[Frans]

Finally! Apple is working on an 'ultra-portable', the machine I've been lusting for since I changed from my Sony Vaio to a 12 " Powerbook G4. And although I'm very happy with my BlackBook, there is room for improvement. Any suggestions from this forum for Apple what to put in the machine (and what to leave out!)?

For me, what I would like to see a machine for roadwarriors: light, lots of battery life, very compact, very good screen. Something like:
- less than 1,5 kilo (3,3 pounds)
- 13" widescreen 1200 x 800 glossy screen (or at least the option for glossy)
- portable DVD-player (hardly use it, only for installations and on travels to watch DVD)
- 7 hours worktime
- very small and light power adaptor, or even better: an integrated adapter
- possibility of using a bigger battery pack
- a docking station

Any thoughts out there?

Links:
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1814
http://www.macnn.com/articles/06/06/...demand.strong/
(bottom of the article)

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

With what you are asking for it sounds like the current MacBooks, you just want it smaller with the same guts.

[Heavy]

Your specs do sound about the same as a MB. It's funny 'cuz about five people so far have commented on how small the MB is. Of course there is still smaller out there. The powerbook 12" was a nice size, but it looks like a toy and hard to see details, compared to the MB. Maybe a widescreen 12 or something.

[chipchen]

I'd prefer an ULTRA portable.

- 10.4" Widescreen LCD
- NO optical drive
- Boots from flash or 60GB iPod size drive
- Touch screen capability (but not a tablet)
- Built-in WiFi and Bluetooth
- Maybe 90% size keyboard or something
- FireWire 400 (but not likely)
- USB 2.0 (at least three)
- Mini-DVI out
- NO modem, yes ethernet port
- Headphone port
- No expansion slot
- One slot for memory to save space (will be upgradeable to the 2GB chips)
- MAYBE built-in isight.

This could easily weight in at about 3 pounds... doesn't have to be a Core Duo.. could be Core Solo. Main purpose could be for students, professionals that need ultra portability, internet browser around the house or business, and eventually control the Mac-centered media house (maybe through a Mac mediahouse utility app).

It will be able to push media from one mac in the house (that has downloaded movies from itunes) through to another device (maybe a new AirPort Express with video).

The utility app will be able to use the touch screen feature to show all the media on a connected mac network (and PCs too). When 802.11g gets an upgrade, it will finally have faster throughput to stream better quality video, and the AirPort Express can be upgraded to streaming video. Or maybe by then we can just hook up the Mac mini to the TV using HDMI and the Mac mini can be used to pull the media from another Mac in the house (much like a modded xBox can show video from a PC streaming video.

This MacBook mini or MacBook Lite or whatever would not necessarily be for full functioning computing. Sure, it will probably be able to edit a few minute clips in iMovie etc, but it's main purpose is a ultra portable and a media house (trying not to use the term media center) control admin.

Anyway... just my wishes...

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by Heavy

Your specs do sound about the same as a MB. It's funny 'cuz about five people so far have commented on how small the MB is. Of course there is still smaller out there. The powerbook 12" was a nice size, but it looks like a toy and hard to see details, compared to the MB. Maybe a widescreen 12 or something.

If the specs are the same as the MB including the screen size how can Apple magically make it even smaller?

[Kerrigan]

It can be done, but the price would go up.

For instance, the Sony SZ has specs similar to the MacBook but it's smaller and lighter. It's also considerably more expensive.

A bit pointless though.

[icruise]

Ideally, you would get rid of the DVD drive and possibly even use a iPod-sized hard disk to help get some of the weight down (there are Windows laptops that already do this). It's not realistic to expect the same specs as the MacBook, though. And by the way, I'll believe that they are working on a "MacBook Light" when I see it.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

a laptop without a media drive. Haven't seen that since 1993. No thanks.

[icruise]

Where have you been looking SAS? They're all over the place in the Windows world. This argument has been done to death, but if you don't want a portable without a drive you don't have to buy one. There are those of us who hardly ever use the internal drive and would prefer to have a smaller and lighter notebook.

[Eug Wanker]

^^^ Yeah, some people like them. I personally hate them. I'm not convinced that Apple will release a laptop without an optical drive, but who knows.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by Icruise

Where have you been looking SAS? They're all over the place in the Windows world. This argument has been done to death, but if you don't want a portable without a drive you don't have to buy one. There are those of us who hardly ever use the internal drive and would prefer to have a smaller and lighter notebook.

Who cares, many PC's also have floppy drives still.

Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do it.

[icruise]

Thanks for the non-sequitur. The only way that the floppy drive would be relevant to this discussion is if you were comparing the internal optical drive to the internal floppy -- many people have no use for either one of them.

And why isn't it a good idea again to remove the optical drive again? Why should I be forced to have an optical drive that I literally never use? (Remember, we're talking about an ultraportable here, not something that would be your only computer) Why do you dismiss as stupid anything that you personally don't like?

As I said above, I don't expect Apple to make something like this, but I would certainly like one.

[nJm]

I wouldn't expect Apple to sell anything that requires extra bits and pieces to be plugged in to get full functionality. All their products are wonderfully integrated. I don't think they'd make a notebook without an optical burner.

[wilsonng]

Well, the new Macs are coming out without an internal modem and now they sell the Apple USB modem. It's not quite so integrated anymore. Sad to say it but integration may come at the price of obsolescence.

Yes, there are folks that think the modem should go the way of the dinosaurs but it's helpful in travel destinations where broadband just isn't readily available.

But then again, I remember the outrage of losing the 3.5" floppy way back when. Now, nobody in the Mac world really misses it.

[slugslugslug]

Originally Posted by nJm

I wouldn't expect Apple to sell anything that requires extra bits and pieces to be plugged in to get full functionality. All their products are wonderfully integrated. I don't think they'd make a notebook without an optical burner.

Yes, but Icruise's conceded that he doesn't think it's gonna happen. He's just saying he would like it if it did. That is, a notebook without an optical burner is useful to some people, even if SWG doesn't want one and Apple's unlikely to make one. Eug, at least, gets that, even though his preference is for a built-in optical. FWIW, if Apple makes a MacBook with no optical drive, I'm buying it.

[michaelb]

I'd vote for an optical driveless laptop too. Rarely use it. Hearing the thing adjust its motor every time I lift the lid annoys me.

For people whose only computer is a laptop then yes, they need one. But for people like me who treat a laptop as a satellite, and have a desktop with 23" display for sit down work, it's different.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Icruise

And why isn't it a good idea again to remove the optical drive again? Why should I be forced to have an optical drive that I literally never use? (Remember, we're talking about an ultraportable here, not something that would be your only computer) Why do you dismiss as stupid anything that you personally don't like?

Ditto that.

[Andy8]

Originally Posted by Simon

Ditto that.

100% agreed.

I have optical drives in my other macs, I do not need another.

[masugu]

Yup. An ultra portable should be just that. Folks who cannot afford and ultra portable, a desktop AND another more featured laptop should re-consider an ultra portable. The latter are for true road warriors with Docking stations.

BTW, am I the only one cheesed off that the recent data base corruption at Macnn has reduced me from a veteran member back down to a Sr. Member?? I wonder if I will get my ranking back.

[chipchen]

Oh, and one more thing. That 10.4" LCD I want... I'd prefer a VERY high resolution... like say... the same resolution as the MacBook.

[Frans]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

If the specs are the same as the MB including the screen size how can Apple magically make it even smaller?

There is a lot of casing space around the 13" screen, they could easily win 2 cm.

It could certainly be thinner without a DVD/CD drive.

Main thing for me however is weight, not the footprint, as long as it's not much bigger than a regular A4 (30X20 cm)

[Frans]

Originally Posted by chipchen

I'd prefer an ULTRA portable.

- 10.4" Widescreen LCD
- NO optical drive
- Boots from flash or 60GB iPod size drive
- Touch screen capability (but not a tablet)
- Built-in WiFi and Bluetooth
- Maybe 90% size keyboard or something
- FireWire 400 (but not likely)
- USB 2.0 (at least three)
- Mini-DVI out
- NO modem, yes ethernet port
- Headphone port
- No expansion slot
- One slot for memory to save space (will be upgradeable to the 2GB chips)
- MAYBE built-in isight.

This could easily weight in at about 3 pounds...

Hey chipchen, that's a very nice feature list. The Sony Vaio TR-2 I had comes pretty close, it had a 1200x800 screen squeezed into 10,4", and it even had an a built-in camera, optical drive and a memory-stick slot, and the whole package was less than 3 pounds. Very cool.

Apart from the Windows OS and the horrible Sony-tweaks that made the system very unreliable it was a great machine :-) However, for me the screen was a bit to small to be comfortable to write on, so I switched to the S-series, which have a 13" screen and are about 2 kg.

[Frans]

Originally Posted by chipchen

Oh, and one more thing. That 10.4" LCD I want... I'd prefer a VERY high resolution... like say... the same resolution as the MacBook.

That has been around for more than 2 years, should not be a problem. Oh, and I forgot, the Sony Vaio TR-series is a bit thick...

[Frans]

Originally Posted by Icruise

And why isn't it a good idea again to remove the optical drive again? Why should I be forced to have an optical drive that I literally never use? (Remember, we're talking about an ultraportable here, not something that would be your only computer) Why do you dismiss as stupid anything that you personally don't like?

Big big bonuspoints for Icruise!!!!

[f1000]

Count me in as a potential customer for the MacBook Slim. I don't mind the current MacBook's lateral dimensions, but I'd love to see the current iteration's bezel trimmed down and chassis thickness reduced. I rarely use my PB's internal optical drive, and I always transfer files using Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, Ethernet, a 3G modem, or a USB flash drive. The only time I need a DVD drive nowadays is to rip new movies/CDs to the HD, and desktop drives do the job much better.

The emphasis for a MacBook Slim should be on portability. If that means customers must forgo having a dedicated video card, then so be it. Graphics professionals should get a larger screened MacBook Pro anyway. One more thing: I'd like to see Apple make a MacBook Slim out of something stiffer than aluminum. I don't see why they can't go with the stainless steel aesthetic used in iPods. The increase in heft would be nominal.

[masugu]

The Sony Tx-series shoudl be Apple's model to go one better. The size here is right...but lots of issues - Windows of course, keyboard blows... Nice featrures include the ablity to turn on the AV functions - ex: DVD music with out booting Windows. Also has WWAN services via subscription with Cingular. This is pathetically slow, but if you not near a Hot Spot and need to get email...

[phillryu]

Does an 'ultra portable' have to be as large as you guys are describing? I was hoping for an almost DS lite sized Mac that could auto pickup local wifi networks, check mail, chat, etc. with a sidekick-like keyboard. Ideally, pocket sized. Does anyone see this as a remote possibility? I wouldn't be looking for much power, just enough to drive some nice Apple PDA-like software + the network stuff. And I can imagine some really nice shareware apps for this as well.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

a laptop without a media drive. Haven't seen that since 1993. No thanks.

We've come a long way in the peripheral media department since 1993. I hate that the Duo that still gets some use in my house doesn't have any removable media option; I have to shut it down, plug in the scsi drive, reboot, and load my media onto it. Today, though, we have hot swappable usb and firewire devices and simple network connections.

Personally, I can't remember the last time I used the optical drive on my iBook. For the amount of time I use it, having an external optical drive would easily suffice.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by phillryu

Does an 'ultra portable' have to be as large as you guys are describing? I was hoping for an almost DS lite sized Mac that could auto pickup local wifi networks, check mail, chat, etc. with a sidekick-like keyboard. Ideally, pocket sized. Does anyone see this as a remote possibility? I wouldn't be looking for much power, just enough to drive some nice Apple PDA-like software + the network stuff. And I can imagine some really nice shareware apps for this as well.

PSP is the ideal size for me. If the platform wasn't so closed by Sony, the PSP would be my ideal portable device.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

Who cares, many PC's also have floppy drives still.

Interesting that you mention the floppy drive; a device that Apple got rid of (a little prematurely, since there was nothing to replace it's functionality until affordable USB drives arrived a few years later) to conserve space.

[phillryu]

And thinking more about this, I can see it functioning without a media drive (or dock) similar to the iPod, with wireless + wired syncing of information and USB 2.0 connectivity to mount it as a HD and transfer over files / update firmware / the OS.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Interesting that you mention the floppy drive; a device that Apple got rid of (a little prematurely, since there was nothing to replace it's functionality until affordable USB drives arrived a few years later) to conserve space.

I think you got it the wrong way around. Only because companies like Apple stopped using floppies, affordable USB drives became popular. There was no 'too early' for the FDD. It should have been exterminated a lot earlier.

[f1000]

Originally Posted by phillryu

Does an 'ultra portable' have to be as large as you guys are describing? I was hoping for an almost DS lite sized Mac that could auto pickup local wifi networks, check mail, chat, etc. with a sidekick-like keyboard. Ideally, pocket sized. Does anyone see this as a remote possibility? I wouldn't be looking for much power, just enough to drive some nice Apple PDA-like software + the network stuff. And I can imagine some really nice shareware apps for this as well.

You're describing a PDA, not a laptop. Both Apple and Palm have gone down that route and found it wanting. I'd prefer that MacBooks stay laptops. Apple should instead morph the iPod into a touchscreen PDA or cell phone.

[slugslugslug]

Yeah, if/when Apple comes up with a UI for a computer that fits in your pocket, it won't be OS X (even if it looks similar), and it'll come on a phone.

[wuzup101]

I would definitely buy an apple 10.4" notebook without an optical drive as described above. I have both portable HDDs and portable DL DVD burners. This would be a great little notebook to carry around campus for takeing notes, watching some iTunes TV shows or movies during downtime between classes, browsing the web, etc... Make it as fully loaded as possible, but less an optical drive to save weight and size. Also, give it decent battery life (minimum 6-7 hours under normal use with wifi on). That may require an "extended" battery, and that's fine with me. To be very honest, weight matters very little to me, it's the size that counts. My 15" powerbook could weigh 10lbs, and I would never know the difference, as long as it persisted to be smaller than my paper notebooks. I would absolutely love a nice small 10.4" widescrean mac, especially if they made it feel solid in design - something worthy of being an everyday roadwarrior machine.

[StevenWRX]

ditto, i want a ultra portable mac too. the macbook still weighs in too much for me to carry everyday for hours at school.

[lordarka]

I dunno. There may be some who don't need the optical drives in their portables, but do they make up a significant portion of the laptop market? Besides, I've already seen well built notebooks weighing 3lbs or less that continue to support integrated optical drives (The Panasonic Toughbook W4 series comes to mind...) These machines still manage to get decent battery life.

I for one think built in optical drives are exremely useful on any machine, and especially on portables.. They make software installation on the go easier, and they allow for transfer of presentation or other data from machine to machine easier. There are some professional apps that also continue to require an installation CD at every appllication launch as a form of piracy prevention (also true of many games). Given the ubiquity of optical media, I am unwilling to give up the versatility of being able to read it on the go for a few extra grams of weight saved. I definitely think it's possible to design an ultralite that keeps the optical drive as an option. Perhaps machines without optical drives could be a BTO option?

Another thing that might contribute significantly to cost savings are flash memory based hard drives.. though I think commercially feasible solutions are still a few years away..

Arka C.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by lordarka

I dunno. There may be some who don't need the optical drives in their portables, but do they make up a significant portion of the laptop market?

Given the number of PC laptops that provide this form factor, I think it's safe to say that the answer is yes. However, this is not the question we should be asking. What we have to ask is whether it makes sense for Apple to make one. Niche PC makers can survive by catering to a very small percentage of the PC market, since the PC market is so big. But Apple's market is already a niche market.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Apple wants to make money. It needs to have enough computer models available to attract customers while still limiting the number of separate machines it produces to reduce costs. Let's say that 10% of Apple's notebook customers would buy a "MacBook Light" if it were available. What you need to ask first is, how many of those people would have still bought an Apple portable if there was no "MacBook Light"? I think the answer is, almost all of them. I would assume that an Apple ultraportable would be priced somewhere in between the MacBook and the MacBook Pro, so if most "MacBook Light" buyers would have bought MacBooks, introducing a MBL might make sense. But if very many of them were going to buy MacBook Pros, Apple might even end up losing money. It's a tricky balance, and I think Apple has just decided that it wouldn't be worth the time and trouble to make such a machine.

Of course, it is possible that Boot Camp might make it possible for Apple to function as a niche PC maker in the same way as other companies do. Who knows? If they could attract enough of the PC ultraportable market, then it might make sense for them to make a MBL.

I for one think built in optical drives are exremely useful on any machine, and especially on portables.. They make software installation on the go easier, and they allow for transfer of presentation or other data from machine to machine easier. There are some professional apps that also continue to require an installation CD at every appllication launch as a form of piracy prevention (also true of many games). Given the ubiquity of optical media, I am unwilling to give up the versatility of being able to read it on the go for a few extra grams of weight saved. I definitely think it's possible to design an ultralite that keeps the optical drive as an option. Perhaps machines without optical drives could be a BTO option?

Again, let me point out that people have different preferences in this regard. The market for an ultraportable is not made up of people who use their optical drives every day.

That said, how often do you install software from a CD or DVD? For me, it's almost never. I think the last time was when I bought the latest version of Office last year. Professional apps that require a CD in the drive? I've never used one, but in any case people are not going to be using an ultraportable for this kind of application. And a BTO option for no optical drive makes no sense because the point is not just saving the weight of the drive. Getting rid of the drive frees up the computer's design significantly, allowing it to be thinner and smaller than computers with drives.

[slugslugslug]

Originally Posted by Icruise

Given the number of PC laptops that provide this form factor, I think it's safe to say that the answer is yes. However, this is not the question we should be asking. What we have to ask is whether it makes sense for Apple to make one.

Quoted for emphasis. This is why I keep saying I'd buy one in an instant, but I don't think it's happening.

So all y'all should get out there and get some switchers, 'cause I want Apple's market to get big enough for them to diversify their laptop line. And I know y'all are all about my needs.

[f1000]

Originally Posted by lordarka

I for one think built in optical drives are exremely useful on any machine, and especially on portables.. They make software installation on the go easier, and they allow for transfer of presentation or other data from machine to machine easier. There are some professional apps that also continue to require an installation CD at every appllication launch as a form of piracy prevention (also true of many games).

Just to add to Icruise's excellent post, I was transferring files between coworkers' computers using a USB flash drive back in 2002. What Mac or PC doesn't have a USB port, and who can't get their hands on a cheap USB flash drive (e.g., iPod shuffle) nowadays?

I haven't played a computer game in years nor do I have any currently installed on my PowerBook, so this particular copy protection issue isn't one for me. I would keep any apps that required a dongle/copy protect CD on an office PowerMac.

Remember, living with a MacBook Lite will require compromise. Apple has already built a MacBook for those needing an internal optical.

Originally Posted by lordarka

Another thing that might contribute significantly to cost savings are flash memory based hard drives.. though I think commercially feasible solutions are still a few years away..

This doesn't make any sense. Flash memory is more expensive per MB than traditional hard drives and we're discussing the possibility of Apple creating a niche portable within half a year. It's a sure thing that a MacBook Lite would not be sold as an economical solution, but as a pricey convenience. Smaller usually equals more expensive when it comes to consumer electronics, ceteris paribus.

[mduell]

edit: bah.

[mduell]

edit: bah.

[mduell]

edit: bah.

[segaslave]

no optical drive would be cool with me. i dont use mine that much as it is, of course a usb/firewire optional one would be great for when its needed. theyd have to offer some network installs or ipod installs.

no modem, who needs it and if you do buy the usb modem.

no ethernet, im tempted to say go this route, theres plenty of wifi connections. worst case they make some kind of wifi to ether/modem addon.

wired addon battery packs, keep a battery in your bag and run the wire out to get more time out of the built in batt.

widesmall screen, very high res.

1 ram slot, 2 gig max.

flash ram in stead of an hd would be interesting but i dunno... the cost would be outrageous. youd need at least 10 gigs to make it functional. then again they can push the use of the bigger ipod hds as easy addon storage. 60gig ipod you take it on the road devote half to music(more than enough for a trip) the other half for storage.

it sounds like alot of adding on, but i think the idea is youll only add on the things you need and want. also youd only have them out when you really need them, the rest of the time they can stay in your bag. if you find you Need all the addons then youd be better off buying the normal macbook.

[slugslugslug]

I'm probably the only one here besides mduell who finds that Fujitsu appealing. Of course, since I can always find something not to like, I'd rather get something a pound heavier with a longer standard battery life and a 2.5" HD. I imagine both those things would make it cheaper (cause $2000 and up for Core Solo? ouch!). And a sub-4-lb. notebook is still nice and light.

I gotta admit, I don't even hate the design, though IMHO the MacBook's is still way better.

[mduell]

Fujitsu LifeBook Q2010:
12" 1280x800 screen
Core Solo
1.8" HDD
Wifi, BT, gigE
1.75 hour battery
2.2 pounds
0.78" thin

You can get 7 hours of battery life, but it adds a half pound and 0.6" to the back.

Or something like Dell's new D420.

edit: Oh, I dun well. Oops.

[icruise]

Certainly not the greatest design in the world (what's with the huge screen bezel and those A B C D function buttons?) but yes, that's similar to what I'm talking about. $3199 for the top model seems pretty outrageous, though.

[Frans]

Those LifeBook specs look really neat. The reason I switched from a Sony Vaio TR to the S-series was because the 10,4" screen (1200x800) was just to small, the 13" had the same resolution but was much better for writing. A 12" screen would be very OK. 2,7 pounds with 7 hours of battery life sounds great to me...

[frankthetank966]

When is the ETA? I am about to buy a Macbook in Aug. should I wait?

[slugslugslug]

The conventional wisdom is already that you shouldn't base purchasing decisions on rumors. And this is a particularly weak rumor, in that it's speculation from an analyst, not any sort of alleged leak from an alleged insider.

If August comes around, and you haven't seen corroborating reports in several sources (and macosrumors.com does not count), buy your MacBook.