[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Scifience

They were disappeared.

MacNN is really turning into something it used to not be. The very thing that gave this page hits.

Originally Posted by mkbhatia

1)2) IntelliTXT has been removed pending a discussion with Google Adsense; thanks to Scott's post our entire account may be in jeopardy.

Uh no...

Originally Posted by dreilly1

It's unfortunate that your account with Adsense is in jepoardy, but Scott's post has nothing to do with it. Whoever in your organization made the agreement to use IntelliTXT without understanding the terms of the Google agreement is the person who put your account in jepoardy. If anything, Scott may have helped you out by bringing the matter to a resolution sooner, minimizing the amount of time your site was in conflict with Google's terms. He could have done it in a less public manner, to be sure, but his post did not cause your problem.

You got the cigar.

Originally Posted by Nick

No, we were already researching the matter.

After you implemented it.

Way to go!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by tooki

Just an FYI to you guys, it was a staff member that deleted those posts, not a forum team member. We're on your side.

tooki

Then lets ditch this place, and you mods re-create the same old style elsewhere.

We will still bitch about you. But hey.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by euphras

I would even go further. The lounge also is part of the well, that brings the money. Maybe time for a break.......

I would go even farther. If these come back, I will manually go through every one of my posts and EDIT them so there is NO CONTENT. We, the users of these forums, are what make them. WE do not need MacNN, MacNN needs US. Without us, there is no content. Period. Think about how the forums would look if the people who contributed to them edited their posts to say "DELETED DUE TO CONTENT INSERTED BY MACNN WITHOUT MY CONSENT".

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

I would go even farther. If these come back, I will manually go through every one of my posts and EDIT them so there is NO CONTENT. We, the users of these forums, are what make them. WE do not need MacNN, MacNN needs US. Without us, there is no content. Period. Think about how the forums would look if the people who contributed to them edited their posts to say "DELETED DUE TO CONTENT INSERTED BY MACNN WITHOUT MY CONSENT".

People have tried that already, in previous MacNN kerfuffles -- it is impossible to erase all of your posts yourself, because any posts that are locked and archived are not editable by you.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Dork.

People have tried that already, in previous MacNN kerfuffles -- it is impossible to erase all of your posts yourself, because any posts that are locked and archived are not editable by you.

That's still 2 years worth of content not in the archives.

The fact that all that remains is stuff that has been locked strikes me as poetic justice.

I was just going to bail if things continue unresolved, but I like this better.

I'm in.

[Mrjinglesusa]

I don't care about all the archived and locked stuff but if these INtelliTXT ads come back into forum posts I would have no problem going through my posts and editing them to only say:

"THE CONTENT OF THIS POST HAS BEEN DELETED DUE TO INtelliTXT ADS BEING INSERTED BY MACNN WITHOUT MY CONSENT".

If enough people did this those ads would go away right quick (either that or they would take out the edit post feature). LMAO

[mactalent]

Originally Posted by Silky Voice of The Gorn

WHEREAS, IntelliTXT appears to all users by default;
WHEREAS, only registered users can disable it;
WHEREAS, it is safe to assume that registered users of MacNN forums detest invasive, crass and unwanted commercialization forced within the content of their posts;

THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that IntelliTXT should be turned off by default for registered MacNN users.

Thank you.

I don't like the idea that disabling the Vibrant links requires a cookie. I think it should be opt-in, that ENabling them requires a cookie.

Also the text about requires a cookie disappears from the privacy page once you disable the Vibrant...

"Do you want to disable the IntelliTXT links? Deactivation requires the use of cookie technology. If you should delete or refresh your cookies, please note that the service will be re-activated automatically.

Click here to disable."

"Do you want to enable the IntelliTXT links?

Click here to enable."

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by mactalent

"Do you want to enable the IntelliTXT links?

Click here to enable."

Yeah, that would make sense.

Unfortunately, sense was left behind.

[Simon]

I would just like to inform you that if you feel MacNN has gone too far with this green crap, the half-hearted excuses MacNN management has offered and the way they show disrespect for the content we all have provided them with throughout the past years, there is an alternative being built up by madra and other long time members of this forum. You might be interested in talking a look at a board made by actual forum users for forum users. No ads, no green bullshit, and no appointed mods. Check it out at http://www.appletalker.com/forum/

It might be a bit empty (and slow for the matter) right now, but that will get better as soon as others (yes, that's you too) contribute.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by Simon

there is an alternative being built up by madra and other long time members of this forum.

Good luck, but your post may not survive, The admins have deleted posts in this thread, so I wouldn't put it past them to do it again.

Mike

[Kevin]

Too late

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Maflynn

Good luck, but your post may not survive, The admins have deleted posts in this thread, so I wouldn't put it past them to do it again.

I'm taking tooki by his word about him being on our side and such.

And if Misha and Nick want to delete it, I say to them, bring it on. The more bad treatment they give contributors here, the more people will be driven to other places.

[Gamoe]

Originally Posted by Simon

I'm taking tooki by his word about him being on our side and such.

And if Misha and Nick want to delete it, I say to them, bring it on. The more bad treatment they give contributors here, the more people will be driven to other places.

Agreed. Deleting such posts will only make MacNN look worse. I'm pretty sure that none of the respectable mods here, like tooki, would do that sort of thing, either. At least it seems that our beloved Nick is out and unable to cause more trouble...

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by Simon

I'm taking tooki by his word about him being on our side and such.

And if Misha and Nick want to delete it, I say to them, bring it on. The more bad treatment they give contributors here, the more people will be driven to other places.

Oh I agree and I was not trying to say him but rather mkbhatia. It's the administrators and staff members who seem to have a holier then though arrogant attitude towards us lowly members.

Its funny but when you start looking at the big picture you really get to see how the admins/staff looks down on us:
mkbhatia deleting a post by Scott because it directed a link to google's adsense. It was mkbhatia's action of breaking that agreement by using intellitxt but yet he blame's Scott for harming Macnn?

Nick with his insigthful posts of us not getting it so shut up or when someone mentioned macupdate, he took a nutty and put up a censor filter on the word.

These are not the actions of a mature respected group of people who understand that it is us who make macnn successful. If we weren't around they wouldn't be. They seem more interested in adding the intellitext then fixing the stability of this site. Last year the outages and interuptions were embarressing what was their answer, lets add intellitext.

I figured I could rant a bit because mkbhatia will delete this post because "The posts were not constructive and in fact destructive in nature"

Mike

[Diggory Laycock]

Urgh - I've seen those green fake link ads on other sites - they are terrible.

How could you even consider using them here? Poor Judgement.

I can guarantee that if they are implemented in the future - you will find that this site's traffic/reputation/advertising revenue will go way down. (It may take a while because of the existing goodwill, but most people will move to another forum in the end.)

Mac users care about aesthetics and usability.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Simon

I'm taking tooki by his word about him being on our side and such.

And if Misha and Nick want to delete it, I say to them, bring it on. The more bad treatment they give contributors here, the more people will be driven to other places.

Yep, I consider one of my jobs to be acting as advocate for the members. (I am also in the unenviable position of having to do the same for management. So everyone hates me! LOL)

Misha is long gone. Really. He's not here any more, not even under a pseudonym.

tooki

[chris v]

So. Are the green links still on "hold," pending a new trial period in the near future, or have they been abandoned completely as a concept going forward?

(just my weekly check-in. I'll quit making those pretty soon if the concept isn't disavowed by management.)

[Silky Voice of The Gorn]

I suspect they have "quietly" disappeared, kinna like Luca Brasi.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by tooki

Misha is long gone. Really. He's not here any more, not even under a pseudonym.

In referring to "Misha and Nick", I think he meant "Monish and Nick." Of course, Nick is gone now...

[subego]

No official word for 4 days.

I'm sure we're being "punished" for being ungrateful little rats.

To think, in the past I've actually donated money to these people.

Unlikely I will have such an egregious lapse of judgement in the future.

[porieux]

Why would you donate money to a site with ads??

[subego]

Originally Posted by porieux

Why would you donate money to a site with ads??

So you want me to justify something I've already admitted was a lapse in good judgement?

Way to kick a man when he's down.

The lapse wasn't donating to a site with ads though. The lapse was donating to a site where the management doesn't even understand why I would donate.

I love this community.

I get such a ridiculous return from being a part of it that having to look at a few banner ads (which my eye just passes over to get to the good stuff) seems too small a price to pay.

And too small it is. Something tells me that they aren't exactly swimming in money here. I imagine eating and rent often win out over paying the hamster's medical bills. If the real motivator behind the treatment we're receiving isn't desperation, you can color me shocked.

It still comes back to the community though. I joined back during the NFN debacle, and was genuinely moved at how the community persevered and triumphed. Since then, I've only felt a stronger bond to this bizarre cross-section of people who's only common denominator is an understanding of "the Macintosh Way".

So I've kicked in every now and again, usually after I re-realize how much I love this place. Especially when I come back from lurking on other (far larger) forums that actually do ask you to pay for the privilege of having them ban you if they feel like it... in addition to ads for Christ's sake.

So there's your answer. This place is important enough to me to put my money where my mouth is. The fact I'll do this despite that they have other revenue streams shows just how important to me it is. I obviously see enough need that I'm not going to begrudge them a harebrained idea like INtelliTXT. Hell, I never even saw one of those things. If that's ultimately what MacNN needs to survive, then so be it.

Were it only presented as such.

I've always imagined the feeling of community with the people here needn't be separated from Monish. Though not a vocal presence, I've always appreciated the blood, sweat, and tears poured into MacNN. My appreciation was apparently squandered. The community's displeasure has not just been dismissed, we have been arrogantly admonished for being displeased in the first place. I still hold out for some acknowledgment that perhaps the emotion of the moment precipitated this instance of suffocating hubris, though as time goes on this seems less and less likely.

Therein lies my regret.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by tooki

Yep, I consider one of my jobs to be acting as advocate for the members. (I am also in the unenviable position of having to do the same for management. So everyone hates me! LOL)

Misha is long gone. Really. He's not here any more, not even under a pseudonym.

tooki

if it makes you feel better I love you

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by subego

No official word for 4 days.

Yes, it would be nice to hear something else from mkbhatia...

[york28]

I've been a member for a few years, and I consider these JavaScript ads a violation of the basic spirit of the web.

On the news page there is a green double-underlined link, the text of which is "Apple". There is one acceptable site that this could link to: Apple.com. Linking anywhere else (some Applelinks.com site in this case) is deceptive to users. I don't care that the mouse-over display says 'sponsored link', it shouldn't have to, because any link should go to where it is expected to go to, not some random site that gave money to the IntelleTXT folk to screw with people.

So I'm going to give MacNN about a week to ditch this crap, and if it's still around I'll never be coming back here for news again. I may hang around the forums, as long as it doesn't return here.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Person Man

Yes, it would be nice to hear something else from mkbhatia...

I have asked him to post an update. I am also curious, and haven't heard anything in days, either.

tooki

[euphras]

Originally Posted by Simon

I would just like to inform you that if you feel MacNN has gone too far with this green crap, the half-hearted excuses MacNN management has offered and the way they show disrespect for the content we all have provided them with throughout the past years, there is an alternative being built up by madra and other long time members of this forum. You might be interested in talking a look at a board made by actual forum users for forum users. No ads, no green bullshit, and no appointed mods. Check it out at http://www.appletalker.com/forum/

It might be a bit empty (and slow for the matter) right now, but that will get better as soon as others (yes, that's you too) contribute.

Quoted for emphasis

[Mark Edwards]

Okay, the Intellitext is still on the news page, and there's been no announcements or information coming from the powers that be in a week. Even though I can turn them off and block them, I know, I still consider it too great of an insult to have such a lame and intrusive advertising scheme AT ALL. Its certainly more insulting in the forums, but its more acceptable on the news page.

This whole thing is just too lame. I'm gonna go find another Mac news site and put that on my daily bookmark list. You're not the only game in town Macnn. Adios!

[Dr.Michael]

Originally Posted by Mark Edwards

Okay, the Intellitext is still on the news page, and there's been no announcements or information coming from the powers that be in a week. Even though I can turn them off and block them, I know, I still consider it too great of an insult to have such a lame and intrusive advertising scheme AT ALL. Its certainly more insulting in the forums, but its more acceptable on the news page.

This whole thing is just too lame. I'm gonna go find another Mac news site and put that on my daily bookmark list. You're not the only game in town Macnn. Adios!

That would have been a statement of a hero if you had 8000 posts since 1991, but 2?

[Gamoe]

Originally Posted by Dr.Michael

That would have been a statement of a hero if you had 8000 posts since 1991, but 2?

Even if he isn't a frequent poster, he may be a daily reader of the news page and lurker on the forums. Anyway people, the forum alternative is clear as indicated in my (current, as of this post) sig.

[theolein]

I haven't been visiting here often lately (apart from the odd game or two of perverted ping pong with aberdeenangus and cody's dawg, which I would miss but could probably live without). I only found out about the idiotTXT today, thankfully, for I would have ranted and raved against it with the best of them, because it is such a bad idea, it makes Microsoft's Clippy look wise and well thought out.

This forum thrives (or used to, in any case) on the fact that so many people post such wonderous odes to Macdom and the fact that the place long ago reached a certain self perpetuating critical number of posters to make it an institution that would attract newbies Mac and PC visitors. IdiotTXT is a certain way to chase them away.

I haven't helped out in the OSX section for quite a while (I got tied of the drivel), couldn't really care less if this lives or dies, and don't really care if my posts of full of idiotTXT or not. what bothers me is that it is simply an enormous pain and a hassle. And hwere there's a hassle, the users will usually skip the roost unless you have a really devoted bunch.

This lot aren't

[Since EBCDIC]

Originally Posted by Dr.Michael

That would have been a statement of a hero if you had 8000 posts since 1991, but 2?

A mean-spirited comment, Dr. Michael, and ultimately wrong.

Just as important as contributors are readers, many of whom generate revenue for MacNN by clicking on the ads. (Remember what this thread is all about?)

When the frequent readers give up because they can't tell contributer-generated links from adware-generated links, the entire community loses: the management, the contributors, and the readers.

Succinctly put: this sucks.

[Scifience]

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Scifience

Yes. We knew that the first time, and that thread got "disappeared." I predict that these two posts will be also.

[Dork.]

I Screenshotinated your post before it gets disappeared....

[Since EBCDIC]

You know, it says a lot about how far MacNN has come from its origins when we're talking about "the dissapeared". As they say on fark, my head asplode.

[Scifience]

Originally Posted by Person Man

Yes. We knew that the first time, and that thread got "disappeared." I predict that these two posts will be also.

Maybe they won't see it here, since it doesn't have a thread to itself, and mkbhatia seems to be ignoring this thread at the moment.

My personal guess, though, is that it wasn't mkbhatia who did it. He could have blocked the ad on Google, and didn't - it is at the top of this page as I am writing this.

Edit: Which reminds me, there didn't used to be a Google ad there.

[Scotttheking]

Actually, I deleted that post. Stop spamming for your forums here.
K, thx.

[Scifience]

Originally Posted by Scotttheking

Actually, I deleted that post. Stop spamming for your forums here.
K, thx.

I'm not spamming. I *paid* for those ads, just like any other advertiser on MacNN. The only reason I posted the screenshot is because I thought it rather ironic-looking.

There have been other posts where people link to their Apple blog, web site, etc. and nothing gets deleted. If you look at my posting history, you can see that I am not a spammer in any way.

Even the "free ipod, free gift card, free _______" people only get their threads LOCKED, not deleted.

[Dr.Michael]

Originally Posted by Since EBCDIC

A mean-spirited comment, Dr. Michael, and ultimately wrong.

You are right, it was absolutely mean spirited.

It was tempting to write this comment to someone who dropped in five years ago for one post and now, writing his second post, enragedly said goodbye, wasn't it?

If he were tied to this site, because he liked it a lot, or frequently visited the news, he might have expressed disappointment. Many people who care discuss this here, also enraged, but with the goal to give feedback in order to remove intellitext.

But sitting at home, setting an internal dealine of a week without communicating it to anyone and then leaving with a big blast provokes irony, doesn't it?

But - in order to calm everybody down - I apologize if I inadvertendly insulted a long term reader.

[Mark Edwards]

Originally Posted by Dr.Michael

You are right, it was absolutely mean spirited.

It was tempting to write this comment to someone who dropped in five years ago for one post and now, writing his second post, enragedly said goodbye, wasn't it?

If he were tied to this site, because he liked it a lot, or frequently visited the news, he might have expressed disappointment. Many people who care discuss this here, also enraged, but with the goal to give feedback in order to remove intellitext.

For your information, I have been a daily news reader for five or six years. I did "give feedback" in a previous post. The Intellitext remains, so I've left. In any case, I don't have to satisfy your qualifications to have a legitimate opinion about this ridiculous situation. You think that little number by your name makes you more important than other people? That's sad.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Scotttheking

Actually, I deleted that post. Stop spamming for your forums here.
K, thx.

WTF ?

You have a link to your website in your sig, but delete other people's posts with links to theirs ?

REPORTED.

[Gamoe]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

WTF ?

You have a link to your website in your sig, but delete other people's posts with links to theirs ?

REPORTED.

It seems we have another corrupt moderator here. He took a screenshot of something on MacNN's page... I see no spamming there. What's next, you'll delete people's sig links?

[gorgonzola]

I had meant to post a response, but this has been a very busy week for me and I don't work at MacNN full time (or even part time, really). You are not being punished and it wasn't a deliberate attempt to not respond. I told mkbhatia that I would post the response instead of him in an attempt to cool down the conversation -- it had gotten rather heated earlier. That's the only reason he hasn't posted. It's my fault that this response is delayed, but it wasn't deliberate.

Anyway, here it is.

The intellitxt thing was a screwup. There was a lack of communication among the staff, and the forum admins weren't consulted beforehand as they should have been. There was also a lack of communication between MacNN and its users, as there certainly should have been a post explaining what was going on with intellitxt before simply springing it on everyone. It was just a mistake, and we do apologize for handling it poorly.

This was not a diabolical effort to turn people's post into ad revenue. It was an attempt to try out a different kind of advertising, since maintaining enough revenue to keep MacNN running with full-time employees is always a problem. We understand the argument that it *does* in some sense turn posts into ad revenue and that people don't like it, and other options are being considered that should be more palatable. Normally, we'd gauge feedback from the beginning about this kind of thing, but the rollout was poorly done, as I said above. We may at some later stage want to try out things like these, but we'll be sure to have a reasonable discussion among the forums staff, and also try to give forums users a heads up and a chance to opine before rather than after the fact.

For people who are still seething, I should note the following: Intellitxt is currently disabled on the forums and at the moment there are no plans to reenable it. It's still present on the main news page, but these are two separate issues, so let's at least deal with one at a time.

I should also note that some people read way too much into things like this. We made a mistake -- our intent is not evil. In the past, we have in general been extremely receptive to user feedback and made a lot of effort to keep things the way people like them. We do understand that you write the forums and we have no desire to turn this into a combative issue. For your part, you should understand that if something stops working the way you like, or if we make a change you think is asinine, you should let us know and we do try to deal with these things. Don't enter the issue *assuming* that we did it to be obnoxious, but rather that we may not have noticed something or may not have properly taken certain factors into account. Please begin with a charitable assumption and post in a calm manner, and if things really aren't being responded to properly in a reasonable amount of time (a week), then maybe it's time to make some more noise.

There is really no need to *start* with the noise. You don't need to be afraid that unless you do that, we won't bother to listen. The intellitxt ads were on the forums for maybe a day or two before they were taken down. We really do try to listen to feedback. It's not always possible and it's not always easy, and we don't always do it right, but the point is that we are trying to do it. Everyone on the forum staff is a volunteer and takes the time to participate in the forums for exactly the same reasons all of you do, and we want all the same things for the forums.

I am not currently addressing the issue of intellitxt on the main page because I'd like to resolve the forums point first, but would be more than happy to talk about it later. It'll just become a mess if we're talking about two things at once.

A quick side note since I just noticed a bunch of people mentioning Nick. Nick no longer participates in the forums, so that should no longer be an issue.

So -- given what I posted above, what are your remaining questions or concerns? Let's start a fresh dialogue.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by gorgonzola

So -- given what I posted above and the fact that intellitxt is gone for now, what are your remaining questions or concerns?

Mods deleting posts for no or petty reasons.

[d4nth3m4n]

nice to see someone with the class and maturity to fully address the concerns of the userbase without simply brushing off the sensible arguments put forth.

gorgonzola

P.S. and there's no way i could have NOT posted in this thread. this is legendary.

[Dork.]

Thanks for the explanation, gorgonzola.

Keeping those ads away from the forums, along with a promise to communicate changes like this a little better in the future, is probably sufficient to quell most of the major discontent here.

I think a lot of it (and I was swept up in it the emotional response myself, I'm sorry to say) was due to the fact that since it was such a major change (both in philosophy as well as site operation) and happened with so little warning, a lot of us started to question what else about the site might change without advance warning. It's not necessarily change that was the problem (although I don't think anyone here thought this particular change was a good idea), it was the lack of warning and discussion.

All of us have things we like about this place, and if they can change so quickly without our input then many of us might reconsider how much time we spend here. We don't own the place and don't get to make the decisions regarding funding. But we provide the content that makes the site relevant and many of us figure that if our opinions weren't important enough to be taken into consideration, then maybe our time was better spent elsewhere.

But,, now we're all one big happy family again!

Finally, Nick "no longer participates in the forums", but he still a part of the MacNN organization? Not that I have anything against him, but I assumed that when his account got "demoted" (with no Administrator title) that meant he was no longer associated with the site as a whole....

[gorgonzola]

Regarding mods deleting posts for no reason:

Has this been happening on a wider scale, or are you simply referring to a post deleted by Scott earlier in this thread? If so, I didn't see what happened, but will check into what the reason was. Regardless, please consider occurrences prior to my post in the thread to be past history. There have been heated actions and posts on both sides, and we're trying to start fresh. (Other than this one issue, there were a few instances where Nick deleted a few posts, I think, but that's no longer relevant for reasons I gave before.)

Regarding Nick's status:

He still works at MacNN, but is no longer at all involved in the forums.

---

Addressing this:

I think a lot of it (and I was swept up in it the emotional response myself, I'm sorry to say) was due to the fact that since it was such a major change (both in philosophy as well as site operation) and happened with so little warning, a lot of us started to question what else about the site might change without advance warning. It's not necessarily change that was the problem (although I don't think anyone here thought this particular change was a good idea), it was the lack of warning and discussion.

All of us have things we like about this place, and if they can change so quickly without our input then many of us might reconsider how much time we spend here. We don't own the place and don't get to make the decisions regarding funding. But we provide the content that makes the site relevant and many of us figure that if our opinions weren't important enough to be taken into consideration, then maybe our time was better spent elsewhere.

I totally understand this sentiment. All I'll say is that we're obviously going to try to handle these things better in the future. We did communicate these kinds of things religiously in the past, but there have been a few screwups in the last six months.

As I said above, we understand the importance of users to forums and love the fact that we can communicate with users about these things directly. Responding to feedback is tiring, but all things considered, it's a huge boon to have an active user base that will help us fix mistakes and improve the forums.

Finally, remember that even if something gets changed without warning, it can always be changed back.

---

Any more?

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by gorgonzola

I totally understand this sentiment. All I'll say is that we're obviously going to try to handle these things better in the future. We did communicate these kinds of things religiously in the past, but there have been a few screwups in the last six months.

As I said above, we understand the importance of users to forums and love the fact that we can communicate with users about these things directly. Responding to feedback is tiring, but all things considered, it's a huge boon to have an active user base that will help us fix mistakes and improve the forums.

Finally, remember that even if something gets changed without warning, it can always be changed back.

Awesome!

[Gamoe]

Thanks for the honest feedback, gorgonzola.