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Confederate Flag Displays
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design219
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Sep 20, 2009, 10:19 PM
 


I have to drive by a large one displayed on the side of a house on my way home from work. I also have seen them in the back windows of pickup trucks and on front license plates. It really bugs me. Are people really trying to make a statement, or are they just clueless?

Does seeing this flag displayed bother anybody else, or am I missing something?
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Sep 20, 2009, 10:24 PM
 
Don't ya like Skynyrd then, Des?
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Sep 20, 2009, 10:38 PM
 
You don't like rednecks ?
You teh racist.

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Sep 20, 2009, 10:57 PM
 
IF the people displaying the flag are intending to celebrate the cause of states' rights, or the valor of the fallen soldiers of the Confederacy, that would be no big deal. Unfortunately, like many things, the flags of the Confederacy have been preempted by bigots and racists and used as rallying icons for other bigots and racists. Living in one of the former Confederate states, I see the battle flag all the time, and it's no big deal because of where and how it's displayed. But in other places, you might not have a clue as to the meaning the person displaying the flag intends. THAT is a problem, a real problem.

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Sep 20, 2009, 11:14 PM
 
Doesn't bother me. Racist pigs bug me a bit, but a flag that could stand for any number of things? No.
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turtle777
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Sep 20, 2009, 11:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Doesn't bother me. Racist pigs bug me a bit, but a flag that could stand for any number of things? No.
Any number of BAD things, that is.

-t
     
Chuckit
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Sep 20, 2009, 11:21 PM
 
Liberty and small government?
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Sep 20, 2009, 11:35 PM
 
Isn't the current flag you all pledge allegiance to essentially the same one your government was operating under in 1838 when they forcibly removed the Cherokee from their lands, causing 4,000 deaths?
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Sep 21, 2009, 12:34 AM
 
I was living in Northern Cal (Mendocino coast area) and would see people with these in the back window of their trucks. It made me laugh for a couple of reasons, a) I am from South and b) they are not, nor ever had been. Many of those yahoos had never left California.
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Sep 21, 2009, 12:50 AM
 
It's not a flag I'm particularly comfortable with, but I don't think of it that often.

How many states use it?

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Sep 21, 2009, 01:08 AM
 
Technically, none anymore.
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Sep 21, 2009, 03:46 AM
 
Giving the flag a pass as a symbol of "limited government and states rights" is a bit like forgiving the wearing of a pro-al qaeda shirt as a symbol of "the dangers of rampant capitalism and US interference in the middle east" or professing your support for the IRA bombers as proponents of "Irish pride and self determination."

It's the symbol of a movement that caused hundreds of thousands of deaths primarily because they wanted to limit the governments power to curtail their "state's right" to own other human beings. Just because other, lesser issues got wrapped up in it and likely most "valiant" soldiers who died were not slave owners, it doesn't make the symbol itself any less repulsive.
     
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Sep 21, 2009, 04:32 AM
 
^^^ Very good.

Should I start wearing the Swastika, since I like the Autobahn, which Hitler build in Germany ?

-t
     
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Sep 21, 2009, 07:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
^^^ Very good.

Should I start wearing the Swastika, since I like the Autobahn, which Hitler build in Germany ?

-t
What's wrong with the Swastika?




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design219  (op)
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Sep 21, 2009, 07:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Isn't the current flag you all pledge allegiance to essentially the same one your government was operating under in 1838 when they forcibly removed the Cherokee from their lands, causing 4,000 deaths?
Yes, but our nation has changed. The confederacy never did. It was defeated and abolished.
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Sep 21, 2009, 08:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by design219 View Post
Yes, but our nation has changed. The confederacy never did. It was defeated and abolished.
What does it bother you? Someone on his private property is displaying whatever he wants.

For me it is the intent behind it. Lots of kids in Québec are displaying the swatiska not knowing the pain the nazis inflicted on the world. Japan's flag has not changed since 2nd world war does it mean they would have to change it since they lost the war and started a huge blood bath in the Pacific.

I prefer not to see the confederate flag or the swatiska but it is about freedom of speech and perhaps the owner of the flag you saw is just a proud southerner. So next time do not look at that property and give him freedom of speech and be the bigger one.
     
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Sep 21, 2009, 08:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by design219 View Post
Yes, but our nation has changed.
So, the government currently operating under that same flag doesn't have any racist policies then? No diversity immigration programs based on a person's bloodline or anything like that then?
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Sep 21, 2009, 08:31 AM
 
@Paco500
Well put.
I never understood the Confederate Flag thing either: why would you be proud of the South? Proud of slavery? In my opinion is a redirected inferiority complex: the South (on average) has since been economically weaker since day 1 and their need for more manual labor (the North was more industrialized) made them `dependent' on slave labor. Obviously, they have lost the war. To feel better about themselves, they want to associate with something that gives them a sense of community with the other (comparatively poor) Southern states.

It's the same with Bavarians in Germany (although slavery was never an issue): they have a 1+15 mentality that is unique within Germany.
Originally Posted by Monique View Post
Japan's flag has not changed since 2nd world war does it mean they would have to change it since they lost the war and started a huge blood bath in the Pacific.
Eeeh, no. Nationalists in Japan have usually used (and still use!) a different flag, namely that of the military, the rising sun:

And yes, it's still offensive to the victims (e. g. from Korea or parts of China) even if Japan has adopted versions of this flag for its army, I mean self-defense forces. Japan was never very keen on working out its past.
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Sep 21, 2009, 08:37 AM
 
     
Paco500
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Sep 21, 2009, 08:55 AM
 
I'm not arguing against anyone's right to display the flag. It's just if they do I think they are an asshat.
     
Chuckit
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Sep 21, 2009, 11:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Giving the flag a pass as a symbol of "limited government and states rights" is a bit like forgiving the wearing of a pro-al qaeda shirt as a symbol of "the dangers of rampant capitalism and US interference in the middle east" or professing your support for the IRA bombers as proponents of "Irish pride and self determination."
That's quite different, in that nobody who holds those positions genuinely sees it that way. There are still many Southerners who have no animosity toward other races and don't support slavery any more than you do, but who still see it as an issue of individual rights. For them, it really wasn't about slavery.

A better analogue: If you go to some places in Japan and look at a map, you will find it's absolutely covered in swastikas. A hugely offensive middle-finger from an Axis power? No, it's a common symbol over there representing Buddhist temples, and I'd say anyone who tries to raise a fuss about it is the one being racist.

Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
It's the symbol of a movement that caused hundreds of thousands of deaths
I believe it's the North shooting at people and burning down their cities that led to the hundreds of thousands of deaths, unless you're talking about something else I don't know about.

Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
primarily because they wanted to limit the governments power to curtail their "state's right" to own other human beings. Just because other, lesser issues got wrapped up in it and likely most "valiant" soldiers who died were not slave owners, it doesn't make the symbol itself any less repulsive.
I'm not going to bother explaining this any further if you're not going to bother putting any real thought into it.
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Sep 21, 2009, 12:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
That's quite different, in that nobody who holds those positions genuinely sees it that way. There are still many Southerners who have no animosity toward other races and don't support slavery any more than you do, but who still see it as an issue of individual rights. For them, it really wasn't about slavery.
For Japanese, both, their normal flag and to a lesser degree, the rising sun aren't about the atrocities they have committed in their former colonies and during World War 2. Ignorance (intentional or not) is no excuse.
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
A better analogue: If you go to some places in Japan and look at a map, you will find it's absolutely covered in swastikas. A hugely offensive middle-finger from an Axis power? No, it's a common symbol over there representing Buddhist temples, and I'd say anyone who tries to raise a fuss about it is the one being racist.
That's a very bad analogy: the swastika in Germany and the swastika in Asia as a sign for Buddhist temples has evolved independently from one another. At no point was there an association between Buddhist and Nazi symbols.

The Confederate flag has evolved historically from, well, the South and the flag still signifies the former Confederate States.
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Sep 21, 2009, 01:32 PM
 
Why would YOU care about someone else? Why are people so nosy and self righteous? Are you a LIBERAL or something?
     
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Sep 21, 2009, 01:36 PM
 
This would be an interesting issue were it in the pol lounge. If it were there, I could bang on at length about how the union was simply a little jealous that people "owned" other people and wanted some of that action for itself.

Stop filing your 1040 and see who owns you now.
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Sep 21, 2009, 01:40 PM
 
At the very least, it's traitorous activity that should be punished. [/Devil's advocate]

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design219  (op)
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Sep 21, 2009, 02:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Why would YOU care about someone else? Why are people so nosy and self righteous? Are you a LIBERAL or something?
Why does anyone care about anyone else? Wow, is that your definition of a liberal? If so, yeah, I guess I am.

I'm not Jewish, but I don't want to see Nazi flags in my neighborhood either. Do you? Do you like seeing trash in your neighbors yard? Or crosses burning on your neighbor's lawn?
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Sep 21, 2009, 02:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
A better analogue: If you go to some places in Japan and look at a map, you will find it's absolutely covered in swastikas. A hugely offensive middle-finger from an Axis power? No, it's a common symbol over there representing Buddhist temples, and I'd say anyone who tries to raise a fuss about it is the one being racist.
No, that's a damn stupid analogue. The swastika as a symbol was in use in eastern religions for hundreds if not thousands of years before the Nazis came along. The slack-jawed yokels that display the confederate flag directly relate to the CSA.
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I believe it's the North shooting at people and burning down their cities that led to the hundreds of thousands of deaths, unless you're talking about something else I don't know about.
Yes, the wicked north tricked the south in to dissolving the union over their rights to enslave other humans and then, when they least expected it, (while the placid and genteel southerners were peacefully sipping mint juleps, holding cotillions, and singing spirituals with their happy slaves) the damned unionist snuck up and shot people and burned their cities.
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I'm not going to bother explaining this any further if you're not going to bother putting any real thought into it.
Quite a relief. But for the record, you haven't explained anything- you've just highlighted your own blatant ignorance or perhaps your latent racism.

Instead of spouting nonsense on this board, you might want to pick up a history book. It would do you some good.
     
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Sep 21, 2009, 02:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
This would be an interesting issue were it in the pol lounge. If it were there, I could bang on at length about how the union was simply a little jealous that people "owned" other people and wanted some of that action for itself.

Stop filing your 1040 and see who owns you now.
     
Paco500
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Sep 21, 2009, 02:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
This would be an interesting issue were it in the pol lounge. If it were there, I could bang on at length about how the union was simply a little jealous that people "owned" other people and wanted some of that action for itself.
But that would be a silly argument, as slavery was rampant in the north until there was the happy convergence of more enlightened thinking combined with it's economic "necessity" dissolving. The north had been there, done that. They were not in the least bit jealous.
     
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Sep 21, 2009, 02:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
That's quite different, in that nobody who holds those positions genuinely sees it that way. There are still many Southerners who have no animosity toward other races and don't support slavery any more than you do, but who still see it as an issue of individual rights. For them, it really wasn't about slavery.
So, they fought a war in order to keep enslaving colored folk over a matter of principle? That's f**ked up. Free the slaves, pick a different issue to stand up for states rights over. What if Texas decided to start burning asians alive just to prove a point about who can tell them what they can and can't do? It would be wrong, regardless of whether their point was valid. Much like terrorism - you may have a valid point, but bombing people is still wrong.

When they did that, they irreversibly tied that flag to a symbol of racism. I grew up in the South, and that flag gives me the heebie jeebies. Most of the people that fly it know exactly the message they're sending and who they're sending it to. It ain't about states rights.
     
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Sep 21, 2009, 03:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by wallinbl View Post
So, they fought a war in order to keep enslaving colored folk over a matter of principle?
The South didn't start the war, nor was the war truly about slavery. The Confederate states seceded and would have been perfectly happy to go on living their lives. But the Union encroached on their territory — not to free the slaves, but simply because the federal government wasn't willing to give up control over those territories. Remember, the Emancipation Proclamation wasn't issued until more than a year later, and it actually offered to let the rebel states keep their slaves if they gave up their claims of sovereignty. So in fact, not fighting the war would have let them keep their slaves. But it would have meant submitting to what they viewed as a foreign government.

Originally Posted by wallinbl View Post
That's f**ked up. Free the slaves, pick a different issue to stand up for states rights over.
The North wasn't all that strongly in favor of freeing the slaves either. People were still pretty racist all over. It's just that the Northern economy had developed in a way that was less dependent on slavery (again, this wasn't any kind of moral stand — it just worked out that way), so they started to ignore the needs of the slave states. Rather than really trying to end slavery, they were making moves that didn't stop slavery but nonetheless made the Southern states feel that their economy was being threatened and their well-being was in the hands of a group of Northern states that didn't have their best interests at heart. If the North had come up with an actual, sensible plan to end slavery without screwing over half the country, I think things might have gone differently.
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Sep 21, 2009, 03:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
The South didn't start the war
Except that they provoked it and then went on to fire the first shots at Fort Sumner, but yeah, beyond that, they were innocent victims in the whole thing.
     
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Sep 21, 2009, 03:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
People were still pretty racist all over.
...Including, one supposes, the black slave owners such as Anthony Johnson.
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Sep 21, 2009, 03:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
...Including, one supposes, the black slave owners such as Anthony Johnson.
There was a black guy with slaves? Why didn't anybody say that before? That makes it ok then.
     
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Sep 21, 2009, 03:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
There was a black guy with slaves? Why didn't anybody say that before? That makes it ok then.
Just correcting Chuck's assertion of "racism". Seems slavery was more of a way of life rather than a purely racist thing.
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Sep 21, 2009, 03:46 PM
 
It's just as trite to say that the Civil War wasn't truly about slavery as it is to say that it was about slavery. There were a number of factors involved -- at the most basic level, the tremendous shift in demographics and political power that made Southern politicians increasingly irrelevant -- but slavery was the primary issue through which these disagreements were expressed, and it was the thing that secessionist leaders most often cited. Slavery enabled an agricultural elite to maintain their political power amid widespread poverty and subsistence agriculture among the rest of the free population in the region, while at the same time for the southern states probably set economic development (and population growth) back decades relative to the North. Thus it was integral to the self-identity of the secessionist leaders who felt their government was abandoning them, while simultaneously giving the North the ability to put their backs against the wall in the first place and forcing the South into desperate decisions.

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Sep 21, 2009, 03:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Except that they provoked it and then went on to fire the first shots at Fort Sumner, but yeah, beyond that, they were innocent victims in the whole thing.
Fort Sumter was in South Carolina's territory.
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Sep 21, 2009, 03:52 PM
 
The fight was always about states rights. Forget your spin and BS history, read the newspapers from the 1840's and later.
     
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Sep 21, 2009, 03:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Just correcting Chuck's assertion of "racism". Seems slavery was more of a way of life rather than a purely racist thing.
While you have a point, it doesn't contradict the reality that racism was rampant. And not a subtle for of it either- there was a general belief that africans (and indigenous americans for that matter- to piggyback on one of your earlier themes) were though of as less than human by huge swaths of the population- in America and Europe. Additionally, many who accepted them as fully human thought of them as humans of limited capability. That's racism.
     
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Sep 21, 2009, 03:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
The fight was always about states rights. Forget your spin and BS history, read the newspapers from the 1840's and later.
Yes, especially slaveholders' rights, as expressly noted by the governments of South Carolina, Mississippi, Georgia, and Texas when they issued their formal declarations of secession (and by Jefferson Davis when he left Congress).

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Sep 21, 2009, 04:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
The fight was always about states rights. Forget your spin and BS history, read the newspapers from the 1840's and later.
I quote from a speech by Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederacy, given in Georgia, 21 March 1861.
Originally Posted by Alexander Stephens
But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other -- though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution -- African slavery as it exists amongst us -- the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution.
So the VP of the CSA believed it was about Slavery. Seems pretty convincing to me.
     
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Sep 21, 2009, 04:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Forget your spin and BS history.
"Forget their spin, listen to my spin! Blaaaaarrrrggg!!!!"

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Sep 21, 2009, 04:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
While you have a point, it doesn't contradict the reality that racism was rampant.
Was?

Your owners (the ones you submit your 1040 to) seem to still engage in a bit of racism here and there. For example, someone born in the mainland UK is ineligible for the green card lottery. Unless they have Irish parents. Which suggests that your owners believe that people with Irish blood are less likely to be able to immigrate to the US under their own steam. Which suggests that your owners think those with Irish blood are less capable than those with English/Welsh/Scottish blood.
Which is racism. Right here, right now.

Ain't it about time you guys started looking at Old Glory in the same way you look at the CSA jack? They're all bastards* - but some are simply more honest about being so.
* Governments. Including those dicks in Westminster.
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Sep 21, 2009, 04:15 PM
 
Living in the Deep South, I see a lot of Confederate Flag waving, and about 95% of it seems to be from innocent-minded, proud of the South types. My friend Kaleb wears two or three t-shirts with confederate flags on them to play basketball in, and most of the friends that he meets up to do this are black. They know Kaleb, and know he's just a proud Southern guy, so it doesn't bother them at all.

There are a few racist morons who fly huge flags from their trucks and you can tell it's for the wrong reasons, but most people roll their eyes at them and ignore them.

I think more white people out to prove out progressively minded they are happen to be the ones most insulted by the flag.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 21, 2009, 04:15 PM
 
People who are into the confederate flag always struck be as being afflicted with sour grapes.
     
SpaceMonkey
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Sep 21, 2009, 04:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy
Your owners (the ones you submit your 1040 to) seem to still engage in a bit of racism here and there. For example, someone born in the mainland UK is ineligible for the green card lottery. Unless they have Irish parents. Which suggests that your owners believe that people with Irish blood are less likely to be able to immigrate to the US under their own steam. Which suggests that your owners think those with Irish blood are less capable than those with English/Welsh/Scottish blood.
Which is racism. Right here, right now.
I think that's the Irish lobby more than anything else, and the belief that we have a "special relationship" with Ireland because of their poor, tired, huddled masses etc.

"One ticket to Washington, please. I have a date with destiny."
     
design219  (op)
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Sep 21, 2009, 04:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
with English/Welsh/Scottish blood.
Which is racism. Right here, right now.
I though all you guys were mostly Caucasian.
__________________________________________________

My stupid iPhone game: Nesen Probe, it's rather old, annoying and pointless, but it's free.
Was free. Now it's gone. Never to be seen again.
Off to join its brother and sister apps that could not
keep up with the ever updating iOS. RIP Nesen Probe.
     
SpaceMonkey
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Sep 21, 2009, 04:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
People who are into the confederate flag always struck be as being afflicted with sour grapes.
Indeed. Hence my treason remark. If they want to declare their allegiance to the side that lost, well...

"One ticket to Washington, please. I have a date with destiny."
     
Jawbone54
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Sep 21, 2009, 04:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
People who are into the confederate flag always struck be as being afflicted with sour grapes.
Unless you've grown up in the South, it's hard to understand the mentality of those who fly the flag good-naturedly. I don't think that the aforementioned Lynrd Skynrd were mindless racists; they were just Southern boys.

Part of it has to do with the seemingly prevalent mentality from West Coast, East Coast, Northern, and foreign types who see the South as a group of mindless, uneducated, racist hillbillies. We don't like being looked down on, and the Confederate Flag, for better or worse, is often used to show a little pride in who we are.

Once again, here's a Southerner I met along the road one day, took pictures of, and then had lunch with (from my Flickr):



He spent over an hour at lunch telling me how the Confederate Flag was misunderstood and that all people from the Southern states should fly it proudly.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 21, 2009, 04:30 PM
 
The need to differentiate yourselves is the sour grapes. Apparently you guys aren't happy enough being identified as Americans.

I'm not associating the flag with racism (though there are times that'd be accurate). I associate with an inability to let go of the past. If you're so proud of where you live, fly your state's flag. WHy don't they do that instead?
     
 
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