[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

They can't screw with your check -- that's against the law.

Just leave if things are so bad, making sure you have documentation of your time worked so you can make sure you're paid the proper amount. Do you click in with a time card by any chance?

Well that is the tricky part.

I have worked here a year full time/vacation/sick days etc but they always paid me by check and without deducting taxes. I was left to do that all on my own which I do.

At any rate the are also switching over to direct deposit with the taxes etc already deducted but I am not due to get paid until 1 week after my last day. That is what is worrying me though as on paper it looks like I was contract work paid by company check and not officially on a payroll. They also haven't ask me yet for the typical information for direct deposits like SIN and bank number.

So my nightmare is if they claim I didn't work these past 2 weeks as revenge for quitting with 1 week notice. Honestly though I don't think its worth it for them to try that though as if I take them to small claims court for the last check it will dig up too much dirty laundry on their payment methods to all the employees in the past. Not to mention their legal fee's would cost more than the salary.

[Yose]

Originally Posted by torsoboy 

Bzzzt! Wrong. They don't "owe" you anything if you have quit. I think you are mixing business policy with what you think is business law or something. At the place I work on the couple of occasions that a person has given their two weeks and then been asked to leave immediately they receive no compensation, and I personally don't think they should have either. They quit, it is up to the company to handle them anyway they choose at that point.

According to the Employment Standards Act in Ontario, they do. Hit your "buzzer" as much as you like, employees and employers have responsibilities to each other. At least in this part of the civilized world.

Giving notice and subsequently being dismissed, is different than quitting and walking out. Quitting and walking out is not as simple as it sounds either, a former employee can still be responsible to their former employer in a number of ways.

[RAILhead]

Not here in the good ol' US of A. If you quit on me, I don't owe you crap.

[Yose]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Not here in the good ol' US of A. If you quit on me, I don't owe you crap.

That's interesting Railhead. Though for the OP who appears to reside in Ontario… most likely irrelevant.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Yose 

Quitting and walking out is not as simple as it sounds either, a former employee can still be responsible to their former employer in a number of ways.

Huh? How so?

Almost everyone I know who quits in my field just walks out or stops coming into work.

[Yose]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Huh? How so?

Almost everyone I know who quits in my field just walks out or stops coming into work.

Well maybe thats fine for your field and what you do. In other situations where an employee has access to sensitive info; Could they then quit and startup a competitive business, or work for a competitor? That employee might have fiduciary responsibilities to their former employer.

*PS, I'm not a lawyer or anything, I had to look into employment law so I knew what I needed to know for my own business.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Yose 

Well maybe thats fine for your field and what you do. If

If....?

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Yose 

Well maybe thats fine for your field and what you do. In other situations where an employee has access to sensitive info; Could they then quit and startup a competitive business, or work for a competitor? That employee might have fiduciary responsibilities to their former employer.

There is no law saying you can't work for the competitor UNLESS you take company secrets with you.

Some employers put that in your contract but I just cross it out and say I can't agree to not work for competition as it is my livelihood, plus they could never enforce it.

[macroy]

Sounds like you may need to do some research for your particular jurisdiction. Its pretty obvious the laws and even policies are different between locations and companies. Your best bet would be to look at your employee manual - there should be an exit process/procedure.

I don't think anyone disagrees that by law, you are owed for work rendered. However "severance" pay is another story - which is your original question. Thus, if you say you are terminating your employment two week from today... and then you don't come back tomorrow... here in the states, they are not obligated to pay you for those two week (hey, you didn't work them). By the same token, if they dismiss you and walk you off the premises today, they do not owe you a severance by law. However, some companies will still give you severance per their own policy. In Ontario, it may be different (as some have indicated).

And yes, you do have an obligation to your former employer with regards to trade secrets and competitors IF you signed a NDA or NCA.... If you didn't, then you have no obligation.

In your case, it sounds like you have no plan on going back.. so if you don't feel like giving them two more weeks.. you don't have to "by law". Its more of a courtesy. Them saying that you HAVE to give them two weeks is more of a plea than a legal warning. Again, I'm basing all of this on the local laws where I'm from..... and I am definitely not a lawyer.

Again, the warnings against what you are looking to do is more of a "burning the bridge" thing.... And I would agree with that. you never burn a bridge. Its a small world... I've seen that bite someone in more than one occasion.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Well things took a fun turn of events tonight. The boss told me I CANNOT give 5 days notice and I have to work the 2 weeks as they are screwed without me. He was also quick to jump to "your not full time you're contract" which is not true but it looks it on paper. He also said that if I just walked out that he wouldn't pay me my last 7 days I did work.

I told him that I don't like him making implications like that so I will not work another day or the remainder of the two weeks unless we write out a contract saying how many days I am working, at what pay, for how many hours a day and on what days I will get my checks.

He seemed fine with that so we will sort it out tomorrow.

All I know with him telling me he will play the "you're contact and not full time card" I don't trust him anymore which is why I want the contract.

I also have to be clear that he can't dump 1 month of work on me and expect it done in the 8 days I have left. I'm working 8 hours a day till next friday and anything that isn't done has to be picked up by whatever poor soul they hire.

Sound good?

[torsoboy]

Originally Posted by Yose 

According to the Employment Standards Act in Ontario, they do. Hit your "buzzer" as much as you like, employees and employers have responsibilities to each other. At least in this part of the civilized world.

Giving notice and subsequently being dismissed, is different than quitting and walking out. Quitting and walking out is not as simple as it sounds either, a former employee can still be responsible to their former employer in a number of ways.

Sorry about that... I was talking about the USA.

[Yose]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Well things took a fun turn of events tonight. The boss told me I CANNOT give 5 days notice and I have to work the 2 weeks as they are screwed without me. He was also quick to jump to "your not full time you're contract" which is not true but it looks it on paper. He also said that if I just walked out that he wouldn't pay me my last 7 days I did work.

I told him that I don't like him making implications like that so I will not work another day or the remainder of the two weeks unless we write out a contract saying how many days I am working, at what pay, for how many hours a day and on what days I will get my checks.

He seemed fine with that so we will sort it out tomorrow.

All I know with him telling me he will play the "you're contact and not full time card" I don't trust him anymore which is why I want the contract.

I also have to be clear that he can't dump 1 month of work on me and expect it done in the 8 days I have left. I'm working 8 hours a day till next friday and anything that isn't done has to be picked up by whatever poor soul they hire.

Sound good?

So, how exactly did you come into this job in the first place? What were the conditions of your employment?

[Yose]

Originally Posted by torsoboy 

Sorry about that... I was talking about the USA.

No worries, and I was just looking through one of my texts and I noticed it makes note of the distinction between your employment "at will" system and our ESA.

Different strokes for different folks I guess?

[peeb]

It's rarely a good idea to burn bridges and behave like an ass - even if you are sure you will get away with it, you'd be surprised how a reputation for that sort of thing spreads - it's a small world.

[andi*pandi]

he sounds like a piece of work. you're not obligated at all, and he's trying to blackmail you into staying. I hope you negotiate the extra week at a higher salary.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Well things took a fun turn of events tonight. The boss told me I CANNOT give 5 days notice and I have to work the 2 weeks as they are screwed without me. He was also quick to jump to "your not full time you're contract" which is not true but it looks it on paper. He also said that if I just walked out that he wouldn't pay me my last 7 days I did work.

I told him that I don't like him making implications like that so I will not work another day or the remainder of the two weeks unless we write out a contract saying how many days I am working, at what pay, for how many hours a day and on what days I will get my checks.

He seemed fine with that so we will sort it out tomorrow.

All I know with him telling me he will play the "you're contact and not full time card" I don't trust him anymore which is why I want the contract.

I also have to be clear that he can't dump 1 month of work on me and expect it done in the 8 days I have left. I'm working 8 hours a day till next friday and anything that isn't done has to be picked up by whatever poor soul they hire.

Sound good?

Dude, stand up for yourself! You're totally getting screwed. WHY DON'T PEOPLE READ THE PERSONNEL MANUALS?!?! Have you talked to the HR Dept.? Sounds to me like he's making threats based on "scary words" that aren't true -- but the handbook and HR would know.

But, you've already given-in, so you're pretty much screwed.

Just note that NO employer can legally withhold earnings from an employee.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Just note that NO employer can legally withhold earnings from an employee.

True, but I think the idea of the threat is making it difficult or time-consiming to collect those earnings.

[RAILhead]

You can't withhold payment -- that not only means you must pay, it also means you must pay on time.

[Dakar²]

Ok, let me rephrase:

I think the idea of the threat is to make it appear that it's going to be difficult or time-consiming to collect those earnings.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Dude, stand up for yourself! You're totally getting screwed.

Trust me I am standing up for myself.

The problem is he is the owner and HR etc. We don't have a "handbook" as it were and as I said no real contract as I have been getting paid by check in full every 2 weeks. On paper I am contract but I get full time privileges and work as a FT employee. Payment hasn't been a problem for the past year.

At any rate he did blackmail me be saying if I walk out I wouldn't get paid for the 7 days I have worked so far.

I could walk out and lose 7 days pay, take him to court, report him to the BBB etc. It is a pain so I rather play along to a point and nail out a contract today stating what dates I am working till, when I will get paid and for how many hours a day.

The only thing I have to watch out for is if he dumps 1 month of work on me and wants it done in a week and if I can't get it done in time says he is not paying me.

I'll know how things go when he gets in.

[kmkkid]

In Canada severance pay is only mandatory in lieu of proper notice. The labour laws spell this out quite clearly. For instance, I believe if you've worked there for six months you are required to have 1 weeks notice of loss of job, or they must pay you severance. Unfortunately for you analogue, quitting a job doesn't earn you severance pay.


Length of Employment: Notice Required

Less than 3 months None
3 months but less than 1 year 1 week
1 year but less than 3 years 2 weeks
3 years but less than 4 years 3 weeks
4 years but less than 5 years 4 weeks
5 years but less than 6 years 5 weeks
6 years but less than 7 years 6 weeks
7 years but less than 8 years 7 weeks
8 years or more 8 weeks



*edit* posted the correct figures

[analogue SPRINKLES]

At this point I don't even care about severance. I just want to be sure I get paid for the time I've worked here.

[andi*pandi]

it doesn't sound good. I wouldn't trust your boss as far as I could throw him.

[Gossamer]

Ed Rooney: I don't trust this kid any further than I can throw him.
Grace: Well, with your bad knee Ed, you shouldn't throw anybody... Its true

[Dakar²]

Best Rainy Day Movie.

[Yose]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Trust me I am standing up for myself.

The problem is he is the owner and HR etc. We don't have a "handbook" as it were and as I said no real contract as I have been getting paid by check in full every 2 weeks. On paper I am contract but I get full time privileges and work as a FT employee. Payment hasn't been a problem for the past year.

At any rate he did blackmail me be saying if I walk out I wouldn't get paid for the 7 days I have worked so far.

I could walk out and lose 7 days pay, take him to court, report him to the BBB etc. It is a pain so I rather play along to a point and nail out a contract today stating what dates I am working till, when I will get paid and for how many hours a day.

The only thing I have to watch out for is if he dumps 1 month of work on me and wants it done in a week and if I can't get it done in time says he is not paying me.

I'll know how things go when he gets in.

This stuff really gets under my skin. I've worked before as an Independent Contractor to various corporations and more often than not, their "definition" doesn't hold up to what a contractor is.

Regardless of what your boss says, there are a number of tests that have evolved through common law that are used to determine whether someone is a independent contractor or an employee.

1. A Control test: Does your employeer control your work, as in where it's done, when, and how? Are you free to hire someone else to do the work in your stead? Are you permitted to have other clients you can perform this same task for? Do you have someone you must report do during the workday? If you don't have control over yourself, you're most likely an employee.

2. Risk test: Do you bear the burden of any financial risk or loss of profit? For example, do you get less pay if you're sitting around diddlin' around at work or do you clock in, clock out, get paid regardless. If it's the latter, you're probably an employee.

3. Organization test: Are the services you are rendering to the employer integral to their business? If you're just producing some brochures or updating their website, most likey you could be considered a contractor, unless of course it was a design house.

4. Tools test: Do you provide your own equipment? If you do it weighs in favour you are a contractor. (the least significant of tests)

5. Durability and exclusivity of a relationship test. When you perform work over a long period of time ( a year, perhaps ? )and have no other clients, the courts are more likely to find in favour of an employment relationship vs. independent contractor relationship.

**The above is paraphrased from my texts.

Granted, we're talking about 2 weeks worth of work here. But the fact remains that you could goto the tribunal and claim that you were an employee. This has ramifications to your former employer of having to pay CPP, Vacation pay (4%), etc. Plus, it doesn't look good for them. Or you could sue in small claims, but it's one or the other.

My last formal contract with a large corporation was pretty well defined, it had a clause where either party could end the contract agreement with 1 weeks notice without cause. But even with that contract being so well defined, the way the manager who I was contracted behaved, I could have argued that I was in fact an employee. It's the Ministry of Labour that deals with and enforces that stuff, not the client/employers HR department.

If you give 2 weeks notice, as an employee, and they fire you on the spot, you get pay in lieu of notice (2 weeks in your case). It's just that simple. If he claims you're a contractor, let the Ministry of Labour deal with it. It's a lot more messy for him than it is for you. (If you gave 1 weeks notice, and they fire you, only expect 1 weeks pay in lieu of notice). Stick to your original notice, if they want you to work for that time, do so, if they don't and fire you, make it clear you want pay in lieu of notice as per the ESA. File a claim if they don't comply.

Goto this website: How to File a Claim--ES Fact Sheet | Ontario Ministry of Labour

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

it doesn't sound good. I wouldn't trust your boss as far as I could throw him.

True, but i have him by the balls. If I walk today I might lose 7 days pay which I will then take him to court, report it to the BBB and his ILLEGAL payment practices to everyone for at least a year will come up.

Not to mention he will have nobody to do all this work he needs for the next week and a half and lose thousands because of it.

If I sort things out on paper with him and he still doesn't pay court will be even easier for me.

It is in his best interest to keep me for another 8 days, pay me everything he owes me and neither one of us have to see each other again.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Well just an update I tried to talk to him the second he walked in but he said he was busy. I said I think it is in both our interests to clear this matter up quickly and he replied saying "I will not tell you again, I will meet with you when I have time."

He did have enough time however to ask me what point I was at with the current work and when it would be done.

I will not bug him anymore but if he doesn't come talk to me on his own by 6pm I will leave and not come back as at least I tried but he didn't have 2 minutes to spare for something as vital as this.

[RAILhead]

What type of work are you doing? What type of company?

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

What type of work are you doing? What type of company?

Graphic/web design at an online marketing company.

P.S. still no effort to talk to me yet even though he is in the office all day and had no meetings.

[Mastrap]

The working day's coming to an end. Any news?

[Yose]

Sounds like the person I interned for so many years ago. He might want to wait for the office to be quieter.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

The working day's coming to an end. Any news?

Nope, but he got 1 hour 15 min or I am out.

He isn't waiting for things to quite down, we had a loud discussion last night and he can easily bring me into his office.

He just wants me working away and stalling as much as he can. It will cost him.

[Dakar²]

Yep, definitely stalling, hoping he can get you to keep coming back out of guilt or loyalty or something.

[andi*pandi]

hoping he can get you to finish all your work and then fire you.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

hoping he can get you to finish all your work and then fire you.

Yup, exactly. Hope he doesn't think I am sitting here for 8 hours waiting for a 2 min conversation and working while i wait to sort out our dilemma.

Me as the only designer leaving would cost them tens of thousands of dollars till they find a new one so I can't believe he would be this stupid. Baffling.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

For those interested this is the conversation we had on ICQ in the office the HE I walked in at 11:48 am

Changed the names...

Me
11:48
hey Boss can I come over for a minute so we can finish our discussion from yesterday?

Boss
11:52
I have a meeting , afterwards we can

Me
11:52
about what time?

Boss
11:53
I'm not sure, whenever I'm free

Me
11:53
well I think you agree it is important for both of us to sort it out. It shouldn't take more than a couple minutes

Boss
11:53
I'm not going to say this again, I have a meeting and will meet with you when I have adequate time

Me
11:54
will it be today?

Boss
11:54
of course

Me
11:54
than an approximate time is all I need and I am fine

Boss
11:55
when I have time

(For the record he has no in office meeting nor went to one. He also has not been on the phone more than 20 min total today as I can hear when he is.)

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Well no word from him at all. I'm walking.

Thanks for the advice everyone!

[torsoboy]

So did you "walk"? Any intentions of going back?

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by torsoboy 

So did you "walk"? Any intentions of going back?

Yup I sure did. And no way in hell am I going back. I will email him tomorrow morning expressing my puzzlement and disappointment that he couldn't devote a max of 2 minutes to talk to me on this matter. I'll say my Dr. needed to know by 6pm if I was canceling my surgery next week and since 8 hours of us being together in the office doesn't give him enough time to discuss the matter with me is totally bewildering.

[climber]

When he refuses to pay you, do not use the BBB as a threat. Instead tell him failure to pay an employee is a violation of state law and you will file appropriate charges . You will also be seeking civil damages through your attorney.

[torsoboy]

let us know what his response is to your email. interesting story.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by climber 

When he refuses to pay you, do not use the BBB as a threat. Instead tell him failure to pay an employee is a violation of state law and you will file appropriate charges . You will also be seeking civil damages through your attorney.

Ya I am going to email him in a bit.

Actually the BBB isn't quite as good in Canada as it is in the US from what I know.

But yes, I will tell him that what he is doing is ILLEGAL if he doesn't pay.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Well so just like I thought I got a letter back from the boss saying he contacted his lawyers and all further correspondence should be sent to his lawyers etc.

What he thinks he got legal grounds on me for is baffling. I think the angle he is going for is when I sent him my resignation letter I said I would work till friday and I didn't end up doing that.

Can't see how that will work out.

[Dakarʒ]

Yeah, keep us advised. It still sounds like he's trying to manipulate you rather than making any effort to do what he says.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Yeah, keep us advised. It still sounds like he's trying to manipulate you rather than making any effort to do what he says.

He is just trying to scare me into not coming after him for the money. He would be incredible stupid to come after ME in court as his payroll and tax history would come up and that would be way way worse for him than me.

[andi*pandi]

in a way he's already won, because you're going to have to deal with him longer than the week extra he wanted you to work... but who knows if he ever intended to pay you at all. Hope all your papers are in order. Is there anyone else at the company who would testify/confirm what you're saying?

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

in a way he's already won, because you're going to have to deal with him longer than the week extra he wanted you to work...

Only if you believe he's gonna follow through.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

in a way he's already won, because you're going to have to deal with him longer than the week extra he wanted you to work... but who knows if he ever intended to pay you at all. Hope all your papers are in order. Is there anyone else at the company who would testify/confirm what you're saying?

Well I don't want to drag anyone into it. But he didn't win. I know he might lose thousands and thousands of bucks over the next few days because he has nobody to do all the work.

I got tons of proof and records of me working there on those days, he doesn't have anything on me.

Not to mention even just talking to his lawyer will cost him $100 and any letters or exchanges will cost him more.

[Monique]

If you quit and do not work the 2 weeks notice, they will not pay you.

They are under the obligation of paying you those 2 weeks if they fire you.

When I quit Telus, I still had some vacation time and received a salary. I work 1 month before I received some money with my new job.