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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Desktops > The Official Mac Pro Thread

The Official Mac Pro Thread (Page 2)
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bernt
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Aug 7, 2006, 02:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus
Huh? Apple has never taken returns on BTO/CTO units unless there was a defect.
I can't speak for the US, but here in Europe you have 14 days remorse when bought from AppleStore online. Within those 14 days you can send the machine back, no questions asked.
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TimmyDee51
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Aug 7, 2006, 02:59 PM
 
Thank god for the BTO option of the 2 GHz processors. That could just do it for me.
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G5power
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:01 PM
 
Simon
Agreed the new Mac Pro is a good value when compared to the G5 PM.

However it isn't fun putting the credit card back away and waiting for another day (Paris Expo?).
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mduell
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:04 PM
 
Yow, Apple is running a good scam on CPUs and RAM!

2.66->2.0 downgrade is $748 (374*2) retail, but Apple gives you just $300.
2.66->3.0 upgrade is $322 (161*2) in 1Ku pricing, but Apple charges $800.
That's so bad it's almost as if they switch what the prices should be... maybe a typo?

As far as RAM, Apple wants $150 per 512MB, $350 per 1GB, or $750 per 2GB module. That's 50% over Crucial at 512MB, 100% over Crucial at 1GB, and 50% over Crucial at 2GB.
Also, 4GB FB-DIMMs are available, albeit at $5k/ea, so the Mac Pro should go to 32GB max in not too long.

edit: The Xserve is already showing 4GB FB-DIMM support, so it can't be far off for the Mac Pro.
     
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:04 PM
 
I think the new configuration and pricing is fantastic! And did you see the new prices of the ACDs?! True the cheapest configuration might be a little high for people who don't need the power but want a headless Mac more powerful than the mini (Apple doesn't think there's a hole in their lineup there, but it seems to me there is), however my "perfect" BTO order now comes in at $1000 less than it would have yesterday so I'm excited.

It's too bad the only 2GB RAM option is 4x512MB, they probably did that to cut costs, but that uses up more slots than it needs to (I guess it has 8 slots though, so I won't have to worry about expanding?).
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mac128k-1984
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus
And no, the iMac isn't a desktop, it's a mounted notebook, which does not fit the needs/wants of most consumers otherwise AIOs would have taken off a looooooong time ago.
huh, that is some pretty twisted logic - at least to me. The iMac is a desktop. just because everything fits in one enclosure means its a notebook. and it has taken off, iMacs are a pretty popular line. You seem to be talking out of your butt on this subject.

Anyway my $.02 on the Macpro. I've been saving up thinking that I'd be spending 2k, not 3k. I'm not sure what I'll do, my mini runs what I have ok, but not great. The new MacPro does does seem overkill for my needs and to be honest, I love the small form factor that my intel mini brings. I'm not quite sure I want that behemoth belching out heat like an hyper-active heat pump.

I'm going to wait and see what the concensus is before I make any decisions.
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mac128k-1984
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by bernt
I can't speak for the US, but here in Europe you have 14 days remorse when bought from AppleStore online. Within those 14 days you can send the machine back, no questions asked.
No such luck here in the US. BTO sales are final, and on stock sales you have 14 days but must pay a 10% restocking fee if you return it.
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365
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Abbas
$2500 is way too much money for me to spend. I dont need four cores and I certainly dont need the crappy 7300GT. A Single dual core CPU with an x1800 around $2000 would've attracted a lot more buyers, IMHO.

As per Newegg at the moment- $760 for a 2.66GHz Woodcrest and $239 for an x1800XT/256MB.Reduce one of those CPUs and add that x1800 and we're EASILY under $2000.

-a
You and the others moaning about needing a "mid-range" machine are the type of customer that Apple doesn't want. They know that they can never please you, that you want the biggest spec for the lowest price and still won't be happy. They also know that luckily you're a VERY small percentage that can be ignored.
     
His Dudeness
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by mark.s
Might come with 256MB just so that they could get the price under 2500.... I'm curious to see what the full specs are.

But yes, shipping it with 256MB RAM is insane......
I know. With RAM being as expensive as it is, I'm surprised that they managed to get 256 in it. I mean, you'd have to take out a second mortgage to buy anything higher than that. Someone famous said something about the average American pc user not needing more than 512k or something like that.

And as for the ram, I'm joking. I just got 2 one-gig sticks for $200 including shipping.
     
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by 365
You and the others moaning about needing a "mid-range" machine are the type of customer that Apple doesn't want. They know that they can never please you, that you want the biggest spec for the lowest price and still won't be happy. They also know that luckily you're a VERY small percentage that can be ignored.
No, Apple could please such people. They've already explained what they want. These people are looking for a single dual core MacPro at a sub-$1800 price tag. Apple just does not want to provide it because Apple would rather get fat margins than many extra sales. Dude, I ended up getting an Inspiron because of Apple's stubborness in refusing to put a graphics card in the MacBook.

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mduell
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:19 PM
 
Note the PCIe bandwidth is configurable. All four slots are 16x mechanically (which is backward compatible with 8x, 4x, 2x, and 1x), but you can move around the bandwidth depending on what cards you have. They probably have something like a 40-lane PCIe controller, with 16 lanes dedicated for the double-high graphics slot, and the remaing 24 lanes floating. So you could have three 8x slots, a 16x slot and two 4x slots, a 16x slot and an 8x slot (1 slot unused) etc.

Certainly opens the door for SLI or CrossFire in the future.
     
G5power
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by 365
You and the others moaning about needing a "mid-range" machine are the type of customer that Apple doesn't want. They know that they can never please you, that you want the biggest spec for the lowest price and still won't be happy. They also know that luckily you're a VERY small percentage that can be ignored.

Great and thanks for stepping forward for Apple and telling me that I'm not a customer that Apple wants. You are so helpful and handled that with a nice subtle presentation that really puts a person at ease.

I'm not sure why you mention the "biggest spec for the lowest price". I acknowledge that the new high end system offers good value when compared to the G5 PM.

The issue is that not everyone wants to drink the apple kool-aid and goose step down the street carrying an iMac box home. Just because you don't want other options, that doesn't meant that it is wrong or illogical for others to have their opinion.

I gave up waiting on Apple over a year ago and bought a used dual 867. I'm ready to upgrade and once again Apple doesn't want to take my money.
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mduell
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by G5power
I'm ready to upgrade and once again Apple doesn't want to take my money.
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by G5power
I gave up waiting on Apple over a year ago and bought a used dual 867. I'm ready to upgrade and once again Apple doesn't want to take my money.
Buy another used/refurb or leftover stock machine. Pick up a G5 (either a PCI, PCI-X or PCIe based machine) for likely a good price now. Still plenty powerful for most people.

I have a dual processor 2.5GHz G5 machine w/ 3GB RAM, 300GB HD and a Radeon X800XT I'm thinking of selling...
     
Lateralus
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by mac128k-1984
huh, that is some pretty twisted logic - at least to me. The iMac is a desktop. just because everything fits in one enclosure means its a notebook. and it has taken off, iMacs are a pretty popular line. You seem to be talking out of your butt on this subject.
The iMac is not a desktop, I'm sorry. With the exception of the hard drive, it is based completely on notebook components. From the GPU, to the CPU, to the RAM, to the optical drive. Sticking a notebook on an arm and setting it on a desk does not in any way make it a desktop.

Talking out of my butt? What part of 'potential customers' did you fail to understand? Apple is putting their first real effort in many years into growing the Mac market. And since you can't grow a market by selling to the users you already have, you grow it by attacking the other market; the PC market, where AIOs account for so few of the total desktop sales that they barely register.

And don't allow the fact that the iMac is popular in the Mac market fool you. It's popular because it's the only economical desktop option that Apple offers its userbase. It has nothing to do with AIOs being desirable.
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Simon
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus
The iMac is not a desktop, I am sorry. With the exception of the hard drive, it is based completely on notebook components. From the GPU, to the CPU, to the RAM, to the optical drive.
I agree that the iMac is basically a notebook in a desktop enclosure. Nevertheless, your statement is wrong. The Radeon X1600 in the iMac is a desktop GPU. It's not a Mobility Radeon. That would be the notebook GPU (see MBP).
     
NYCFarmboy
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:30 PM
 
sweet sweet sweet sweet... but I'll wait for a 2nd revision early next year before byting .. my 1.42 g4 duely will hold me over until then....sigh
     
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:31 PM
 
....

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Abbas
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by 365
You and the others moaning about needing a "mid-range" machine are the type of customer that Apple doesn't want. They know that they can never please you, that you want the biggest spec for the lowest price and still won't be happy. They also know that luckily you're a VERY small percentage that can be ignored.
So you're saying that Apple only caters to the low end or the high end- no medium end? And you think that us medium-enders are a VERY small percentage? Thats an interesting philosophy.



-a
     
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:32 PM
 
That said, here's a suggestion. Why don't you open up a new "there's no headless Core 2 Mac" thread where all the bickering can be inserted. That way we can keep this thread clean and the discussion focused on the new Mac Pro - the reason for this thread.
     
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:33 PM
 
Well I guess the good news is that those not wanting/needing an Intel Mac Pro should be able to get a good price on a G5 tower, assuming of course apple lowers the price to blow out remaining stock.
     
k2director
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:33 PM
 
Regarding the high price of memory, did anyone catch this on Apple's Expansion page for the Mac Pro?

"To help dissipate heat, every Apple DIMM you purchase for your Mac Pro comes with its own preinstalled heat sink. This unique heat sink lets fans run slower — and quieter — yet keeps the memory cool enough to run at full speed."

Maybe that accounts for the higher-than-usual ram price...

http://www.apple.com/macpro/expansion.html
     
G5power
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus
What part of 'potential customers' did you fail to understand? Apple is putting their first real effort in many years into growing the Mac market. And since you can't grow a market by selling to the users you already have, you grow it by attacking the other market; the PC market, where AIOs account for so few of the total desktop sales that they barely register.

And don't allow the fact that the iMac is popular in the Mac market fool you. It's popular because it's the only economical desktop option that Apple offers its userbase. It has nothing to do with AIOs being desirable.
Lateralus - good response.

Ignoring potential customers is what is incredible. Not just people buying and retaining older systems longer then we would prefer, but potential switchers. I've been working on a friend for several months and he is interested but the options Apple provides are so limited. He thinks the mini is "cute but limited" and the Power Mac was so "big and kind of pricey". Meantime the iMac is crippled with it's limitations.
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365
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by G5power
Great and thanks for stepping forward for Apple and telling me that I'm not a customer that Apple wants. You are so helpful and handled that with a nice subtle presentation that really puts a person at ease.

I'm not sure why you mention the "biggest spec for the lowest price". I acknowledge that the new high end system offers good value when compared to the G5 PM.

The issue is that not everyone wants to drink the apple kool-aid and goose step down the street carrying an iMac box home. Just because you don't want other options, that doesn't meant that it is wrong or illogical for others to have their opinion.

I gave up waiting on Apple over a year ago and bought a used dual 867. I'm ready to upgrade and once again Apple doesn't want to take my money.
So build an Intel box that fits your needs exactly and stick Windows or Linux on there. I'm just stating facts, you're in the VERY small minority that Apple doesn't care about, it's nothing personal but you're high maintanance. If you're happy/able to use a dual 867mhz G4 then the Intel iMac is well beyond your needs.
     
mac128k-1984
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus
And don't allow the fact that the iMac is popular in the Mac market fool you.
Ok, I'll ignore the facts that the iMac is selling really well so I can believe your statement that the iMac (or AIOs) don't sell too well.
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:37 PM
 
EXPENSIVE !?!

From an european (ITALY) point of view:

DELL (W-Men)

Dell Precision 690-Two Intel® Xeon® 5150 (2.66GHz,1333,4MB) 750W
Windows® XP Professional autentico, SP2
2GB DDR2 667 Quad Channel FBD Memory (2x1GB)
USB Smartcard Reader Black Keyboard-Italian (QWERTY)
Schermo piatto Dell 19" 1907FP UltraSharp™ TCO'99 Black
256MB nVidia Quadro FX3500 Graphics Card
160GB (7,200 rpm) Serial ATA II con NCQ
3.5in 1.44MB Floppy Drive
Mouse Dell Black 2 Button USB Scroll Entry Mouse
16X DVD+/-RW Drive
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System Documentation (Italian)
W07692 - 690 ADVANCED July
3 anni di garanzia NBD (Next Business Day On-site )
No Anti-Virus software required
No Business Support Required

4.269,00 €

Totale IVA escl. Percentuale IVA Totale IVA incl.
Subtotal 4.269,00 € VAT 20,00% => 5.122,80 €
Shipping 80,00 € VAT 20,00% => 96,00 €

5.218,80 €

Apple (X-Men)

* 2.66 GHz Quad Xeon
* 2GB 667 DDR2 FB DIMM ECC - 4x512MB
* NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT 256MB SDRAM
* 160GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s drive @ 7200 rpm
* 16x SuperDrive DL (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
* Both Bluetooth 2.0+EDR and AirPort Extreme
* Tastiera e Mighty Mouse Apple
* Mac OS X
* Apple Cinema Display (flat-panel da 20")
* AppleCare Protection Plan per Mac Pro/Power Mac - Auto-enroll

* Cinque porte USB
* Due porte FireWire 400
* Due porte FireWire 800


Eur 3.297,50 VAT 20% => Eur 3.957,00

READ: VAT and Shipping included !
     
365
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Abbas
So you're saying that Apple only caters to the low end or the high end- no medium end? And you think that us medium-enders are a VERY small percentage? Thats an interesting philosophy.



-a
The iMac is the mid range, the Mac Mini is the low end
     
Lateralus
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
I agree that the iMac is basically a notebook in a desktop enclosure. Nevertheless, your statement is wrong. The Radeon X1600 in the iMac is a desktop GPU. It's not a Mobility Radeon. That would be the notebook GPU (see MBP).
In fact it may not be a Mobility component but in practice it is. Apple drops the GPU core and RAM frequencies drastically in iMacs to minimize heat output. Meaning that while the chip itself, according to serial number, may be a desktop component, the speeds it and its RAM are actually shipped at put its performance squarely in the range of its Mobile counterparts.
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by k2director
Regarding the high price of memory, did anyone catch this on Apple's Expansion page for the Mac Pro?

"To help dissipate heat, every Apple DIMM you purchase for your Mac Pro comes with its own preinstalled heat sink. This unique heat sink lets fans run slower — and quieter — yet keeps the memory cool enough to run at full speed."

Maybe that accounts for the higher-than-usual ram price...

http://www.apple.com/macpro/expansion.html
Everyone puts heatsinks on their FB-DIMMs. Crucial's FB-DIMM image:
     
Lateralus
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by mac128k-1984
Ok, I'll ignore the facts that the iMac is selling really well so I can believe your statement that the iMac (or AIOs) don't sell too well.
I think your computer is broken, it's apparently not allowing you to read the entirety of the posts that you're responding to.

Here, let me help;

Originally Posted by Lateralus
And don't allow the fact that the iMac is popular in the Mac market fool you. It's popular because it's the only economical desktop option that Apple offers its userbase. It has nothing to do with AIOs being desirable.
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by k2director
Regarding the high price of memory, did anyone catch this on Apple's Expansion page for the Mac Pro?

"To help dissipate heat, every Apple DIMM you purchase for your Mac Pro comes with its own preinstalled heat sink. This unique heat sink lets fans run slower — and quieter — yet keeps the memory cool enough to run at full speed."

Maybe that accounts for the higher-than-usual ram price...

http://www.apple.com/macpro/expansion.html
Heh. Only Apple could get away with charging a premium for $5 worth of RAM heatsinks!

Anyway, I gotta say this is the first desktop Mac in years that's made me drool and reach for my wallet. I want one yesterday!

Apple will have no problem selling these to studios and high-end users in professional creative fields. None what-so-ever. People have been waiting forever for a Mac that stacks up like this.
     
365
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:44 PM
 
Look you just want to build a machine that perfectly fits your needs but you want to pay iMac money. Like I say you're in a very small minority and Apple is never going to cater for you.

Perhaps all you moaners can enlighten us what you're looking to do with these machines that Apple should be building that an iMac can't achieve because anything that I can think of would necessitate buying a high end model.
     
mac128k-1984
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:45 PM
 
A couple of questions I have that I don't think have been addressed yet.
Noise and heat.

My prior powemacs were heat pumps, they had the effect of really increasing the temparture in a room, and in fact I've read that the G5 powermac also had this "ability." Any thoughts on if this puppy running cooler or warmer, also what about the noise factor.

My home office is rather small and it does not have AC so having something churn out heat is not an ideal situation and of course I wonder about the noise.

What's everybody's opinion on using the same form factor as the G5. Nice design, but big, I'm happy to see apple use the space to increase expandability.

I configured a unit that topped out over 3k, so I need to go back and lower my expectations (if I decide to buy).

Finally since this is all BTO, will the apple store carry stock unit?
Michael
     
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by 365
So build an Intel box that fits your needs exactly and stick Windows or Linux on there. I'm just stating facts, you're in the VERY small minority that Apple doesn't care about, it's nothing personal but you're high maintanance. If you're happy/able to use a dual 867mhz G4 then the Intel iMac is well beyond your needs.
Wow "then the Intel iMac is well beyond your needs". Another dose of insight. It's more like I'm running that because there are no other options from Apple at this time. It's kind of sad that sticking with an OS that I like, makes me a second class citizen to the big corporation and their jihadist.

I guess you'll get your wish at some point if current Apple trends continue. I'm tired of sitting on money waiting to spend it and some other neat consumer electronic items will come along.

I can't imagine purchasing a refurb G5 from Apple and locking myself into a non-Intel system.
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craigthomas
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Abbas
Sure, the iMac is a great buy but I already have a 24" LCD monitor that I dont want to get rid of and I need a headless Mac thats more powerful than iMac to dual boot into Windows and play games.

-a
The iMac runs a 2nd monitor, not just mirroring either. Not sure if it will run your 24" LCD though.

The iMac is a viable machine, even for the Pro user in many cases. Especially when CS3 becomes available/Universal. Our home machine is a new iMac, and it's much snappier than my TiBook, which I use as a professional Graphic Designer.

Also to spend $2,500 to be a pro user, indicates that you are probably making money with your computer. Seems to me, if you need that kind of speed, hopefully you are probably making enough to justify the expense. It's tax deductable! Whenever I've upgraded, I've never said, "Jeez I wish I had a slower machine that cost me less money." Usually, over time, and not much time, it's paid for itself. I know that's a lot of assumptions, but generally, if you make money with your machine, and you feel like your being dragged down by it, you be very glad you've upgraded. And $500 difference is no biggie over 2+ years time.
     
G5power
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:48 PM
 
mac128k-1984]

I'm glad to see Apple take advantage of the interior space on the existing enclosure. Four internal hard drives will be great for the pro level users.
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Lateralus
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by 365
Perhaps all you moaners can enlighten us what you're looking to do with these machines that Apple should be building that an iMac can't achieve because anything that I can think of would necessitate buying a high end model.
Simple; Drop-in expansion cards.

It's really a pretty basic concept: I want a computer that will allow me to use my current monitor *and* drop-in expansion cards as I see fit without having to drop nearly $2,500 to do it.

It's not a lot to ask, really.

Now, I'm in a weird place here because while I do want Apple to unleash a more economical headless desktop computer, I'll probably end up buying a Mac Pro anyways because I'm a retard and I've got money to blow.
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus
In fact it may not be a Mobility component but in practice it is. Apple drops the GPU core and RAM frequencies drastically in iMacs to minimize heat output. Meaning that while the chip itself, according to serial number, may be a desktop component, the speeds it and its RAM are actually shipped at put its performance squarely in the range of its Mobile counterparts.
Nice try. It remains a fact that the iMac's GPU is

a) not a notebook GPU (there's more than just clock rate to that btw)
b) the iMac's GPU is by far more powerful than any notebook GPU Apple offers
c) you'll have to back up your statement about Apple under-clocking the iMac's X1600, I wouldn't know of that. The MBP was under-clocked, not the iMac AFAIK.

You can make a case for a headless expandable mid-range Mac without badmouthing the iMac. Even more so if you have to stretch facts to support your argument.

That said, I can't understand why you - as a mod (cough, cough) - are still polluting the Mac Pro thread with something else. I just started a new thread for the headless whatever desktop Mac and I suggest you take it over there. This thread should be about the Mac Pro and not about the iMac, mini or any non-existing Mac.
     
SkaGoat
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:54 PM
 
I can picture Apple releasing something lower down, with a Single Conroe. To fill in the middle. But I think they wanted to get the Mac Pro out the door.

I myself would love a Mac that fits in the same slot the single 1.8 GHz PowerMac G5 did.

Not to mention a computer that uses regular DDR2 DIMMS.
     
Simon
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Aug 7, 2006, 03:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by mac128k-1984
A couple of questions I have that I don't think have been addressed yet.
Noise and heat.
Good point.

Apple is also offering the 3.0GHz Woodcrest as BTO option. It's got a TDP of 80W (x2 since it's a dual dual) so there should be ample cooling in the Mac Pro; but probably less than the quad G5 had.

No idea if it's noisy. I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't. Apple seemed to care more and more about making quieter pro Macs after the whole MDD noise baloney hit the fan. That said, WWDC is probably a bad place to test the noise level of these boxes., But since they're shipping now, we should get some real world reports pretty soon.
     
mduell
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Aug 7, 2006, 04:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
That said, here's a suggestion. Why don't you open up a new "there's no headless Core 2 Mac" thread where all the bickering can be inserted. That way we can keep this thread clean and the discussion focused on the new Mac Pro - the reason for this thread.
Done.
     
365
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Aug 7, 2006, 04:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by G5power
Wow "then the Intel iMac is well beyond your needs". Another dose of insight. It's more like I'm running that because there are no other options from Apple at this time. It's kind of sad that sticking with an OS that I like makes me a second class citizen to the big corporation and their jihadist.

I guess you'll get your wish at some point if current Apple trends continue. I'm tired of sitting on money waiting to spend it and some other neat consumer electronic items will come along.

I can't imagine purchasing a refurb G5 from Apple and locking myself into a non-Intel system.
The fact that you can achieve what you have to on the dual G4 just kills your argument. The difference between your machine and a dual core iMac is light years but let me guess you need more graphic power and the iMac only has a crappy Intel graphics chip set. Crappy says who? says all of the other moaners that have never even tried it.

I'm no Apple fanboy so your "jihadist" statement is a bullshit one. I'm their worst critic, I'm using a MacBook Pro that has every fault known to man and daren't send it in because it's a lottery whether it'll come back scratched or worse so you aint got a fanboy here. I'm as trapped as the next man because of the OS but I've tried Windows (briefly) and quite franly I'd rather cut my d*ck off than use that crap. The difference between me and you is that I've got a genuine grieveance yours is a perception gripe. After reading post after post exactly like yours for years I now recognise the classic signs of someone who you can never please and you fit that persona perfectly and without wanting to keep repeating myself, Apple and most others don't want you and quite frankly who can blame them.
     
Neo.cmg
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Aug 7, 2006, 04:03 PM
 
Bought mine about an hour ago...standard config + bluetooth 2.0 EDR/airport extreme card + wireless keyboard/mighty mouse + ATI x1900 graphics card. Estimated shipping is Sept. 12th.
     
Zoom
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Aug 7, 2006, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by 365
The iMac is the mid range, the Mac Mini is the low end
Yeah, there probably should be a new thread for this... but where would you put it? There is no Mac forum for it because it doesn't exist!

The iMac is not really midrange. If you price a Mac mini with a 20" LCD display, you're in the same basic price range as the iMac. So, in my view, they're the same market. You're just paying a premium for the AIO design (due, I suppose, to the laptop parts).

I am now solidly left out of the Apple market. I fall precisely in the category discussed by others with the same beef. I am a prosumer. I need more than an iMac or Mac mini, but way less than the new Mac Pros. Someone already said it, but I'll repeat the requirements:
  • headless
  • extra HD bay
  • single CPU (dual-core option)
  • quiet, cool - lower CPU speeds
  • fair number of ports (everyone needs these)
  • upgradeable GPU
  • upgradeable optical drive
  • 1-2 PCI slots
  • built-in BT and wifi

Note that I don't think you really need two optical drives, as long as you can upgrade the one you have easily.

The PCI slots (or PCIe or whatever is currrent) is a "would be nice" thing. Most Macs have just about everything you need built-in, but if you need more ports or something, it's nice to have at least a little space to throw in a card. I could live without that, if necessary - you can get most things with external hubs, external drives, etc.

Seriously... I'm ready to upgrade, I've got money allocated... but not $2200. I have no need of that much horsepower, I don't want something that big, I don't need 4 HD's or 2 optical drives, etc. I would think that the market for this would be much larger than the pro market, and maybe on par or slightly smaller than the consumer (iMac, Mac mini) market. I would think it has lots of potential - you could have a slightly higher markup and there would be lots of volume.

There's a huge gap now, though... I would have to hope that the reason for that gap is a forth-coming new product. Maybe it's just a "Mac", as someone said - not iMac, not Mac mini, not Mac Pro... just a Mac. That's what I need.
Late 2012 27" iMac 3.4GHz Intel Core i7, 24GB RAM, 3TB Fusion drive
     
365
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Aug 7, 2006, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus
Simple; Drop-in expansion cards.

It's really a pretty basic concept: I want a computer that will allow me to use my current monitor *and* drop-in expansion cards as I see fit without having to drop nearly $2,500 to do it.

It's not a lot to ask, really.

Now, I'm in a weird place here because while I do want Apple to unleash a more economical headless desktop computer, I'll probably end up buying a Mac Pro anyways because I'm a retard and I've got money to blow.
So stop moaning and buy it then
( Last edited by 365; Aug 7, 2006 at 05:18 PM. )
     
mduell
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Aug 7, 2006, 04:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by mac128k-1984
My prior powemacs were heat pumps, they had the effect of really increasing the temparture in a room, and in fact I've read that the G5 powermac also had this "ability." Any thoughts on if this puppy running cooler or warmer, also what about the noise factor.

<snip>

What's everybody's opinion on using the same form factor as the G5. Nice design, but big, I'm happy to see apple use the space to increase expandability.
The CPUs run a bit cooler, but if you load it up with hardware it's still going to be a heat pump like every other pro desktop mac.

It is big, but with the additional drive bays it's not so egregious.
     
mduell
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Aug 7, 2006, 04:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by craigthomas
The iMac runs a 2nd monitor, not just mirroring either. Not sure if it will run your 24" LCD though.
24" will be just fine... supports any number of inches up to 1920x1200 pixels.
     
Lateralus
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Aug 7, 2006, 04:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
Nice try. It remains a fact that the iMac's GPU is

a) not a notebook GPU (there's more than just clock rate to that btw)
b) the iMac's GPU is by far more powerful than any notebook GPU Apple offers
c) you'll have to back up your statement about Apple under-clocking the iMac's X1600, I wouldn't know of that. The MBP was under-clocked, not the iMac AFAIK.

You can make a case for a headless expandable mid-range Mac without badmouthing the iMac. Even more so if you have to stretch facts to support your argument.

That said, I can't understand why you - as a mod (cough, cough) - are still polluting the Mac Pro thread with something else. I just started a new thread for the headless whatever desktop Mac and I suggest you take it over there. This thread should be about the Mac Pro and not about the iMac, mini or any non-existing Mac.
A) There is more to it then clock speeds, yes. But clock speeds are one of the largest differentiators between mobile and desktop components.

B) Far more powerful? An X1600 with 128MBs in the iMac vs an X1600 Mobility with 256MBs of RAM in the MacBook Pro? Are you on something?

C) Why should I need to back up anything? Apple underclocks the GPUs in the towers for cryin out loud. They underclock them that much more in the iMacs. Hell, the Radeon 9600 in my old 2GHz iMac G5 shipped at around 30% slower than ATI rated it for. If you need proof, go fish for it. It's not my job to prove that the sky is blue. I suggesting checking out the overclocking reports for ATIcellerator.

As for me, as a moderator *cough* participating in this discussion, you have zero say over whether or not I do. And if you'd like to persist in claiming that you do, I'd be happy to put you in time out for a few days until WWDC blows over.
I like chicken
I like liver
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Skillzilla
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Aug 7, 2006, 04:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Brien
Initial stats coming in:
• Up to 3ghz
• Woodcrest
• Up to 2 times faster than the quad.
Officially posted and up for sale on apple.com! And we all know what that means.
Theres gonna be one huge price drop in powermacs of the powerpc brand!
     
mduell
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Aug 7, 2006, 04:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
c) you'll have to back up your statement about Apple under-clocking the iMac's X1600, I wouldn't know of that.
They've been doing it for years, why stop now?
     
 
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