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Americans, would you ever give up your citizenship?
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Atheist
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Jul 2, 2007, 09:13 PM
 
Something I've thought about over the last 2 years. As I'm unable to marry my partner and bring him into the U.S. legally, we are forced to live in his native country (which we both dislike). The part that frustrates me the most is that I still have to pay a significant amount of money in taxes to the U.S. government even though I don't get to enjoy the benefit of those tax dollars. The more time I spend away from the U.S., the more I wonder if I'll ever go back. Which gets me wondering about giving up my citizenship. In reality it would probably be a rather stupid thing to do.

What would you do in my situation?
     
ghporter
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Jul 2, 2007, 09:55 PM
 
I do not have the complications in my life that you have. On the other hand, I have spent a great deal of time thinking about the land of my birth, what I have gained from her, and what, if anything, I owe her. Renounce citizenship? Never.

On the other hand, living abroad is not something that's rare for Americans, and in your case it's something that is potentially a good choice for you. Many countries now acknowledge and accept marriage between people of the same sex-some of them very nice places to live.

Why would you have to pay taxes to the US for income you earn while not living in the States?

I'd look into emigrating to Canada. It's not a given that they'll accept you, (they're picky and they are a bit more effective in controlling those illegals from south of THEIR border), but if you have skills that will help Canada, they're likely to.

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Atheist  (op)
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Jul 2, 2007, 10:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Why would you have to pay taxes to the US for income you earn while not living in the States?
Because that's the law.

I'd look into emigrating to Canada. It's not a given that they'll accept you, (they're picky and they are a bit more effective in controlling those illegals from south of THEIR border), but if you have skills that will help Canada, they're likely to.
Looking into it but having spent the first 30 years of my life in Michigan, I'm not thrilled about living that far north. Canada is suffering from it's generous immigration policy. I recently read they have a backlog of over 800,000 applications for permanent residency. It can takes years to get your paperwork processed.
     
highstakes
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Jul 2, 2007, 11:16 PM
 
I know for a fact you can keep bugging your congressmen (all it takes is few visits to his/her office) and get a petition to reinstate/speed up the application process. You'd be surprised at what they can do for you.

Dont give up your citizenship, you never know when it might come in handy.
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Ghoser777
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Jul 2, 2007, 11:21 PM
 
You have to pay income tax if you are an American citizen living in another country? That seems kind of odd... Shouldn't you only have to pay taxes to the country that you are making the money in? What's the logic behind this?
     
Person Man
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Jul 2, 2007, 11:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Ghoser777 View Post
You have to pay income tax if you are an American citizen living in another country? That seems kind of odd... Shouldn't you only have to pay taxes to the country that you are making the money in? What's the logic behind this?


You have to ask?

It's the government. Nothing the government does makes any sense. Ever. It's a basic law of the universe.
     
anonymac
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Jul 2, 2007, 11:30 PM
 
You don't have to pay taxes up to a certain amount if you live in another country.

Hey, america isn't asking you to change your ways. It's just protecting the people who live here from what you call a "marriage."
     
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Jul 2, 2007, 11:48 PM
 
Not to sound trite, but I'd give up my citizenship about the same time I give up my Mac and the ability to breathe.

(Read: Never.)

Your situation sucks and I wish you the best. I hope you and your partner are able to move "home" soon.
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Cold Warrior
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Jul 2, 2007, 11:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by highstakes View Post
I know for a fact you can keep bugging your congressmen (all it takes is few visits to his/her office) and get a petition to reinstate/speed up the application process. You'd be surprised at what they can do for you.
All that does is piss off the immigration bureaucrats. They won't move any faster on your application just because Representative So-and-So puts in an inquiry. Maybe 10 years ago, but not today.
     
starman
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Jul 3, 2007, 12:20 AM
 
Think of it this way: if you give it up for someone and sometime down the line you break up, you're completely screwed.

You're giving up your citizenship to your home country. I'd never in a million years ask anyone to do that for me. That's just too much to ask.

The only exception is if you have nothing to go back home for. I have too many family/friends to even think about it for a millisecond.

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Jul 3, 2007, 02:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by anonymac View Post
You don't have to pay taxes up to a certain amount if you live in another country.

Hey, america isn't asking you to change your ways. It's just protecting the people who live here from what you call a "marriage."
Aha! He pops back in, to get his little dig in, after his post and run in the thread where the question concerned homosexuality being "normal," a few weeks back.
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Jul 3, 2007, 02:24 AM
 
The US is the only developed country that taxes its citizens who are living outside its borders on income they earn overseas. Most countries have concepts of sovereignty that only extend to their borders. Just noting that.
     
peeb
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Jul 3, 2007, 02:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by anonymac View Post
It's just protecting the people who live here from what you call a "marriage."
It's odd that you are so insecure that you feel your marriage is threatened by other people's. I feel sorry for you.
     
peeb
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Jul 3, 2007, 02:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Ghoser777 View Post
You have to pay income tax if you are an American citizen living in another country? That seems kind of odd... Shouldn't you only have to pay taxes to the country that you are making the money in? What's the logic behind this?
The US has double taxation treaties with many, but not all countries (they detail who has the right to tax who, and usually protect people from paying tax twice). Not all countries are covered.
     
peeb
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Jul 3, 2007, 02:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
What would you do in my situation?
A friend of mine in your situation has had luck (but not an easy time) with the Canada route.
     
Jawbone54
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Jul 3, 2007, 03:09 AM
 
As things stand, I can't imagine ever giving up my American citizenship. The U.S. has its problems, but good god, I love this country.
     
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Jul 3, 2007, 07:50 AM
 
Renouncing a citizenship for a little money must be the stupidest thing ever. Don't do it.

Maybe you've talked with wussy immigration lawyers in the past. Get in contact with lawyers of Cohen and Grigsby: they are known to use/abuse the H1B program for allowing anyone enter the U.S.
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Jul 3, 2007, 07:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Godfather View Post
Renouncing a citizenship for a little money must be the stupidest thing ever.
It ain't just money, is it?

The government taxing you even when you don't live in the country is them exerting ownership.
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Doofy
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Jul 3, 2007, 08:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
What would you do in my situation?
If you're in a position to:

1) Retain citizenship.
2) Acquire a self-owning offshore shell corporation.
3) Have your employment contracted to the shell. So, your boss contracts the shell to do the job, not you. Real easy if you're self employed or freelance.
4) Have shell pay your expenses.

Bingo. No tax.
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Jul 3, 2007, 08:15 AM
 
I've looked into moving to an native English-speaking country outside the U.S. before but have pretty much written it off. I don't have a college degree and though highly-skilled, I just don't have enough "points" to get in. Canada is pretty much the only country I would have a shot at but when it comes down to it, it's not much better than the U.S. so why bother?

Just an idea if you need to stay in Michigan, you could look into a more "family friendly" area instead of moving abroad. Ferndale is the gay mecca of Michigan - host of the area Pride celebration, mayor and some city council members are gay, large population segment is gay, etc. It's so gay around here, I almost feel like an outsider being straight.
     
highstakes
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Jul 3, 2007, 10:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
All that does is piss off the immigration bureaucrats. They won't move any faster on your application just because Representative So-and-So puts in an inquiry. Maybe 10 years ago, but not today.
?? How will it piss of immigration bureaucrats? He is going to a congressmens office and asking for help bring his parter to this country, not asking to allow millions of illegal immigrant become legal. Congressmen wont say "Sorry, I am against this immigant-issue, so your partner is stuck in his country". This has worked with universities months after 9/11; lot of professors went to their congressmen to ask them to speed/reinstate the application process, and allow graudate students from India to come do research here. I was a TA at that time, we must've visited local congressmens office about 10 times, and wrote a lot of letter to him beforehand...we got our Indian grad students in time for following fall semester. Granted they missed two semester, but we got the students.
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Steve Bosell
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Jul 3, 2007, 11:23 AM
 
If I was forced to give up my citizenship, I would become a Mexican citizen before a Canadian citizen.
     
DakarÊ’
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Jul 3, 2007, 11:29 AM
 
And...?
     
Mastrap
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Jul 3, 2007, 11:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
If you're in a position to:

1) Retain citizenship.
2) Acquire a self-owning offshore shell corporation.
3) Have your employment contracted to the shell. So, your boss contracts the shell to do the job, not you. Real easy if you're self employed or freelance.
4) Have shell pay your expenses.

Bingo. No tax.

Not anymore, at least not in Canada. The tax people got wise to that years ago. If a significant amount of your income comes from one source then as far as taxes are concerned you're on payroll, like it or not.
     
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Jul 3, 2007, 11:58 AM
 
As much as I disagree with some of the policies and inner workings of the US government, I couldn't see myself ever renoucing my citizenship.
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Doofy
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Jul 3, 2007, 12:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mastrap View Post
Not anymore, at least not in Canada. The tax people got wise to that years ago. If a significant amount of your income comes from one source then as far as taxes are concerned you're on payroll, like it or not.
But would what we're talking about (avoidance of paying taxes to Uncle Sam when you don't live there) even be an issue in Canada?

Canada would be taxing you, therefore surely the tax treaties would kick in and you wouldn't owe the US anything.

I guessed the OP was referring to low-tax locations or wouldn't have bothered with the question?
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Cold Warrior
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Jul 3, 2007, 12:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by highstakes View Post
?? How will it piss of immigration bureaucrats? He is going to a congressmens office and asking for help bring his parter to this country, not asking to allow millions of illegal immigrant become legal. Congressmen wont say "Sorry, I am against this immigant-issue, so your partner is stuck in his country". This has worked with universities months after 9/11; lot of professors went to their congressmen to ask them to speed/reinstate the application process, and allow graudate students from India to come do research here. I was a TA at that time, we must've visited local congressmens office about 10 times, and wrote a lot of letter to him beforehand...we got our Indian grad students in time for following fall semester. Granted they missed two semester, but we got the students.
The congressman's staff will do their part, working to raise the issue, but ICE/INS won't move on the issue any faster for family/partner stuff. I've seen responsiveness for the stuff you mention - workers, students, etc. - but not spouses, fiance(e)s, or partners. That part of the visa system grinds on, impervious and uncaring, in its bureaucratic malaise.
     
nonhuman
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Jul 3, 2007, 04:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
Something I've thought about over the last 2 years. As I'm unable to marry my partner and bring him into the U.S. legally, we are forced to live in his native country (which we both dislike). The part that frustrates me the most is that I still have to pay a significant amount of money in taxes to the U.S. government even though I don't get to enjoy the benefit of those tax dollars. The more time I spend away from the U.S., the more I wonder if I'll ever go back. Which gets me wondering about giving up my citizenship. In reality it would probably be a rather stupid thing to do.

What would you do in my situation?
Since neither of you want to stay in the country you're in, I'd say it would be prudent to keep the US citizenship at least for now. Unless you happen to have dual citizenship with somewhere (do you?) renouncing your US citizenship would put you in a very awkward position, especially if you ever wanted, or needed, to travel. As has been pointed out, the tax issue will go away depending on what country you end up in.

I know next to nothing about the issue, so what exactly are the impediments here? What are the complications with bringing a spouse into the US? And what are the complications with getting married in one of the places where it's currently allowed? Why wouldn't it work for you to move to Massachusetts, have him come on a tourist visa, and then get married?
     
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Jul 3, 2007, 04:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Why wouldn't it work for you to move to Massachusetts, have him come on a tourist visa, and then get married?
The INS does not recognize gay marriage.
     
Angus_D
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Jul 3, 2007, 06:21 PM
 
I thought the first 80k of foreign earnings were tax free under US law. And even then, probably only if you bring them back into the country...
     
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Jul 3, 2007, 06:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
The INS does not recognize gay marriage.
The current name is USCIS/DHS/DOJ.
     
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Jul 3, 2007, 06:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Godfather View Post
The current name is USCIS/DHS/DOJ.
It's tough to keep up. Seems like they change their name every few years. Just like a fly-by-night internet scam company. [The comparison is deliberate.]

Regardless of name, it's just, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." And, "The more things change, the more they stay the same."
     
ghporter
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Jul 3, 2007, 07:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
Because that's the law.
I just did some research and found out more than just "it's the law". In general you can exclude a pretty large chunk of earned income if you live in a foreign country for most of the year. For 2003 & 2004 that exclusion was $80,000. So the tax burden isn't as bad as it might be.

I can also see "not wanting to live that far north" as a problem, but remember that they actually grow semitropical crops in southern Ontario, so it's not THAT bad. The "generous immigration" issue is a real problem though. Anyway, Canada was just a suggestion.

As a GI, I am learned that a lot of retired GIs like to retire to places like Costa Rica and Honduras. Belize is another attractive place, especially since the local language is English and some of us are just too dense to pick up more than a little bit of Spanish .

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Atheist  (op)
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Jul 3, 2007, 09:08 PM
 
Thanks everyone for your input. I'm happy the thread has maintained it's integrity this long.

Well, just today we got word from the Canadian embassy that they won't let my partner into the country to study. He was accepted to a university in Vancouver and was going to pursue his Masters Degree. They denied him a student visa because they felt he couldn't "prove" his intention of going to school and not leaving Canada upon completion of his studies. Mind you, he never once was given the opportunity to speak to an actual human at the embassy. For all of you citizens of developed countries you have no freakin' idea how poorly they treat citizens of the Third World. No, he doesn't have a criminal record. No, he's never overstayed his previous visits to Canada. No, he's not a bad person. Citizens of Third World countries are treated with suspicion and contempt for no other reason than their country of birth. I'm so frustrated I can hardly come up with words to describe my feelings.

My tax burden is high because I earn my money directly from U.S. companies. Although I'm not physically in the U.S., I do all my work online and they issue 1099's for my services. If I'm able to set up business somewhere legitimately in another country I suppose I could dodge the taxes.

I've looked into Belize and Costa Rica. Those countries are mostly attractive to retirees. I'm nowhere near retiring. Belize is too Third World. Costa Rica would prove to be too expensive. Neither would work for me in the short term.

Right now I'm in limbo as we are desperate to leave where we are now but don't have anywhere to go. It's not too hard for me to go to other countries. As a U.S. citizen, I can go pretty much anywhere, however my partner is not so lucky.
     
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Jul 4, 2007, 12:03 PM
 
It is a pity that they denied him a student visa.

The US requires proof of having enough funds to pay for tuition and living expenses, and I imagine that's the only indicator they take on whether you want to stay in the country (other than the checkbox "Are you planning to stay in the United States? [yes] [no]").

Try for an F1 visa instead of trying for Canada again.

Oh, btw, what country are you in? What are his skills? What's so undesirable about his native land?

I am sure you've abandoned the idea of becoming a citizen of nowhere by now, I hope.
( Last edited by The Godfather; Jul 4, 2007 at 12:09 PM. )
     
abe
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Jul 5, 2007, 05:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
Thanks everyone for your input. I'm happy the thread has maintained it's integrity this long.

Well, just today we got word from the Canadian embassy that they won't let my partner into the country to study. He was accepted to a university in Vancouver and was going to pursue his Masters Degree. They denied him a student visa because they felt he couldn't "prove" his intention of going to school and not leaving Canada upon completion of his studies. Mind you, he never once was given the opportunity to speak to an actual human at the embassy. For all of you citizens of developed countries you have no freakin' idea how poorly they treat citizens of the Third World. No, he doesn't have a criminal record. No, he's never overstayed his previous visits to Canada. No, he's not a bad person. Citizens of Third World countries are treated with suspicion and contempt for no other reason than their country of birth. I'm so frustrated I can hardly come up with words to describe my feelings.

My tax burden is high because I earn my money directly from U.S. companies. Although I'm not physically in the U.S., I do all my work online and they issue 1099's for my services. If I'm able to set up business somewhere legitimately in another country I suppose I could dodge the taxes.

I've looked into Belize and Costa Rica. Those countries are mostly attractive to retirees. I'm nowhere near retiring. Belize is too Third World. Costa Rica would prove to be too expensive. Neither would work for me in the short term.

Right now I'm in limbo as we are desperate to leave where we are now but don't have anywhere to go. It's not too hard for me to go to other countries. As a U.S. citizen, I can go pretty much anywhere, however my partner is not so lucky.

YouTube - Immigration Gumballs

This is a MUST SEE video for anyone interested in the immigration debate, whether you are a citizen, an illegal alien or a Congressman. ... all » This clip from the longer video, Immigration by the Numbers, features Roy Beck demonstrating the catastrophe of the huge numbers of both legal and illegal immigration by Third World people into the modern nations. He uses standard statistics and simple gumballs to show this disaster in the making.

Video was done by roy beck:

Roy Beck: Information from Answers.com
Though you mention Canada and this video refers to the USA, the principle must be the same. We can't save everyone. We can't even afford to maintain the immigration numbers we have now.

They MUST be lowered.
( Last edited by abe; Jul 5, 2007 at 05:21 AM. )
America should know the political orientation of government officials who might be in a position to adversely influence the future of this country. http://tinyurl.com/4vucu5
     
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Jul 5, 2007, 11:54 AM
 
Check out the other thread, where there is a declaration just like that, make in the 1880s. There are always people running round with their hair on fire about this, and immigration is always what it always has been - necessary and desirable. Keep em coming - how else is the US going to support its aging population?
     
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Jul 5, 2007, 02:27 PM
 
I only got my citizenship a few years ago, so I'm not about to give it up. I also heard, and I could be foggy on this, but I think if you renounce your citizenship, you can never travel back to the U.S. Officially, the American government does not recognize dual citizenship, you are expected to renounce any other membership (not that they really enforce this) but I think renouncing your American citizenship could cause you trouble if you ever needed to come back, even briefly.

A friend of mine has moved to Japan full time and is married to a Japanese woman, but their citizenship naturalization process is far worse than here. Fortunately, he doesn't work for an American company so there's no way he can be forced to pay taxes here. That's not totally relevant, but your ability to travel here and elsewhere freely is an ace up your sleeve that you should probably keep.

I'm sorry about your partner's student visa falling through. I wish you guys the best.
     
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Jul 5, 2007, 06:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by shinykaro View Post
Officially, the American government does not recognize dual citizenship, you are expected to renounce any other membership (not that they really enforce this).
This is not true.
     
DakarÊ’
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Jul 5, 2007, 06:46 PM
 
Actually, I've heard that too.
     
Doofy
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Jul 5, 2007, 07:11 PM
 
Here's something from the Department Of State:

persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should also be aware that the fact that a person has renounced U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations
Interesting, no?
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nonhuman
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Jul 5, 2007, 07:13 PM
 
I know a ton of people with dual citizenship between the US and the UK, the US and Jamaica, the US and Russia, the US and Israel, the US and Australia, &c. It's definitely possible.
     
peeb
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Jul 5, 2007, 07:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Here's something from the Department Of State:



Interesting, no?
What's going on there is that there is more to renouncing ones citizenship than simply saying it is so. For example, even if one is outside the US, simply filing a paper saying that you have renounced your citizenship, instead of filing taxes, will not fly.
     
nonhuman
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Jul 5, 2007, 07:18 PM
 
There's a whole big process involved in renouncing your citizenship. I looked it up once. You have to take an oath and everything, and still have to convince them that you really mean it.
     
Doofy
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Jul 5, 2007, 07:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
Costa Rica would prove to be too expensive.
You could try Uruguay. Quick passport program, no income tax and I saw a 2 acre beachfront (with private beach) lot for $1,600 (that's $1,600, not $1,600k) there not so long back.
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nonhuman
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Jul 5, 2007, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
You could try Uruguay. Quick passport program, no income tax and I saw a 2 acre beachfront (with private beach) lot for $1,600 (that's $1,600, not $1,600k) there not so long back.
Sold!
     
Doofy
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Jul 5, 2007, 07:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
There's a whole big process involved in renouncing your citizenship. I looked it up once. You have to take an oath and everything, and still have to convince them that you really mean it.
Oh yeah. Once Uncle Sam owns your ass...

This whole thing is one of my major problems with the US - the fact that it doesn't seem to know where its sovereign territory ends... ...apparently, even if you're not a US citizen but have been resident for a while, the IRS will try and poke you for taxes once you've left (as if you were a citizen).

A few other countries have this lack of boundaries issue with other areas of life too (IIRC, illegal to offer a lottery ticket for sale to an Oz citizen - technically meaning a Brit selling a ticket in the UK to an Aussie in the UK on vacation could result in an extradition to Oz for the Brit).
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
peeb
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Jul 5, 2007, 07:51 PM
 
For once, I agree with you.
     
ThinkInsane
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Jul 5, 2007, 08:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
I know a ton of people with dual citizenship between the US and the UK, the US and Jamaica, the US and Russia, the US and Israel, the US and Australia, &c. It's definitely possible.

It's possible, and fairly common, I myself have U.S. and U.K. citizenship. The U.S. doesn't recognize my U.K. citizenship, but I've never been told I had to renounce it either.

I'll not be giving up either. If I get in trouble, I want as many embassies as possible working on my behalf!

And Atheist, you mentioned Costa Rica but said it was too expensive. I've found it to be quite affordable, and although there are many retirees there, there are plenty of younger folks too. There are some sweet benefits that they offer as well, like admission to the national health care program for (If I remember correctly) $250 and although they won't give you citizenship, you can become (again, if I remember correctly) national resident status, which gives you basically the same rights as a citizen. And you can't beat the weather. It's been a while since I've been, but you might want to look into it a bit more.
( Last edited by ThinkInsane; Jul 5, 2007 at 10:05 PM. Reason: Afterthoughts)
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abe
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Jul 5, 2007, 11:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
Check out the other thread, where there is a declaration just like that, make in the 1880s. There are always people running round with their hair on fire about this, and immigration is always what it always has been - necessary and desirable. Keep em coming - how else is the US going to support its aging population?
You expect the readership here to go along with that kind of GW Bushian, good ol boy reckoning?

Why not answer the points in the video if you can?
America should know the political orientation of government officials who might be in a position to adversely influence the future of this country. http://tinyurl.com/4vucu5
     
 
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