not things I like to complain about. I take it you're the opposite, you seek out others who like behaving differently from you so you can poo all over their parade. Maybe you like to be a sourpuss, but have you ever heard the expression "live and let live?"

[Eug]

What's wrong with BBQs and beer?

BTW... My dorm was sponsored by Labatt, so we used to get the common Labatt beers at wholesale. For years after that, my most oft consumed beer was Labatt Blue (or Bleue). It was cheap, and I was "trained" on it, as it were. That's what you get with Montréal schooling, with a drinking age of 18.

The rival dorm across the way was sponsored by Molson. My buddy who lived in that dorm drank Brador for years after that. Very effective drug pushers these beer companies are.

But alas, the brand-specific drugpushery only lasted until we could afford to spend a bit more money on beer.

[ThinkInsane]

I assure you that my politics have little or nothing in common with Besson's politics, but I can't fault what he's saying here. Do you guys honestly think a whole ton of people give much thought to what these holidays mean, the sacrifice they represent? Personally, I think it's a sad commentary that such a monumental day in the history of this country gets so little thought regarding the actual history. I'm glad that people take the opportunity to get together with their family and friends. I really am. But I believe it's gotten to the point that it's not to celebrate the birth of this nation, just an excuse to have a bbq. Have your bbq, just don't forget why the day is special. Take a moment to explain to your kids why we have a day off from work, why we have fireworks, why there is a parade. My family are immigrants that came from a shitty situation, so it was never something that was taken for granted. We come from a place where the freedoms that are often taken for granted here didn't apply to us, and we were thankful for the opportunities we found here, and thankful for those that made it so. Memorial day was a day to celebrate the sacrifices of so many for their country. Independence Day was a day to celebrate those that created a country that gave us a chance. It's not that people are stupid, it's not that they are uneducated. I think it's just that as time goes on, people are less interested in the reason for a holiday, and more interested in the fact that they get a day off from work.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

I assure you that my politics have little or nothing in common with Besson's politics, but I can't fault what he's saying here. Do you guys honestly think a whole ton of people give much thought to what these holidays mean, the sacrifice they represent? Personally, I think it's a sad commentary that such a monumental day in the history of this country gets so little thought regarding the actual history. I'm glad that people take the opportunity to get together with their family and friends. I really am. But I believe it's gotten to the point that it's not to celebrate the birth of this nation, just an excuse to have a bbq. Have your bbq, just don't forget why the day is special. Take a moment to explain to your kids why we have a day off from work, why we have fireworks, why there is a parade. My family are immigrants that came from a shitty situation, so it was never something that was taken for granted. We come from a place where the freedoms that are often taken for granted here didn't apply to us, and we were thankful for the opportunities we found here, and thankful for those that made it so. Memorial day was a day to celebrate the sacrifices of so many for their country. Independence Day was a day to celebrate those that created a country that gave us a chance. It's not that people are stupid, it's not that they are uneducated. I think it's just that as time goes on, people are less interested in the reason for a holiday, and more interested in the fact that they get a day off from work.

I don't really see how our politics are relevant here, but thank you for making this argument, well said!

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

Do you guys honestly think a whole ton of people give much thought to what these holidays mean, the sacrifice they represent?

Yes. Maybe it's because I work at a university, or maybe it's because Seattle is just a city full of intellectuals (rolleyes), or maybe it's because I'm right and you're wrong. But I can't think of a single example at any time in my whole life where I looked at someone in person and doubted that they knew what the 4th of July was supposed to celebrate (or that they cared (if they were American)). Honestly, aren't most of the complaints about Americans that they are too patriotic, and too inwardly focused? Of all the holidays, I think that America-day is about the least in danger of being misunderstood. Really.

Personally, I think it's a sad commentary that such a monumental day in the history of this country gets so little thought regarding the actual history.

Exactly what historical aspects do you fear are forgotten?

I assure you that my politics have little or nothing in common with Besson's politics, but I can't fault what he's saying here.

Do you also think that July 4th has become more "lost" to consumerism than Christmas has? I think that's a preposterous stance.

[Big Mac]

Personally speaking, my brother and I found no reason to celebrate the 4th this year, given the pathetic and rapidly disintegrating condition of our once great country. You can be sure the founding fathers wouldn't be celebrating if they could see America today.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Yes. Maybe it's because I work at a university, or maybe it's because Seattle is just a city full of intellectuals (rolleyes), or maybe it's because I'm right and you're wrong. But I can't think of a single example at any time in my whole life where I looked at someone in person and doubted that they knew what the 4th of July was supposed to celebrate (or that they cared (if they were American)). Honestly, aren't most of the complaints about Americans that they are too patriotic, and too inwardly focused? Of all the holidays, I think that America-day is about the least in danger of being misunderstood. Really.

All I'm saying is that a lot of people take the day for granted, and I find that sad.

Exactly what historical aspects do you fear are forgotten?

Just little things, like who we got our independence from
A Quarter of Americans Know Little About U.S. Independence - DailyFinance

Do you also think that July 4th has become more "lost" to consumerism than Christmas has? I think that's a preposterous stance.

No, I don't. I'm not concerned that they are going to start putting out Independence Day merchandise the day after Easter or any of the nonsense that goes on around Christmas. But the last time I went to the local "official" July 4th celebration, I noticed people around me arguing over over who was going to have to go wait in the beer line while the symphony performed the national anthem. I noticed people that couldn't be bothered to remove their stupid hats. I noticed people that didn't bother getting up off of their blankets because to them it was just a part of a concert and they were waiting for the fireworks to start. And I find that terribly sad. If that's not how it is where you live, good. It's heartening to hear that.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Eug 

BTW... My dorm was sponsored by Labatt, so we used to get the common Labatt beers at wholesale.

Wow! I should have gone to school in Canada....

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

I noticed people that couldn't be bothered to remove their stupid hats. I noticed people that didn't bother getting up off of their blankets because to them it was just a part of a concert and they were waiting for the fireworks to start. And I find that terribly sad. If that's not how it is where you live, good. It's heartening to hear that.

To me this indicates that the rituals you value are falling out of favor, not that people are failing to honor the event with rituals (rituals that are meaningful for them). Barbecue, fireworks and American-composed fanfare are rituals too. Personally I've never seen the point of taking off hats and hand-over-heart, these are archaic to me, not meaningful. If fireworks and fanfare were some day superseded by something as hum-drum and taking off of hats, I would consider that to be objectively a down-grade of ritual, more so than vice versa.

[ThinkInsane]

Ok, so we're at the point where things that mean something to me don't to you. Where's that leave us? I'll continue to feel the way I do, you'll continue to feel the way you do, nothing is going to change that, so I'll politely bow out of the conversation. I do sincerely hope you enjoyed your holiday.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

Ok, so we're at the point where things that mean something to me don't to you. Where's that leave us?

It leaves us with what I told besson3c: live and let live. Sound about right?

I hope you had a great holiday too

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

Ok, so we're at the point where things that mean something to me don't to you. Where's that leave us? I'll continue to feel the way I do, you'll continue to feel the way you do, nothing is going to change that, so I'll politely bow out of the conversation. I do sincerely hope you enjoyed your holiday.

And this my friend, is a primary reason to celebrate the 4th of July. The fact that we as a society can have our own opinions and own free will because of the country we live in, to me, signifies the 4th.

Beer, Maryland blues, and BBQ are also expressions of my freedom. And to me, so is your opinion.

Happy belated fourth of July.

[Snow-i]

Oh and don't forget fireworks over the Severn.

[sek929]

I think this sums up nicely how the 4th should be celebrated.

I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated, by succeeding Generations, as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be solemnized with Pomp and Parade, with
Shows, Games, Sports, Guns, Bells, Bonfires and Illuminations from one end of this Continent to the other from this Time forward forever more.

~ John Adams

I think we celebrate the 4th exactly the way we ought to. It's meant to be a day of grandiose celebration, not solemn remembrance.

[ebuddy]

So... is it acceptable to get all messed up and play with explosives? Just checkin'.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

So... is it acceptable to get all messed up and play with explosives? Just checkin'.

Yes, but not at the same time. I'd go with the "play with explosives" first, and get to the messed up part later.

[andi*pandi]

cool John Adams quote.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by sek929 

I think this sums up nicely how the 4th should be celebrated.

I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated, by succeeding Generations, as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be solemnized with Pomp and Parade, with
Shows, Games, Sports, Guns, Bells, Bonfires and Illuminations from one end of this Continent to the other from this Time forward forever more.

~ John Adams

I think we celebrate the 4th exactly the way we ought to. It's meant to be a day of grandiose celebration, not solemn remembrance.

Fine, but then what about Memorial Day? That seems to be celebrated the same way, at least around my neck of the woods.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Fine, but then what about Memorial Day? That seems to be celebrated the same way, at least around my neck of the woods.

Memorial day, to me, is a different facet of the same thing.

All of those brothers, fathers, sisters, mothers, sons, and daughters gave their lives for this country...because they believed in the fourth of July (what it represents). To me, its much the same thing. What better way to celebrate their sacrifices then to exercise the freedoms they sacrificed for? Memorial day is both a day for remembrance and one for celebration. Celebration of the countless American heroes who died in the name of freedom.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

Memorial day, to me, is a different facet of the same thing.

All of those brothers, fathers, sisters, mothers, sons, and daughters gave their lives for this country...because they believed in the fourth of July (what it represents). To me, its much the same thing. What better way to celebrate their sacrifices then to exercise the freedoms they sacrificed for? Memorial day is both a day for remembrance and one for celebration. Celebration of the countless American heroes who died in the name of freedom.

It is clear to me that different people have different ideas about this day. I have been at a whole bunch of honor guard TAPS presentations on both Memorial and Veterans day (as well as July 4th) which are not at all celebratory. I can see how the 4th is the most celebratory of the bunch, but these days often meld together for me, their distinctions blurred.

Part of this is because there doesn't seem to be agreement about which of these days should revolve around honoring the military and how this should be done. If, like you said, the 4th of July is about celebrating America as a symbol of American sacrifice and celebrating America in general, how can the party hearty thing and the solemn military ceremonial thing coexist?

Maybe I'm just confused.

[Snow-i]

Easily Bess.

You can honor the fallen in many ways, and they don't have to be mutually exclusive. A ceremony to remember the fallen for their lives is certainly a solemn event. Going to see the vietnam wall...well...is indescribable. That said, having a BBQ and "living the dream" is an embodiment of the ideals that these heroes died for. It is possible to appreciate both settings as a way to remember.

Also bess, in my opinion, it is one thing to remember the dead and another to go through a lot of trouble to make it look like you did. i prefer the former. If I were president, or a general, or held public office, I'd make sure the public knew of and could share in my activities that day because of my responsibility to be a leader.

I'm much the same way about Church. I am christian and I believe in God. But i don't need to go to Church every week to do my thing.

[besson3c]

Snow: I agree with everything you said, and I went too far in making implicit (or explicit, whichever it was) claims that people cannot recognize the holiday as originally designed in the midst of all of the partying. However, there is also the issue of people's comfort levels and the most appropriate sort of "default" backdrop. For instance, when you are hosting a social gathering or something you try to make the majority of the people have been invited feel comfortable, right? Is this much different than a public invitation to observe or celebrate something in a public sort of setting?

If not, does one have to factor in what is the most appropriate to the largest number of people? If you served in the military or had some other reason to be really emotional about paying respects, would you possibly be offended at Memorial Day being "taken over" by Bud Lite and 80s rock or something?

How do we decide on what these defaults should be? Are they as we believe the holiday was originally designed, or whatever is the most palatable? You could ask the same about Christmas...

These aren't leading questions, I promise you. I was a little taken aback by what I concerned the tastelessness of this year's 4th of July thing I went to, but I don't have any claim to righteousness here.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Heh. It amazes me people that spend even a minute's worth of time nosing into how other people choose to celebrate Independence Day. My advice: get that stick removal surgery already, and if possible, see if there's a cure for the busybody gene. You'll enjoy life a lot more. And as a side effect, maybe make some friends because other people might finally be able to tolerate your presence.

Anyway, hope everyone had a nice Whatever Day you celebrate, however the hell you chose to do so. I spent mine relaxing on a Caribbean beach. I could get used to this.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

I'm not denying your assertion that theres plenty of idiots abound - but your saying the majority of this country doesn't understand the 4th of July?

Proving him wrong is easy enough. Just do a street survey: walk down the street and ask people tell you about the precise history of the 4th of July.