[brassplayersrock²]

to add to my previous post.


this video of this kid being a total jackass/dumbass being put online, on tv, ect for the world to see should also be punishment enough. possible future jobs can be unattainable, people will be like, oh you're the kid that got tazed at sen. kerry's meeting in floida huh? so on and so forth. This entire situation will be with him the rest of his life.


Alex

[wallinbl]

ESPN - Two Florida State players arrested, suspended - College Football

Now they're tasing at FSU.

[climber]

Originally Posted by theDreamer 

climber, you missed this officers report who was the first to make contact and how he was told to come handle the situation by those in charge of the event.

I am not sure what your point is. Obviously those in charge decided they wanted the young man to leave. That is their right. I would only assume it was communicated to the officers. My point revolves around the actions of the police officers after he was allowed to proceed with his questions. It is obvious that Kerry encourage his questions. It is also pretty clear the officials and the Police allowed it as well. My point is, what did the officers do to get him to leave before they put their hands on him? As far as I can up to that time he was permitted to be there. That is did the officers try a non-phsical approach first. I do not think so. Officers are trained to not be physical with individuals like this unless they have no other choice. As I said before, they should should have first gotten into his field of view and ordered him out. They could have told him he would be arrested for trespass if he did not comply. If he still refused then go ahead and arrest him. I find it very interesting that he was not charged with trespass. I do not think his actions rise to disturbing the peace or inciting a riot like the report says.

[subego]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

this video of this kid being a total jackass/dumbass being put online, on tv, ect for the world to see should also be punishment enough. possible future jobs can be unattainable, people will be like, oh you're the kid that got tazed at sen. kerry's meeting in floida huh? so on and so forth. This entire situation will be with him the rest of his life.

No.

There are plenty of people who would see this as a positive on the resume. Those would also happen to be the type of people he would like to work for.

It's not like he's ever going to try and get a job at Dow Chemical or something.

[subego]

Originally Posted by climber 

That is did the officers try a non-phsical approach first. I do not think so.

From Wise's statement:

"I proceeded to Meyer's location and advised him that he needed to stop yelling and causing a disturbance or he would be escorted off the property."

[irunat2am]

Originally Posted by driven 

If that's the training they are given, then I even more strongly believe in my stance that universities shouldn't have "police" and shouldn't be armed with a taser or any other weapon. Stick with security guards and call the real police when the situation justifies it.

At least in Oregon (believe it's almost everywhere), the public safety officers go through the exact same training and academy that "real officers" go through. That is the exact same training that "real police" would have also "really received". How they use it, is up to the person and department policies. "Really".

I guarantee you 100% they all had the exact same taser training that cops have. Just cause they have the training though, doesn't mean they won't make stupid decisions.

[climber]

Originally Posted by subego 

From Wise's statement:

"I proceeded to Meyer's location and advised him that he needed to stop yelling and causing a disturbance or he would be escorted off the property."

Yes, and Wise also said that he then allowed Meyer to go back to the podium after prodding from Kerry. In other words he was allowed to proceed and they permitted him to stay. It is when they changed their mind again that I have a problem.

Disrupting a Campus organized event like this is hardly something new. There can be significant consequences if any student violates the student code of conduct. This would include expulsion from the university. That is all that should have happened here. The police should have stayed within the realm of protecting Kerry and the other participants. If he was a threat to any of them (or himself) then firm action would be quite appropriate. I am not a big fan of Kerry, but his actions here seem to be consistent with giving the guy a break and allowing his twisted rants (disguised as questions). It seems to me the officials/officers were enraged by his speech. My guess is they thought Kerry and the event deserved more respect and lost their patience.

[climber]

Originally Posted by irunat2am 

At least in Oregon (believe it's almost everywhere), the public safety officers go through the exact same training and academy that "real officers" go through. That is the exact same training that "real police" would have also "really received". How they use it, is up to the person and department policies. "Really".

I guarantee you 100% they all had the exact same taser training that cops have. Just cause they have the training though, doesn't mean they won't make stupid decisions.

I think his point is that this kind of enforcement is not needed in a college campus.

I can only be reminded of the events of Kent state many decades ago. Some may argue the authorities were justified and legal in their actions that ended with unarmed students being shot and killed. I think most people see it the failure by the authorities it probably was. Anyone who thinks the Florida event was inciting a riot should look at the footage back at Kent state, or any of the other major events of the 60's or 70's.

[subego]

Originally Posted by climber 

Yes, and Wise also said that he then allowed Meyer to go back to the podium after prodding from Kerry. In other words he was allowed to proceed and they permitted him to stay. It is when they changed their mind again that I have a problem.

What gives you the idea that by allowing Meyer to go back to the podium, they revoked the stated conditions of being permitted to stay: stop yelling and causing a disturbance?

[stwain2003]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

Being John Kerry will do that to you.

hahahaha

[brassplayersrock²]

Originally Posted by subego 

No.

There are plenty of people who would see this as a positive on the resume. Those would also happen to be the type of people he would like to work for.

It's not like he's ever going to try and get a job at Dow Chemical or something.

out of interest. would you name a few for me please? Thank you



Alex

[subego]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

out of interest. would you name a few for me please? Thank you

Moveon.org
Greenpeace
Cindy Sheehan

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by climber 

I think his point is that this kind of enforcement is not needed in a college campus.

I can only be reminded of the events of Kent state many decades ago. Some may argue the authorities were justified and legal in their actions that ended with unarmed students being shot and killed. I think most people see it the failure by the authorities it probably was. Anyone who thinks the Florida event was inciting a riot should look at the footage back at Kent state, or any of the other major events of the 60's or 70's.

Please tell me you aren't likening incapacitation to murder. To wit, I would gladly take some medicine that knocks me out, but I would not take medicine that kills me.

Honestly, if a guy is kicking and screaming and refuses to do what you're trying to get him to do, it seems to me you have two options: You can let him do what he wants or you can use force. These folks chose the latter. Again they have a choice: They could use physical force, strong-arming him and quite possibly causing injury, or they could just knock him down with a low-powered stun. Unless you think the guy really should have been allowed to continue, I don't see how you can say they were that far out of line.

[brassplayersrock²]

Originally Posted by subego 

Moveon.org
Greenpeace
Cindy Sheehan

that's a good start. anymore?


Alex

[irunat2am]

Originally Posted by climber 

I think his point is that this kind of enforcement is not needed in a college campus.

I think it has it's place. I think that it's good to have armed officers for an "OH S**T" situation.

Originally Posted by climber

I can only be reminded of the events of Kent state many decades ago. Some may argue the authorities were justified and legal in their actions that ended with unarmed students being shot and killed. I think most people see it the failure by the authorities it probably was. Anyone who thinks the Florida event was inciting a riot should look at the footage back at Kent state, or any of the other major events of the 60's or 70's.

Honestly never heard of it! I'll check it out! Thanks

[subego]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

that's a good start. anymore?

The pink Statue of Liberty people
The Nation
PETA

[brassplayersrock²]

Originally Posted by subego 

The pink Statue of Liberty people
The Nation
PETA

why would these places hire him?


Alex

[subego]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

why would these places hire him?

Who knows? How fast can he type?

The point is, these organizations support sticking it to the "man" and civil disobedience on principle, and hence would plausibly see him being a ****head as a job qualification.

[Sörnäinen]

Originally Posted by theDreamer 

My thing is though, he was resisting arrest and not letting the cops simply cuff him so they could easily escort him out.
A simple shock from this will let them complete the task of cuffing him and diffuse the situation else where.

No No No No No No No.
This guy can´t be a threat to ONE trained police officer. and definitely not to a bunch of 4, 5 or 6 of them.

It is so weird - in the U.S.A. you need police on a Campus (not even the slightest idea of having even a guard in a german University), since the country is SO dangerous - how can people overreact that much to a simple little provocateur using his civil rights, if you have to face REALLY dangerous situations all day? :-O

Originally Posted by driven 

If that's the training they are given, then I even more strongly believe in my stance that universities shouldn't have "police" and shouldn't be armed with a taser or any other weapon. Stick with security guards and call the real police when the situation justifies it.

That´s the point. THIS is a terrible example how poorly trained personal will lead to really dangerous situations. In an incident like this the german police would have been headshaking and probably complaining to the organizer of the event for not being able to get along with that situation without escalating it.

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Police are indeed needed on campus, but they should be better trained than those Florida clowns. Further, my school is part of a large, statewide system, and the police here belong to that whole system, so it's a large enough organization that it's pretty well managed and immune from cronyism, which is a major problem for small police organizations.

This is really fascinating from a european point of view... as i said above: There is no police in schools or on a University campus in Germany, and i don´t think there are in other E.U. countries. But it surely is less dangerous living in the E.U. And you definitely wouldn´t be tasered for just making a stupid show at the speech of a politician.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Are you seriously back, and blatantly copying Dakar? Impressive.

[climber]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Please tell me you aren't likening incapacitation to murder. To wit, I would gladly take some medicine that knocks me out, but I would not take medicine that kills me.

All the charges against the guardsmen were dismissed. So it was not murder at Kent state. At least if you follow the logic around here

[brassplayersrock²]

I liked the brassplayersrock nick I had here but for some reason some of the abilities, and my stars were taken away from that account, and since it has been so long since I have been around I figured I'd make a new nick and just be away with the old one. As I said above, I like the bpr nick so I made a it have a squared symbol for a fresh start. I remembered dakar's numbering scheme thing and thought it would be fun to do something like it. My signature though, I think that it's funny, and it relates to what I do for a living. :-) So, the idea of what dakar has done is there with the squared nick; but the signature reflects part of my life, and that is what makes my signature mine :-)

Alex

dakar, you can PM if you want

[theDreamer]

Originally Posted by Sörnäinen 

No No No No No No No.
This guy can´t be a threat to ONE trained police officer. and definitely not to a bunch of 4, 5 or 6 of them.

It is so weird - in the U.S.A. you need police on a Campus (not even the slightest idea of having even a guard in a german University), since the country is SO dangerous - how can people overreact that much to a simple little provocateur using his civil rights, if you have to face REALLY dangerous situations all day? :-O

Who ever said he was a threat to the officers?
~Students
~Senator
~Officials who were running the event
~Press

Yes the officers could handle him, and they did. He was a "threat" to others and an unknown threat on what he may/may not do.

[Sörnäinen]

Originally Posted by theDreamer 

Who ever said he was a threat to the officers?
~Students
~Senator
~Officials who were running the event
~Press

Yes the officers could handle him, and they did. He was a "threat" to others and an unknown threat on what he may/may not do.

He was no a threat to anyone. How do you even think that? Did you see the videos? There is enough material on the web to clearly see what happens:

The organizers of the event were fed up with his provocative ideas and the way he presented them in an annoying smartass-way. They cut his microphone, then the police officers tried to put him out.

They did that without any idea of how to do that - no training, no abilities - instantly started touching him, escalating the situation, pushing adrenaline and aggression, were unable to control a totally NOT dangerous guy and finally tasered a guy already laying on the ground.

A simple YouTube search shows that - there are even videos from different angles, made by different people.

These police officers as well as the responsible officials behind them should be fired. They were the biggest threat in that room.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

I remembered dakar's numbering scheme thing and thought it would be fun to do something like it. My signature though, I think that it's funny, and it relates to what I do for a living. :-) So, the idea of what dakar has done is there with the squared nick; but the signature reflects part of my life, and that is what makes my signature mine :-)

Alex

Something "like" Dakar? Or the exact same thing...
It's funny that you think you've "matured," and now you're ready for all of this "mature" conversation and you want to deal with things in a "mature" way.
"mature"...I just wanted to say it again.

[brassplayersrock²]

why you be breakin' my balls? /cartman voice


Alex

[theDreamer]

Originally Posted by Sörnäinen 

He was no a threat to anyone. How do you even think that? Did you see the videos? There is enough material on the web to clearly see what happens:

The organizers of the event were fed up with his provocative ideas and the way he presented them in an annoying smartass-way. They cut his microphone, then the police officers tried to put him out.

They did that without any idea of how to do that - no training, no abilities - instantly started touching him, escalating the situation, pushing adrenaline and aggression, were unable to control a totally NOT dangerous guy and finally tasered a guy already laying on the ground.

A simple YouTube search shows that - there are even videos from different angles, made by different people.

These police officers as well as the responsible officials behind them should be fired. They were the biggest threat in that room.

So a guy jumping up and down and trying to resist arrest is not a threat? Anywhere else he would be tackled for his actions towards the officers and taken down much more severly.

I have watch probably four different angle of videos and all showing them handling this situation fine.
They gave him warnings to hurry up with his questions, the official wanted him out (This is the *officials* call not the officers), they restrained him in an escort manner, he resisted many times and finally was taken to the ground where he was more controllable. He was still kicking, elbowing officers, etc. so they had to use non-lethal force to control him and be able to remove him.

Also, the student was even quoted saying they were "just doing there jobs."
That right there shows what they did, under his expectations (which is the most important one), was fine on the handling of the situation.
And finally, no the officers were no threat, why do you keep saying this?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Sörnäinen 

These police officers as well as the responsible officials behind them should be fired. They were the biggest threat in that room.

The threat that they might use nonviolent means to subdue someone who's resisting? Oh, the HORROR!

[driven]

Originally Posted by theDreamer 

So a guy jumping up and down and trying to resist arrest is not a threat? Anywhere else he would be tackled for his actions towards the officers and taken down much more severly.

I have watch probably four different angle of videos and all showing them handling this situation fine.
They gave him warnings to hurry up with his questions, the official wanted him out (This is the *officials* call not the officers), they restrained him in an escort manner, he resisted many times and finally was taken to the ground where he was more controllable. He was still kicking, elbowing officers, etc. so they had to use non-lethal force to control him and be able to remove him.

Also, the student was even quoted saying they were "just doing there jobs."
That right there shows what they did, under his expectations (which is the most important one), was fine on the handling of the situation.
And finally, no the officers were no threat, why do you keep saying this?

Even though I think it could have been handled entirely without confrontation (shut off his mike and ignore him would have worked brilliantly), the idea to tackle him would have been preferable to a tazer.

[Chuckit]

I think of the two options, a taser is less likely to break any bones. Hurts more in the short term, but less damaging in the long run.

[driven]

Regarding the less lethal part, check out this quote. (No opinion by me here, just food for thought.)

Less lethal?

For years, Tasers have been criticized by many who say the devices are more deadly than alternatives such as beanbag guns and pepper spray, and should be avoided until definitive research has been completed.

As of now, no independent, national study has been done on the deadly risks of Tasers, according to Dori Dinsmore, Midwest director for Amnesty International, a non-governmental organization that promotes human rights.

Since they began their research in 2001, Amnesty International has confirmed 245 Taser-related deaths, she said.

The organization refers to them as "Taser-related," meaning a Taser had been used in the course of a person dying - but was not necessarily the cause of death.

Source:
County police getting Tasers | Maryland Gazette (HometownGlenBurnie.com)

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by subego 

That's what I'm saying. They made the decision after finding 10 pairs of hands and feet, plus 5 nightsticks, unable to resolve the situation.

This means they suck as cops.

Monkeys. In. Uniforms.

V

[driven]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I think of the two options, a taser is less likely to break any bones. Hurts more in the short term, but less damaging in the long run.

Certainly, if 6 cops couldn't subdue him without breaking bones then they are more inept then they have already shown themselves to be.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by theDreamer 

Who ever said he was a threat to the officers?
~Students
~Senator
~Officials who were running the event
~Press

Yes the officers could handle him, and they did. He was a "threat" to others and an unknown threat on what he may/may not do.

Only a spineless overprotected menstruating wuss would think that loser was a personal threat to him.



V

[Sörnäinen]

Originally Posted by theDreamer 

So a guy jumping up and down and trying to resist arrest is not a threat? Anywhere else he would be tackled for his actions towards the officers and taken down much more severly.

Yeah, on a rugby field that might be true.
Well, it´s good you are not a police officer, you would probably overreact the same.

As i described above - that guy could have been controlled without all that effort.

And a guy jumping up and down, trying to resist arrest is not a threat. He is funny, perhaps. Someone who is trained can handle that alone, probably. With 4 officers, there is no taser needed. Period.

(And i do know what i am talking about. Things like that are part of my job.)

[Chuckit]

I've known a lot of security guards, and none of them have been able to subdue someone without any kind of physical force. Care to share the secret?

[driven]

It's been mentioned about a dozen times in this thread.

[Sörnäinen]

Originally Posted by driven 

It's been mentioned about a dozen times in this thread.

I did even describe it quite detailed here:
http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...2/#post3487350

And there is a BIG point: Physical force is not black and white.
There are a LOT of shades of grey. Tasering someone who is already on the ground is clearly overdone.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Sörnäinen 

I did even describe it quite detailed here:
http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...2/#post3487350

And there is a BIG point: Physical force is not black and white.
There are a LOT of shades of grey. Tasering someone who is already on the ground is clearly overdone.

Your solution involves potentially breaking the guy's arm. If safely incapacitating somebody is clearly overdone, what do you call that?

[Sörnäinen]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Your solution involves potentially breaking the guy's arm. If safely incapacitating somebody is clearly overdone, what do you call that?

Eeeehm. No, it doesn´t.
If a lock doesn´t work, you can let it go before anything breaks.
But it DOES include some training, yes.

Watching those officers moving their quite fatty bellies i assume they probably are unable to do anything but pulling the trigger of a taser.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally Posted by driven 

Regarding the less lethal part, check out this quote. (No opinion by me here, just food for thought.)

Again, the word Taser is being thrown around a lot without distinguishing the fact that the unit was not used at the full power setting that is dispersed when it is shot out as a projectile.
In this case it was used as a stun gun which is not the same setting.

[brassplayersrock²]

what it have been better if they just used a cattle prod?

Alex

[driven]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

what it have been better if they just used a cattle prod?

Alex

Drive stun is the same thing, no?

[driven]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious 

Again, the word Taser is being thrown around a lot without distinguishing the fact that the unit was not used at the full power setting that is dispersed when it is shot out as a projectile.
In this case it was used as a stun gun which is not the same setting.

Sergio Galvan, a 35 year old man was killed by the stun setting in 2006. He was stunned 3 times ... he died due to a "pre-existing" condition.

Perhaps it's a safe weapon if the police ask for a medical history first.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by driven 

Sergio Galvan, a 35 year old man was killed by the stun setting in 2006. He was stunned 3 times ... he died due to a "pre-existing" condition.

Perhaps it's a safe weapon if the police ask for a medical history first.

For Pete's sake, you could say that about anything. People die from preexisting conditions just by being exposed to peanuts. That is not a valid argument. Maybe the fella suffered from brittle bone syndrome and grabbing him could have been deadly!

[brassplayersrock²]

i was doing a joke driven. But, since you asked, according to wiki, drive stun and a cattle prod are in fact pretty much the same thing, just in different forms. Drive stun is used without the barbs being shot out, so the shocking instrument has to be right on the victim like a cattle prod if I understood the article correctly.

Electroshock weapon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Alex

[subego]

Originally Posted by Sörnäinen 

I did even describe it quite detailed here:
http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...2/#post3487350

And there is a BIG point: Physical force is not black and white.
There are a LOT of shades of grey. Tasering someone who is already on the ground is clearly overdone.

Did you check out the incident report? They did many of the things you mention within the limit of practicality.

Also, after reading the report, I realized I had made some incorrect assumptions, which I think you are making as well.

Both of us assumed the tasering was a result of the cops letting things get out of control. Reading the report, I get the distinct impression that tasering a resister is UF's standard procedure. I base this on how all the cops reach for their tasers almost immediately, and make no attempt to justify that. It's not even a question in these people's minds whether they were going by the book.

If (and obviously only if) this is UF's procedure, this puts the way the cops behaved in a different perspective. The situation had escalated to where a taser was an appropriate use of force the moment he started resisting. From that point, there is no reason for them to display the finesse you describe as they can just zap him. Which they did, and would have done so earlier if the Sergeant's taser hadn't failed to work.

If there's a problem here, I think it may be one of UF procedures. It seems like the cops were "following orders".

[Sörnäinen]

Originally Posted by subego 

Did you check out the incident report? They did many of the things you mention within the limit of practicality.

It maybe they were following orders (watching the videos of the incident, i clearly see that they did, it seems they are really waiting for a "go" from someone who was in charge before they started their nonsense).

But they did literally nothing of what i mentioned.
It all starts with the fact that they instantly touched that guy. That is the straight way in escalation. They from the beginning went the way to pushing things to MORE noise instead of reducing it.

Really, there are a lot of videos of the incident. It seems those people had not the slightest idea of how to control a not-obeying person. They were focused on their tasers.

By the way: That videos show clearly that we are right to teach anyone: Never rely on a weapon. It may fall from your hands or just disfunction while you depend on it. You should know more than just using that, you NEED more knowledge and alternatives, and weapons always put any conflict to a HIGHER level, which is not helpful most of the time.

Sorry, but there is no excuse for these amateurs.



PS: "They just followed orders" is a sentence that i really dislike to hear. I am german, and THAT sentence led to the worst situations of german history.

[theDreamer]

It all starts with the fact that they instantly touched that guy

I normally do not respond like this, but:

WRONG WRONG WRONG

Read the report, they were motioned by the staff of the event, they repeatedly informed the student he needed to get to the point, and ask his question (or questions as he wanted to break the rules).

[Sörnäinen]

Originally Posted by theDreamer 

I normally do not respond like this, but:

WRONG WRONG WRONG

Read the report, they were motioned by the staff of the event, they repeatedly informed the student he needed to get to the point, and ask his question (or questions as he wanted to break the rules).

I saw the videos.
The student was interrupted while he was talking, then they cut of his microphone, and from that moment the officers´ job started. And they started it with grapping the guy.

Sorry - until that moment the only "crime" he committed was talking too long and not what the organizers wanted to hear. That is not any crime, and Kerry even wanted to answer the questions. The staff of the event made the officers push the guy away from the microphone, and then they escalated the situation quite quick.

The fact that this guy said things they didn´t want to hear is no reason to taser anyone. The police officers produced the situation by their stupid approach.