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970 Speculation (Page 2)
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kbata
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Jun 11, 2003, 08:02 AM
 
In the past when Apple has announced new computers they have had the slower models available at the time of the announcement and the faster models available in 4-6 weeks. If the rumors are correct and they are just starting to go into production of dual 970's that would fit into that time frame. They wouldn't have to worry about loosing sales because they could start taking orders right away.
As far as the speed comparison between the current P4's and the 970's I think that the faster bus may let the 970 work up to it's potential better than the P4. For now we should be happy about the speed jump from the current crop of Apples and worry about the real world speed comparisons with the P4 till later.
     
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Jun 11, 2003, 09:30 AM
 
Originally posted by chrisutley:
I don't think they will announce anything too far in advance, otherwise it's harder for them to sell the existing lines.
They've had trouble selling their current PowerMac lines for quite a few months now, so I don't think a pre-announcement will really hurt their sales all that much.

Besides, all those people who won't order a Rev. 1 of a machine may be tempted by the closeout deals on the older models. This pre-announcement (although everything I'm hearing from my reseller friends say stock will be available immediately) may end up helping their bottom line this quarter.
     
awcopus
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Jun 11, 2003, 09:56 AM
 
There are virtually no PowerMacs in the retail channel. We're talking supermodel dry heaves thin availability of these machines. Even more so now with rumors of new Macs flying and weeks to go before June 23rd.

Apple MUST make the new PowerMacs available immediately. Just throw in a duallie, Jobs, even if it has to come a little later.

Video editing dude needs a new pair of processors...c'mon baby, ROLL'EM!
     
Shaddim
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Jun 11, 2003, 10:00 AM
 
Yup, we sell quite a few PBs, iBooks, and eMacs. But, our sales on PowerMacs have been in the toilet (so far only sold 1 this month), we'd normally have moved 4 or 5 by this time of the month. iMacs have been sluggish too, but not to the same degree.

However, our mobile sales have been way up, very strong. It seems the majority of Switchers are trading their desktop PCs for a mobile Mac (one guy pitched his Gateway P3 into the dumpster next to our store). hahaha

The 970 going into the PowerMac first is great news, it'll boost sales in that sector dramatically. IMO, this was the best move that Apple could have made.
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Staatkunde
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Jun 11, 2003, 10:15 AM
 
Power Macs aren't selling because of price. If your going to ask people to pay high prices, give them something to pay for. A new G5 CPU would make me consider spending $1300 for a monitor-less 1 yr. warranty Power Mac.

The Quark announcement might help with new Power Mac sales too.
     
Shaddim
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Jun 11, 2003, 10:31 AM
 
Originally posted by Staatkunde:
Power Macs aren't selling because of price. If your going to ask people to pay high prices, give them something to pay for. A new G5 CPU would make me consider spending $1300 for a monitor-less 1 yr. warranty Power Mac.

The Quark announcement might help with new Power Mac sales too.
Uh, no. You're wrong. People who use Macs don't have a problem spending $1500-$3000 for a new Mac, I know because I deal with these people every day. They use these machines because they work best and their livlihood depends on them. However, what these people are doing is keeping their older G4s and waiting for something substantially faster.
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-Q-
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Jun 11, 2003, 10:33 AM
 
Originally posted by awcopus:
There are virtually no PowerMacs in the retail channel. We're talking supermodel dry heaves thin availability of these machines.
Now that is a great analogy.

I have a dual on reserve with my reseller friend ("reserved" meaning if they're actually announced, I get one).
     
terrancew_hod
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Jun 11, 2003, 11:04 AM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
Uh, no. You're wrong. People who use Macs don't have a problem spending $1500-$3000 for a new Mac, I know because I deal with these people every day. They use these machines because they work best and their livlihood depends on them. However, what these people are doing is keeping their older G4s and waiting for something substantially faster.
You're right about most people who use macs don't have a problem spending that much. But how to you increase your market share of personal computers (such as get PC users to switch) when a PC user can get a faster, more expandable machine for less money?

Find ways to reduce your costs to build a machine that is affordable that a potential switcher won't lose what they are accustomed to with a PC box. And I'm not talking about the all-in-one emac/imacs. Besides if you go to a store such as CompUSA, what's the first thing you see as you go into the mac area? The 23-in flat screen and powermacs, the emac/imacs are usually pushed to the back.

Terrance
     
awcopus
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Jun 11, 2003, 11:55 AM
 
Terrance and other other gurus on increasing the Mac's market share.....

....do you really honestly care about Apple expanding its market share? I mean, it would be nice if Apple could hold a steady percentage of an increasing pie of computer users, even increase that percentage by a point or two. But honestly, unless you're running Apple or are a shareholder, isn't this beyond the realm of most people's reasonable cares?

Apple is in the middle of a banner year.

They've revolutionized music delivery, FCP4 is the most amazing piece of software I've ever seen, the new iPods are gorgeous, the new PowerBooks rock, Quicktime is more robust, iLife apps are fantastic and integrated, 10.3 Panther is imminent, DVDSP2 looks terrific....and now we've got radical new PowerMacs coming soon along with QuarkXpress 6 that will unleash tremendous, pent-up demand and make a huge difference in my and other Pro Mac users' lives.....

As a Mac user, there's never been a better time to be on this platform. As a potential switcher, all I have to do is look at the 12" PowerBook, iBooks, the eMac, or the iMac, and OS X, and I see such a qualitative difference between the cheap crap on the PC side and these affordable Apple options that switching is an obvious move IF

big IF

I care about qualitative issues more than a few hundred dollars.

Apple is better. It does cost more to care about industrial design. I'd rather spend more for computers from a company with people like Jobs and Ives, pushing the envelope with industrial design and novel approaches to software and hardware, than have Apple's machines lack the impact of such geniuses and pay less for a Mac that more people are using.

There are more cockroaches than humans, doesn't make me want to be a cockroach. Most people don't even think twice about the computer they use. Mac users think different. We are a statistically small but SIGNIFICANT part of human society, creative types who care about things that other people don't care about. Apple's future does not lie in meeting the ever-lower standards of people who don't care.
     
rm199
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Jun 11, 2003, 12:04 PM
 
When Apple sends its lawyers hunting, do you think anyone actually consults their legal counsel before removing rumors from websites? I'm very interested to find out what the US legal situation is in this regard. I can say that receiving a removal order from Apple in the EU would result in much laughter.

RM
     
Scotttheking
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Jun 11, 2003, 12:17 PM
 
Originally posted by rm199:
When Apple sends its lawyers hunting, do you think anyone actually consults their legal counsel before removing rumors from websites? I'm very interested to find out what the US legal situation is in this regard. I can say that receiving a removal order from Apple in the EU would result in much laughter.

RM
Not anymore. I'm sure they all know the procedure. Why bother talking to a lawyer anymore?

I'm sure the EU has laws on divulging trade secrets and leaking info.
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rm199
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Jun 11, 2003, 12:43 PM
 
Indeed it does, however I question the connection between 'trade secrets' and rumors. From what I can see there is a definite course of action against the person who actually stole the 'secrets' however...

Perhaps these sites remove the information not on any threat of legal action but rather to somehow stay in Apple's 'good books' as a quasi-affiliate.

RM
     
Eug
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Jun 11, 2003, 12:46 PM
 
There are more cockroaches than humans, doesn't make me want to be a cockroach. Most people don't even think twice about the computer they use. Mac users think different. We are a statistically small but SIGNIFICANT part of human society, creative types who care about things that other people don't care about. Apple's future does not lie in meeting the ever-lower standards of people who don't care.
Spoken like a true Mac snob. When Macs run cross-platform software twice as fast as PCs, maybe you'll have a valid point, but that time is not now.
     
Scotttheking
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Jun 11, 2003, 12:56 PM
 
Originally posted by awcopus:
Terrance and other other gurus on increasing the Mac's market share.....

....do you really honestly care about Apple expanding its market share? I mean, it would be nice if Apple could hold a steady percentage of an increasing pie of computer users, even increase that percentage by a point or two. But honestly, unless you're running Apple or are a shareholder, isn't this beyond the realm of most people's reasonable cares?
Yes...
Increased market share means more products for the Mac, as well as more time devoted to it on existing products.
It means add on costs are lower, as there is more of a market to spread fixed R&D costs over.

Apple is in the middle of a banner year.

They've revolutionized music delivery, FCP4 is the most amazing piece of software I've ever seen, the new iPods are gorgeous, the new PowerBooks rock, Quicktime is more robust, iLife apps are fantastic and integrated, 10.3 Panther is imminent, DVDSP2 looks terrific....and now we've got radical new PowerMacs coming soon along with QuarkXpress 6 that will unleash tremendous, pent-up demand and make a huge difference in my and other Pro Mac users' lives.....
The music store isn't bad, but it's not going to be brining in big bucks.
FCP4 may be nice, but it's not used by THAT many people. Joe Consumer doesn't care about a $1000 video editing package.
The ipods are selling, but that's just a consumer device.
The new powerbooks, are, well, meh. Go look at the intel centrino based laptops for a good laptop. Important technology like 8 hours of battery life, very cool (temperature wise), small, light.
Quicktime is great, if you use apple's video. It doesn't play many formats, you have to pay for mpeg2 support, it bugs you every time to pay $30 to upgrade it with features most people don't want, etc.
iLife apps are nice. I use iTunes, and iPhoto a little bit.
Panther is coming, yes. And hopefully it will fix so many problems that OSX has. BTW, is this the update that makes it fast enough to use?
I'm sure DVDSP2 is useful to some people, Joe Consumer not being one of them.
RUMORED new Powermacs, which may or may not have good performance at a reasonable price.
I thought most everyone switched from Quark to InDesign. We'll see soon enough, I guess.


As a Mac user, there's never been a better time to be on this platform. As a potential switcher, all I have to do is look at the 12" PowerBook, iBooks, the eMac, or the iMac, and OS X, and I see such a qualitative difference between the cheap crap on the PC side and these affordable Apple options that switching is an obvious move IF

big IF
Price/Performance.
Cheap crap on the PC side? I've got a nice pile of cheap crap and a lot of it has Apple logos.


I care about qualitative issues more than a few hundred dollars.

Apple is better. It does cost more to care about industrial design. I'd rather spend more for computers from a company with people like Jobs and Ives, pushing the envelope with industrial design and novel approaches to software and hardware, than have Apple's machines lack the impact of such geniuses and pay less for a Mac that more people are using.
A few hundred dollars more is ok, a few thousand dollars more is not.
Lately, Apple has been going for form over function, especially with regard to the powermacs.

There are more cockroaches than humans, doesn't make me want to be a cockroach. Most people don't even think twice about the computer they use. Mac users think different. We are a statistically small but SIGNIFICANT part of human society, creative types who care about things that other people don't care about. Apple's future does not lie in meeting the ever-lower standards of people who don't care.
You shouldn't have to think about it.
Mac users think different.
PC users think faster.
Sound fair?
I'd encourage you to stop making generalizations.
You might want to trim the ego down a little, too.

Look at Apple's hardware, their standards are very low. Do I have to remind you about the MDD Powermacs? One of the good things about the Dell desktops I've had the displeasure to work with is they are silent.
Maybe if they had more marketshare they would lower prices and increase R&D in the all important department of function.

This post is long enough, hopefully that gives you the answers you were looking for.
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rm199
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Jun 11, 2003, 12:59 PM
 
here here
     
awcopus
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Jun 11, 2003, 01:47 PM
 
Mr. Scotttheking,

1. When Apple's market share was closer to 10%, their computers were no more affordable up and down the line in comparisons to PCs than they are now. At the time, Apple enjoyed a far greater lead on ergonomic OS design than they do presently, SCSI was their de facto peripheral interface, yadda yadda yadda...at the end of the day, they had a larger percentage of a significantly smaller pie. The pie has grown, their market share has decreased, but Apple has something like 5 billion dollars in the bank, over twenty million users, and your dollar goes a lot farther today than it did then.

I remember clearly spending over $3000 for a IIsi with maxed out RAM (17MB) and a 13" color Apple monitor. Your theory that Apple's machines would be more affordable if their market share were greater isn't borne out historically. If anything, every computer user (PC and Mac) is enjoying less expensive computing power these days.

1. The music store may bring in big bucks if Apple can get a Windows version of it out. But beyond that, Apple has singlehandedly revolutionized legal music distribution. Apple led the way here. Period. And it's great for iPod sales and for something else, something sneakier, something that involves entrenching Quicktime as a standard for legal, high quality music delivery over the internet.

2. Joe Consumer doesn't NEED a PowerMac, ScotttheKing. I do. Joe consumer isn't filling those PCI slots, he's not maxing out the RAM, at the end of the day he's not lamenting slow rendering times. Apple has consumer machines and the PowerMacs are supposedly for Pros. People who make their living using Macs. Dell doesn't sell their high-end machines to the masses either.

3. The iPods are "just" a consumer device? Decide what you care about. If you care about consumers, you care about iPods, right? And here Apple is selling a platform neutral product that will ultimately become a major, huge market share listening device for PC users using Wintel machines USING APPLE'S QUICKTIME encoding. Reason to celebrate, right?

4. The new Powerbooks are beautiful. Show me a Centrino that looks like a Powerbook. You say looks don't matter, you say battery life of 8 hours is more important to you. I say, get yourself a Centrino-based laptop and knock yourself out. The PowerBooks are pieces of art, and light, stylish, performance is zippy enough for me. The battery issue is ubiquitous and will only be solved with the advent of micro fuel cell batteries within the next couple of years. Hello twenty-hour battery life in 2005! (fingers crossed)

5. Quicktime is what pros use to edit video. Avid, FCP, Vegas Video, Media100. They all use Quicktime. It's a rock solid industry standard that just keeps getting better. Period.
Peole whining about paying a little money for functionality that only a few people, usually pros, need is just crazy to me. Hello, welcome to the free market.

6.You like iLife. YES!

7. Panther is going to be better than Jaguar. More refined, more powerful, more responsive. OS refinement can only be a good thing.

8. DVDSP is only for Pros. Again, I was only talking about Pros. I never brought up Joe Consumer, though I mention a lot of things that clearly make this a great year for ALL users of Apple stuff.

9. There are new PowerMacs coming at WWDC. It's not just rumors. It's the fact that places are sold out on current PowerMacs and aren't being restocked with the old model. Release is all but assured. The 970 platform is going to be significantly faster than what we've had. The PowerMac line high-end will cost no more than it has historically: $3499. I and other professionals won't bat an eyelash at spending that or less for the new machines. You would have to be very cynical to believe that the overall improvement of the mobo and a new chip family from a company with awesome R&D resources isn't fantastic news for Apple users.

10. InDesign is fabulous for many things, but not ideal for long document formatting. Book publishers like Simon and Schuster and HarperCollins and R.H. have swithced to InDesign for cover designs, but stuck with Quark for book interiors. They will upgrade to Quark for X within months of this release. Mag publishers will also moveo up. The upgrade is pretty cheap and the software is an industry standard on the Mac. InDesign may win some converts in the industry (it's making inroads), and that's all good. Competition is great for users at all levels.

11. Where are you seeing these pro-PC video editing rigs that cost THOUSANDS of dollars less than Macs? It's just not the case. PCs have had performance advantages and some of my peers have jumped to take advantage of those. But really, when you're doing intense video-editing, the hardware suites for Macs or PCs are both pretty expensive.

ScotttheKing, my ego is in check. I'm just thrilled about the goings-on at Apple. The PowerMacs should be primarily exciting to professionals who make their living on the Mac, and that was really my focus. I am a "Joe Consumer" of Apple stuff, too. It's all good.

I just get a little amped when I read jabber about Apple's "dismal" market share. What a crazy analysis. Apple is a unique company that will never enjoy broad support among the masses because most people don't care enough about their computing experience to spend extra money for the stuff Apple offers. It would be a fool's errand to think Apple could own 10% of the market again. The WintelAMD side is simply too huge. But that's okay. Apple has enough devoted pro and consumer users to ensure it's survival for many years to come.

Mac Users think different. PC users think cheaper and faster. Fair enough.

P.S. Eug, Adobe's After Effects runs faster on PCs because the company REFUSED to optimize it for Altivec and for MP support. We know this because other products, like Combustion, run nearly as fast on the Mac as they do on PCs. Don't blame Apple for poor programming by third parties. Geesh. Go to:
http://digitalvideoediting.com, click on Editor's Bay, and scroll to "Performance Preferred"
     
osxisfun
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Jun 11, 2003, 02:46 PM
 
game set match?
     
awcopus
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Jun 11, 2003, 03:07 PM
 

Yes. Yes indeed.
     
Simon
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Jun 11, 2003, 03:40 PM
 
And the winner is....







awcopus.

No really, you can argue PCs are faster, you can argue they are cheaper, yadda yadda.

But, and this is absolutely clear, if you want style, if you care about detail, if you mind the whole computing experience and not just SPECint, nothing comes barely close to a Mac.

I know a BMW is cheaper and normally faster than a Mercedes. Nevertheless, I would always go for the Mercedes.
     
Scotttheking
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Jun 11, 2003, 03:50 PM
 
One thing to note, you appear to be using two different arguments.
1) General marketshare
2) Video editing marketshare
I'm responding to number 1

Originally posted by awcopus:
Mr. Scotttheking,

1. When Apple's market share was closer to 10%, their computers were no more affordable up and down the line in comparisons to PCs than they are now. At the time, Apple enjoyed a far greater lead on ergonomic OS design than they do presently, SCSI was their de facto peripheral interface, yadda yadda yadda...at the end of the day, they had a larger percentage of a significantly smaller pie. The pie has grown, their market share has decreased, but Apple has something like 5 billion dollars in the bank, over twenty million users, and your dollar goes a lot farther today than it did then.

I remember clearly spending over $3000 for a IIsi with maxed out RAM (17MB) and a 13" color Apple monitor. Your theory that Apple's machines would be more affordable if their market share were greater isn't borne out historically. If anything, every computer user (PC and Mac) is enjoying less expensive computing power these days.
6+ years ago, Macs and PCs were about equally matched. A decent P1 system cost $3K+, as did a decent Mac system.
The Mac cost a little more, but it had good technology like SCSI, faster ram, etc.
Now apple uses the same low quality commodity parts that PCs do, yet they still cost much more.
Edit: Increased markeshare means two things.
1. More systems to spread the fixed cost of R&D over, or
2. More money to spend on R&D without having very high prices.

1. The music store may bring in big bucks if Apple can get a Windows version of it out. But beyond that, Apple has singlehandedly revolutionized legal music distribution. Apple led the way here. Period. And it's great for iPod sales and for something else, something sneakier, something that involves entrenching Quicktime as a standard for legal, high quality music delivery over the internet.
It won't increase marketshare, because there is a PC verison coming.

2. Joe Consumer doesn't NEED a PowerMac, ScotttheKing. I do. Joe consumer isn't filling those PCI slots, he's not maxing out the RAM, at the end of the day he's not lamenting slow rendering times. Apple has consumer machines and the PowerMacs are supposedly for Pros. People who make their living using Macs. Dell doesn't sell their high-end machines to the masses either.
Joe Consumer doe want a little more then the imac offers, which means a tower.
I use a powermac. Why? Because I use dual monitors, have a few IDE drives, want a powerful video card, etc. That's not pro work. Apple has no middle line, so many consumers have to get the "pro" line.
Dell's middle a lower end machines have things like PCI slots, upgradable video cards, multiple drive bays, etc. Apple doesn't.

3. The iPods are "just" a consumer device? Decide what you care about. If you care about consumers, you care about iPods, right? And here Apple is selling a platform neutral product that will ultimately become a major, huge market share listening device for PC users using Wintel machines USING APPLE'S QUICKTIME encoding. Reason to celebrate, right?
That doesn't increase Mac marketshare.

4. The new Powerbooks are beautiful. Show me a Centrino that looks like a Powerbook. You say looks don't matter, you say battery life of 8 hours is more important to you. I say, get yourself a Centrino-based laptop and knock yourself out. The PowerBooks are pieces of art, and light, stylish, performance is zippy enough for me. The battery issue is ubiquitous and will only be solved with the advent of micro fuel cell batteries within the next couple of years. Hello twenty-hour battery life in 2005! (fingers crossed)
Form over function.
I've seen some pretty nice PC laptops, go look at Fujitsu's offerings, for one.
Battery life is good. I have a Tibook, it gets 30-45 mins of battery life out of one battery.
You made the argument that apple's laptops are so good, but there are better laptops around.
I already have 2 laptops, but I have asked that my next work laptop upgrade be a centrino based laptop unless something better comes along.

5. Quicktime is what pros use to edit video. Avid, FCP, Vegas Video, Media100. They all use Quicktime. It's a rock solid industry standard that just keeps getting better. Period.
Peole whining about paying a little money for functionality that only a few people, usually pros, need is just crazy to me. Hello, welcome to the free market.
I never said anything about people whining. I said it's annoying that it nags you every time for something you don't need. Charging for mpeg2 is dumb when free plugins are available for WMP on the PC.

6.You like iLife. YES!
7. Panther is going to be better than Jaguar. More refined, more powerful, more responsive. OS refinement can only be a good thing.
And you will probably end up paying $130 for it. Wow! I've still got issues (that I told Apple about) that weren't fixed in 10.1 or 10.2. Apple should have delayed release of OSX for another two years and gotten it all right the first time.

8. DVDSP is only for Pros. Again, I was only talking about Pros. I never brought up Joe Consumer, though I mention a lot of things that clearly make this a great year for ALL users of Apple stuff.
Consumer marketshare was what I was discussing.

9. There are new PowerMacs coming at WWDC. It's not just rumors. It's the fact that places are sold out on current PowerMacs and aren't being restocked with the old model. Release is all but assured. The 970 platform is going to be significantly faster than what we've had. The PowerMac line high-end will cost no more than it has historically: $3499. I and other professionals won't bat an eyelash at spending that or less for the new machines. You would have to be very cynical to believe that the overall improvement of the mobo and a new chip family from a company with awesome R&D resources isn't fantastic news for Apple users.
No, it's a rumor until Apple confirms it.
Congrats on professionals spending money. Consumers don't want to spend $3500 just to get a halfway decent system.
Also, you are asking me to make judgement on rumored products, which I won't do.

10. InDesign is fabulous for many things, but not ideal for long document formatting. Book publishers like Simon and Schuster and HarperCollins and R.H. have swithced to InDesign for cover designs, but stuck with Quark for book interiors. They will upgrade to Quark for X within months of this release. Mag publishers will also moveo up. The upgrade is pretty cheap and the software is an industry standard on the Mac. InDesign may win some converts in the industry (it's making inroads), and that's all good. Competition is great for users at all levels.
Ok, so it will sell a few hundred to a few thousand machines.

11. Where are you seeing these pro-PC video editing rigs that cost THOUSANDS of dollars less than Macs? It's just not the case. PCs have had performance advantages and some of my peers have jumped to take advantage of those. But really, when you're doing intense video-editing, the hardware suites for Macs or PCs are both pretty expensive.
Consumer level video editing. I just built a machine, including the DVD burner, for $1200, including video editing software.

ScotttheKing, my ego is in check. I'm just thrilled about the goings-on at Apple. The PowerMacs should be primarily exciting to professionals who make their living on the Mac, and that was really my focus. I am a "Joe Consumer" of Apple stuff, too. It's all good.
It's nothing special. Every hard detail I've seen about the 970, assuming it's coming to the mac, is just catch up to what is already out for the PC.

I just get a little amped when I read jabber about Apple's "dismal" market share. What a crazy analysis. Apple is a unique company that will never enjoy broad support among the masses because most people don't care enough about their computing experience to spend extra money for the stuff Apple offers. It would be a fool's errand to think Apple could own 10% of the market again. The WintelAMD side is simply too huge. But that's okay. Apple has enough devoted pro and consumer users to ensure it's survival for many years to come.
Get over it. Apple has low marketshare, and that means that some companies will not be brining their software to the mac.
As I said before, a few hundred dollars is ok, a few thousand is not.


Mac Users think different. PC users think cheaper and faster. Fair enough.
No comment needed.

P.S. Eug, Adobe's After Effects runs faster on PCs because the company REFUSED to optimize it for Altivec and for MP support. We know this because other products, like Combustion, run nearly as fast on the Mac as they do on PCs. Don't blame Apple for poor programming by third parties. Geesh. Go to:
http://digitalvideoediting.com, click on Editor's Bay, and scroll to "Performance Preferred"
That's only a fair argument if the PC version is SSE/SSE2 optimized and optimized for MP.
Don't blame third parties for having to support every little special feature because a hardware company can't provide technology that runs general software well.
( Last edited by Scotttheking; Jun 11, 2003 at 03:59 PM. )
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Scotttheking
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Jun 11, 2003, 04:01 PM
 
Originally posted by Simon:
And the winner is....







awcopus.

No really, you can argue PCs are faster, you can argue they are cheaper, yadda yadda.

But, and this is absolutely clear, if you want style, if you care about detail, if you mind the whole computing experience and not just SPECint, nothing comes barely close to a Mac.

I know a BMW is cheaper and normally faster than a Mercedes. Nevertheless, I would always go for the Mercedes.
I'm not arguing macs vs PCs, we all know PCs won a long time ago.
I'm talking about marketshare, with some arguing thrown in

I'll probably make another post in 9 or 10 hours when I get home (AND I'VE ALREADY BEEN AT WORK FOR 5 HOURS!!!) and can think a little better.
Right now I have to get back to work, I have some stuff that HAS to be done today. (And I'm not sitting here waiting for my computer, giving me time to post)
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Simon
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Jun 11, 2003, 04:04 PM
 
Originally posted by Scotttheking:
we all know PCs won a long time ago.
Ah we do?

So that makes millions of die-hard Mac users either

a) nobody

or

b) you are suffering from the ego-problem here...
     
awcopus
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Jun 11, 2003, 04:23 PM
 
Mr. ScotttheKing,

I never said anything about marketshare. My original post was simply about the absurdity of measuring the value/success of the Mac platform based on marketshare. It may be an accurate guage of business success, but the numbers don't tell the whole story here. The Mac subculture is significant in and of itself. The typical Mac user is way more emotionally and intellectually invested in their computing experience than the typical PC user, but moreover, Mac users tend to be concentrated in fields of creative endeavor. Maybe there would be more of them if they weren't, but I'm grateful every day for the fact that they are.

PCs won a long time ago in terms of marketshare, and have enjoyed a period of greater success using pure performance criteria. But this period of disparity between Mac processing and PC processing has only further illuminated the difference between the markets these machines serve. It's not just about CPU cycles. There is a Mac culture. Not a fanatical one. Just one with "different" taste in computing. Most of us didn't even consider switching away from the Mac when it wasn't as fast or affordable as PCs, and with IBM's terrific chip technology coming soon, I'd look for our numbers to remain solid, and maybe even grow a bit, over the coming years.

It's a great time to be a Mac user, pro or consumer. I'm sorry that that is so difficult for you to see. Stick around. The view from up here is AWESOME, and it's only getting better!
     
Eug
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Jun 11, 2003, 04:38 PM
 
Your post:
There are more cockroaches than humans, doesn't make me want to be a cockroach. Most people don't even think twice about the computer they use. Mac users think different. We are a statistically small but SIGNIFICANT part of human society, creative types who care about things that other people don't care about. Apple's future does not lie in meeting the ever-lower standards of people who don't care.
My post:
Spoken like a true Mac snob. When Macs run cross-platform software twice as fast as PCs, maybe you'll have a valid point, but that time is not now.
Your post:
P.S. Eug, Adobe's After Effects runs faster on PCs because the company REFUSED to optimize it for Altivec and for MP support. We know this because other products, like Combustion, run nearly as fast on the Mac as they do on PCs. Don't blame Apple for poor programming by third parties. Geesh. Go to:
http://digitalvideoediting.com, click on Editor's Bay, and scroll to "Performance Preferred"
Who said I even run Adobe After Effects?

My point was that it is extremely difficult justifying the statement that that non-Apple machines are of "ever-lower standards" when these machines often still beat the snot out of current Macs in many applications. If the standard is speed, people will obviously choose the faster machine, if the price is right. Just the fact that OS X looks nice and is pretty stable doesn't mean it rules above all else in all situations. If that were the case, Linux or whatever would have died long ago. I also note that you say that Combustion runs "nearly as fast" on the Mac. Well, that's with dual CPUs, at twice the cost.

I agree that PowerBooks are among the best laptops on the market, partially because of the design, and partially because of the OS. But I don't go as far to say my 1 GHz TiBook is blistering fast, because that would just be fooling myself.

I stand by my Mac snob statement.

It's interesting that some Macheads are even more Mac snobbish than Pixar, which chose to buy Xeon blades over Xserves. Speed and cost counts, even to the founder of Apple.

By the way, I betcha a lot of the same "DUAL G4 POWERMACS ARE AWESOME AND THEY RULE ABOVE ALL ELSE" crowd will run out and by PPC 970 dual PowerMacs as soon as they're out... because speed matters.
The Mac subculture is significant in and of itself. The typical Mac user is way more emotionally and intellectually invested in their computing experience than the typical PC user, but moreover, Mac users tend to be concentrated in fields of creative endeavor.
I'd have to say that I've met a lot of stupid PC users, as well as a lot of stupid Mac users. Perhaps a higher proportion of Mac users are in creative fields, but that doesn't mean having a Mac means you're a great person. Just like a lot of Mercedes (and BMW) owners are @#[email protected]#%ers, and a lot of them aren't.

I just don't buy into the snobbiness of it all.
( Last edited by Eug; Jun 11, 2003 at 04:43 PM. )
     
terrancew_hod
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Jun 11, 2003, 06:00 PM
 
**way off topic alert**

Trying to veer it back, Apple has a great opportunity with the 970 to try to woo more customers if it wants; also they will probably want their current base to start moving to it as soon as possible so the can really do great things with the OS.

I still think apple should be looking at ways to woo more people to their systems. I would love to have them offer cheaper expandable machines; not all of us have the income to buy expensive hardware. But I think a more affordable machine would allow more people to migrate to OS X and move current mac users into the OS X world as well.

Terrance
     
awcopus
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Jun 11, 2003, 06:19 PM
 
Ay carumba, Eug.

You made this general comment about cross-platform software and framed it as a shot at Apple. Admonished by ScottheKing to avoid generalizations, I gave you a specific example of an app that runs faster on the PC because it hasn't been written well for the Mac platform, and further I gave you a URL so you could check out how other cross-platform apps that are written well for both platforms perform much closer than most of us would expect.

Speed is not the standard. WintelAMD machines do not "beat the snot" out of current Macs, but they sure are faster. In Photoshop, it has been documented that Apple is "outclassed" in speed tests.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0301/03...gpcmaccomp.asp

Still, all of my professional photography friends stand by their Macs because they prefer the platform. "Macs work the way I work," I often hear. Or, "It's like the machine feels and thinks the way I do." I hear this all the time. Scout's honor. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE that goes beyond speed, that has nothing to do with being a snob, that has everything to do with people, often creative types, legitimately preferring the Mac.

Doesn't make them better people. I know some incredible ers who use the Mac as well.

In video rendering, a 3 GHz PC beats a dual 1.4. Yeah, okay. But that's not why it's been so hard to me to wait for these new Macs. I don't even consider the PCs options. I just want my Mac to do its thing faster. I love the Mac OS. I "love" it. That's just who I am. It's part of who I am. No better or worse than people because of this. Just me. It's a little odd to love a computing platform, but it's not odd in the Mac subculture. And as long as Apple reciprocates with kickass hardware and software, it's just hugs and kisses all the way!

You see, the standard really isn't speed. Or rather, it's not "just speed." My peers who've hybridized and adopted PCs into their Mac environment...most of them ARE going to come back to a pure Mac setup. Because they prefer the platform's other advantages and they "sync" better with it. And now that the speed issue is less of an issue on its way to a nonissue.

Switched my previous company from PCs to Macs. Expensive initially, but they fired the "consulting firm" that was keeping the PCs running and saw a net positive return within 10 months. Moreover, everyone in the work place was THRILLED with their Macs. Energized the place. The one accountant stuck with her PC. Everyone was happy.

Forget Macs and PCs. Pop quiz: You have a choice about spending a day in a room full of accountants versus a room full of designers. You know what I'm talking about!
     
awcopus
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Jun 11, 2003, 06:34 PM
 
Here's a dreamy, low-priced 970 product release pricing scheme:

Entry: $1399.00
256MB RAM
Single 1.4GHz 970
60 GB HD
FireWire 800
ComboDrive

MidA: $1799.00
256MB RAM
Single 1.6GHz 970
80GB HD
FW800 & SuperDrive

MidB: $2199.00
512MB RAM
Dual 1.6GHz 970
100GB HD
FW800 & SuperDrive

High: $2599.00
512MB RAM
Dual 1.8GHz 970
120GB HD
FW800 & SuperDrive

Maybe MidB and High come with Airport Extreme and Bluetooth installed. This is just an attempt to get back on topic, though it's total BS in terms of its predictive value. Maybe a basis for bouncing ideas about configs around?

June 23rd, wherefore art thou not tomorrow!
     
Eug
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Jun 11, 2003, 07:09 PM
 
awcopus,

I agree speed is not THE standard. I have a TiBook after all. However, it is an important consideration nonetheless, and a VERY important one to many people. And when a Mac costs twice as much as a PC and runs slower, that is going to be considered by a lot of people, regardless of how good the OS is. You may love your Mac, but many people are simply not as much in love with their computers as you are. They just want to get the job done fast and cheap. Who cares if it has 1 Gbps Ethernet or Firewire 800 or a nice GUI and beautiful curves. If it encodes MPEG-2 40% faster for a lower price then that's all that matters for some people.

Now back to the marketshare thing that Scott was talking about. Is it important? You bet your PPC 970 it is, when you're talking computers aimed at the greater market. Perhaps Adobe would be more willing to optimize their Mac software if we had more marketshare, but alas, we don't. Your After Effects is a prime example of why marketshare is important.

P.S. Here are my 970 predictions from this thread:
Anyways, here are my revised somewhat optimistic ballpark predictions for the PowerMac 970 launch:

Fast:
1.42 GHz PPC 970
256 MB DDR333 RAM
80 GB ATA100 hard drive
Radeon 9000 Pro 64 MB (on an AGP bus)
DVD/CD-RW combo drive

Faster:
Dual 1.6 GHz PPC 970
256 MB DDR400 RAM
100 GB ATA100 hard drive
Radeon 9000 Pro 64 MB (on an AGP bus)
DVD/CD-RW combo drive

Fastest:
Dual 1.8 GHz PPC 970
512 MB dual channel DDR400 RAM
120 GB ATA100 hard drive
Radeon 9700 Pro 128 MB (on an AGP bus)
4X SuperDrive

This is only assuming that IBM has good yields at 1.8 and plans on being somewhat aggressive with their speedbumps. Otherwise Apple might choose to give themselves some breathing room and for now have a top machine at 1.6 GHz. If the 1.6 is the top, however, then it may make more sense to have Panthwire loaded on this machine at release, to optimize speed.
     
awcopus
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Jun 12, 2003, 12:56 AM
 
Eug, what kind of prices do you predict Apple would charge for the configs you're predicting?
     
docholiday
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Jun 12, 2003, 02:12 AM
 
Originally posted by Eug:
When Macs run cross-platform software twice as fast as PCs...
i like your use of WHEN rather an IF... in fact, i like it a lot
     
MindFad
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Jun 12, 2003, 02:36 AM
 
Fast:
1.42 GHz PPC 970
256 MB DDR333 RAM
80 GB ATA100 hard drive
Radeon 9000 Pro 64 MB (on an AGP bus)
DVD/CD-RW combo drive

Faster:
Dual 1.6 GHz PPC 970
256 MB DDR400 RAM
100 GB ATA100 hard drive
Radeon 9000 Pro 64 MB (on an AGP bus)
DVD/CD-RW combo drive

Fastest:
Dual 1.8 GHz PPC 970
512 MB dual channel DDR400 RAM
120 GB ATA100 hard drive
Radeon 9700 Pro 128 MB (on an AGP bus)
4X SuperDrive
Me like. Throw in a 1.4 ot 1.6 PowerBook 970, and it'd be even better.
     
rm199
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Jun 12, 2003, 03:08 AM
 
Surely by the time they ship it would be prudent to include the 9800Pro...

RM
     
Metzen
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Jun 12, 2003, 03:43 AM
 
AtAT says no 970's at WWDC
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.
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DrBoar
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Jun 12, 2003, 06:58 AM
 
With FWB working on Real PC with 3D acceleration and 970 CPUs this hopefully will enable Mac users to run 3D games with low hardware requirement in emulation mode. Things like many flight sims that runs well on a 3 year old 1 GHz P III or Athlon

To gain any market share with the towers Apple have to make all of them competetive with the Win XP boxes and that means having duals in at least the mid and high range, and for the low end to be viable the price has to come down. Things like http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/con...882#conclusion
shows that the a dual 1.25 gets beaten by a P4 at 1.8 GHz, suggesting that any P4 at or above 2 GHz will beat a top of the line power mac. With the P4 getting close to 4 GHz and having added hyperthreading even the 970 appears to need to come in pairs !

So while SP 970 can be a improvement from dual G4 it is not the real thing.
     
veryniceguy2002
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Jun 12, 2003, 07:58 AM
 
Originally posted by Scotttheking:

I'm sure the EU has laws on divulging trade secrets and leaking info.
Yes, but EU laws tends to be quite specific on trade secrets or leaking proprietry information.

It usually requires people like Apple to produce evidence of the person actually send out that information to another party e.g. caught the person in the middle of handing Apple official documents to the admin of a website, or made the official document available to download from the internet (and Apple or someone had been demostrate and able to downloaded one).

Just because a website had the information "Our reliable source inside Apple told us that 970 will be available in WWDC..." itself is not sufficient.

However, I am not a lawyer, so you can't just take my words...
     
veryniceguy2002
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Jun 12, 2003, 08:07 AM
 
With so many comments/opinions/speciculations on PPC 970, there's one thing that hasn't really been addressed... the price of the system???

It seems everyone would persume that the prices of the 970 based system would be comparable to the corresponding model in the current lineup... or can be really assume that??

I think the initial cost of PPC 970 would be higher than existing G4 chips that, new systems from Apple might be more expensive than current one.

What do you think?
     
reactor
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Jun 12, 2003, 08:29 AM
 
Here's a tale on the costs of a 970 compared to a G4 in #, not $

http://www.envestco2.com/macwhispers...ves/000070.php

But my opinion: the prices on all systems will be equal to todays prices, slightly higher on introduction, a bit lower at the end of their 'era'.
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-Q-
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Jun 12, 2003, 08:52 AM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
AtAT says no 970's at WWDC
No they didn't. They said they're hearing another rumor saying they won't be there. No definite confirmation of either rumor. Until Steve comes out and says "no new hardware will be announced," I"m thinking we have a good chance to see 970s at WWDC.
     
-Q-
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Jun 12, 2003, 08:56 AM
 
Originally posted by reactor:
But my opinion: the prices on all systems will be equal to todays prices, slightly higher on introduction, a bit lower at the end of their 'era'.
I agree. Neither the economy nor Apple's customer base would support dramatically higher prices for new machines. I think they'll be introduced very close to their current price point.
     
awcopus
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Jun 12, 2003, 09:39 AM
 
hehehe hehe hehehe no PowerMacs at WWDC...he hehehe...how..how could we all have been...so wrong...so very wrong.....

If Steve Jobs gives his talk on 10.3 and then says, "Enjoy the rest of the week" instead of.."One more thing", I see nerd pandemonium. I see slide rulers being used as daggers, Apple employees being taken hostage, Jobs running for his jet as a bloodthirst throng pelts him with iPods.

It would be disastrous. In fact, Apple follows these rumor sites and discussion boards pretty closely, and they will lower expectations in advance of the 23rd with a modest press release designed to tone down people's expectations...if those expectations are really off-target.

IMHO, there will only be one dual configuration, at the high end, and it won't be available until late July or August. This is just a chip supply issue. The other single processor machines will be available approximately immediately.
     
acadian
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Jun 12, 2003, 10:08 AM
 
If Steve Jobs gives his talk on 10.3 and then says, "Enjoy the rest of the week" instead of.."One more thing", I see nerd pandemonium. I see slide rulers being used as daggers, Apple employees being taken hostage, Jobs running for his jet as a bloodthirst throng pelts him with iPods.
Hahahhahh...lol...I can just see the headlines now;

"Steve Jobs turned into "Apple sauce" yesterday as a mob of crazed techno-geeks unleashed a barrage of..."

That's some funny s&$%...
     
Eug
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Jun 12, 2003, 11:17 AM
 
Eug, what kind of prices do you predict Apple would charge for the configs you're predicting?
I dunno, but not significantly cheaper than prices now. Perhaps about the same, or slightly higher.

BTW, Mac OS Rumors has remarkably similar predictions:

"*Single 1.4GHz, Dual 1.6GHz, and Dual 1.8GHz processor configurations
*Twin banks of DDR400 SDRAM memory for a combined effective clock of 800MHz....thanks to the 970's impressive new frontside bus, the processor(s) can take full advantage of this -- unlike the present DDR architecture which is hobbled by a single-rate frontside bus. Total of six or eight DIMM memory slots; sources have most recently been suggesting six.
*AGP 8X slot, four PCI slots; PCI Express has often been mentioned, but there has been no firm confirmation of anything beyond the 64-bit/33MHz slots used in existing systems.
*ATA-133 storage bus - Serial ATA is possible, and we hope it will be included, but sources suggest S-ATA will have to wait for the next generation of systems due to technical issues and a surprising lack of demand from users according to Apple's market research.
*Two Firewire 400 ports and one Firewire 800
*Dual-channel USB 2.0
*Combo Drive or Superdrive, with support for two internal Superdrives
*Airport Extreme support, Gigabit Ethernet, 56k modem
*NVIDIA GeForce FX and ATi Radeon 9X00 series graphics cards
*New keyboard and mouse
*New audio-out options including support for digital surround sound. Dolby 5.1 or 7.1 have been frequently discussed, but details have yet to be confirmed by any source willing to speak to us.
*New connectors added to Apple Pro Speaker jack (reasons unknown) - but may be related to a second-generation iPod dock that would allow a new generation of Apple Pro Speakers to be used directly with a docked iPod, and would add other new features. *New enclosure which will continue to use the basic minitower with handles on all four corners that we have seen since the Blue G3 -- but the underlying concept will be all that we'll recognize. More angular handles, a narrower and smaller overall enclosure, lots of bare metal, and only a hint of transparent plastic to be seen....more on this soon, as we have seen some mind-blowing prototype enclosures on the grapevine recently.
"

What is dual-channel USB 2.0???
     
Metzen
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Jun 12, 2003, 12:24 PM
 
Originally posted by -Q-:
No they didn't. They said they're hearing another rumor saying they won't be there. No definite confirmation of either rumor. Until Steve comes out and says "no new hardware will be announced," I"m thinking we have a good chance to see 970s at WWDC.
It was late, I'm getting sloppy. What I meant to say was, "AtAT says no PPC 970 *released* at WWDC.
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The Placid Casual
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Jun 12, 2003, 03:17 PM
 
Moki has mentioned over at AI, that all the people expecting a 970 Powermac to ship at WWDC, with a dual following soon after are going to be "very dissapointed"...

I really think we could be in August/September before we see 970 machines being shipped...

As for 10.3, it hasn't been seeded yet, so we would be looking at late September at the earliest for a release...

Hmmm. I recon we will see a demo only at WWDC.

I hope Steve has had his bullet proof vest made to measure...
     
JB72
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Jun 12, 2003, 03:46 PM
 
Originally posted by The Placid Casual:
Moki has mentioned over at AI, that all the people expecting a 970 Powermac to ship at WWDC, with a dual following soon after are going to be "very dissapointed"...

I really think we could be in August/September before we see 970 machines being shipped...
I think CreativePro might be a good time to actually make the 970s available for sale.
     
Simon
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Jun 12, 2003, 04:20 PM
 
Originally posted by The Placid Casual:
I hope Steve has had his bullet proof vest made to measure...
Yep, I agree.

We may see Panther, but only demo. I suppose it won't ship before September.

We may not even see 970 Macs. Maybe even just the next G4 revision (1.25, 1.4, 1.6)...?

Judging from what people on this board are expecting, I'd say Steve is in deep ****.
     
The Placid Casual
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Jun 12, 2003, 04:26 PM
 
Originally posted by Simon:
Yep, I agree.

We may see Panther, but only demo. I suppose it won't ship before September.

We may not even see 970 Macs. Maybe even just the next G4 revision (1.25, 1.4, 1.6)...?

Judging from what people on this board are expecting, I'd say Steve is in deep ****.
You're right, expectation is getting waayyy out of hand. WWDC is not even a public event...

I'm preparing for the forum groaning under the slew of bitching threads when no 970 is announced...

Peace,

Marc

(Although I still have my fingers crossed for a 15" Alubook with a G4 not a 970 in sight...!)
     
CubeWannaB
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Jun 12, 2003, 04:47 PM
 
Originally posted by Scotttheking:
The music store isn't bad, but it's not going to be brining in big bucks.

The ipods are selling, but that's just a consumer device.

The new powerbooks, are, well, meh.

Quicktime ... doesn't play many formats, you have to pay for mpeg2 support, it bugs you every time to pay $30 to upgrade it with features most people don't want, etc.

Panther is coming ... is this the update that makes it fast enough to use?
Why are you even here? Sounds like you can't deal with change: you don't like anything Apple's done since the B&W G3. Really, go buy your Centrino laptop, ditch your Mac Classic in the dumpster and leave us alone.
     
Scotttheking
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Jun 12, 2003, 04:58 PM
 
Originally posted by CubeWannaB:
Why are you even here? Sounds like you can't deal with change: you don't like anything Apple's done since the B&W G3. Really, go buy your Centrino laptop, ditch your Mac Classic in the dumpster and leave us alone.
eh?
I said apple hasn't done much to increase marketshare.
Wakeup and pay attention.
I play with hardware, and apple's hardware has been lackluster for a while.
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The Placid Casual
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Jun 12, 2003, 05:07 PM
 
Originally posted by CubeWannaB:
Why are you even here? Sounds like you can't deal with change: you don't like anything Apple's done since the B&W G3. Really, go buy your Centrino laptop, ditch your Mac Classic in the dumpster and leave us alone.
The problem is, the constant friction between the pragmatists and the dreamers of the Mac community...

Scotts' statement are in essence correct. Just not diluted or sugar coated. They need to be faced.

I am pissed off that the ranges have been allowed to languish they way they have... The pro machines are our 'core', without them we have nothing.

It is fine to sell songs, and sell consumer widgets, but we need a decent hardware lineup and also a *fast* implemetation of OS X... This is not to do with hostility to change, or anything else. It is just fact.

In reality, what has Apple done since the B&W G3 that has had as much impact?

We have had the whole G4 debacle. That is just dreadful and still makes me mad.

If you had told me a few years ago that today we would STILL have G3s with 133mhz busses in machines a few years ago, I would have laughed...

The TiBook has been cool, but again, the competition has now caught up. This has to be faced...

Yeah we have OS X. I love it to death as it has all the UNIX goodness I need. But, Hmmm, it was slow as molasses for a long time, and is still not perfect. In reality probably too advanced for the hardware we have... NOt good enough.

Admittedly I think alot of the problems have to do with Motorola, but Apple are also to blame for getting into bed with them so completely..

Pentium Notebooks with 8 hour battery life and 3ghz chip!! WTF! THINK about this for a while...

We need a shake up, and we need it soon. I just hope the 970 is a s good as people say and that Apple don't feck it up again...

Peace,

Marc
     
 
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