[moodymonster]

HINDUS in Europe are joining forces to oppose German calls for a law across the European Union banning the display of Nazi symbols, saying the swastika symbolises peace and not hate.
...
Germany plans to use its presidency of the EU to launch an initiative which could lead to common laws across the bloc making it a crime to deny genocide and display Nazi symbols.
...
"In Sanskrit it means May Goodness Prevail. Just because Hitler misused the symbol, abused it and used it to propagate a reign of terror and racism and discrimination, it does not mean that its peaceful use should be banned."

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...6-1702,00.html

I'm with the Hindus on this one, just because someone else picks up on their ancient symbol and perverts it, doesn't mean that the symbol should be banned. It should instead be picked up and reused in its original incarnation to wipe out the perversion.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by moodymonster 

Hindus oppose call for swastika ban | | The Australian

""In Sanskrit it means May Goodness Prevail."

I think Hitler has seen himself and his party and his people as the goodness that should prevail, and he saw the jews, the minors and the weak, lame, homosexuals... as degenerative forces that would prevent the goodness to prevail.

Taliesin

[RIRedinPA]

Originally Posted by Taliesin 

I think Hitler has seen himself and his party and his people as the goodness that should prevail, and he saw the jews, the minors and the weak, lame, homosexuals... as degenerative forces that would prevent the goodness to prevail.

Taliesin

I wonder if there's a compromise, where you could ban the use in certain contexts such as in relation to any political groups or political symbolism but retain it for use in Hindu religious ceremonies and establishments.

[OreoCookie]

I'm with the Hindus (and Buddhists) on that one: you shouldn't force others to see symbols in the same context we (= Westerners) see them.

[Dakar²]

With the hindus here.

[OreoCookie]

The purpose of these laws is to make clear that racism isn't tolerated … and since these symbols (in another cultural context) have no negative connotation, why should we judge them on the same basis?

[badidea]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

...why should we judge them on the same basis?

It would be news to me that we do!
I never heard of any Hindu arrest in Germany!

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by badidea 

It would be news to me that we do!
I never heard of any Hindu arrest in Germany!

No, it's a matter of principle. The letter of the law should be coherent with its spirit.

[Kerrigan]

Imagine if an Islamic symbol were to be banned in connection to the Nazis.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

Imagine if an Islamic symbol were to be banned in connection to the Nazis.

[Kerrigan]

Uh oh, I was worried you'd show up

[IceBreaker]

the sad thing is the more they try to ban the symbol the more powerful they make it to those who seek to use it for its horrid past.

[dcmacdaddy]

Isn't the Hindu swastika turned 90 degrees from the NAZI version of it?
I know the symbol is used in Native American cultures but there too I think it is backwards.

Anyway, it would seem to me a swastika on a Hindu item would not look like a NAZI swastika. It's not like the Hindus are taking the NAZI flag and saying we want to use this whole thing, they just want to use part of it. I say let them use it with some caution but not ban it outright.

[Macrobat]

Don't laugh too hard, Sayf Allah (or did you forget about The Mufi of Jerusalem's Arab Legion of the SS?):

[Kerrigan]

Why are there so many swastikas in bathrooms? Everywhere I go: Europe, N. America, S. America, I always see swastikas etched or drawn in bathrooms.

[Macrobat]

Mostly teen (or other) rebellion. Being one of the symbols of the Nazi Party, it is nearly universally reviled in the Western world, so what better to scrawl when one wishes to (conveniently anonymously) express one's contempt for the world?

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by IceBreaker 

the sad thing is the more they try to ban the symbol the more powerful they make it to those who seek to use it for its horrid past.

You're right. Germans should just casually wear swastikas to make the symbol less powerful.

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

Isn't the Hindu swastika turned 90 degrees from the NAZI version of it?

How would you tell the difference?

[OldManMac]

One would think that the Germans have learned by now that you can't legislate feelings and beliefs, no matter how repulsive they are, which is what this is an attempt to do. Just because you ban a certain symbol, that doesn't mean you can ban people's feelings towards it.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

Isn't the Hindu swastika turned 90 degrees from the NAZI version of it?
I know the symbol is used in Native American cultures but there too I think it is backwards.

That's often claimed, but it's not true.

I have an antique Japanese chest, and it's got clockwise swastikas all over it.

[Atomic Rooster]

I don't think the Nazis ever called it a Swastika. I think they called it 'crooked cross' in German.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika%2C_Ontario

[khufuu]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

Why are there so many swastikas in bathrooms? Everywhere I go: Europe, N. America, S. America, I always see swastikas etched or drawn in bathrooms.

Because its easy to scratch into a painted surface with a knife or a key.

[Sayf-Allah]

Kerrigan, see what you did now? You will have destroyed a perfectly fine thread!

Originally Posted by Macrobat 

Don't laugh too hard, Sayf Allah (or did you forget about The Mufi of Jerusalem's Arab Legion of the SS?):

....snipped image.....

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

I don't think the Nazis ever called it a Swastika. I think they called it 'crooked cross' in German.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika%2C_Ontario

There is no German word that is derived from swastika.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

I don't think the Nazis ever called it a Swastika. I think they called it 'crooked cross' in German.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika%2C_Ontario

The German word for swastika, "Hakenkreuz", means "hooked cross".

[badidea]

Originally Posted by analogika 

That's often claimed, but it's not true.

I have an antique Japanese chest, and it's got clockwise swastikas all over it.

Both the left and right turning versions are religious symbols!
The left turning version means night, bad luck and death in Hinduism!

edit: I just realized that the english and german version of the wiki article are different in this regard!
The english version is on your side!

Originally Posted by KarlG 

One would think that the Germans have learned by now...

Now? The symbol is banned since 60 years (for obvious reasons)!


And why all this hype btw???
It's only banned in a political context! A religious use is not forbidden and therefore no Hindu should get into any trouble!

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by badidea 

And why all this hype btw???
It's only banned in a political context! A religious use is not forbidden and therefore no Hindu should get into any trouble!

But what if there's a Hindu political party that wants to use it?










ps. someone had to say it.

[moodymonster]

the hype is that because Germany wants to use it's presidency of the EU to introduce the ban EU wide.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

But what if there's a Hindu political party that wants to use it?

Then they're ****ed!!!

Originally Posted by moodymonster 

the hype is that because Germany wants to use it's presidency of the EU to introduce the ban EU wide.

Yes but if it's the same law as already in Germany (and Austria and France) then there won't be any problem for the religious use of the symbol!
It's not the Swastika itself that is banned but the Nazi version which looks significally different!

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by badidea

It's not the Swastika itself that is banned but the Nazi version which looks significally different!

卐

That's a swastika.

Doesn't look significantly different from the Nazi version to me. Hell, I could draw any sort of innocuous fylfot on my forehead, and these officious German politicians would think me Nazi. Hey, say I like Asian culture. The 卐 is very popular is Asian culture, brings good luck apparently. So, I cover myself in 卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐� �卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐� ��卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐 just because I want to have good luck, and as a result, I get punished. Uncultured twats.

And just imagine, somebody doesn't want me to have good luck, so they start painting themselves in crossed out 卐's in protest. They'll get arrested, as well!

[analogika]

Originally Posted by badidea 

Both the left and right turning versions are religious symbols!
The left turning version means night, bad luck and death in Hinduism!

edit: I just realized that the english and german version of the wiki article are different in this regard!
The english version is on your side!

So is my antique Japanese furniture.

I'd find it difficult to believe that a people deathly afraid of the number 4 (to the point where no official buildings have a 4th floor, nor do any theaters or concert halls have a 4th seat in their rows, let alone a fourth row) would decorate bedroom furniture with a symbol meaning death and bad luck.

[Zeeb]

I think its foolish to ban any symbol for any purpose. The best way to prevent the hate associated with the Nazi's is through education. Otherwise, people should have the freedom to use any symbol that they want in any way they see fit. This political correctness movement is not going to end up good for anyone.

This is just Germany trying to publicly distance itself from the past again.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by badidea 

It's not the Swastika itself that is banned but the Nazi version which looks significally different!

You never had a look at the actual law, did you?

http://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/86a.html

[typoon]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I'm with the Hindus (and Buddhists) on that one: you shouldn't force others to see symbols in the same context we (= Westerners) see them.

I totally agree.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

You never had a look at the actual law, did you?

http://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/86a.html

No but I read several articles about it AND I don't see anything in the actual law that contradicts to what I said!

"zum verwechseln ähnlich" is pretty blurred!

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

This is just Germany trying to publicly distance itself from the past again.

This is because we do not allow this on our streets anymore!

[Sherman Homan]

In near-by Hull, Massachusetts:

"Officials of this seaside community near Boston have decided to remove a floor whose tiles have American Indian swastikas inlaid in them. The floor was laid in Town Hall 66 years ago, before the Nazis adopted the ancient mystic emblem."

Massachusetts Town Votes To Remove Indian Swastikas - New York Times

[Kerrigan]

It isn't the symbol we should worry about, it's the countdown until Germany goes crazy again (as it does a few times each century).

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by badidea 

No but I read several articles about it AND I don't see anything in the actual law that contradicts to what I said!

The law explicitly contradicts to what you said!
You said:

Originally Posted by badidea 

It's not the Swastika itself that is banned but the Nazi version which looks significally different!

While the law not only bans the "Nazi version" of the swastika, it also bans everything that is "zum Verwechseln ähnlich". So the law is explicitly wide not explicitly specific as you claimed.

[Atomic Rooster]

[badidea]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

While the law not only bans the "Nazi version" of the swastika, it also bans everything that is "zum Verwechseln ähnlich". So the law is explicitly wide not explicitly specific as you claimed.

Not even blind people would say that Hindu swastikas are "zum verwechseln ähnlich" (striking similar) to a black swastika on a white background (with red surrounding and certain dimensions)!

like this one


and unfortunately even this one

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by badidea 

This is because we do not allow this on our streets anymore!

I don't see huge Nazi movements even in European countries that do not have bans on symbols. If you really think that German citizens will suddenly march on your streets with swastikas trying to reinstate the third reich--then a ban would merely be a bandaid solution anyway.

I still don't see how this isn't purely a political statement on Germany's part. They take every opportunity to make public statements to the effect of, "We're not Nazis anymore!" I'm more worried about the degradation of freedom of speech due to well-meaning bans. Taken to extremes, bans on symbols, speech etc are more likely to result in autocratic governments.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

I still don't see how this isn't purely a political statement on Germany's part. They take every opportunity to make public statements to the effect of, "We're not Nazis anymore!" I'm more worried about the degradation of freedom of speech due to well-meaning bans. Taken to extremes, bans on symbols, speech etc are more likely to result in autocratic governments.

You fail to see that this is neither new nor a peculiarity of Germany. Many other countries, among them Israel (it is covered under `offending the public sentiment'), France, Italy and Hungary, have laws which regulate the use of Nazi symbols. So it's not something that has been invented yesterday as a PR stunt.

Germany's drive to ban those symbols is rooted in its history, you're right about that, but to single it out and attribute this to set itself apart from its past is a bit of a stretch.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by badidea 

Not even blind people would say that Hindu swastikas are "zum verwechseln ähnlich" (striking similar) to a black swastika on a white background (with red surrounding and certain dimensions)!

Are you intentionally playing dense here to troll or what?

The "Nazi version" of the swastika and the Hindu version are strinkingly similar because they are absolutely identical. The swastika doesn't have to be on certain colours to be banned by law. And since when did the Nazis only use "certain dimensions".

The police has a list of symbols that are banned and clearly states that all variations are outlawed:

http://www.polizei.hessen.de/interne...b-28e46ce02000

[badidea]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

The "Nazi version" of the swastika and the Hindu version are strinkingly similar because they are absolutely identical.

ORLY? I can't believe that it is impossible for you to see a difference!

And since when did the Nazis only use "certain dimensions".

Probably since they chose it as their symbol (1920)!?

[olePigeon]

I think a ban on how it's protrayed by the Nazis would be fine, but not the symbol itself.

[Sherman Homan]

Banning political symbols and speech is not a good idea. Sometimes the best thing for scum and bacteria is a good dose of sunlight.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by moodymonster 

the hype is that because Germany wants to use it's presidency of the EU to introduce the ban EU wide.

Muhahahahahaha...

...I guess they don't see the irony in Germany wanting to tell the rest of Europe what to do.