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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Applications > Is Tiger as flexible as XP Pro

Is Tiger as flexible as XP Pro
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garyton
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Sep 23, 2006, 09:16 PM
 
I just came back from the Apple store where my wife and I talked with someone and played with a Mac Pro for several hours.
I have been researching hardware for her new desktop system where she does a lot of video rendering and web design and Photoshop.
She is a veteran Windows user and is comfortable with the app's she uses (Pinnacle Studio DVD/Macromedia Dreamweaver/Flash/ Photoshop/Canon Browser/ACDC/Microsoft Office.
I think she likes the stability of the Mac OS and the lack of viruses when on the internet, but feels that maybe she will not have the flexibility of what she does with her programs if she switches to the Mac OS. She looked at iPhoto and felt it was very restrictive in terms of editing photos and saving and deleting edited copies.
She is not sure what video softeware she would have to switch to. She was told iMovie is very easy but limited, and that Final Cut Express is a simplified version of Final Cut Pro. She was also told that FCP is very high powered and maybe too much program to relaern and that Motion which is part of the Final Cut Studio is very high powered and complicated.
How would these compare to her programs she is using?
I only know that the hardware design of the new Mac Pro is pretty ideal for what she does as compared to me having to build her a dual core exteme chip pc with graphics cards and less ram than what the Mac Pro has.
Will she have to learn all new App's to do what she does now and do you think in the end she will be happy she changed from a PC and what App's would you guys recommend she use that will be similar to hers.
I bought her the book Tiger OS "The missing manual" and the recent magazined iCreate to get some insight into the programs.
Unfortunately, you can't do too much on a a demo Power Mac in the store with nothing on them
Thanks
Gary
     
garyton  (op)
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Sep 23, 2006, 09:21 PM
 
Sorry, I really meant to ask about using the Mac OS as opposed to Windows but got carried away with the applications she was referring to. I guess I am looking for answers to both the OS and the app's she uses. To her, she felt that by switching to the Mac OS she would be very limited in her program options for her creative endeavors.
Thanks
Gary
     
Macola
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Sep 23, 2006, 10:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by garyton
To her, she felt that by switching to the Mac OS she would be very limited in her program options for her creative endeavors.
I would have said exactly the opposite. Most creative professionals I know use Macs.
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mitchell_pgh
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Sep 23, 2006, 10:24 PM
 
I'm not sure I understand the question. Obviously OS X is VERY flexible... and it's especially so when dealing with the creative fields.

iMovie are designed for amateur video enthusiasts. It has more than enough power to do basic home videos, but beyond that, yes... it is limited. That being said, there are a number of higher end options as you said. There is Final Cut Express and Final Cut Pro. Both are VERY popular.

iPhoto is also designed for home use. If you need a higher end application, they are out there. Adobe offers a few programs and Apple offers a few options. I think she would find them to be much more agreeable.

My final note... yes, there are fewer applications for OS X as compared to Windows... but every design application of any importance is on our platform. Every serious photographer and graphic designer I know uses a Mac.

NOTE: Please list the applications she uses and what she would like to do with her computer.
     
garyton  (op)
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Sep 23, 2006, 10:50 PM
 
I think the biggest hurdle for her is that she is used Windows XP Pro. When she has a program file problem she will stay up all night if necessary and figure it out. If she can not, she will contact some friends and ask advice and almost always solves the problem.
I think the file management is very different from what she is used to with Windows, especially with regards to digital photos. She is used to downloading images into folders and then editing and saving as in another folder and/or copying images. iPhoto she did not seem to like much.
With her Video work, she downloads digital video and then cuts and splices/overlays audio, slow motion stuff, text, and then renders and burns the videos. Now she has an iPod also and she has put tons of her existing mp3 music into my Dell notebook which she uses now for her iPod library. For Video she now uses Pinnacle Studio DVD. I think she might have felt iMovie was not powerful enough, but possibly Final Cut Pro may be too complicated. She is used to Dreamweaver and Flash for her web creation. I think she also used some other Adobe programs also sometimes.
I am aware that most professional graphic arts people use Macs. She does this for herself for fun and I guess I am wondering if I am correct in encouraging her to make the switch from her PC to a Mac.
I don't know she can be sure if it the correct move for her since changing and learning new applications take time and she will not know if it was right for her until after it is all said and done. Then she will either love it or hate it and never let me hear the end of it.
Any more imput?
Is she just not familiar enough with Mac OS and when in a short time she will love it after she learns it?
Thanks
gary
     
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Sep 23, 2006, 11:11 PM
 
I don't like iPhoto either, but you can just use folders in the Finder if you want folders. Photoshop still works the same.

And yeah, a lot of people don't like Macs very much just because it's not what they're used to. It's a fair complaint (learning new things is frustrating even when it's fairly easy), but it's not really a dealbreaker.

I'm not familiar with Pinnacle Studio DVD or ACDC, so I'm not sure enough of what they do to say what's the closest equivalent. Probably Final Cut Express. Other than those two, I think they all are all Mac apps anyway.
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badsey
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Sep 23, 2006, 11:14 PM
 
Feel safe in getting the Mac and running Windows XP on it if you must. Boot Camp will give you the option of running XP Pro (sp2) and Parallels will run Windows (or anything else) as a virtual machine. The OS will flip like a cube (max out the ram for this) in Parallels in a second.

She is probably still gonna want to run Windows since that is what she is used to and has the experience with those programs. With VM-ing Windows you don't need to worry about Windows viruses either. I would wait on this purchase and find someone that is running Windows on their Mac and see what you think.

With Windows Vista (try Windows Vista RC1 -free) most of these older programs will need to be updated anyway. That iCreate is a good Mag = lots/lots/lots of good useful tips in there.

=The Mac Pro or any Intel Mac will run Windows fast since it is a x86 computer. Max that ram out if possible.
     
garyton  (op)
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Sep 23, 2006, 11:57 PM
 
When in the store I mentioned that I was planning on putting 8Gb (4-2GB modules) so then 4 would be open for the future if ever needed. The Apple person told me the most I would need for her was 4GB and any more than that would not even make a difference.
Is he correct? What if she ends up using Final Cut Pro and Motion?
I was also planning on using the ATI 1900 XTX card for her.
The system really is nice with the 30 inch screen.
Does anyone see any difference between ordering from an Apple store versus online?
Do I not pay sales tax if ordered online?
It seems the extra two years apple warranty is worth it since if you do not buy it you only get one free telephone support call. Any after that are $50.00. If you buy two extra years of warranty for $250.00 you get three years with as many phone calls as you want. He said the average wait time is maybe 10 minutes. I figure she may be needing this.
They also offered a program called Pro Care to her. For $100 a year she can schedule one hour a week of one on one tutorial with a person in the store. They have people proficient with everything from Tiger OS to FInal Cut Pro and Motion.
What do you think?
     
zerostar
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Sep 24, 2006, 12:18 AM
 
I told you some of this in the other thread, ill say it again, 4GB is plenty FOR WHAT SHE NEEDS, I have 4GB on my home machine and I run photoshop, final cut pro, motion and after effects all at the same time. And im working on HD video here...

Also, from the sound of what she does I would get her a 20" or 24" iMac with 3GB Ram and 500GB drive, then just some FW800 external drives. The iMac is very well capable for all she does. I think a Mac Pro is overkill, but thats just me.

I will stress another point again... It doesn't sound like she WANTS to switch and if she doesn't then it will be an uphill battle and probably won't work out. If I was you I would get myself an iMac or something and get familiar with it myself, Mac OS X is VERY flexible and once you get used to it you will wonder why XP does so many dumb things.

iPhoto is made to be simple, it is made to plug in your camera and import your photos, you can do editing, print them, share them, etc. if she needs more power than that you can take them into photoshop and do what you want. Personally I hated iPhoto because of how it worked, now I manage 4000+ photos in there and love its easy of use and the thing just works, I don't need to sort folders or crap like that, new album and im done.

If you do decide to go with a Mac I would get the procare from the sound of things...
     
mitchell_pgh
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Sep 24, 2006, 12:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by garyton
I think the biggest hurdle for her is that she is used Windows XP Pro. When she has a program file problem she will stay up all night if necessary and figure it out. If she can not, she will contact some friends and ask advice and almost always solves the problem.
I'm not saying she won't have problems with the Mac, but many VERY heavy graphic and video people use Macs.

I have problems from time to time with my system and I always find help either on this forum or via Google. Worst case, ask the Apple store people.

Originally Posted by garyton
I think the file management is very different from what she is used to with Windows, especially with regards to digital photos. She is used to downloading images into folders and then editing and saving as in another folder and/or copying images. iPhoto she did not seem to like much.
iPhoto really isn't designed to be a photo editing application. Yes, it can edit images, but it's really an image organizer application with some basic editing features tacked on. I'm not saying iPhoto isn't a good application, just that I think your wife may be looking for something more.

Also, you can always drag an image from iTunes, place it in a folder and edit to your heart's content in another application. One nice feature of iTunes is that it always keeps a copy of the original file regardless of what you do to the image. Also, there are always other applications (Adobe Elements, Adobe Lightroom [in beta], Aperture, etc. etc.)

Originally Posted by garyton
With her Video work, she downloads digital video and then cuts and splices/overlays audio, slow motion stuff, text, and then renders and burns the videos. Now she has an iPod also and she has put tons of her existing mp3 music into my Dell notebook which she uses now for her iPod library. For Video she now uses Pinnacle Studio DVD. I think she might have felt iMovie was not powerful enough, but possibly Final Cut Pro may be too complicated.
I hear that Pinnacle Studio DVD has a number of similarities to iMovie and iDVD... some argue that you can do everything in iMovie that you can in Pinnacle Studio DVD... but others suggest that you need to bump to something like Final Cut Express to dwarf all of Pinnacle's capabilities.

I would be surprised if she used more that what iMovie has to offer, but if she needs more features, she could always get Final Cut Express (which is a subset of Final Cut Pro.).

Originally Posted by garyton
She is used to Dreamweaver and Flash for her web creation. I think she also used some other Adobe programs also sometimes.
All of which are on the mac.

Originally Posted by garyton
I am aware that most professional graphic arts people use Macs. She does this for herself for fun and I guess I am wondering if I am correct in encouraging her to make the switch from her PC to a Mac.
I would make the suggestion, but wouldn't force it. That being said, I don't know how people do video editing on the PC. I was forced to use a PC for a college project and it was a nightmare. I ended up using iMovie and it turned out so much better than the rest of the class.

Also, the Mac is really built from the ground up with AV in mind.

Originally Posted by garyton
I don't know she can be sure if it the correct move for her since changing and learning new applications take time and she will not know if it was right for her until after it is all said and done. Then she will either love it or hate it and never let me hear the end of it.
Any more imput?
Buy the Mac. If you hate it, just install Windows.

If she doesn't want a Mac, do not get her a Mac. You will never hear the end of it. That being said, with dual booting of the Mac, your really can't go wrong.

Originally Posted by garyton
Is she just not familiar enough with Mac OS and when in a short time she will love it after she learns it?
Thanks
gary
I don't want to speak for her, but I think after the initial learning curve, she will fall in love with the Mac... and will wonder how she ever designed anything on the PC.
     
garyton  (op)
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Sep 24, 2006, 12:50 AM
 
Thanks Zerostar.
I understand you now. I think she is hesitant but may be willing to change. I think she just needs to hear it from enough people or read it in enough places and then she won't have any reservations.
     
mitchell_pgh
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Sep 24, 2006, 12:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by garyton
When in the store I mentioned that I was planning on putting 8Gb (4-2GB modules) so then 4 would be open for the future if ever needed. The Apple person told me the most I would need for her was 4GB and any more than that would not even make a difference.
Is he correct? What if she ends up using Final Cut Pro and Motion?
I would be very surprised if she ever used the full 4GB. I would simply start out with 4GB, and if she starts complaining, bump it to 6 or 8.


Originally Posted by garyton
I was also planning on using the ATI 1900 XTX card for her.
The system really is nice with the 30 inch screen.
Does anyone see any difference between ordering from an Apple store versus online?
Do I not pay sales tax if ordered online?
You still pay sales tax if you buy from Apple online. There is no difference between buying at the store vs. buying from apple.com (when it's a larger purchase they have free shipping).

Originally Posted by garyton
It seems the extra two years apple warranty is worth it since if you do not buy it you only get one free telephone support call. Any after that are $50.00. If you buy two extra years of warranty for $250.00 you get three years with as many phone calls as you want. He said the average wait time is maybe 10 minutes. I figure she may be needing this.
They also offered a program called Pro Care to her. For $100 a year she can schedule one hour a week of one on one tutorial with a person in the store. They have people proficient with everything from Tiger OS to FInal Cut Pro and Motion.
What do you think?
Warranties in general are a personal issue. I ALWAYS buy the warranty with portables, but mix it up with desktop systems. My opinion (and again, this is just an opinion) if it's going to break, it's going to do so in the first couple of months with a desktop. That being said, if it is your first Mac, I would get it.

It is worth it if she has questions.

P.S. They also offer free classes at the Apple store. You can ask questions while attending the sessions.
     
garyton  (op)
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Sep 24, 2006, 01:01 AM
 
Thanks again for all the input.
I think I have done my part andput together as much info as I can for her to consider. Now it is up to her to decide.
     
mitchell_pgh
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Sep 24, 2006, 01:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by garyton
Thanks Zerostar.
I understand you now. I think she is hesitant but may be willing to change. I think she just needs to hear it from enough people or read it in enough places and then she won't have any reservations.
One think to remember, if she hates it, you can always run Windows.

Also, iLife (which consists of iMovie, iDVD, iPhoto, Garage Band and iWeb) is free when you purchase a new system and only $79 yearly for all the cool updates. I primarily use it for basic photo storage and Photoshop for real work, but some of the applications do come in handy and they just keep getting better.
     
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Sep 24, 2006, 11:33 AM
 
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Aperture or Lightroom for professional photo manipulation and organization.

I suggest you visit the Apple website and take a good look at Final Cut Express/Pro, DVD Pro, and Aperture. These are probably overkill for what your wifes needs but it will give you an indication of what you can jump to if the iLife Apps aren't what you want.

the other nice thing with the iLife Apps is you can add your own music through your iTunes catalog, create your own music with Garageband, and publish a decent web site using iWeb.

And I will reiterate what others have said, if she doesn't want to switch or is unwilling to give it 30 days to learn the OSX ways, don't buy it. Remember the secret ingredient to a lasting, happy marriage is learning to say "Yes, Dear".
     
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Sep 24, 2006, 12:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by garyton
She looked at iPhoto and felt it was very restrictive in terms of editing photos and saving and deleting edited copies.
Alas, ACDSee has not had a Mac version in a long time (though it used to). However, there are other programs, including Apple's Aperture. Adobe also makes a program along similar lines.
She is not sure what video softeware she would have to switch to. She was told iMovie is very easy but limited, and that Final Cut Express is a simplified version of Final Cut Pro. She was also told that FCP is very high powered and maybe too much program to relaern and that Motion which is part of the Final Cut Studio is very high powered and complicated.

How would these compare to her programs she is using?
I suspect that in this, she was subjected to the unfortunate patronizing attitude towards women that is prevalent in many technology-oriented stores: sadly, most Apple Stores are no different.

Honestly, this depends on what exactly she does. While it's true that Adobe has abandoned Premiere for the Mac (many suspect that this was done out of pure spite for Apple releasing FCP, since the sales figures at the time were more than enough to justify keeping it going), FCP or FCE isn't that tough to learn. Ultimately, if she was using Premiere before, FCE is probably the best fit unless she feels she's ready to take another step up (FCE competes with Premiere; FCP is more in the realm of competing with AVID).
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badsey
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Sep 24, 2006, 12:06 PM
 
If this is gonna turn into a professional graphics/video system by all means get the Mac Pro since the iMac will severely limit your flexibility. Many of the professional graphic and video programs are still not out in Mac/Intel (Universal) format = they are still running in Rosetta (emulation) on Intel/Macs and slow (reason why many professionals have not switched from PowerPC yet. You also need to think about portability (Notebooks). Mac/Intel notebooks are very good (even the cheap ones).

Buy enough memory that is workable and cheapest for you now and you will have the expansion needed (mac Pro) for extra speed and power later. Memory only gets cheaper with time and the Apple store memory is expensive (at least 2x retail like NewEgg, get Crucial memory for this more professional system also = don't mess around with bargain brands) Check the feedback on these other brands and make sure the memory is good. A 1GB iMac is very slow compared to a 2GB iMac or even a 1.5GB iMac, same for the notebooks = max out that memory right away.

Nothing wrong with buying a new cheaper Mac/Intel notebook, iMac just to try it out and see if you like it. Maybe you will lose a few hundred if you sell it. Something new to try out and test. Even a Mac/Intel Mini or a refurbished Intel Mac = these are good/fast computers and will surprise you. I would buy new though since these new models just came out.

Windows XP OS is very slow compared to OSX. Once you learn a new Mac grpahics/video program (wait for the Universal app to come out and not a Rosetta emulation), it will be hard going back to Win XP.
     
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Sep 24, 2006, 12:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Macola
I would have said exactly the opposite. Most creative professionals I know use Macs.
I'm sure this was true in 1995, but do you have any evidence that this is still true today? Note the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
     
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Sep 24, 2006, 12:50 PM
 
My last word on the subject:

I would burn a few images to a CD and take it to the Apple store. They actually encourage people to try out the systems. From what you have said, I think she would be fine with iTunes and iPhoto. I think she might also really like iDVD. I've wowed few people with iDVD, and I know nothing about creating DVDs.
     
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Sep 24, 2006, 01:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
I'm sure this was true in 1995, but do you have any evidence that this is still true today? Note the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
He said most of the creative professionals "he knows" use Macs, which may well be true. It's an anecdotal statement, but it's probably true.

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mitchell_pgh
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Sep 24, 2006, 01:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
I'm sure this was true in 1995, but do you have any evidence that this is still true today? Note the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
Prove that this isn't the case... as there aren't many such statistics out there.

I still see this as being very true. The higher you go, the More Macs you see. I haven't seen a professional photographer that hasn't had a Mac (I regularly work with various photographers).

My printer is seeing more Windows files, but he also pointed out that they are usually from amateur designers. He notes that ALL the high end design comes from Mac systems. He actually HATES that InDesign is so reasonably priced these days... he says that too many people that don't know what they are doing are now "professionals."
     
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Sep 24, 2006, 05:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
I'm sure this was true in 1995, but do you have any evidence that this is still true today? Note the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
Well, I count myself as a creative professional (I've been running my own business for the last 6 years). I hang out with, work with, and belong to organizations for creatives (designers, illustrators, video editors, etc.) Of these folks, I know one guy who works on a PC, the rest are all Mac users.

It's certainly true that, overall, there's a higher percentage of creatives using PCs than there was 10 years ago. Nonetheless, in my limited sample, the Mac is still very dominant.
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Sep 24, 2006, 08:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
I'm sure this was true in 1995, but do you have any evidence that this is still true today? Note the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
Well, for audio at least, there is simply no comparison.

And while I do know three studios that still work on Windows, two have added Macs to their arsenal, and are floored with how much simpler they handle audio and MIDI stuff.
     
garyton  (op)
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Sep 24, 2006, 09:05 PM
 
My wife has not said much but when I explained about the ease of using her iTunes library with other apps, she seemed to be aware of that.
I think she eventually will say yes. When she does, I plan to buy the system from a nearby Apple store rather than online. I would rather deal with a store and people in case I have some initial prblems with it.
I plan to get her the Mac Pro with the 3.0 GHZ chips, 4 GB ram, 1-500 hard drive,(I hope it is a seagate), 2 burners, ATI 1900 XTX card, Bluetooth and Airport, 30" screen, speakers I am looking for some wireless ones. I plan to add three more drives on our own. I can add more memory in the future if she ever needs it. I also plan to buy the Pro care for $100 for the year whcih buys her 52 hours of one on one tutorials with someone there, and also gets you to the head of the line at the genius bar. I can't make it any easier for her to make the switch than all of this.
They offer Final Cut Express for $300. but it does not have motion. I plan to ask them if they have a special deal on Final Cut Stodio which would be FCP and Motion.
I get my Dell notebook back then
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Sep 24, 2006, 09:31 PM
 
Honestly I don't think your wife would be satisfied by iLife is those are the apps she is using Windows side. She'd want to look at the Pro Apple apps. Aperture, Final Cut Studio, along with Studio MX and Adobe Suite for Mac.
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garyton  (op)
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Sep 24, 2006, 10:38 PM
 
Thanks again for the input.
I know the basic iLife stuff will not do what she needs. I am encouraging her to look at all the other programs out there such as Final Cut Studio.Motion, and others to see what she is willing to switch to.
     
badsey
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Sep 25, 2006, 08:10 AM
 
http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitle...bs%5Flightroom

Adobe LightRoom is free for Mac and Win right now. Download it and try it out.

Aperture is the Apple equivalent. These Apps are what the professional photo editors use.

Start using some of these Pro type programs and start charging for your services. Take classes at a local school etc. Learning Digital Video is the thing to study right now = everyone is converting to HD video production.

Aperture got the jump on Adobe (and surprised the industry) and now Adobe is trying to catch up with a free (for now beta) product. Once people use Aperture (and learn the productive features) they don't go back -it saves these Photo pros mega time. I would buy a new LCD 20"+ for using Aperature -These are getting cheap now ~$300+ at the big retail stores. Get the 16x9 ones that are new within the last few months = huge difference between the new LCDs and the old square ones.

if the above link does not work:
Adobe Labs - Adobe Photoshop Lightroom
( Last edited by badsey; Sep 25, 2006 at 12:07 PM. )
     
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Sep 25, 2006, 10:29 AM
 
Have your wife check out some of the stories at http://www.apple.com/pro/
     
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Sep 25, 2006, 01:07 PM
 
Also check out iView Media Pro for photo organizing.
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Sep 25, 2006, 02:54 PM
 
Note also that the new version of Aperture, which will be available this week, now has full integration into the iLife and iWork suites.

tooki
     
tooki
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Sep 25, 2006, 02:56 PM
 
I moved this thread to Applications, since it's not actually about the OS at all, but rather about application choices.

tooki
     
mduell
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Sep 25, 2006, 08:32 PM
 
I'd strongly encourage you to get the 2.66 and extra RAM (or cash in your pocket). $800 for a 333Mhz upgrade is a poor deal unless you're really CPU bound and time is money.
     
el chupacabra
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Sep 26, 2006, 05:05 PM
 
I didn't think I saw these mentioned; check them out for video editing stuff.

Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe - Adobe Premiere Elements
Adobe - Video and audio

..almost forgot
cleaner is a cool little app for video encoding Autodesk - Autodesk Cleaner - Product Information

personally my window box works for me, but when I use it my fists seem strangly drawn to the direction of bill gates' face.
( Last edited by el chupacabra; Sep 26, 2006 at 05:14 PM. )
You arent special. You dont have value just because you were born. You are a net drain on the planet. Respect must be earned & your value must be proven. Endangered species are special, & their survival should take priority over your comfort.
     
icibaqu
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Sep 27, 2006, 11:50 AM
 
some good suggestions in this thread. i would also take a look at Aperture -- especially given 1.5's ability to control where/how your stuff is saved (given her comfort with a particular method of storage). she does sound more a candidate for some of the professional applications.

overall though, if her application needs are met, then she will feel comfortable enough to get to know the OS quickly. good luck.
     
- - e r i k - -
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Sep 27, 2006, 08:52 PM
 
For her needs (and it doesn't sound like you are on too much of a budget) go for the MacPro with the X1900XT and 4GB RAM. Get Aperture and Final Cut Express. If she's into moving graphics at all and likes to experiment, grab Final Cut Studio with Motion. Motion is an excellent piece of software (when it works), it's real easy to get crazy, innovative and professional results (I use it all the time for television commercials). And with the X1900XT it's smooth as butter.

You'll need the Mac Pro and heaps of RAM right now if you are doing any work with Adobe as it's run under emulation in Rosetta. On a Mac Pro it's speed is about equivalent to a 2Ghz G5 which is more than adequate. But you'll need heaps of RAM. I have the 2.66 Mac Pro with 2GB of RAM and I am constantly bumping my head against the roof (but then again I run the CS suite and Final Cut Studio suite simultaneously with lots of video and effects).

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