[Super Mario]

Tonight on BBC Panorama they will be showing "Scientology and Me' a controversial exposé on $$cientology involving spying, stalking, brainwashing, manipulation and finally shouting when the BBC reporter succumbs to the pressure and breaks down. $$cientologists are already using his breakdown as an example of an attack on their "religion" and are manipulating public opinion about it on YouTube.

Let's get cracking and defend Sweeney on YouTube!

Another exposé 'Undercover Mosque' on Wahabbism was shown on TV too. It goes to show how $$$$$audi clerics manipulate Muslims to commit terrorism to maintain conflict with the West which then causes the price of oil to increase thus enriching $$$$$audi Arabia's elite even more. The whole series can be seen on YouTube.

YouTube - Dispatches - Undercover Mosque (1 of 6)

[Dakarʒ]

$$ ≠ clever

[osiris]

Isn't there only one $ in $audi?

[Dakarʒ]

Apparently one dollar sign did not properly denote the situation for him.

[osiris]

Maybe he stutters.

[Mithras]

$$uper Mariö

[Super Mario]

The richer they get the more $ they get. 5 x $ is the maximum.

$$$$$audi Arabia
$$$$icrosoft
$$$uper Mario.....I have been the cash cow for Nintendo.
$$cientology
$tan Lee

[Dakarʒ]

Come on now, Microsoft doesn't even begin with an 's'!

[osiris]

$$u $$u $$udio

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Come on now, Microsoft doesn't even begin with an 's'!

I had to bend some rules

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by osiris 

$$u $$u $$udio

By Gene$i$

[OldManMac]

$cientology is $illy and $tupid.

[lil'babykitten]

I just saw the documentary - they are some strangely behaved people. They followed the BBC crew everywhere, hired PIs to watch them in hotels and follow them on the roads. wtf?!

And if asked to comment on suggestions that scientology is a cult, they lose it completely.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten 

And if asked to comment on suggestions that scientology is a cult, they lose it completely.

Robots blow a fuse when they try to process too much info in the brain CPU.

The docu should be on YouTube soon.

[besson3c]

$teve Guttenberg

[turtle777]

$hit !

-t

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

By Gene$i$

actually, just Phil Collin$

[red rocket]

I saw the programme.
I listened to hours of debate about it on the radio.

Sweeney is an ass. If anything, I have more respect for Scientologists now than I did before. It's not much, but it's more than I have for John Sweeney.

This was journalism at its worst. Some judge in the eighties says CoSc is a sinister cult, and John Sweeney uses that as an excuse for constant attack and insults.

In response, the Scientology guy refuses to indulge Sweeney by responding to his allegations, and treats him like the offensive dirt bag he is.

In a way, it was amusing to see Sweeney blow his lid like that. Exactly what the other guy wanted, provoke your opponent until he starts shouting like an idiot.

[analogika]

No sympathy for Scientology. None at all.

His reports of psychoterror, being shadowed, observed, enquired upon at his neighbors', etc. are, unfortunately, standard m.o., apparently.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

I saw the programme.
I listened to hours of debate about it on the radio.

Sweeney is an ass.

I'd like to see if you can stop yourself from yelling for 10 seconds when someone has been stalking you for two weeks and shouting in your face. For now I'll think of you as a $$$cientologist plant

Here's one for all closet $$$cientologists trying to manipulate opinion about Sweeney's few second outburst - L. Ron Hubbard was a psychopathic sociopathic, schizophrenic liar, who loved kiddie porn, spoke like he had half a dysfunctional brain and wrote the worst sci-fi including his religion.

C'mon and stalk me if you can Xenu

[Dakarʒ]

Looks like the scientologists have been promoted. Three '$' now.

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

I'd like to see if you can stop yourself from yelling for 10 seconds when someone has been stalking you for two weeks and shouting in your face. For now I'll think of you as a $$$cientologist plant

Thirty seconds.

And actually, I could. I'm excellent at controlling my emotions.

Originally Posted by Super Mario

Here's one for all closet $$$cientologists trying to manipulate opinion about Sweeney's few second outburst - L. Ron Hubbard was a psychopathic sociopathic, schizophrenic liar, who loved kiddie porn, spoke like he had half a dysfunctional brain and wrote the worst sci-fi including his religion.

C'mon and stalk me if you can Xenu

Have you read any of his fiction? I haven't, but I do know that it is held in relatively high regard by quite a few SF writers and readers.

He's also created the ‘Writers of the Future’ contest, quite arguably a very good thing.

The Scientologists played Sweeney like a fiddle. If you think it's normal or mature or professional for a grown man to allow himself to be manipulated in this manner, you and I have very different ideas about what normal, mature, and professional mean.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

Have you read any of his fiction? I haven't, but I do know that it is held in relatively high regard by quite a few SF writers and readers.

Not. One. (Who's not a Scientologist.)

His stuff really is third-rate.

I mean, just read this summary of the basic premise of Scientology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu

[macintologist]

If any of you wish to hear, at the very least, both sides of the story, I recommend watching the documentary Scientologists made which shows footage that Sweeney never did

YouTube - BBC 1/3 - Scientology Documentary on BBC Panorama program

YouTube - BBC 2/3 - Scientology Documentary on BBC Panorama program

YouTube - BBC 3/3 - Scientology Documentary on BBC Panorama program

[Super Mario]

Thanks Macintologist. I am even more disturbed by $$$$$cientology now.

I don't know of any other religion that creates documentaries on reporters.

I don't know of any other religion that charges a lot of money over a long time for members to find out what exactly the religion's beliefs are.

I don't know of any other religion that can't explain their beliefs...for free.

I don't know of any other religion that stalks people mercilessly around the world using high tech equipment and bribed policemen.

I don't know of any other religion that digs into people's pasts to criminalize them and make them look like paedophiles.

I don't know of any other religion that sends teams to disaster zones to convert victims and leach more money out of people who are already in pain.

This must be a cult!

So I'll add $$$$$cientology to the list of global threats which include Wahab terrorists, anarchists, Mara Salvatrucha, global warming, etc

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

Thanks Macintologist. I am even more disturbed by $$$$$cientology now.

I don't know of any other religion that creates documentaries on reporters.

I don't know of any other religion that charges a lot of money over a long time for members to find out what exactly the religion's beliefs are.

I don't know of any other religion that can't explain their beliefs...for free.

I don't know of any other religion that stalks people mercilessly around the world using high tech equipment and bribed policemen.

I don't know of any other religion that digs into people's pasts to criminalize them and make them look like paedophiles.

I don't know of any other religion that sends teams to disaster zones to convert victims and leach more money out of people who are already in pain.

This must be a cult!

So I'll add $$$$$cientology to the list of global threats which include Wahab terrorists, anarchists, Mara Salvatrucha, global warming, etc

Careful, Super Mario.

Scientology know where you live.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

I don't know of any other religion that creates documentaries on reporters.

There's the kicker.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie 

Careful, Super Mario.

Scientology know where you live.

I live in Thailand. They can fly over and I'll snipe them from the bushes Rambo style

[osiris]

This sounds interesting, I'll watch it after my dental appointment.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

Thanks Macintologist. I am even more disturbed by $$$$$cientology now.

I don't know of any other religion that creates documentaries on reporters.

I don't know of any other religion that charges a lot of money over a long time for members to find out what exactly the religion's beliefs are.

I don't know of any other religion that can't explain their beliefs...for free.

I don't know of any other religion that stalks people mercilessly around the world using high tech equipment and bribed policemen.

I don't know of any other religion that digs into people's pasts to criminalize them and make them look like paedophiles.

I don't know of any other religion that sends teams to disaster zones to convert victims and leach more money out of people who are already in pain.

This must be a cult!

So I'll add $$$$$cientology to the list of global threats which include Wahab terrorists, anarchists, Mara Salvatrucha, global warming, etc

You forget Narconon, which turns drug addicts into Scientology addicts and receives state money and massive benefits in many countries for being "charity".

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by osiris 

This sounds interesting, I'll watch it after my dental appointment.

You poor son-uva-beotch.

[Super Mario]

Fortunately a good investigation of $$$$$cientology was done in 1967 when L. Ron was still alive to have his sanity questioned and the cult weren't organised enough to bully and stalk. Watch it here http://youtube.com/watch?v=L_w-YWwC1lI

[analogika]

Thanks for that!

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Not. One. (Who's not a Scientologist.)

His stuff really is third-rate.

I mean, just read this summary of the basic premise of Scientology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu

Actually, there are plenty of eminent figures in the science fiction community who have fond opinions of Hubbard's fiction.

__________________________
Here's L. Sprague de Camp writing about Hubbard:
[test]
AS A WRITER, Hubbard had some of Robert E. Howard's gifts: a natural bent for storytelling; a fine sense of pace, color, and action; and, more than Howard, an ebullient sense of humor. One must admit that, whatever their faults, few stories furnish more pure fun than some of Hubbard's Unknown novels.

Hubbard also suffered from Howard's faults of slapdash haste and carelessness, which clutter his tales with damaging crudities and inconsistencies like those of his character Horace Hackett. If he had taken more time and trouble. . . But then he would been somebody else, with different faults and virtues. And those who have made Scientology into a formidable Church Militant would have had to seek their transcendental wisdom elsewhere.
[/test]http://www.xenu.net/archive/oca/elron.html

That's the L. Sprague de Camp, author of over 120 Science Fiction and Fantasy Books and several hundred short stories, well-known for many non-fiction works in history, science, and biography.
Among his numerous awards is The Gandalf, the Grand Master Award for Lifetime Achievement in Fantasy, presented in 1976. Two years later Sprague received from the Science Fiction Writers of America their Grand Master Nebula Award. In 1995, he won the first Sidewise Award for Alternate History Lifetime Achievement Award.

He's comparing Hubbard favourably with legendary writer Robert E. Howard, creator of Conan the Barbarian and the entire Sword & Sorcery genre.

Not a Scientologist, far from it.

__________________________
There's Orson Scott Card, writing about Mission Earth,

[test]
"You will lose sleep. You will miss appointments. If you don't force yourself to set it down and talk to your family from time to time, you may be looking for a new place to live. Reading the Invaders Plan is simply the most fun you can have by yourself."
[/test]

OSC is not a Scientologist. He's a Mormon. That said, he does have a few awards to his name:

1978; John W. Campbell Award for Best New Writer; from the World Science Fiction Convention
1981; Songmaster; Hamilton-Brackett Memorial Award 81
1984; Saints; named Book of the Year by Association for Mormon Letters
1985; Ender's Game; Nebula Award 85, Hugo Award 86, Hamilton-Brackett Award 86, SF Chronicle Readers Poll Award 86
1987; Speaker for the Dead; Nebula Award 86, Hugo Award 87, Locus Award 87, SF Chronicle Readers Poll Award 87
1987; "Eye for Eye"; Hugo award 88; "Japanese Hugo" 89
1987; "Hatrack River"; Nebula finalist 86, Hugo finalist 87, World Fantasy Award winner 87
1988; Seventh Son, Hugo finalist 88, World Fantasy finalist 88, Mythopoeic Society Award 88, Locus Award (best fantasy novel) 88
1989; Hugo & Nebula Finalist; Red Prophet
1991; Hugo Award; How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy (Writer's Digest Books, 90)
1995; Locus Award for Best Fantasy Novel; for Alvin Journeyman

__________________________
There's Anne McCaffrey, iconic fantasy and science fiction writer, calling Mission Earth
[test]
"Marvelous satire by a master of adventure."
[/test]

She is not a Scientologist, either, as far as I know. Lapsed Catholic, broadly anti‑religious, judging by her books and some interviews I've read.

__________________________
There's British Fantasy Award-winning author and 1980‑94 editor of The Year's Best Horror Stories, Karl Edward Wagner (again, not a Scientologist), who cited Hubbard's 1940 novel Final Blackout as one of the thirteen best science-fiction horror novels.

__________________________

Nobody's running around claiming LRH's writings are high literature, but as a 1930's‑1950's pulp writer, his status is legendary. Evidently, some also enjoy his later stuff. The HubbardAwards (WotF) have proved to be a great launchpad for many fine new writers and artists for over 20 years, and are held in high regard by the SF community.

It's one thing to criticise the current organisation, but to ignorantly piss on the literary career of somebody who has contributed as much as Lafayette Ronald Hubbard is just retarded.

As for your supposed ‘premise of Scientology’, the Xenu story is not it.

I know anti‑Scientology fanatics try to portray it as such in an attempt to bolster their position. I'm guessing that's because a lot of the more vociferous critics are in fact fundamentalist Christians intellectually incapable of attacking the actual premise, Dianetics.

Here's what another well‑known writer and non‑Scientologist, Jerry Pournelle, has to say about the history of Scientology:

[test]
Like many theories and techniques of psychological self-help, Hubbard's Dianetics "worked" in the sense that you could easily see improvements in those who stuck the course. Of course you could also see improvements in patients who stuck the course in almost any non-insane system of therapy, from Freud's authoritarian and structured analysis with the god-like therapist, to Rogerian non-directed therapy, to Glasser's Reality Therapy, to Reich's psycho-drama if not his later "orgone energy" therapy. Dianetic auditing worked better than many of the more orthodox shrink programs, and its practitioners didn't need expensive college degrees and years of psychoanalytic therapy before they could practice it. It became quite popular, and that was its undoing.

The American medical establishment came down hard on Hubbard. Lawsuits drained his profits, and a host of detractors made destroying him a campaign objective; if Wilhelm Reich or Karen Horney had been subjected to such a campaign they'd have gone under, as indeed would almost anyone else. (Recall that Ignatz Semmelweiss, the Austro-Hungarian physician who discovered that childbed fever was caused by physicians and midwives not washing their hands between patients and thus spreading salmonella was locked in a madhouse by his colleagues).

Hubbard reacted by founding a church on the theory that the First Amendment would protect him. At this point I lose track, because I haven't followed the vicissitudes of the story, and I have no real knowledge of what Scientologists believe or purport to believe. I have heard stories of a rather fanciful pre-history of the human race, but how much of that practitioners believe, and how much is a smoke screen I do not know: like the Druze religion, apparently only the adepts know the actual arcana at the heart of the belief system. If that sounds a bit like gnosticism, I expect the similarity is intended.
[/test]
http://www.jerrypournelle.com/pictur...ml#scientology

[pooka]

You're creeping me the **** out.

[Super Mario]

$$$$$cientologist in the house!!!

Just watch this video again and again because it is too funny. L. Ron is so ****ed up crazy that when questioned about his Swiss bank account he contradicts himself three times in one sentence and lied about his marriages too. Successful writer my ass. Great myth maker yes. There's a difference. The latter is someone who spreads lies.

[Doofy]

In other news, your very own Uncle Doof now has his own philosophical church. Send $500,000* via PayPal and I'll give you the first secret teaching.

(* Scientology is cheap. Pah! $19,500 for OT III? Can't be worth knowing if it's that cheap. I'll bet it doesn't guarantee boobies, like the Church of Uncle Doof does.)

[LegendaryPinkOx]

Welcome to the First Church of Appliantology! The
WHITE ZONE is for loading and unloading only!

L. Ron: A *Latent Appliance Fetishist*
Is a person who *refuses to admit to his or herself*
that sexual gratification can only be achieved
Through the use of MACHINES...
Get the picture?

Joe: Are you telling me I should come out of the closet now
Mr. Ron?

L. Ron: No, my son! You must go *into* THE CLOSET
And you will have A lot of fun!
That's where they all live
So if you want an
Appliance to love you
You'll have to go in there
'N' get you one

Joe: Well...that seems simple enough....

L. Ron: Yes, but if you want a really GOOD one,
You'll have to learn a foreign language...

Joe: German, for instance?

L. Ron: That's right...
A lot of really cute ones come from over there!
(fifty bucks, please).

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

Actually, there are plenty of eminent figures in the science fiction community who have fond opinions of Hubbard's fiction.

Myself, I couldn't care less. I've never read Hubbard's fiction and don't plan to.

OSC is not a Scientologist. He's a Mormon.

Well, if that isn't ironic...

It's one thing to criticise the current organisation, but to ignorantly piss on the literary career of somebody who has contributed as much as Lafayette Ronald Hubbard is just retarded.

His first name is Lafayette?

As for your supposed ‘premise of Scientology’, the Xenu story is not it.

I know anti‑Scientology fanatics try to portray it as such in an attempt to bolster their position. I'm guessing that's because a lot of the more vociferous critics are in fact fundamentalist Christians intellectually incapable of attacking the actual premise, Dianetics.

While I'm sure fundamentalists hate Scientology, that's par for the course with them. They hate everybody.

Actually, the most vociferous opponents are anyone with a sensible opinion of mental health matters. Dianetics/Scientology is snake-oil, plain and simple.

I hope you've not been taken in by these hucksters, red.

[Graviton]

After making a point of watching the show, I don't blame him for blowing his top. Personally I would have knocked that Agent Smith Scientemololology guy flat out.

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Actually, the most vociferous opponents are anyone with a sensible opinion of mental health matters. Dianetics/Scientology is snake-oil, plain and simple.

I hope you've not been taken in by these hucksters, red.

So, by extension, you are claiming that I don't have a ‘sensible opinion on mental health matters’. Why?

What makes you sure your opinion is more sensible than mine?

Who defines what a ‘sensible’ opinion on mental health matters is?

Mass media? Establishment psychiatrists?

I've read enough philosophical and psychological texts over the years to realise that ‘sensible’ is a subjective term. ‘Mental health’ is arbitrarily defined, as is ‘mental illness’.

Take, for example, John Sweeney's hysterical outburst. Do you think it is indicative of a ‘healthy mind’? I don't. I think the guy could do with some form of counselling or treatment to address his temper issues.

Or take the example of Justice Latey of the High Court of London calling Scientology a ‘cult, […] both immoral and socially obnoxious.... It is corrupt, sinister, and dangerous’.

Observe the language used. Does that self‑righteous, moralising, religiously infused phrasing say ‘healthy mind’ to you? To me, it is evocative of mediæval witch ‘trials’.

The word ‘cult’, for one thing. The mainstream, ‘good’, religions keep referring to anyone apart from themselves as a ‘cult’. Devious bastards, seeing as—by definition—they themselves are members of a cult.
http://www.antipas.org/magazine/editor/cult.html
http://www.holysmoke.org/wicca/cult-rwc.htm

Now, ‘immoral’. It's clearly a very loaded term, considering that morality is entirely subjective.

‘Socially obnoxious’ is even more extreme: ‘obnoxious’ meaning ‘odiously or disgustingly objectionable’ according to Webster's. So it's objectionable on the grounds of deserving or evoking hatred (Lat. odium: hatred) or disgust from a social perspective? That's confusing cause and effect.

‘Corrupt’ = perverted, ‘Sinister’ = suggesting or threatening evil (from Lat. sinister, ‘left, unlucky’, from the old tradition of treating left‑handed people as abominations)

Oh yes, and ‘dangerous’, of course. Being so evil, deserving hatred and disgust, it would be, wouldn't it?



Quite frankly, I've looked far and wide for some sort of rational criticism against the CoSc, but all I come across on the internet seems to be written by people speaking from some crazy moralising religious perspective. If someone can come up with a sensible explanation of why all the elements that Hubbard has cobbled his Dianetics system together from should be discarded, I'd really like to hear their justification.

Hubbard, lout that he was, didn't invent Dianetics out of thin air. Most of it was appropriated from general semantics, and the rest is mainly a forced syncretism of divers bits and pieces of Thelema and placebo technology, with some of his own mythology thrown in later on to make Scientology seem more religious to the already accepted religions with their silly gods and demons, and all the other bullshit.

So, no, I have not been ‘taken in by these hucksters’, it's merely that I understand the difference between a person's writing and his other activities, and have some expertise in the mindfuck systems Hubbard has syncreted his own from.

That, and I'm irritated by the arrogant intolerance of a deeply hypocritical society that, on the one hand, blithely accepts and endorses idiotic behaviour like praying as acceptable, whilst, on the other hand, it eagerly and blindly jumps on any bandwagon affording it the opportunity to join a witch‑hunt condemning any system of thought or self‑analysis its masters (news media, priests, politicians) have conditioned them to hate.

‘Reason’ and ‘sensible opinions’ are mind traps in their own right, if you can't work them out for yourself, and check what might be fucked up with the framework you've been thinking in.

[Graviton]

For the record, I'm not religious. I think practising Dianetics, praying to Christ, or squeezing a goats testicles, are all likely to give you the same result. Well, Scientology will extract a lot of money from your bank account, sitting in a room talking to yourself is kinda lonely and the goat might kick your face off. But apart from that they are all pretty much the same.

Maybe the US should start giving Astrologers and Tarot card readers tax breaks too. If only they could afford the lawyers.

[Super Mario]

Hubbard, lout that he was, didn't invent Dianetics out of thin air.

That's correct. He pulled it out of his ass along with Xenu

Take, for example, John Sweeney's hysterical outburst.

Reading most comments on every discussion forum, news site and YouTube, most admitted they would react the same way if stalked all over the place by a short aggressive Tom Cruise wannabe

[Super Mario]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/fishman/home.html

This is the famous Fishman Affidavit. To explain why is has become so famous, I'll give you some more information. And please take a look at the Scientology Litigation Kit, where I list the materials used for my defense and the lawsuit materials (lawsuits, plea, defense, rulings) and at postings and news about the Dutch Protest.

The Church of Scientology (or: CoS; or: Co$, as some of their opponents call it) sells its followers expensive courses which, if students study them carefully, are supposed to set them free ('clear' them). A former Scientology member, Steven Fishman, was brought before court because he committed several crimes in order to get the money to pay for these courses. Scientology urged him to get the money any which way he could. According to Fishman, they also assigned him to kill somebody, and failing that, ordered him to commit suicide. In an interview for Time Magazine, Fishman relayed those stories and blamed Scientology for his crimes. Scientology sued him for slander.

When Fishman was then brought to court, he used parts of Scientology-documents to prove he had been brainwashed by the Church. These Scientology documents thereby became public material: anybody could go to the court library and read them. The Church, fearing that its sacred secrets would be revealed, had some of their people going to the library every day to borrow these documents, thereby preventing other people (read: non-Scientologists) from reading them. Nevertheless, the Fishman Affidavit got copied (it was also available through the clerk of the court, for a mere $36.50). Somebody retrieved the affidavit via the clerk, scanned it, and posted it to the net. The Fishman Affidavit has been travelling on the Internet ever since.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

So, by extension, you are claiming that I don't have a ‘sensible opinion on mental health matters’. Why?

What makes you sure your opinion is more sensible than mine?

Who defines what a ‘sensible’ opinion on mental health matters is?

Mass media? Establishment psychiatrists?

I've read enough philosophical and psychological texts over the years to realise that ‘sensible’ is a subjective term. ‘Mental health’ is arbitrarily defined, as is ‘mental illness’.

I have to come back to sort all this crap later.

Take, for example, John Sweeney's hysterical outburst. Do you think it is indicative of a ‘healthy mind’?

You'd judge a man as mentally unhealthy because he lost his temper? Only Vulcans could be consisted "mentally healthy" under that kind of standard.

Or take the example of Justice Latey of the High Court of London calling Scientology a ‘cult, […] both immoral and socially obnoxious.... It is corrupt, sinister, and dangerous’.

Observe the language used. Does that self‑righteous, moralising, religiously infused phrasing say ‘healthy mind’ to you?

Yes.

And that's two people you've never even met, though you're ready to dismiss them as mentally unhealthy.

Now, ‘immoral’. It's clearly a very loaded term, considering that morality is entirely subjective.

Entirely subjective? Really? So rape or racism isn't objectively immoral?

Quite frankly, I've looked far and wide for some sort of rational criticism against the CoSc, but all I come across on the internet seems to be written by people speaking from some crazy moralising religious perspective.

Quite frankly, you've not tried very hard.

If someone can come up with a sensible explanation of why all the elements that Hubbard has cobbled his Dianetics system together from should be discarded, I'd really like to hear their justification.

Because it's unscientific rubbish.

‘Reason’ and ‘sensible opinions’ are mind traps in their own right, if you can't work them out for yourself, and check what might be fucked up with the framework you've been thinking in.

Whatever that's supposed to mean.