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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Notebooks > Sony's XBRITE

Sony's XBRITE
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David Hagan
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May 31, 2004, 11:50 AM
 
I was in CompUSA on Saturday to scope out a 17-inch PowerBook. While I was there comparing the displays on all of the computers, I moseyed over to the Sony notebooks, since I read so many good things here about the quality of the Sony's XBRITE displays. I must say that I was wowed and can't imagine that Apple won't incorporate something like that into their next major release, the PowerBook G5. They were just simply stunning. I ended up purchasing the 17-inch, which has a stuck blue pixel in the dock area The display seems slightly warped on the left side when closed. They are both very minor quibbles because other than that it's perfect...but no matter when the next major rev of the PowerBooks come out, if they have these new types of LCDs, I don't care...I'm selling this thing and getting one of them!
     
Will McGoonigle
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May 31, 2004, 11:57 AM
 
Blue pixels can be massaged and will disappear. Red ones are fatal ones.

Xbrite belongs to Sony and they won't license it to anyone.
     
David Hagan  (op)
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May 31, 2004, 01:02 PM
 
I messaged it for about 20 seconds and it's still there. Any other suggestions? How long? Should the screen be on or off?

I know that XBRITE is proprietary to Sony, but surely Apple can come up with something similar...after all everyone is usually copying them
( Last edited by David Hagan; May 31, 2004 at 01:12 PM. )
     
Will McGoonigle
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May 31, 2004, 01:29 PM
 
Originally posted by David Hagan:
I messaged it for about 20 seconds and it's still there. Any other suggestions? How long? Should the screen be on or off?

Just massage it now and then. I used to get one in the corner of the screen and it never appeared again. Don't be hasty. If it's blue it should go after a while. Don't press the screen hard ever.
     
tooki
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May 31, 2004, 02:05 PM
 
Originally posted by Will McGoonigle:
Blue pixels can be massaged and will disappear. Red ones are fatal ones.
Yyeeeah. Um. No.

ALL pixels on an LCD are equal. LCD panels are inherently black and white. Color LCDs are made by putting little color filters over each subpixel.

So a blue pixel is a black LCD pixel with a blue filter, a green pixel is a black LCD pixel with a green filter, and a red pixel is a black LCD pixel with a red filter.

It's impossible and illogical for specific colors to be more or less sensitive than the other, because they're all identical.

tooki
     
Will McGoonigle
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May 31, 2004, 02:45 PM
 
Originally posted by tooki:
Yyeeeah. Um. No.

ALL pixels on an LCD are equal. LCD panels are inherently black and white. Color LCDs are made by putting little color filters over each subpixel.

So a blue pixel is a black LCD pixel with a blue filter, a green pixel is a black LCD pixel with a green filter, and a red pixel is a black LCD pixel with a red filter.

It's impossible and illogical for specific colors to be more or less sensitive than the other, because they're all identical.

tooki
Then why do people report the same as my experience has proved? I've had a 15 iinch Studio Display, four Powerbooks and a 23 inch Cinema Display in the last 3 years. Every red pixel has stuck, every blue pixel has been massaged away. Why? Explain.
     
angelmb
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May 31, 2004, 04:46 PM
 
the Philips TFT my SGI has, has a blue pixel, are you sure I can massague it?, could you explain to me the how to?, many thanks.
     
Will McGoonigle
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May 31, 2004, 04:50 PM
 
Originally posted by angelmb:
the Philips TFT my SGI has, has a blue pixel, are you sure I can massague it?, could you explain to me the how to?, many thanks.
Rub it with your finger. That's all. Always worked for me.
     
Michel_80
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May 31, 2004, 05:01 PM
 
I believe Sony doesn't make the Black Onyx (screen) / Xbrite (2 lamps). They are called IPS screens, and hopefully Apple will get them.
     
The Placid Casual
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May 31, 2004, 05:06 PM
 
I am in the market for a new Powerbook but am also really disappointed with the screens. They just don't seem quite there. They seem not to have changed since the introduction of the TiBook. In fact, they seem worse in some respects than my old Wallstreet!

Here's hoping for some inmprovement in the screen, battery life and processor soon. G5 anyone?
     
The Placid Casual
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May 31, 2004, 05:08 PM
 
Originally posted by Will McGoonigle:
Rub it with your finger. That's all. Always worked for me.
All stuck pixels are the same. Blue, pink, black, purple etc etc. there is no 'pixel colour of doom'.

You can sometimes massage pixels back to life, but if they haven't done a Lazarus in about 5 mins don't massage any more as you can damage the screen.
     
Will McGoonigle
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May 31, 2004, 06:34 PM
 
Originally posted by The Placid Casual:
All stuck pixels are the same. Blue, pink, black, purple etc etc. there is no 'pixel colour of doom'.

You can sometimes massage pixels back to life, but if they haven't done a Lazarus in about 5 mins don't massage any more as you can damage the screen.
Agree. But experiences bears:

If it's green
Restart the machine
If it's blue
A massage will do
It's it red
Forget it, it's dead.

     
David Hagan  (op)
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May 31, 2004, 06:37 PM
 
I gotta tell you that I messaged it again awhile ago. This time at least for a minute..maybe more. It's still stuck. Beyond what I have already done to message it and wish it away, it's still there, and I think it's stuck that way. Oh well.

I don't think all of Apple LCDs are bad...they are good...especially the ones in their 20-inch and 23-inch Cinema displays. The LCD panels in the 12-inch portables (both iBook and PowerBook) are fair, and the one in the 15-inch PowerBook needs help (personal experience). The 12-inch has a narrow viewing angle, compounded by the fact that is has a strong blue bias. The blue bias is more apparent in the 15-inch because it is a bigger screen. It's like looking at a camera image that isn't white balanced. I think it has to do with the backlight used. The backlight is not pure white and it gives the overall tone of the screen a very blueish-green cast. For me, it is very annoying to look at for long periods of time. I think Apple has had to accept a bluer biased screen because they make the screen bezel so damn thin.

I hope in the next major rev of the laptop, they are able to make thinner the base of the unit so they can add more to the backlight section and thusly improve the screen.

I'm talking like I know what I am talking about! At least I think that's what the problem is. I think that the backlights are the issue and that the very thinness of the screen is why some of the displays are marginal...form over function.
     
Michel_80
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May 31, 2004, 07:13 PM
 
Apple takes their screens from some company like LG or Samsung, so it is up to them to make the screen better.
     
David Hagan  (op)
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May 31, 2004, 07:34 PM
 
Originally posted by Michel_80:
Apple takes their screens from some company like LG or Samsung, so it is up to them to make the screen better.
Yeah, Apple receives the LCD panel from a LG or Samsung, but Apple has to engineer the bezel around it, and then put a backlight to illuminate the display. I'm presuming since Apple has made the display so thin, it has limited the type and brightness of the backlight Apple has from which to choose.
     
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May 31, 2004, 07:40 PM
 
Originally posted by Michel_80:
Apple takes their screens from some company like LG or Samsung, so it is up to them to make the screen better.
No, it's up to Apple to make sure they get their screens from a manufacturer that makes their screens better ... if that's Apple's concern. If screens on Apple equipment are of lower quality, the fault does not sit with LG or Samsung for making lower quality screens, but rather with Apple for purchasing lower quality screens.
     
David Hagan  (op)
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May 31, 2004, 09:02 PM
 
About LCD display pixel anomalies:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=22194
     
romeosc
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May 31, 2004, 09:57 PM
 
Originally posted by Will McGoonigle:
Agree. But experiences bears:

If it's green
Restart the machine
If it's blue
A massage will do
It's it red
Forget it, it's dead.



I agree with Tooki,

All pixels are the same, some only become obvious when screen is displaying different colors. Red is a more dominet color on a white backgroud. Some people never realize they have dead or stuck pixels if they don't run a pixel check!
     
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May 31, 2004, 10:10 PM
 
I find that having gone through several cinema displays now, green dead subs are the most common, and there's no real reason for it.

It's just luck, perhaps...
Aloha
     
Will McGoonigle
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May 31, 2004, 10:20 PM
 
I'd recommend one of the grey solid colors from the sys prefs. You can't see dead pixels very well on grey.
     
madmacgames
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May 31, 2004, 10:23 PM
 
Originally posted by David Hagan:
The 12-inch has a narrow viewing angle, compounded by the fact that is has a strong blue bias. The blue bias is more apparent in the 15-inch because it is a bigger screen. It's like looking at a camera image that isn't white balanced. I think it has to do with the backlight used. The backlight is not pure white and it gives the overall tone of the screen a very blueish-green cast. For me, it is very annoying to look at for long periods of time.
umm... so then calibrate the screen to adjust for any "color bias".

odd you say the 12-inch has a strong blue bias. It is my experience, and I've read from others elsewhere, that the default color LCD profile gives an almost yellowish tone to the screen on the 12".

the built-in calibration works pretty well. Many people swear by super-cal. And you can also find pre-made profiles on the net. There is one for the 12" powerbook floating around that gets a big thumbs up from me.
     
David Hagan  (op)
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May 31, 2004, 11:08 PM
 
You can think you're calibrating until your blue in the face (sorry for the punn). If the backlight has an overall blue bias, it's going to bias the foreground (the LCD). That's just a mere fact.
     
hldan
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May 31, 2004, 11:55 PM
 
I thought this thread was suppose to be about the Sony XBRITE technology and why Apple isn't doing it. Well my take is that while the Sony screen has a more fluid look I don't care for the high degree of mirror-like reflection from the screen. So much light reflection from the room makes it difficult to view the screen and don't even think about getting even one fingerprint or dust on the LCD because it will really show. I have looked at them at CompUSA and Fry's electronics over and over and I hate that look the more I see them.
Apple is doing the right thing.
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Will McGoonigle
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Jun 1, 2004, 01:05 AM
 
Originally posted by hldan:
I thought this thread was suppose to be about the Sony XBRITE technology and why Apple isn't doing it. Well my take is that while the Sony screen has a more fluid look I don't care for the high degree of mirror-like reflection from the screen. So much light reflection from the room makes it difficult to view the screen and don't even think about getting even one fingerprint or dust on the LCD because it will really show. I have looked at them at CompUSA and Fry's electronics over and over and I hate that look the more I see them.
Apple is doing the right thing.

Yes, they get fingerprints but all LCDs get dirty in computer stores. Apple can't have XBrite because Sony OWNS it.
     
hldan
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Jun 1, 2004, 02:45 AM
 
Originally posted by Will McGoonigle:
Yes, they get fingerprints but all LCDs get dirty in computer stores. Apple can't have XBrite because Sony OWNS it.
I know the "XBRITE" name belongs to Sony but I thought it's just the UXGA technology and Sony just slaps on their name XBRITE for marketing purposes. The reason I am saying this is because I have seen this same high gloss fluid screen on the Toshiba and Fujitsu laptops as well. They all look the same as the Sony XBRITE screens so I didn't think the technology was any different.
Educate me if I am wrong as I am not familiar with many PC laptop screens.
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angelmb
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Jun 1, 2004, 05:23 AM
 
Originally posted by Will McGoonigle:
Agree. But experiences bears:

If it's green
Restart the machine
If it's blue
A massage will do
It's it red
Forget it, it's dead.

he he, nice, I�ll try 'color therapy' later
     
Michel_80
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Jun 1, 2004, 08:17 PM
 
Originally posted by hldan:
I know the "XBRITE" name belongs to Sony but I thought it's just the UXGA technology and Sony just slaps on their name XBRITE for marketing purposes. The reason I am saying this is because I have seen this same high gloss fluid screen on the Toshiba and Fujitsu laptops as well. They all look the same as the Sony XBRITE screens so I didn't think the technology was any different.
Educate me if I am wrong as I am not familiar with many PC laptop screens.
Toshiba has CASV, Fujitsu some other one, IBM with their FlexView. Many companies have some sort of screen technology.

Re: XBRITE and reflection, that is only visible in the neon lighting in the shops, because we have one at work and it looks even better in real life tests.

Eventually Apple will have to have it, but currently there are no 12", 15" widescreen or 17" screens of that tech made. So it is not Apple's fault for not choosing them. The A series Sony will have 17" OnyxBlack, so here is hoping.
     
David Hagan  (op)
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Jun 1, 2004, 08:23 PM
 
Well after seeing this "stuck pixel" on a black background with a DVD in the drive, it's not a blue pixel, rather a green one. Maybe it went from blue to green? I dunno, it doesn't look any different except it exists. I have messaged it a couple of times daily. No luck.

On a different note, I have noticed from using it the past couple of days that on a very subtle level, the top of the screen seems a smidgen darken than the bottom. I notice the tone of certain colors is slightly different at the top than at the bottom. This is most apparent when I am reading a forum that has the different posts alternating colors. It's probably nothing except my paranoia kicking in!
     
tooki
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Jun 1, 2004, 09:22 PM
 
Originally posted by Will McGoonigle:
Then why do people report the same as my experience has proved? I've had a 15 iinch Studio Display, four Powerbooks and a 23 inch Cinema Display in the last 3 years. Every red pixel has stuck, every blue pixel has been massaged away. Why? Explain.
Coincidence.

It is technically impossible for one color of subpixel to be biased towards failure, as the technical explanation I just gave you makes plainly obvious.

tooki
     
hldan
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Jun 1, 2004, 09:51 PM
 
Originally posted by Michel_80:
Toshiba has CASV, Fujitsu some other one, IBM with their FlexView. Many companies have some sort of screen technology.

Re: XBRITE and reflection, that is only visible in the neon lighting in the shops, because we have one at work and it looks even better in real life tests.

Eventually Apple will have to have it, but currently there are no 12", 15" widescreen or 17" screens of that tech made. So it is not Apple's fault for not choosing them. The A series Sony will have 17" OnyxBlack, so here is hoping.
Thanks for the info Sir Michel_80. I needed that food for thought.
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bauhaus
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Jun 2, 2004, 03:41 AM
 
Yes, Michel has the right info. Sony was actually late to the game for this screen tech. It's called in-plane-switching (IPS) and many manufacturers use it. It was first commisioned by IBM over 4 years ago and they branded it FlexView. CASV is the Toshiba name, MVA is the Fujitsu name, and XBRITE is the Sony name. They are all IPS tech. IPS has a few drawbacks... it takes more power, slower pixel response, and the screen has to be thicker to fit the backlight and inverter. These screens also cost substantially more. On the plus-side, they are brighter, have a higher contrast, larger viewing angles, and better colour accuracy.

The reflective surface has nothing to do with IPS. It's just a coating the laptop maker is putting on because people like the appearance of glass. Sony and Fujitsu use a clear polycarbonate surface. Maker's like IBM are more sensible and put a bonded highly-anti-glare coating instead of highly-reflective.
     
Michel_80
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Jun 2, 2004, 09:43 AM
 
Normal screen response rate: 45ms typical, 50ms maximum.
IPS screen response rate: 60ms typical, 120ms maximum.

Taken from another forum (IBM Thinkpads in question).
     
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Jun 3, 2004, 07:32 PM
 
Originally posted by madmacgames:
umm... so then calibrate the screen to adjust for any "color bias".

odd you say the 12-inch has a strong blue bias. It is my experience, and I've read from others elsewhere, that the default color LCD profile gives an almost yellowish tone to the screen on the 12".

the built-in calibration works pretty well. Many people swear by super-cal. And you can also find pre-made profiles on the net. There is one for the 12" powerbook floating around that gets a big thumbs up from me.
Which pre-made profile do u endorse? Can you send it my way pleeeease? I'm a stickler for color, but i'm blind as a bat (I squint and hee and haw .. but I dont seem to be able to get it set up right). I tried super-cal once and the screen came out with a super blue bias. If anyone has one that they clame to be really clear .. i'd die to try it out..
     
010111
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Jun 4, 2004, 09:21 PM
 
i reverse-switched to a VAIO PCG-TR2AP (catchy name huh!) and i loooooooove the screen. much better and clearer than any of the 12" / 15" / 17" i have had in the past.

i would love to see this (or a similar) screen in a Powerbook / iBook. its a 10" widescreen at 1280x768. its very sharp and very bright with a great viewing angle. works better in the sun than Powerbooks in my opinion. and DVDs look much better on it than any Powerbook. the mirror like reflectivity isn't ever noticed in day to day use in my experience.

i think a screen like this should replace the 12/14" screens. though it might be a bit too pixel-dense and thus 'small' for some people.

2-button trackpad, integrated camera, and a latchless design are the other 3 features i would like to see in the next Powerbooks.

of course i will most likely see none of those.

but... it doesn't really matter as i will most likely get a G5 Powerbook regardless. this PC was a temporary learning experience for me whilst i wait for the G5s vs. a long term machine.

in conclusion... in everyday use the Sony LCDs are niiiiiiiice.
010111
     
badtz
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Aug 26, 2004, 08:23 PM
 
wow.

i just saw this at office depot, and the screen on the sony laptops DO look VERY nice ....!!!
     
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Aug 26, 2004, 08:48 PM
 
The glossy plastic is purely for upfront enhancement/show. If anything it fits in with the coating sony would typically use on their CRT screens, which are well known for being shiny (trinitrons, anyone?)

One of the things I missed when I got my cinema display was that "glass effect". While it gets annoying if you have really bright lights shinining at your monitor, it just makes the picture look more natural and stuff.

The standard LCD coating on the other hand, tends to suck in light. The problem with it is it's a real bitch to clean in comparison to that super glossy coating (I imagine). BUT -- given that the design of the powerbooks is all matte surfaces that have that "Icy metal" effect, I doubt you'll see a really shiny screen on them anytime soon.
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StevenWRX
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Aug 27, 2004, 12:08 AM
 
i think the 17" screen looks fantastic with the brightness turned up a bit.

mine seems razor sharp, i love it!


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hldan
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Aug 27, 2004, 02:57 AM
 
Originally posted by StevenWRX:
i think the 17" screen looks fantastic with the brightness turned up a bit.

mine seems razor sharp, i love it!


I found the best adjustment for the Apple Notebooks and iMacs is to use the 2.2 Television Gamma Mode. In System Preferences choose Displays then choose the color tab then click the Calibrate button. Don't go for expert mode. Hit continue then click the radio button called "2.2 Televison Gamma mode".
The 1.8 mode is the standard for Mac computers but it makes the screen have a dull and not very bright look.
The 2.2 mode increases the contrast and color dramatically and it's the standard for viewing on PC compatible computers.
I don't know why Apple doesn't make this setting the Mac standard.
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t4r1q
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Aug 27, 2004, 03:49 AM
 
that gamma setting makes alot of difference. anyone else use it?
     
Pierre B.
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Aug 27, 2004, 08:24 AM
 
Originally posted by t4r1q:
that gamma setting makes alot of difference. anyone else use it?
I often use this setting for the monitor, but I find it is too dark for watching DVDs. In this case I revert to the default LCD settings.
     
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Aug 27, 2004, 02:19 PM
 
Originally posted by Will McGoonigle:
Just massage it now and then. I used to get one in the corner of the screen and it never appeared again. Don't be hasty. If it's blue it should go after a while. Don't press the screen hard ever.
apple maintains that you should not rub a stuck pixel;

Don't Rub the Screen

Some sources maintain that defective LCD pixels can be restored by rubbing the screen around the defective pixel. Given the great complexity of LCD displays, there are very great risks that such a procedure will simply make more pixels defective.

This procedure does not work and is very likely to create further problems. Don't rub LCD screens. If you have to clean an LCD screen surface, be sure to do so with a gentle pressure.
     
mdc
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Aug 27, 2004, 04:13 PM
 
not too go too far off topic. but my 15" powerbook has no dead/stuck pixels. then one day the screen saver is on and in the bottom right there is this bright blue pixel, and it just stayed there.

tried massaging it (thanks for the info, i won't do that anymore) and the pixel would not go anywhere. i have no idea why, but i tapped the pixel lightly, and it went away. week or so later it was back, tap, gone.

have not seen it since then, that was about 2 months ago.

weird.
     
Lancer409
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Aug 28, 2004, 05:19 AM
 
here's to hoping mine doesnt have pixels popping up left n right ... i had a green one near center ... apple replaced it ... i was lucky i guess .. but i did return it within 20 hours of purchase

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Dec 8, 2004, 05:01 PM
 
Back on topic. I was in the FNAC today and the laptop section was rather dimly lit and had all the laptops open in a row. Those "brite" ones by sony and others are SOOOOO much brighter and crisper looking than Apple's rather dimly lit 'books by comparison. I didn't notice any difference in thickness or response when playing with the machines. They just looked good.

I know that when most people bought their Apple 'books this technology wasn't around but if Apple doesn't address this feature in their next model, well it'll be fine in the Apple Stores but it'll just make those powerbooks in other stores look sh*ttier if all the pc laptops jump on this technology.

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Dec 11, 2004, 06:39 PM
 
Hopefully we will see new screens in the next revision -- new processor or not.
Aloha
     
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Dec 11, 2004, 07:53 PM
 
hey.. so in response to your original post...

i bought an s260 to replace a 12" powerbook I have..

here is the thing.. the pb has a 7200rpm drive.. which i can move to the sony.. and an extra gig of ram.. which i can't since the sony takes microdimms.

So now I am sitting here with both the s260 and the 1.33 12" powerbook.. and i can't decide whether i want to switch back over to the pc world. lol.

The 260 is faster.. but windows does not multitask as well.. so that is pointless. The screen on the 260 makes the 12" pb look like a 500 $ computer.. it's THAT much better. although the 15" and 17" pb have a noticably better screen.

the s260 can run linux for me to tinker around with more..but i can use x11 and i have a server.. the stuff i need to learn in linux is more server related anyway.

The sony gets better wireless reception... but i don't go a mile away.

The mac has bluetooth.

The sony was $200 more.

the mac is more solid feeling

anyway.. the one thing is.. after looking at that sony screen, i am not sure i can go back to using the 12" powerbook.. it's THAT much better. So if apple doesn't get something going similar to that.. they are making a huge mistake.. as i am considering giving up my pb for a wintel machine.. because the screen is so much better..

and i am a huge mac advocate.. and i used to work for apple, fwiw.

so that's my take.. you're SPOT on. and in retrospect.. if i would have paid more attn to this screen initially.. i probably would not have bought this machine - coming fomr a tibook which also had a much better screen.
-= H00ligan =-

1.33 GHz 12" | 60 gig 7200 rpm drive | 1.25 Gigs of ram
amd 64 3000+ eMachines m6805 (arima lappy) | 60 gig | 512 megs | almost 3400 3dMark03 and it was only $1250 :)
     
Luca Rescigno
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Dec 11, 2004, 08:07 PM
 
By the way, I saw someone refer to this technology in general as "UXGA." UXGA stands for Ultra eXpanded Graphics Array and is basically just tech-speak for 1600x1200 resolution.

"That's Mama Luigi to you, Mario!" *wheeze*
     
Lancer409
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Dec 13, 2004, 02:43 AM
 
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
By the way, I saw someone refer to this technology in general as "UXGA." UXGA stands for Ultra eXpanded Graphics Array and is basically just tech-speak for 1600x1200 resolution.

Nah .. SuperBright, Xbright or X brite or whatever.. fujitsu has another name for it ... etc. a lot of pc laptops now feature this type of lcd now.. crystal view or ___brite. I hope apple gets it sooner rather than later.


BAM! .. btw .. I miss your crappy sig =)

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
     
jfelbab
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Dec 13, 2004, 05:38 PM
 
Brighter LCD's might be nice for some but I've not seen a single SONY, IBM or Toshiba that is as color accurate as the Apple display. When I see a shade of magenta or cyan or yellow I want it to match the original print, not look like a neon poster. For my money Apple clearly still has the most color accurate displays on the market.

Granted I may be in the minority in this desire to see color rendered exactly as it should be. Many of my friends want to see images resembling liquid neon cellophane but I want exact color. A banana should not look like it is plugged in to a wall outlet and is shooting yellow sparks.

JMHO
     
bnowrooz
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Dec 13, 2004, 06:38 PM
 
In general, there is going to be 2 or 3 massive improvements to LCD displays.

* Use of LED as back lights. (now they are brighter and will produce better colors)

* Smaller pixels

* Production changes (quality will increase while price decreases)

My guess is the Sony is using a specific vendor's LED backlighting, and for Apple to get this improvement, Samsung would need to do the same. (licensing arrangement)
     
 
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