[oLIVe]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
I'm sorry if I'm strong in my defence of rationality but when 16 people have voted they think Jews run the planet and when this lil-babykitten plays the decietful and cunning wench then something needs to be tackled. There's no sense in dillydallying around the bush.

-We got assholes in the West making money from other people's resources while parading themselves as 'compassionate'.

-We got the Arab world which is even more hypocritical and racist and fail to look at themselves.

I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. I don't like this 'We Muslims are victims' game. In the west we don't play victim, we punish our leaders, we rebel, we make our voices heard more against our own leaders than we do against bloody Bin Ladin or Saddam. When Bush bombs Iraq we protest.

Now when are we going to see the Arab world acknowledge the suffering they caused when Islamic armies conquered and divided foreign lands and persecuted religious minorities? When are we going to see Arabs protest en masse against their own tyrants instead of throwing parties when terrorists crash planes into buildings?

It's open hypocrisy. When they protest, when they release themselves from superstitious beliefs and when they embrace Jews and others as brothers and not infidels or unbelievers then maybe they'll understand how mob mentality kept them in the dark and how it created the circumstances they live in. It wasn't Jews who made them what they are. they could be great, really great. But they put more effort into jihad than they do into opening their minds.

Why do you taint all muslims with the same brush? Of course there are voices against Bin Ladin and Saddam!It was not only non-muslims who hated him it was also muslims that suffered under his rule that hated him.Did you not see the mass protests against the 9/11 attack that took place in Iran?.You say that Islam should embrace jews and others, should not the others and jews do the same to Islam?
If Islam is such a superstitiouse faith which incites racism then why does the faith continue grow?
I think you should stop asking others to open their minds and start opening yours! Its people with such high opinions like yours that doesnt make things any better but just increases the divide and incites more anger!

[Uday's Carcass]

oh ho ho, that left you wide open for a witty one-liner. I'll try my hand.

Originally posted by oLIVe:
If Islam is such a superstitiouse faith which incites racism then why does the faith continue grow?

So does cancer. Your point?

Harsh jokes aside, growth has nothing to do with validating a religion.

[RooneyX]

Can we bash Scientology now? I've had enough Islamophobia for two days

[pooka]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Can we bash Scientology now? I've had enough Islamophobia for two days

Not if you value your life. Hell, I don't even **** with scientologists.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
I'm sorry if I'm strong in my defence of rationality but when 16 people have voted they think Jews run the planet and when this lil-babykitten plays the decietful and cunning wench then something needs to be tackled. There's no sense in dillydallying around the bush.

-We got assholes in the West making money from other people's resources while parading themselves as 'compassionate'.

-We got the Arab world which is even more hypocritical and racist and fail to look at themselves.

I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. I don't like this 'We Muslims are victims' game. In the west we don't play victim, we punish our leaders, we rebel, we make our voices heard more against our own leaders than we do against bloody Bin Ladin or Saddam. When Bush bombs Iraq we protest.

Now when are we going to see the Arab world acknowledge the suffering they caused when Islamic armies conquered and divided foreign lands and persecuted religious minorities? When are we going to see Arabs protest en masse against their own tyrants instead of throwing parties when terrorists crash planes into buildings?

It's open hypocrisy. When they protest, when they release themselves from superstitious beliefs and when they embrace Jews and others as brothers and not infidels or unbelievers then maybe they'll understand how mob mentality kept them in the dark and how it created the circumstances they live in. It wasn't Jews who made them what they are. they could be great, really great. But they put more effort into jihad than they do into opening their minds.

This is bordering on a *SMACKDOWN*.

[christ]

Originally posted by WinsOBoogi:
...Get over it, people We're pretty damned harmless.

Aah - but you would say that, now wouldn't you.

Trying to lull the world into a false sense of security.

[christ]

To attempt a bit of seriosity, midst all this persiflage:

Just look at the numbers. There are not very many Jews, in the scheme of things, but they do figure prominently in important places. Is this just perception, or is there something to it?

I don't have any of these numbers to hand, and I'm too lazy to look them up, but take an example:

In the US, what proportion of the population is Jewish - and what proportion of the Administration is Jewish (either persuasion, Bush or Clinton). What are the equivalent numbers for, say, 'Catholic', or 'Muslim' proportions?

What about outside the administration, in a different field, say - banking?

Advertising?

Big business?

Is it only perception?

Just asking.

[perryp]

Originally posted by christ:
Is this just perception, or is there something to it?...In the US, what proportion of the population is Jewish - and what proportion of the Administration is Jewish

Jews make up 2 to 3 percent of the US population. Jews make up 0.25% of the world population - a quarter of one percent.

The US is the most powerful nation on Earth. Jews form a majority of the neoconservative ideologues that create Bush's foreign and domestic policy.
Of the four leading Democrat candidates for President (Dean, Clark, Lieberman, Kerry) 100% are either Jews, married to Jews or have Jewish ancestry. Jews contribute half of donations to Democrat candiates (source). According to statistics here, Jews make up
76% of 'Most Influential Intellectuals'
60% of 'Top Hollywood Positions'
60% of Yale Grad Students
30% of Supreme Court Law Clerks

So I think it's fair to say that Jews, in proportion to their numbers, rule the world by proxy. The heightened sensitivity to this fact - i.e people being called antisemitic for talking about this - is ironic proof of the fact.

The question shouldn't be 'do Jews rule the world by proxy?', because the answer is obviously Yes. The question should be 'why are Jews able to rule the world by proxy?'.

The answer is that Jews, for reasons both genetic and cultural, are far more intelligent than any other ethnic group - particularly in verbal intelligence. Secondly, Jews have for centuries thrived by milking the economic opportunities presented to them by the societies in which they live. In fact they have, since the Middle Ages, been kicked out of many countries for doing this rather too successfully. Thirdly, like any tribe or ethnic group, they stick together.

So the Malaysian Prime Minister is right - Jews rule by proxy because they use their brains (hardly an insult) - and Muslims would be better off using their brains too.

[eklipse]

Excellent first post, perryp

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by christ:


What about outside the administration, in a different field, say - banking?

Advertising?

Big business?

Is it only perception?

Just asking.

Yes, it is only perception. The ol' conspiracy theory about the Jewish bankers never holds water. Anyone can be a banker and in most cases bankers are your typical white protestants. I hate the banking system.

Anyone can be a big businessman. And being a big businessman doesn't make your life easier than being a little businessman.

Lil'Allah's Kitten thinks Jews have influence in certain fields. Wow, so do Muslims. The point is people get jealous and start all sorts of bullcrappy conspiracy theories.

[macvillage.net]

To expand on that. Jewish people have a historical tradition of valuing skills. Historically, Jewish people have held many skilled positions in society.

Despite what Hitler wanted people to think, the Jews actually kept the German economy going. There were literally thousands of Jewish teachers, carpenters, writers, among other skills.

Because of this historical tradition to value such skills... it has existed for generations.

Combined with the insecurity of recent times, you have an entire group of people who value skills useful to society, and ignore people who lack them.

Any group, who *socially* required you be successful to be "in" the group, is destined for success.

That is why many Jewish children feel preasured to be a Lawyer or a Doctor. Not just the traditional "to be like my father"... but to be considered socially successful enough.

Take a group that has this trait (which has it's good, and it's obvious bad)

Combine that with the idea that all Germans are guilty of murdering Jewish people (even if your of German decent and were born yesterday)... and you get that resentment.

That resentment opens the door for even more success. Allowing them to "rule by proxy"

So perryp is completely right. They do rule by proxy for using their brains.

The real complaint is that they tend to have a complete disregard for the welfare of others in the process. Including their own people, as there are many Jewish people, alienated from their own family because they weren't smart enough. Their family, rather than "look bad" disowns them. This happens in other groups as well (some Christian groups do this too)... but is somewhat prodominant in Jewish communities. Living in a somewhat Jewish community, I know several people, whose parents were in the above sinerio. Kicked out of the family, because they left lawschool to go towards a career path that truly interested them... even if it wasn't as honorable, or prestigous. Sad. It's not like they are bad people... just didn't like the idea of being a lawyer. Perfer to own a landscaping business, or persue an interest in music, etc.

Determination of any group leads to success.

But in all cases, such determination leaves the weak behind... the question is, how ethical it is? Should the strong show compasion for the weak? Or overpower them to make way for progress?

BTW: Jews don't control the media. Because of the success rate, they have a tendency to be in the news... but don't control it. Far from control it.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Lil'Allah's Kitten

My user name is 'lil'babykitten'
Use it, or don't use it at all.

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
My user name is 'lil'babykitten'
Use it, or don't use it at all.

Only if you tell me what you think about Muhammed murdering Jewish tribes because they didn't believe him.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Only if you tell me what you think about Muhammed murdering Jewish tribes because they didn't believe him.

How about the more recent inverse?


Stop derailign the discussion.

Start a new one.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Only if you tell me what you think about Muhammed murdering Jewish tribes because they didn't believe him.

Only if you can prove that Muhammed (pbuh) 'murdered Jewish tribes because they didn't believe him.'

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Only if you can prove that Muhammed (pbuh) 'murdered Jewish tribes because they didn't believe him.'

Well, that would be easy but you'd say vast tracts of texts are mistranslated.

I'm still waiting for a single person to prove that!

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Well, that would be easy but you'd say vast tracts of texts are mistranslated.

I'm still waiting for a single person to prove that!

try

[christ]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Yes, it is only perception. The ol' conspiracy theory about the Jewish bankers never holds water. Anyone can be a banker and in most cases bankers are your typical white protestants. I hate the banking system.

Anyone can be a big businessman. And being a big businessman doesn't make your life easier than being a little businessman.

[ms] Kitten thinks Jews have influence in certain fields. Wow, so do Muslims. The point is people get jealous and start all sorts of bullcrappy conspiracy theories.

Numbers?

Remember - you are trying to disprove a perception. perry's (first) post, above, provided numbers, which you didn't redress. Your only purposes appear to be to state unsupported suppositions as fact, and to insult others that don't hold your world view. Why don;t you belie appearances, and post something useful?

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by christ:
Numbers?

Remember - you are trying to disprove a perception. perry's (first) post, above, provided numbers, which you didn't redress. Your only purposes appear to be to state unsupported suppositions as fact, and to insult others that don't hold your world view. Why don;t you belie appearances, and post something useful?

Oh.

What do you want numbers for btw?

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
try

Will do as soon as my hangover subsides. Bismillah.

[Taliesin]

RooneyX,

I will answer you:

What happened was this. At the beginning of the prophecy of Muhammad, he made himself a lot of enemies in Mekka, his hometown, because he outrightly attacked the polytheism belief by saying that there is only one God and whoever believes otherwise would land in hell, if that one doesn't change his belief before he dies.

Some people in Mekka believed him, the majority didn't believe him and wanted to murder him. But he was under the protection of his uncle, who is the leader of a very mighty tribe in Mekka, so killing Muhammad wasn't possible. At least not until that uncle died.

Muhammad then saw the time to escape Mekka and travelled to Medina a town some hundred kilometers south of Mekka. The people in Mekka who believed him went with him during night.

In Medina there were different tribes, polytheistic tribes as well as jewish tribes. Actually there were two jewish tribes. The jewish tribes were skeptical about him, there came an arab who said he were a prophet of the same God of the jews, actually confirming a lot of the jewish message. They tested him to find out if he was just a liar, but couldn't prove that.
They stayed pretty much neutral regarding him, and Mohammad was actually quite fond of them, even telling the muslims to pray in the directing of Jerusalem, so that they had the same praying-direction as the Jews...

The other tribes in Medina became muslims, because they saw a chance to gain more power regarding Mekka, who was until then much more powerful and richer than Medina, both financially and military.

But things didn't stay that way. War broke out with Mekka, both a cold and a hot war, always changing, with all that accompanies it: Fighting, spionage, and also traitors...

In the last category unfortunately the two jewish tribes proved to be active, eventhough they signed a contract with Mohammad to stay neutral. The first tribe made contact with Mekka and gave crucial information to the enemies of Mohammad, leading to death for a lot of fighters of Mohammad.
They obviously believed that Mohammad would lose the war anyway and tried make contracts with Mekka. When that came out, Mohammad ordered that that tribe should go to exile. The tribe left then Medina.

A few years went by, and the war between Mekka and Medina fired up again, and the other jewish tribe made contracts with the enemy of Mohammad, and again gave crucial information away. Additionaly the jewish tribe that went to exile moved to Mekka and fought on the side of Mekka in that war.

In this situation he saw only two alternatives: Again exiling the second jewish tribe which would only strenghten the enemy, or letting them in Medina, risking that Mekka was always informed about the strategy and tactics of Mohammads "army".

In that crucial moment he saw only one possibility: Death for the jewish tribe, which consisted of about 300 people.

You have to understand, even though the Quran favors forgivance instead of eye to eye, tooth for tooth the jews believed in, the Quran also allows for the latter. The jews knew it, and weren't surprised that he ordered death for them.

The information that jewish tribe gave to Mekka costed the life of more than five hundred muslim fighters.

So, you see history is never black and white but always differentiated.

By the way a few years after that Mohammad won the war against Mekka by going to Mekka totally unarmed with all his followers from Medina. Not a single person got killed on that day, and Mekka gave up.

Taliesin

[Uday's Carcass]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
My user name is 'lil'babykitten'
Use it, or don't use it at all.

Don't be so touchy. People are going to have fun with usernames if they want. If you're that thin-skinned, maybe you shouldn't be in the pol/war forum.

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by Taliesin:

By the way a few years after that Mohammad won the war against Mekka by going to Mekka totally unarmed with all his followers from Medina. Not a single person got killed on that day, and Mekka gave up.

Taliesin

And apparently he flew around on a white horse and got a book from a publisher in heaven.

Such a simplistic and uncritical approach to history is why Muslims still have a dark cloud surrounding their grey matter (not excluding other denominations but that's another discussion).

[christ]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Oh.

What do you want numbers for btw?

Remember this:

Just look at the numbers. There are not very many Jews, in the scheme of things, but they do figure prominently in important places. Is this just perception, or is there something to it?

I don't have any of these numbers to hand, and I'm too lazy to look them up, but take an example:

In the US, what proportion of the population is Jewish - and what proportion of the Administration is Jewish (either persuasion, Bush or Clinton). What are the equivalent numbers for, say, 'Catholic', or 'Muslim' proportions?

What about outside the administration, in a different field, say - banking?

Advertising?

Big business?

Is it only perception?

?

This is what you appeared to be addressing with your (either erroneous, or unsupported, or both)

Yes, it is only perception. The ol' conspiracy theory about the Jewish bankers never holds water. Anyone can be a banker and in most cases bankers are your typical white protestants

Remember? Hangovers can present memory problems (as well as comprehension difficulties, apparently) so maybe you would like to wait until you don't have one before replying.

You say it is only perception, but offer no concrete evidence of this, you launch into a diatribe against 'typical white protestant' bankers, with no numerical evidence.

Numbers would help to

a) support you (or not)

b) dispel erroneous perceptions (or not)

Again, I refer you to perry's post, above, for an example of the use of numbers in support of an argument.

[christ]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Bismillah.

Quoting Queen lyrics won't help a hangover.

[RooneyX]

Christ, you want me to give you numbers to disprove a racist theory you can't prove?

[christ]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Christ, you want me to give you numbers to disprove a racist theory you can't prove?

No.

There is an impression abroad. this could easily be quashed if it were untrue. I invited you to go ahead and quash it.

Or expect it to grow and become more prevalent.

If it is true, it is not a 'racist theory', it is fact.

I asked a simple question, no racism (or religionism) intended, as it should be relatively simple to disprove the perception if it is not based on fact. Perry provided numbers that seem to support the 'theory', you think that disproving it is unnecessary.

Your call.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
Don't be so touchy. People are going to have fun with usernames if they want. If you're that thin-skinned, maybe you shouldn't be in the pol/war forum.

I don't usually care if people mess around with my username (not that I see the point, but anyway) but he put Allah in there, which is disrespectful. I don't expect you to understand though, because you usually slip those kind of things in your posts as well.
I don't see the point of it, other than to try and piss people off.

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
I don't usually care if people mess around with my username (not that I see the point, but anyway) but he put Allah in there, which is disrespectful.

Allah doesn't exist so you can't be disrespectful to nothing. It's like cursing Spiderman or Batman. It's fiction, it's a character in a book that some primitive people wrote about coz they didn't know better.

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by christ:
No.

There is an impression abroad. this could easily be quashed if it were untrue. I invited you to go ahead and quash it.

Or expect it to grow and become more prevalent.

If it is true, it is not a 'racist theory', it is fact.

I asked a simple question, no racism (or religionism) intended, as it should be relatively simple to disprove the perception if it is not based on fact. Perry provided numbers that seem to support the 'theory', you think that disproving it is unnecessary.

Your call.

Support what theory? That people work hard in some places? I can guarantee you'll find more people of other denominations in all those sectors. Figures? Go and look instead of being a racist pissant.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Allah doesn't exist so you can't be disrespectful to nothing. It's like cursing Spiderman or Batman. It's fiction, it's a character in a book that some primitive people wrote about coz they didn't know better.

In your opinion perhaps.
What a total lack of respect for other people's beliefs you have.
On to my ignore list you go.

Good Bye.

[Uday's Carcass]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
I don't expect you to understand though, because you usually slip those kind of things in your posts as well.
I don't see the point of it, other than to try and piss people off.

oh man that's so true.

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
In your opinion perhaps.
What a total lack of respect for other people's beliefs you have.

And my beliefs?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
And my beliefs?

well. I have no ideas of your beliefs, but as a rule of thumb, if someone expresses to you that you have disrespected their beliefs, the appropriate human response is either an immediate apology or an attempt to understand the perceived wrong.

Just clueing you in on normal human interaction, in case you were having some trouble.

[christ]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Support what theory? That people work hard in some places? I can guarantee you'll find more people of other denominations in all those sectors. Figures? Go and look instead of being a racist pissant.

Are you having difficulty with your reading?

There has been expressed a perception that Jews hold disproportionately large numbers of positions of power.

If this is true, it is not racist, it is fact.

If, on the other hand, it is not true, then it could be considered racist. To demonstrate racism, all you have to do is demonstrate that it is not true.

You, however, choose to not attempt to disprove the theory, but to resort to slanderous attacks on anyone with whom you disagree, their parentage or their religion.

You can't 'guarantee' anything, but you are so confident that you hold the only principle that could possibly be right, that anyone even contemplating anything else must be a 'racist pissant'.

To go back to my original question:

There are not very many Jews, in the scheme of things, but they do figure prominently in important places. Is this just perception, or is there something to it?

...[for example] In the US, what proportion of the population is Jewish - and what proportion of the Administration is Jewish (either persuasion, Bush or Clinton). What are the equivalent numbers for, say, 'Catholic', or 'Muslim' proportions?

What is 'racist' about this question?

Why does it upset you so that the question is asked?

Note that the question also asks about other minorities (that would be the 'Catholic', or 'Muslim' part of the question).

What is your problem?

[Taliesin]

RooneyX,

what Mohammed has done was pure and brilliant strategy/tactic. In the years before he went totally unarmed with his fellowers to Mekka, he won battle after battle, he gained more and more might, made contracts with a lot of nomadic tribes, with the beduines who controlled the "trading streets" throughout the desert.
Mekka therefore lost more and more influence, both in financial and in military terms, while Medina gained more and more...

Mohammed could have conquered Mekka military, but he waited and waited, while his fellowers in Medina grew impatient. Then on the first day of a special month, he told his fellowers in Medina, that they would go and conquer Mekka. They were cheerful until he told them that they would go totally unarmed. They were shocked, and didn't want to go into sure doom, and tried to convince Mohammed to change his decision. He then told them whoever wants can stay in Medina, but whoever believes in God and in him, should accompany him. The majority went with him, and saw that mission as a test for their faith.


That month was a holy month for the polytheistic Mekka-people. It was the month of the pilgrimage to the holy Kaaba. Pilgrims came from all tribes to visit the kaaba, they paid their tax to Mekka for visiting the Kaaba... In that month it was forbidden to fight or to kill anyone, unless the enemy starts to fight. They never expected that the enemy Mohammed and his fellowers would also do the pilgrimage, since Mohammed propagated a monotheistic religion,and the kaaba had more than 300 "Gods" in form of statues.

But the enemy came and the people of Mekka prepared for the ultimate battle. When they were near Mekka ambassadors where sent out from Mekka to find out what the enemy had in mind. And what the ambassadors came back with was unheard of.
Mohammed said to Mekka that he would do the pilgrimage, and what more, the ambassadors reported that they were totally unarmed.

There was the big chance for Mekka to beat its enemy once and for all. But there were a lot of psychological, religious and diplomatic problems ahead. If they had done this they would have to break their religious rule of not fighting or killing in the holy month, and the enemy isn't attacking since he is unarmed and has expressed the wish to commit the pilgrimage.
Additionaly if they had hindered Mohammed to do the pilgrimage, and instead killed him, they would have lost all trust from the remaining tribes which were in contract with Mekka. No pilgrims would ever again come to Mekka unarmed, and that would have made the holy month worthless. That would have meant the end of the pilgrimage-tax, which was the main-income for Mekka since Medina has taken over most trading on arabia.

The discussions in Mekka lasted days, while Mohammed and his fellowers waited outside of Mekka. The discussions in Mekka nearly ended in chaos, the pressure was extremely big. The ideas went from assassining Mohammed to killing all of his fellowers outside, from going to exile to just letting Mohammed do the pilgrimage and letting him leave again, or denying Mohammed the right to do the pilgrimage...
Every idea had many serious problems...

But some of the Mekkaners also saw the chance for ending this war, which went more and more in favour of Medina. Some of them even expressed the sorrow that the one god of Mohammed was probably more powerful than their 300 Gods altogether...
And off course they dreamt of the good old time when the business was still monopolised by Mekka, and that the peace with Mohammed could bring back the good old times.

All that led to the peace-offer from Mekka a few days later. Mohammed accepted with the condition that Mekka would have to abandon the polytheism and accept that there is only one god, and other conditions including of freeing all prisoners, of allowing slaves who express the wish to be muslim to be free...

They accepted the conditions, and Mohammed entered Mekka with his fellowers totally unarmed, went to the Kaaba, and destroyed all of the statues of the 300 gods.

That was the end of the long war between Mekka and Medina.

Taliesin

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Logic:
You know very well what forum I'm talking about. And no one person does not speak for the whole forum but when everyone seemed to agree with him one can use an educated guess what the general opinion is on that forum.

You think everyone at Fubar agrees? Heh, you don't read it too much. While there is SOME things we all agree on, not one member speaks for the rest.

Originally posted by Logic:
Look, AutoJC, Zimph and M_A hang out at anohter forum and plan these things.

Are you suggesting we planned me posting this? I surely hope not.

They spout their racist agenda there and then come back here to continue their trolling. And the reason I "attack" M_A is this(there are more like these but I'll let this do for now).

I have never said anything racist.

And the problem is that most of the disagreements about islam are because people are ignorant about islam. Should I just sit idle by and let people continue to wander in ignorance or should I try to enlighten people?

I have no qualms with Islam. Islam cannot physically do things.


What scares me is, that 19 people that voted, think Jews actually rule the world.

[Uday's Carcass]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
What scares me is, that 19 people that voted, think Jews actually rule the world.

I'd like to know how many of them are European or non-US (UK not included). Experience tells me to suspect non-Americans more often when it comes to distaste for Jews and fantasizing about their alleged worldwide conspiracies and how they rule the world by proxy.

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by Uday's Carcass:
I'd like to know how many of them are European or non-US (UK not included). Experience tells me to suspect non-Americans more often when it comes to distaste for Jews and fantasizing about their alleged worldwide conspiracies and how they rule the world by proxy.

My experience is the opposite. UK and German members would definitely not. They have none of those qualms and detest those conspiracy theories.

What I'd like to see is those 19 members have the balls to say who they are and why they voted that way.

[Uday's Carcass]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
My experience is the opposite. UK and German members would definitely not. They have none of those qualms and detest those conspiracy theories.

I agree. I was talking about those of non-English-speaking nations. Continental Europe, Asia, the Middle East, etc.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by RooneyX:

What I'd like to see is those 19 members have the balls to say who they are and why they voted that way.

[nvaughan3]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
My experience is the opposite. UK and German members would definitely not. They have none of those qualms and detest those conspiracy theories.

What I'd like to see is those 19 members have the balls to say who they are and why they voted that way.

french and germans certainly have no qualms about believing in 9/11 conspiracy theories that our the US government was behind it, or that it did not even happen at all!

Oh, and I voted yes, just to piss off someone.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by nvaughan3:
Oh, and I voted yes, just to piss off someone.

At least you had the guts to admit that.

I can respect that.

[lil'babykitten]

uh oh.

[christ]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
What I'd like to see is those 19 members have the balls to say who they are and why they voted that way.

Why?

The debate (such as it was) in this thread would not have benefitted in any way from knowing, and it is as likely as not that most of the 'yes' votes were mischievious.

It is apparent from your style that people that you think don't agree with you are going to get flamed, shouted at or abused, so I can only begin to imagine what you might do to someone that actually voted the opposite way to you and then admitted it.

I am still of the opinion that the best way to stop a perception is to disprove it, but it does seem that some among us think that the best way to stop a perception gaining currency is thuggery and insult. Secret ballots were invented to avoid just that sort of intimidation, and it is folk like you that have always been scared of secret ballots, because in them people may vote with their conscience rather than with the biggest bully.

If it makes any difference, pretend I voted against you (whichever way you voted).

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by nvaughan3:
french and germans certainly have no qualms about believing in 9/11 conspiracy theories that our the US government was behind it, or that it did not even happen at all!

Same with Americans though.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Same with Americans though.

Only certain extreme left wingers.

[christ]

Originally posted by nvaughan3:
french and germans certainly have no qualms about believing ... that it [9/11] did not even happen at all!

I am intrigued by your sources for this gem.

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Only certain extreme left wingers.

Nah, most conspiracy theories always come from the rightwing associated with militias, end of the world cults, Aryan Nations, etc. And they always point their theories towards Jews instead of Texans (!).

Then people like Mahatir pick those theories up and pass them to Islamists.

[christ]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
<snip> Islamists.

What is an Islamist (or is it racist / antisemitic to ask?)