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Paco500 · Jun 16, 2009, 05:34 AM

Is there anyone out there that has knowledge of UK property law- specifically in regards to private residential lettings? Alternatively, anyone with knowledge of UK contract law would also be helpful.

We're about to do battle with former landlords over return of deposit and I need some advice.

Thanks.

Doofy · Jun 16, 2009, 06:29 AM

Fire away.

Paco500 · Jun 16, 2009, 07:12 AM

We gave 2 months notice at our old place per our letting agreement, which gave us a move out date of 10th June. Shortly thereafter, the letting agent called and asked, as a favor to the owners, if there was anyway we would be able to move out sooner as they had new tenants lined up but needed to move in before the end of May. After some looking and negotiation with new landlord, we were able to move out on 10th May. The letting agent agreed to the date and thanked us profusely.

About a week after we moved out, we got an email from the owners letting us know they would be withholding the rent due from 11th May to 21st May (the day before the new tenants moved in) from our deposit.

Our position is that the move out date of 10th May was agreed by the letting agent, who is listed in our contract as the owners agent for our letting, and there was no mention of responsibilities for rents beyond that date. Additionally, the day following our departure, the owner had workpeople in the house making long-overdue repairs without giving us 24 hours notice as required in our contract.

It seems to me the owners either accepted our move out date as negotiated by their agent by sending in the workpeople unannounced or they were in violation of our contract.

I'm having trouble finding any specifics in the various housing acts that apply to my case or any mention of penalties should a landlord violate the terms of the letting agreement. I've been told by the CAB and my company's free legal assistance service that I should have a pretty cut-and-dried case should I go to arbitration/court, but neither were able to offer specifics and quite frankly I don't want the hassle of further legal action if I can avoid it.

So any thoughts or is more detail required?

Paco500 · Jun 16, 2009, 07:14 AM

I should add, the amount of money involved is not enough to make hiring a real attorney worthwhile, but it is enough that I want it back.

Phileas · Jun 16, 2009, 07:27 AM

This is probably not very helpful, but always get these kinds of things agreed in writing.

moonmonkey · Jun 16, 2009, 07:30 AM

Did you ask them for it back explaining your point of view?

Paco500 · Jun 16, 2009, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by moonmonkey

Did you ask them for it back explaining your point of view?

Yes, we have traded several emails on the subject and the letting agent has done their best to intervene on our behalf (they support us 100% on this) but the owner is being intractable.

Originally Posted by Phileas

This is probably not very helpful, but always get these kinds of things agreed in writing.

If only...

moonmonkey · Jun 16, 2009, 07:52 AM

A-holes.
I would get a solicitor to write nasty letters.

Doofy · Jun 16, 2009, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Paco500

We gave 2 months notice at our old place per our letting agreement, which gave us a move out date of 10th June. Shortly thereafter, the letting agent called and asked, as a favor to the owners, if there was anyway we would be able to move out sooner as they had new tenants lined up but needed to move in before the end of May. After some looking and negotiation with new landlord, we were able to move out on 10th May. The letting agent agreed to the date and thanked us profusely.

About a week after we moved out, we got an email from the owners letting us know they would be withholding the rent due from 11th May to 21st May (the day before the new tenants moved in) from our deposit.

Our position is that the move out date of 10th May was agreed by the letting agent, who is listed in our contract as the owners agent for our letting, and there was no mention of responsibilities for rents beyond that date. Additionally, the day following our departure, the owner had workpeople in the house making long-overdue repairs without giving us 24 hours notice as required in our contract.

It seems to me the owners either accepted our move out date as negotiated by their agent by sending in the workpeople unannounced or they were in violation of our contract.

I'm having trouble finding any specifics in the various housing acts that apply to my case or any mention of penalties should a landlord violate the terms of the letting agreement. I've been told by the CAB and my company's free legal assistance service that I should have a pretty cut-and-dried case should I go to arbitration/court, but neither were able to offer specifics and quite frankly I don't want the hassle of further legal action if I can avoid it.

So any thoughts or is more detail required?

That is pretty cut and dried.

I would have thought that a nice, polite letter to the letting agent explaining that you want your money back or you will be forced to pursue the matter further would do the trick. Don't bother with the owner - it's the letting agents you need to get the cash out of, since they're the ones you agreed the early move-out with. The words "lawyer", "Watchdog" and "ombudsman" usually work wonders for things like these.

So... ...to the agent...
Letter 1: Explain situation. Request money back.
Letter 2: Demand money back or will be forced to take further action.
Letter 3: Final offer for them to give money back, three magic words mentioned.

Doofy · Jun 16, 2009, 08:23 AM

Oh, and since I presume that your contract is with the agent, it's those guys you need to pursue.

Phileas · Jun 16, 2009, 09:27 AM

Doofy, it would be extremely unusual for the contract to be with the letting agent. An agent is just that, an agent for the landlord, not a landlord himself. For your suggestion to work the agent would have to rent the property, then sublet it. That's not going to happen.

Letting agents typically take a 2.5-5% fee off the rent and in return manage the property for the landlord. Any contracts you may or may not have as a tenant do not involve them.

The buck stops with the landlord, there is little the agent can do.

Andrew Stephens · Jun 16, 2009, 09:37 AM

The trouble is, when people are A-holes they are A-holes and issues of decent behaviour tend to have little effect. You know it's right, they know it's right but without the force of law, asking nicely tends not to cut it. In order to negotiate, both parties need to be minded to negotiate.

As important as having a case in law is the belief in the other party of your intention to follow through. Hence it never pays to try to be too nice or reasonable (past an initial point). Keep the letters short, formal and strongly worded.

Hopefully things won't get as far but small claims you can handle yourself and a letter including the court documents along with a statement saying they will be submitted by you on a certain date with no further communication normally does the final trick.

OreoCookie · Jun 16, 2009, 09:51 AM

Well, I'd tell your land lord that if he insists on the changed date, he should expect you to be in the apartment until the 21st (the day before the new tentants move in). Including furniture. That should give you some leverage. They're just trying to get the money for the extra 10 days.

Paco500 · Jun 16, 2009, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Well, I'd tell your land lord that if he insists on the changed date, he should expect you to be in the apartment until the 21st (the day before the new tentants move in). Including furniture. That should give you some leverage. They're just trying to get the money for the extra 10 days.

Unfortunately, this is all in the past- I've already moved.

OreoCookie · Jun 16, 2009, 12:52 PM

Then, there is not much you can do if you don't want to enter a legal battle. I've had to make a decision like that as well and I decided it's not worth it. C'est la vie.

Andy8 · Jun 16, 2009, 07:05 PM

Get the keys back of your old apartment, if your paying rent for it, then you are entitled to have possession of it until the day your rent is paid up until. Regardless you are living there or not.

Nivag · Jun 19, 2009, 04:04 AM

Give these people a call - Citizens Advice website - they helped my sister out when she had landlord problems.