[Moderator]

We all talk here in terms of Mac/PC. But I don't think average PC users (particularly older ones) think like that. They think, and rightly so, that a Mac is a PC (albeit somehow different). And they certainly don't associate Windows with "PC's". If anything "PC" is just an outdated way of referring to a computer. So it sounds like we're saying get a Mac or get a computer..as if a Mac isn't a computer.

Well, I've noticed Apple has jumped all over it with the new ads and website. But I wonder...did they create the dichotomy? Or did it start with the Mac faithful? Has it gone mainstream in your opinion? Does it make sense?

[Y3a]

When the first Apple computers came out they were considered "toys". The First "Mac" didn't do much to sway the opinions of the mainframe IT Dolts that were in the positions at major companies to get any. most were novelties, when most Computer geeks still worked off terminals. Mac's were in the little room with the documentation specialists, and they were STILL thought of as toys. Even though, in 1989 the Mac SE with postscript printer was far superior to ANY "PC" at the time, it had been entrenched in the late 60's early 70'2 era IT Managers closed mind. The excellent graphical interface the Mac had was ackowledged, but the PC types, knowing that their PC's were behind the technology curve were putting all their eggs in ONE basket, Windows. They have been behind ever since, and it's a matter of ego or ignorance of other platforms(caused by training at MCSE schools) that has kept Mac's out of the mainstream. Some STILL think they are toys.


PC's are though of as Windows boxes with Intel or AMD processors, Mac's are something else, that won't run juniors games. Most people don't understand that all computers have similar functionality, but the names of the software might be different. most PC types don't remember that the Office Suite was first developed for the Mac, and continues to have more features available than the Winders version.


PC users think in terms of a specific piece of software(access, Exchange) whereas mac Users look for a piece of software that does what they want, and don't really care about a specific name.
In some ways its a different way of addressing the problem.

I've noticed in the "real world" that most PC types know nothing of what a Mac can do, only that they don't get viruses. Most Mac types know exactly what a PC can do and don't care.

[ReggieX]

"PC" is just shorthand from the early days, from "IBM PC" and "IBM PC-compatible." "PC" generally means an x86 computer running Windows.

[paul w]

Yeah my mom up until recently sometimes referred to PCs as "IBMs". Of course she was amazed to learn her powerbook's porcessor was mad by IBM.

[Moderator]

Originally Posted by ReggieX

"PC" is just shorthand from the early days, from "IBM PC" and "IBM PC-compatible." "PC" generally means an x86 computer running Windows.

My understanding is that PC simply means Personal Computer (as opposed to a mainframe). So a Mac would qualify as a personal computer. That its x86 and runs windows seems to me to be something that's been added on, possibly by Macophiles, to differentiate it from the Mac.

an IBM compatible PC is just that. The Mac is obviously not that. But its still a PC...personal computer.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Moderator

My understanding is that PC simply means Personal Computer (as opposed to a mainframe).

Not quite. The term for what we commonly think of as a "personal computer" as opposed to a mainframe is microcomputer. That's not a term that's heard much anymore, but if you've ever wondered where the computer-store name "Micro Center" comes from, there's your answer.

"Personal Computer" is a brand name which has since become more or less synonymous with the microcomputer term, much like "Band-Aid" is more or less synonymous with adhesive bandage or "Kleenex" is synonymous with facial tissue. I'm not sure the term "personal computer" is even trademarked anymore, actually.

[Brass]

Originally Posted by Millennium

"Personal Computer" is a brand name which has since become more or less synonymous with the microcomputer term, much like "Band-Aid" is more or less synonymous with adhesive bandage or "Kleenex" is synonymous with facial tissue. I'm not sure the term "personal computer" is even trademarked anymore, actually.

This is interesting considering what the brand name "Personal Computer" (IBM-PC & compatibles) really meant, and what it still applies to now, and what it would apply to in the future. I'm thinking of the original IBM-PC architecture and how much of it still exists in today's PCs. I think that as long as they have a BIOS, you could call them PCs, but once Intel's EFI takes off, and the BIOS is no longer included in new micro-computers, then there's really nothing left of the original PC in the machine, and it is therefore not a PC in the "IBM-PC" sense.

Having said that, I guess that means that the Intel Macs are not really PCs in the IBM-PC sense, as they don't contain any of the IBM-PC defined architecture, as such (inc. no BIOS).

[Tesseract]

Originally Posted by paul w

Yeah my mom up until recently sometimes referred to PCs as "IBMs". Of course she was amazed to learn her powerbook's porcessor was mad by IBM.

If it's a PB G4, then the processor was actually made by Motorola.

As Millennium said, "PC" was a brand name which has been diluted to refer to any computer compatible with the original PC. And as Brass said, there has been enough of an architectural change that current "PC-compatible" machines are very different from the original.

Using the same logic, though, I can state with some confidence that none (or very few) of you are reading this on a Mac, since the New World PowerMac architecture (and now the Intel Mac architecture) have nothing in common with the original Macintosh.

In other words, it's still useful/valid (IMO) to use the term "PC" to refer to a machine that's evolved from the original IBM PC or one of its clones. Note that this now includes server-class machines that aren't even "Personal Computers" in the original sense of being owned and used by a single person.

[cpt kangarooski]

Personal computer effectively meaning microcomputer (not many people had personal minicomputers, and no one had personal mainframes) predates the IBM PC. It's as though those boring guys just had to pick the most generic name imaginable.

It just got associated with IBM's line, and the various compatables, because there was literally nothing better to call them, because IBM picked such a bad name.

If it had been the IBM Foo, then people would've made Foo-compatable computers, and there would be Mac and Foo camps, but everyone would call them all personal computers, just as they'd also call them all microcomputers. By using the generic term, they effectively (but not technically) appropriated the generic PC name to their own camp.

[Tesseract]

dp.

[m a d r a]

most windoze users don't even realise that there is other software out there that isnae made by microsoft - never mind other operating systems! i'm sure i'm not the only one who has the following conversation on a regular basis:

[PC using] friend: you work with computers. can you help me with mine. whenever i... <insert frighteningly unintuitive windoze procedure> it... <tedious windoze catalogue of errors> ...

me: sorry. i only deal with macs. i don;t know anything about windoze

friend: [oblivious to the distinction] eh?... but will you have a look. you know about computers...

me: [through gritted teeth] i don't know anything about PCs. i use macs

friend: [confused] what's the difference?

me: it has a different operating system

friend: [more confused] a different what?!

me: [counting to ten and breathing deeply] a different operating system. macs don't have windows on them

friend: [blankly] what's windows?...

etc. etc. for several minutes, until you feel your own brain slowly starting to ooze out yer earholes.

[theolein]

The differences between Apple and the rest of the computing world are smaller than they used to be. OSX is an excellent operating system, but Windows XP is pretty usable and fairly stable as well (even though most Mac users won't agree, regardless of whether or not they know it as well as their OSX system) I work all day on a Windows machine and it works very well and does its job.

And now the last barrier in hardware has fallen as well. Apple's newest MacBook Pro has very similar specs to a top of the line Acer Travelmate (Travelmate is faster -2GHz Core Duo, has more ram-2GB, better graphic card-512MB, and more ports-4USB, card reader, PCMCIA and PC/Express54, but no 7400rpm drive option and is heavier-1pound more) but costs more. Given that both Acer and Apple MacBooks now use the same Intel chipsets and are even made in the same factories, one could well ask oneself which one should one buy?

I expect that with MS Vista that the differences will become even smaller in OS terms, so what makes a computer a Mac these days and what a PC?

[turtle777]

Well, but you forget one thing that definitely helps the average non-versed Apple / OS X user: no viruses, no spyware, no worms, no remote exploits.

-t

[theolein]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Well, but you forget one thing that definitely helps the average non-versed Apple / OS X user: no viruses, no spyware, no worms, no remote exploits.

-t

Yet. I don't think the virus situation is going to change overnight on OSX, but the fact that an increased marketshare will bring more attention to the platform can mean it might change. On top of that Windows Vista might be an improvement on what Windows has been up until now.

I just think that too much complacency is not a good thing.

[paul w]

Originally Posted by Tesseract

If it's a PB G4, then the processor was actually made by Motorola.

Oops I meant her G5 iMac. Anyway carry on.

It'll be interesting to see how Apple manages to protect their OS while trying to stay competitive with a more level playing field as far as hardware is concerned. They may really HAVE push the design envelop to distinguish themselves. We've seen that while a better OS draws some, the real wows in the mainstream seem to have come from the revolutionary design of the iMac and I suppose the powerbooks.