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God Bless America (Page 2)
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ghporter
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Oct 4, 2010, 04:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Well, in the future, hospitals will not turn people down, but thei ability to fund treating people w/o insurance will greatly diminish. So they will hand out free band aids for everything.

Alas, I would require the fire department to do minimal service for peopel that didn't buy the $75 protection.

That minimal service should be like one or two buckets of free water.

-t
US hospitals with emergency facilities (an ER and/or childbirth facilities) are prohibited by law from turning anyone away, regardless of their ability to pay. This has been the case for quite some time. One argument for universal health care is that people without insurance tend to go to emergency rooms for what started out as trivial matters but got out of hand-and thus will be very expensive to treat. This tends to push the cost of their care onto the hospital corporations, who pass it on in their bills, and so your and my health insurance costs go up. Covering everyone is theoretically supposed to get people preventative and primary care so they don't do this. Changing the habits of at least a generation of uninsured people won't go that smoothly.

As for suing the burnt out people for not having coverage, what about suing the subscription agency for not KEEPING the subscribed homes from catching fire, as they had obviously gotten out there in time to piddle around about whether or not the burning house was covered...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 4, 2010, 04:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
As for suing the burnt out people for not having coverage, what about suing the subscription agency for not KEEPING the subscribed homes from catching fire, as they had obviously gotten out there in time to piddle around about whether or not the burning house was covered...
That was going to be my next question.
     
smacintush
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Oct 4, 2010, 04:52 PM
 
I obviously haven't seen their charter, but I fail to see why the fire service should be at all responsible for preventing someones property form catching fire as well. The Cranicks are the ones who should be held 100% responsible for their own property damage and adjacent property damage.
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
Shaddim
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Oct 4, 2010, 05:03 PM
 
Agreed. If you refuse to pay for a service, don't complain when that service isn't available when you need it. If you don't like that, move to an area where your taxes pay for a fire department. I think we pay ~$100 per year, probably about as much as I spend on chewing gum.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 05:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
It's not as cut and dried as you seem to think. If they let people steal fire service, then they won't have enough money to run the department properly. Then, people die.

Nice job breaking it hero.
Back to the stealing tactic.
Nice.

Some of you guys deserve the country you end up with, the others, I feel for you.
     
Snow-i
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Oct 4, 2010, 05:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson
If somebody chooses not to pay the fire fee, what are the hidden costs that the neighbors and the rest of the community has to absorb? If both the fire fee and fire insurance are optional, maybe car insurance should also be optional?
Bess, no offence, but do you even know what you're talking about?

You don't have to buy car insurance for your own car which is known as collision and comprehensive. You have to buy liability insurance to ensure that if you get in an accident, your insurance pays for the other persons damages. This isn't the first time you've missed the boat on the concept of car insurance.
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 05:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
US hospitals with emergency facilities (an ER and/or childbirth facilities) are prohibited by law from turning anyone away, regardless of their ability to pay. This has been the case for quite some time. One argument for universal health care is that people without insurance tend to go to emergency rooms for what started out as trivial matters but got out of hand-and thus will be very expensive to treat. This tends to push the cost of their care onto the hospital corporations, who pass it on in their bills, and so your and my health insurance costs go up. Covering everyone is theoretically supposed to get people preventative and primary care so they don't do this. Changing the habits of at least a generation of uninsured people won't go that smoothly.

As for suing the burnt out people for not having coverage, what about suing the subscription agency for not KEEPING the subscribed homes from catching fire, as they had obviously gotten out there in time to piddle around about whether or not the burning house was covered...
The facts you posted above goes right over the heads of the extreme right, libertarians here.
Snide comments, laughing at them soothes the soul.
     
turtle777
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Oct 4, 2010, 05:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
US hospitals with emergency facilities (an ER and/or childbirth facilities) are prohibited by law from turning anyone away, regardless of their ability to pay. This has been the case for quite some time. One argument for universal health care is that people without insurance tend to go to emergency rooms for what started out as trivial matters but got out of hand-and thus will be very expensive to treat. This tends to push the cost of their care onto the hospital corporations, who pass it on in their bills, and so your and my health insurance costs go up. Covering everyone is theoretically supposed to get people preventative and primary care so they don't do this. Changing the habits of at least a generation of uninsured people won't go that smoothly.
The point I was trying to make: IT CAN'T BE FINANCED.

There is just not enough "free" money around to pay for all this "free" stuff.

Some fire departments have already hit the point where they need to finance themselves by voluntary "subscriptions", or else there is no service. Hopsitals will follow, especially now under ObamaCare. Ultimately, services that have been free in the past have to be charged for.

Raising taxes to pay for all this is NOT the answer.

Linky.

-t
     
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Oct 4, 2010, 05:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
The point I was trying to make: IT CAN'T BE FINANCED.

There is just not enough "free" money around to pay for all this "free" stuff.

Some fire departments have already hit the point where they need to finance themselves by voluntary "subscriptions", or else there is no service. Hopsitals will follow, especially now under ObamaCare. Ultimately, services that have been free in the past have to be charged for.

Raising taxes to pay for all this is NOT the answer.

Linky.

-t
Riiight, Hopsitals
At least you can multi-quote .
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 05:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
The point I was trying to make: IT CAN'T BE FINANCED.

There is just not enough "free" money around to pay for all this "free" stuff.

Some fire departments have already hit the point where they need to finance themselves by voluntary "subscriptions", or else there is no service. Hopsitals will follow, especially now under ObamaCare. Ultimately, services that have been free in the past have to be charged for.

Raising taxes to pay for all this is NOT the answer.

Linky.

-t
Ya know, "Clinically Insane", your words, just about covers the above.
     
SpaceMonkey
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Oct 4, 2010, 05:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
I obviously haven't seen their charter, but I fail to see why the fire service should be at all responsible for preventing someones property form catching fire as well. The Cranicks are the ones who should be held 100% responsible for their own property damage and adjacent property damage.
I think he was talking about the (subscribed) neighbor's house which caught fire when the fire department didn't respond to the Cranicks' house. I wonder if the neighbors could have called the fire department for the Cranicks and put on their tab.
( Last edited by SpaceMonkey; Oct 4, 2010 at 05:32 PM. )

"One ticket to Washington, please. I have a date with destiny."
     
ghporter
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Oct 4, 2010, 05:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
I think he was talking about the (subscribed) neighbor's house which caught fire when the fire department didn't respond to the Cranicks' house.
That is precisely what I meant. The fire people appear to have responded and been on-scene. Why didn't they keep the subscribed neighbor's house from catching fire?

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 05:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
I think he was talking about the (subscribed) neighbor's house which caught fire when the fire department didn't respond to the Cranicks' house.
Here's the left wing tv news story,
Think Progress Tennessee County’s Subscription-Based Firefighters Watch As Family Home Burns Down
It was a field that caught fire, unbelievable.
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 05:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Screener, chill the heck out.
Have you been reading some of the posts agreeing with the policy?
Chill out?, I don't think so.
     
ghporter
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Oct 4, 2010, 05:46 PM
 
"Flames spread to the property of a neighbor..." And I had misread where the Telegraph story said the fire fighters arrived "only after" the fire spread.

However, here is a local television station's story on the incident. This isn't a rural fire protection department, but the fire department of the city of South Fulton, TN. Extending fire protection outside the city is on a subscription basis... And the situation is beginning to sound worse every time I read more about it. The county apparently can't afford to cover people outside the city limits, but the city of South Fulton can afford to cover people in their area for $75 a year? Why isn't Obion County handling this? Are they totally unable to levy a $75/year tax on property owners?

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Oct 4, 2010, 05:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter's article
Friends and neighbors said it's a cruel and dangerous city policy but the Cranicks don't blame the firefighters themselves. They blame the people in charge.
"They're doing their job," Paulette Cranick said of the firefighters. "They're doing what they are told to do. It's not their fault."
To give you an idea of just how intense the feelings got in this situation, soon after the fire department returned to the station, the Obion County Sheriff's Department said someone went there and assaulted one of the firefighters.
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 05:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Are they totally unable to levy a $75/year tax on property owners?
Well you wouldn't want some one to pay for some one else now would you.

A snide comment, does that work for you?
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 05:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Covered previously, unless I'm on ignore.
     
turtle777
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Oct 4, 2010, 05:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
Riiight, Hopsitals
At least you can multi-quote .
OMG, that's all you got ?

Go die.

-t
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Oct 4, 2010, 06:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
Covered previously, unless I'm on ignore.
look closer
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 06:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
OMG, that's all you got ?

Go die.

-t
Go die?, would that be an infraction?
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 06:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
look closer
Guess I'm not, thanks.
     
ghporter
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Oct 4, 2010, 06:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
Well you wouldn't want some one to pay for some one else now would you.

A snide comment, does that work for you?
Your snide, my incredulous, it's still a "WTF?" issue, I think...

I would hate to think that people used this example to think of the entire United States. I grew up in a near-rural town in Michigan, and we had volunteer firefighters-who covered a chartered township area of around 30 square miles. In Central Texas, the organization is more on a basis of sections of rural counties, with roughly the same coverage areas. To have a place that is close enough to a city to have that city do any fire fighting outside the city limits, yet can't manage the minuscule tax base needed to finance this amount of coverage is simply astounding to me...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
turtle777
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Oct 4, 2010, 06:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
Go die?, would that be an infraction?
No, a command. Now go.

-t
     
besson3c
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Oct 4, 2010, 06:30 PM
 
Turtle, you have about the smallest threshold of irritability of literally anybody I know before you become grouchy, and that's saying a lot because my wife has to put up with me constantly!

Go necromancy, you will feel better. At least, this always works for me, washing away my troubles on the bowl... Otherwise, stare at my signature for a few minutes - you will feel better.
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 06:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Your snide, my incredulous, it's still a "WTF?" issue, I think...

I would hate to think that people used this example to think of the entire United States. I grew up in a near-rural town in Michigan, and we had volunteer firefighters-who covered a chartered township area of around 30 square miles. In Central Texas, the organization is more on a basis of sections of rural counties, with roughly the same coverage areas. To have a place that is close enough to a city to have that city do any fire fighting outside the city limits, yet can't manage the minuscule tax base needed to finance this amount of coverage is simply astounding to me...
The premise of the thread, using Angle as an example, that the right seems to be moving to
is anti helping those that need it.

This goes to the "I'm alright Jack" you're on your own stereotype that wingers enjoy.

Stories like this feed the left wing ideology, it takes a village, we are in this together.

The neighbors were outraged by the fire departments non action.
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 06:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
No, a command. Now go.

-t
Feelling superior I see.
Bite me.
     
besson3c
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Oct 4, 2010, 06:36 PM
 
What are you hoping to accomplish here, screener?
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 06:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Turtle, you have about the smallest threshold of irritability of literally anybody I know before you become grouchy, and that's saying a lot because my wife has to put up with me constantly!

Go necromancy, you will feel better. At least, this always works for me, washing away my troubles on the bowl... Otherwise, stare at my signature for a few minutes - you will feel better.
Yeah, a bit slow on the up take, meaning the turtle.
Maybe in the long run, but I doubt it.
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 06:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
What are you hoping to accomplish here, screener?
Turtle wants me to die and I should roll over and...

go ahead and reply.
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 06:47 PM
 
You're still on the board, what's your problem.
     
turtle777
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Oct 4, 2010, 06:59 PM
 
All right, I get the message.

You're on ignore now.

-t
     
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Oct 4, 2010, 07:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
All right, I get the message.

You're on ignore now.

-t
Can't take the heat, precious.
     
andi*pandi
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Oct 4, 2010, 07:12 PM
 
A story about rocks and glass houses comes to mind.
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 07:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
A story about rocks and glass houses comes to mind.
Wouldn't want anyone rocking the boat that is macnn.
     
besson3c
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Oct 4, 2010, 07:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
Wouldn't want anyone rocking the boat that is macnn.
Do you have any idea how dumb name calling on the internet is? I mean, what a complete waste of time... Moreover, if you are really trying to persuade people of your righteousness, do you think that these tactics are going to gain you any traction?

What you are doing here is a complete and utter waste of your time, you do realize that, don't you? I mean, what do you expect?

"Hmmm.. screener thinks that I'm a dummy. This makes me want to re-examine my beliefs... Wow, now that I have done this I can see that he is completely right about everything! I must change my beliefs and apologize for being so wrong!"
     
sek929
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Oct 4, 2010, 07:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
Wouldn't want anyone rocking the boat that is macnn.
Rocking the boat in PWL would have to mean making intelligent statements that warrant actual discussion.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Oct 4, 2010, 07:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Do you have any idea how dumb name calling on the internet is? I mean, what a complete waste of time
Sounds like something a winger would say. You must be a winger. Don't you feel dumb now for being outed as a winger?
     
besson3c
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Oct 4, 2010, 07:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Sounds like something a winger would say. You must be a winger. Don't you feel dumb now for being outed as a winger?

Perhaps screener is BadKosh's alter ego?
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Oct 4, 2010, 07:54 PM
 
That's what I thought too! Maybe you wingers aren't all bad after all
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 07:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Do you have any idea how dumb name calling on the internet is? I mean, what a complete waste of time... Moreover, if you are really trying to persuade people of your righteousness, do you think that these tactics are going to gain you any traction?

What you are doing here is a complete and utter waste of your time, you do realize that, don't you? I mean, what do you expect?

"Hmmm.. screener thinks that I'm a dummy. This makes me want to re-examine my beliefs... Wow, now that I have done this I can see that he is completely right about everything! I must change my beliefs and apologize for being so wrong!"
I don't think anything anyone says will change what some here and elsewhere think.
Do you think what you say will change a hard core opinion?

I have no time to be nice about it, been there done that, doesn't do anything for me.
I call it like it is.

You don't like what I post, put me on ignore like the other thin skinned bleeps.
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 07:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Rocking the boat in PWL would have to mean making intelligent statements that warrant actual discussion.
2 pages ain't bad for a first thread, even though most skipped by the first sentence.
Intelligence indeed.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Oct 4, 2010, 08:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
2 pages ain't bad for a first thread
And there we have it!

46% of the posts are from you, so you are responsible for your own success. Very nice work. That "make your own luck," "pick yourself up by your bootstraps" spirit is just the kind of work ethic that wingers enjoy. You must be a winger too. They're multiplying!
     
screener  (op)
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Oct 4, 2010, 08:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
And there we have it!

46% of the posts are from you, so you are responsible for your own success. Very nice work. That "make your own luck," "pick yourself up by your bootstraps" spirit is just the kind of work ethic that wingers enjoy. You must be a winger too. They're multiplying!
You took the time to figure out the percentage, I'm impressed.
If only I multi-quoted.
Anything to add about the premise of the thread, you know, the first sentence.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Oct 4, 2010, 08:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
Anything to add about the premise of the thread, you know, the first sentence.
It sucks.

Sorry I'm not going to be nice about it. I only have just barely enough time to call 'em like I see 'em. I don't have time for digraphs either; deal with it.

Edit: oh I see s/he's taking a vacation. I retract most of what I said. Happy trails, screener
( Last edited by Uncle Skeleton; Oct 4, 2010 at 08:48 PM. )
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Oct 4, 2010, 08:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
I don't think anything anyone says will change what some here and elsewhere think.
Do you think what you say will change a hard core opinion?
Besson3c has changed my hard core opinion about a very important issue: poop. It used to fill me with shame whenever it happened, but thanks to besson3c I can now take pride in it. It wasn't easy, but besson3c was very persistent on the subject, and in the end he won me over.
     
smacintush
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Oct 4, 2010, 09:20 PM
 
I knew this thread was doomed as soon as I saw that there were 13 replies and 11 of them were from him.
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
besson3c
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Oct 4, 2010, 09:22 PM
 
It is comforting to know that in all of my years and posts here, it looks like I have helped one person.
     
imitchellg5
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Oct 4, 2010, 09:31 PM
 
What is it with these relative noobs coming in and pretending like they own the place?
     
ThinkInsane
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Oct 4, 2010, 09:31 PM
 
You should be able to have as intelligent debate (or what passes for it around here) now if anyone would like to go back to discussing the topic. And by that. I mean no more off-topic posts.

And as to the topic at hand, this is a tough one. The problem I see with volunteer fire districts locally is that many seem to feel that they are in a constant pissing contest with the other volunteer departments. Last year we had a situation where a department called for mutual aid, and the neighboring department refused to respond because of a "personality conflict" (in violation of state law, IIRC) between the departments. The house was a total loss, and the owners have since filed a lawsuit that most likely will be costly.

A lot of volunteer departments have incorporated and operate as a contractor to the municipality. This removes all government oversight, and leaves them to pretty much operate as they see fit within the requirements issued by the state. There have been instances where the vols. have squandered their budgets, then tried to hold municipalities hostage (we won't respond unless you buy us a new engine blah blah blah). One village, the vols got all uppity, walked into the village board meeting, and the chief proclaimed that they were no longer the municipal department, they were incorporating and would negotiate rates with the village, and oh, by the way, if you don't want your houses to burn, you're signing over all the equipment and and the fire station, then stood back with a smug smile on his face. The mayor turned to one of the village cops, said go clear the building and have someone from DPW change all the locks. He then turned back to the fire chief, informed him that he and members of the department were no longer village firefighters, they could make arrangements with the cops to collect any personal items in the station. He then arranged coverage with the two neighboring villages and set about recruiting new firemen. Soon the had a department with core of full-time paid firefighters, supported by volunteers. The residents, with the exception of the former firefighters, are quite pleased with the results.

These incidents led to a lot of debate about abolishing the volunteer brigades and creating a professional, paid, county fire department. Turns out the costs of running a department that covers such a large geographic area are absolutely staggering.

I don't know if subscription coverage in rural areas is a good idea or not, but I think if I lived in such an area, the $75 is well worth the piece of mind.
Nemo me impune lacesset
     
 
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