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Quran Burning by Floridian Church
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Jawbone54
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Sep 7, 2010, 12:13 PM
 
Link to WSJ Article

KABUL—The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan said the planned burning of Qurans on Sept. 11 by a small Florida church could put the lives of American troops in danger and damage the war effort.
Hundreds of Afghans attended a demonstration in Kabul on Monday to protest the plans of Florida pastor Terry Jones, who has said he will burn copies of Islam's holy book to mark the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Afghan protesters chanted "death to America," and speakers called on the U.S. to withdraw its troops. Some protesters threw rocks at a passing military convoy.
These people are not Christians.

Matthew 5:44 - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
This is a small, 50-member church that decided to do this, probably to drum up attention. This isn't Christian behavior, and plenty of Christians (including my pastor) are publicly condemning it already.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 7, 2010, 12:24 PM
 
I really don't care, either way.
     
turtle777
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Sep 7, 2010, 12:25 PM
 
My personal opinion: the pastor is a fu*king idiot.
My professional opinion: the pastor is a fu*king moron.
My Christian opinion: the pastor is a fu*king fool.

Well, he should be in Heaven soon, I'm sure the assasination squads have already been dispatched.

-t
     
BadKosh
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Sep 7, 2010, 01:05 PM
 
Lets keep giving the Muslims a pass on their poor behavior. When they grow up perhaps I'll take them seriously.
     
turtle777
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Sep 7, 2010, 01:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Lets keep giving the Muslims a pass on their poor behavior. When they grow up perhaps I'll take them seriously.
Let's leave the Muslimes and their reaction out for a moment.

Do you consider this pastor to show good behavior, like someone who already HAS grown up ?

-t
     
BadKosh
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Sep 7, 2010, 01:16 PM
 
No. But his point is valid. Do you see Christians wanting to kill non-Christians for a bible burning? Riots because of a rumor of such an event?

Perhaps you should be visiting the immature behavior of Muslims.
     
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Sep 7, 2010, 01:27 PM
 
For the record.

I, as a christian, and an American condemn the propsed actions of this knucklehead.
     
turtle777
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Sep 7, 2010, 01:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
No. But his point is valid. Do you see Christians wanting to kill non-Christians for a bible burning? Riots because of a rumor of such an event?

Perhaps you should be visiting the immature behavior of Muslims.
But the point here is NOT how Muslims react. We know they overreact.

The point is that this pastor is a f*cking idiot that unnecessarily provokes them.

And, btw, speaking of burning things: there are enough Americans that would kill (or at least severly injur) someone burning an American flag on American soil.

Can you imagine someone burning an American flag at Ground Zero, who would be allowed to do so w/o any physical harm ?
(So much for how advanced some people here in the good old USofA are when it comes to mature reactions.)

-t
     
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Sep 7, 2010, 01:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
But his point is valid.
Mission accomplished. He has now demonstrated the point that some Christians can just be just as moronic as some Muslims.
     
turtle777
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Sep 7, 2010, 01:35 PM
 
^^^ what he said.

-t
     
BadKosh
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Sep 7, 2010, 01:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Mission accomplished. He has now demonstrated the point that some Christians can just be just as moronic as some Muslims.
Except you missed the point. Christians aren't beheading, killing and such as standard operating procedures because of a burned bible. When are we supposed to see some restraint from the Muslims? If they can't play well with others, why allow them to travel to other countries? Why should they turn every place they settle/invade into chaotic crap holes?
     
sek929
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Sep 7, 2010, 02:00 PM
 
Muslims aren't doing that stuff en masse either. You hear about it because of the righty news outlets (see what i did there) but that doesn't mean that all 1.5+ Billion Muslims are beheadin' till the cows come home.
     
turtle777
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Sep 7, 2010, 03:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
When are we supposed to see some restraint from the Muslims? If they can't play well with others, why allow them to travel to other countries? Why should they turn every place they settle/invade into chaotic crap holes?
You are not making any sense.

WE KNEW some (few) Muslims were vocal, and would announce to kill anyone who would do anything they disagreeed with. What's news about that ?

The ONLY thing that has happened is that some idiot Christian came along, behaved as stupid and unrestraint as those Muslims, and now you're fu*cking wondering why the Muslims don't show MORE restraint than before ?



-t
     
BadKosh
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Sep 7, 2010, 04:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Muslims aren't doing that stuff en masse either. You hear about it because of the righty news outlets (see what i did there) but that doesn't mean that all 1.5+ Billion Muslims are beheadin' till the cows come home.
And they sure aren't telling their own jack asses to STFU either.
     
BadKosh
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Sep 7, 2010, 04:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
But the point here is NOT how Muslims react. We know they overreact.

The point is that this pastor is a f*cking idiot that unnecessarily provokes them.

And, btw, speaking of burning things: there are enough Americans that would kill (or at least severly injur) someone burning an American flag on American soil.

Can you imagine someone burning an American flag at Ground Zero, who would be allowed to do so w/o any physical harm ?
(So much for how advanced some people here in the good old USofA are when it comes to mature reactions.)

-t
Strawman.
     
turtle777
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Sep 7, 2010, 04:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Strawman.
It's not. But since this is a much more involved discussion than just your regular ramblings, I don't expect you to understand. Carry on.

-t
     
Hawkeye_a
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Sep 8, 2010, 12:15 AM
 
No offense to anyone here, but i personally am sick and tired of people bending over backwards to not "offend" muslims. In the media, on a daily basis, i see extremely politically incorrect content with regard to various other world religious institutions.... and the reaction has been for the most part... moot.

As a person who grew up in the middle east, and watched and heard Christianity and Judaism desecrated more often, with absolutely no criticism from any within their community, and something the "left" would probably disregard as "cultural differences", i think a little perspective is is order.

Whether it's a cartoon in a newspaper, a skit on TV, or the burning of papyrus/paper..... the problem is more with the perception of the action than the action itself. IMHO. It's just paper+ink(or a cartoon or song, etc). They need to get over themselves and give up their campaign for "special treatment".

To the apologists ...... the next time Catholics and Jews are offended in Family Guy and South Park, i'd like to see your opinions regarding the insensitivity, inappropriateness and moronic creators of those shows, because i'm sure somewhere in the world there are Catholics and Jews who are genuinely offended.

Oh and in an idealistic world no one would offend anyone else, for any reason. Now.... get back to reality, and stop making exceptions for overly sensitive and cranky groups who throw tantrums over cartoons.

PS>> Apparently the burning of a book justifies more protest than the stoning/whipping of a woman. A culture that prioritized in this way needs to reexamine it's laws/code-of-conduct/etc.
     
turtle777
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Sep 8, 2010, 12:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
No offense to anyone here, but i personally am sick and tired of people bending over backwards to not "offend" muslims..
I really don't see how this is relevant in this context.

Are you saying that expecting from that pastor NOT to burn the Quran would require him bending over backwards to not offend Muslims ?

Is burning the Quran such a normal, daily thing that it would inconvenience the pastor if he would NOT do it ?

I'd say that in this case, this guy is bending over backwards (i.e. doing whatever it takes) to achieve the exact opposite of "not offending the Muslims". He does something extraordinary, going out of his way to offend.

-t
     
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Sep 8, 2010, 03:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
^^^ what he said.

-t
Yup.
     
ebuddy
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Sep 8, 2010, 07:18 AM
 
First, I think the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan should be more concerned with military failures that place the lives of American troops in danger and damage the war effort, particularly as this action has incurred some of the bloodiest months to date having nothing to do with what is or is not going on in the US. He'd also do well to remember these are among the rights of citizens he and thousands of others are supposedly over there fighting for. You have the right to be stupid and insensitive in the US be it a KKK march down Harlem avenue, an Islamic cultural center near ground zero, or burning others' religious books.

Second, this pastor either is or is being a belligerent moron.
ebuddy
     
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Sep 8, 2010, 07:25 AM
 
I think the guy is an idiot and just Doesn't Get It. But you know what? **** it, let him burn whatever books he wants, it's a free country. His actions say more about him than about Muslims, anyway. The rest of us with a clue just need to make sure that we make clear that we don't stand with him.

Militant Muslims may use this as fodder for more violence, but that doesn't mean that this act is causing the violence. The violence is already there, they're just looking for an excuse. Do you think if the Pastor backs down, they'll say "Oh gee, sorry, I see you understand us now. We're good!"?
     
BadKosh
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Sep 8, 2010, 07:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
It's not. But since this is a much more involved discussion than just your regular ramblings, I don't expect you to understand. Carry on.

-t
if you actually believe your previous response was enlightened or highly intelligent then perhaps your analysis is as lame as your response.
     
Wiskedjak
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Sep 8, 2010, 08:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
No. But his point is valid. Do you see Christians wanting to kill non-Christians for a bible burning? Riots because of a rumor of such an event?

Perhaps you should be visiting the immature behavior of Muslims.
Perhaps so. But, is this planned Quran burning the sort of Christian behavior you'd like set as an example for Muslims to follow?
     
BadKosh
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Sep 8, 2010, 10:24 AM
 
I dunno.. I think the Koran burnings are just as antagonistic as the Mosque at ground zero. I'm sick of walking on egg shells with Muslims anyway. They want to be treated with respect, then they need to behave like civilized people, not violent intolerant ignoramuses.
     
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Sep 8, 2010, 10:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I really don't see how this is relevant in this context.

Are you saying that expecting from that pastor NOT to burn the Quran would require him bending over backwards to not offend Muslims ?

Is burning the Quran such a normal, daily thing that it would inconvenience the pastor if he would NOT do it ?

I'd say that in this case, this guy is bending over backwards (i.e. doing whatever it takes) to achieve the exact opposite of "not offending the Muslims". He does something extraordinary, going out of his way to offend.

-t
My opinion on the matter is irrelevant, but since you insist...

I really couldn't care one way or the other (This whole issue/discussion is much-a-do about nothing IMHO). Personally, i choose not to go out of my way in this fashion to offend anyone, irrespective of the group they belong to.

In an ideal world, no one would offend any other group of people, be it burning of bibles, qurans, torahs, flags, cartoons, speeches, etc.....

What's the "real" issue here ? the burning of a book , or the endangerment of life because of something so arbitrary ? Was the danish dude who drew the cartoon a moron ? or was the problem with the people who threatened him, etc ? How about Salman Rushdie ? was he a moron for writing a fictional book ? or was it a problem with the overly sensitive and violent people who threatened him ?

What i am against is one specific group getting special treatment (despite the double standards within their society.... still waiting for the phantom moderates to appear), just because they throw a loud enough tantrum.
( Last edited by Hawkeye_a; Sep 8, 2010 at 10:41 AM. )
     
turtle777
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Sep 8, 2010, 11:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
What's the "real" issue here ? the burning of a book , or the endangerment of life because of something so arbitrary ? Was the danish dude who drew the cartoon a moron ? or was the problem with the people who threatened him, etc ? How about Salman Rushdie ? was he a moron for writing a fictional book ? or was it a problem with the overly sensitive and violent people who threatened him ?
I see a huge difference.

By our own US (and Western) standards, cartoons and literature are an accepted and long-standing tradition of free speech and criticism.

Burning things has NEVER been an accepted tradition of criticism in the US, nor Western countries. Almost universally, burning things is a very low, attention seeking form of criticism, which is more known from oppresive regimes.

-t
     
sek929
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Sep 8, 2010, 11:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
I dunno.. I think the Koran burnings are just as antagonistic as the Mosque at ground zero. I'm sick of walking on egg shells with Muslims anyway. They want to be treated with respect, then they need to behave like civilized people, not violent intolerant ignoramuses.
You think burning one group's holy book to incite a reaction is the same as a group of people moving into a new house of worship?

Violent intolerant ignoramuses are not a traits held only by Muslims. Would a Christian Church erected near the site of the OK City bombing be considered antagonistic too?

Speaking out against the cruelty and intolerance of Islamic Fundamentalism is one thing, making a spectacle out of yourself by burning the Quran to incite a reaction is another.
     
sek929
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Sep 8, 2010, 11:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I see a huge difference.

By our own US (and Western) standards, cartoons and literature are an accepted and long-standing tradition of free speech and criticism.

Burning things has NEVER been an accepted tradition of criticism in the US, nor Western countries. Almost universally, burning things is a very low, attention seeking form of criticism, which is more known from oppresive regimes.

-t
Agreed, ten-fold.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Sep 8, 2010, 12:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
I dunno.. I think the Koran burnings are just as antagonistic as the Mosque at ground zero. I'm sick of walking on egg shells with Muslims anyway. They want to be treated with respect, then they need to behave like civilized people, not violent intolerant ignoramuses.
Congrats. You have joined Kevin and hyteckit as the only people I have ever blockinated. I enjoyed our conversations about audio gear, but this is just one more example of your clearly racist and ignorant stereotyping. Enough is enough.

greg
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Jawbone54  (op)
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Sep 8, 2010, 12:41 PM
 
While I do believe there has been an alarming silence from Western Muslims in regards to 9/11, the Mohammed cartoon riots/death threats, and so on, I don't want to be guilty of the same thing as a Christian. I want to be held in higher regard, so I must act in a higher manner. When I see bad behavior on the part of fellow Christians, I'm going to distance myself from it as long as it stands in contradiction to Christian teachings.

This pastor is not holding a high standard for what Christianity should be, and is ignoring much of the New Testament in the process. Book-burnings are a low form of criticism, and the Church should be above it. He's not even being reactionary; he's just being antagonistic.

Like I said, there's plenty to criticize concerning Muslim reaction to the atrocities of the radical wings of their religion ("fanatical" sects which seem to encompass a large number of their followers), but if I stoop to their level, then all I've proven is that I'm just as guilty as they are.

This is a small church with a small pastor joining together in a small act.
     
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Sep 8, 2010, 01:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Congrats. You have joined Kevin and hyteckit as the only people I have ever blockinated. I enjoyed our conversations about audio gear, but this is just one more example of your clearly racist and ignorant stereotyping. Enough is enough.

greg
He doesn't share the views of the majority of the right. I too have noticed alot of ignorant vitriol coming from him - frankly he lessens our cause with it. Just remember there are plenty of us willing to have intelligent conversations from all sides of the fence. I know BadKosh has it in him too, but I think his anger might be blinding him to the fact that he is becoming what he hates - blind to the black and white of Left vs Right.
     
BadKosh
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Sep 8, 2010, 02:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Congrats. You have joined Kevin and hyteckit as the only people I have ever blockinated. I enjoyed our conversations about audio gear, but this is just one more example of your clearly racist and ignorant stereotyping. Enough is enough.

greg
Well, run away! Put your head in the sand. Obviously, you believe the CAIR spin on things and ignore the events of the last 15 or so years.
     
BadKosh
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Sep 8, 2010, 02:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
He doesn't share the views of the majority of the right. I too have noticed alot of ignorant vitriol coming from him - frankly he lessens our cause with it. Just remember there are plenty of us willing to have intelligent conversations from all sides of the fence. I know BadKosh has it in him too, but I think his anger might be blinding him to the fact that he is becoming what he hates - blind to the black and white of Left vs Right.
Actually, I'm sick of the left and right! The facts are more important than someones feelings. I'm sick of the lefts whining and emotion driven causes and their inability to remember the past. The current tax n spend BS has been tried every few years by them and it NEVER WORKS. I'm tired of the left media lying, mis-characterizing events and people and sloppy 'news' reporting being repeated by most of them as if they are reading white house talking points. The lefties believe they are somehow enlightened and extra intellectual because they will fall for all sorts of crap, yet can't explain the technical details that would illustrate they unserstood the point. case in point - How many people think the President has more power than Congress?

I'm tired of the rights spineless political hacks and lack of leaders.
     
finboy
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Sep 8, 2010, 02:35 PM
 
A couple of things

1) Florida church = morons. At least the leadership. I understand the "freedom of expression" but this is just poor taste. Same as the mosque in NYC. Just bad manners.

b) the General needs a little time off. He's decided that he's a politician already, and is suffering from Wesley Clark syndrome. He should get his head out and soldier.

iii) Taliban needs to focus on stuff like running water, etc. that might be a little more important. Don't they have some adulterous women to stone or something?
     
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Sep 8, 2010, 02:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
What i am against is one specific group getting special treatment (despite the double standards within their society.... still waiting for the phantom moderates to appear), just because they throw a loud enough tantrum.

Why would you expect the moderates to appear? They have no forum, no medium in this country to be heard outside of books, of which several have been written. We don't even have much of a medium for moderate Christians, let alone moderate Muslims.
     
besson3c
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Sep 8, 2010, 02:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
While I do believe there has been an alarming silence from Western Muslims in regards to 9/11, the Mohammed cartoon riots/death threats, and so on, I don't want to be guilty of the same thing as a Christian. I want to be held in higher regard, so I must act in a higher manner. When I see bad behavior on the part of fellow Christians, I'm going to distance myself from it as long as it stands in contradiction to Christian teachings.

Where would you expect to hear from these western Muslims?
     
besson3c
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Sep 8, 2010, 02:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Actually, I'm sick of the left and right! The facts are more important than someones feelings. I'm sick of the lefts whining and emotion driven causes and their inability to remember the past. The current tax n spend BS has been tried every few years by them and it NEVER WORKS. I'm tired of the left media lying, mis-characterizing events and people and sloppy 'news' reporting being repeated by most of them as if they are reading white house talking points. The lefties believe they are somehow enlightened and extra intellectual because they will fall for all sorts of crap, yet can't explain the technical details that would illustrate they unserstood the point. case in point - How many people think the President has more power than Congress?

I'm tired of the rights spineless political hacks and lack of leaders.

Where.... to... start.....
     
Jawbone54  (op)
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Sep 8, 2010, 02:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Where would you expect to hear from these western Muslims?
I would have expected organizations like ISNA, ASMA, and TAM to immediately get ahold of the press and passionately condemn the acts. Many Muslims in North America just stayed completely silent, which (to a non-Muslim observer) looks and feels more like support for those actions rather than disdain, especially with Muslims in the Middle East dancing in the streets while 3,000 American bodies were buried in rubble.
     
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Sep 8, 2010, 03:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I really don't see how this is relevant in this context.

Are you saying that expecting from that pastor NOT to burn the Quran would require him bending over backwards to not offend Muslims ?

Is burning the Quran such a normal, daily thing that it would inconvenience the pastor if he would NOT do it ?

I'd say that in this case, this guy is bending over backwards (i.e. doing whatever it takes) to achieve the exact opposite of "not offending the Muslims". He does something extraordinary, going out of his way to offend.

-t


OAW
     
besson3c
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Sep 8, 2010, 03:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I would have expected organizations like ISNA, ASMA, and TAM to immediately get ahold of the press and passionately condemn the acts. Many Muslims in North America just stayed completely silent, which (to a non-Muslim observer) looks and feels more like support for those actions rather than disdain, especially with Muslims in the Middle East dancing in the streets while 3,000 American bodies were buried in rubble.
And who would air these groups, outside of perhaps PBS, NPR, and Comedy Central who would have taken serious flack and a hit to their viewership and ratings in doing so? Each of these websites seem to have prominent anti-terrorism, bridge-the-gap, unite America sort of stuff. It is not like this is counter to their message. Are these groups big enough to be viewed as relevant enough to be a proxy to the Muslim world?

The message is out there, it is just very hard for anybody of any religion without some sort of extreme message to be heard. Are there prominent stories from moderate Christian communities denouncing the Quran burning?
     
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Sep 8, 2010, 03:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Many Muslims in North America just stayed completely silent, which (to a non-Muslim observer) looks and feels more like support for those actions rather than disdain, especially with Muslims in the Middle East dancing in the streets while 3,000 American bodies were buried in rubble.
A good buddy of mine was in Sydney, Australia during 9/11. He was at a bar when they started showing the twin towers smoking and then going down. He said that people at the bar started cheering and hollering during this time.

True story. This is Australia. I don't think the other people in the bar were Muslims, either.

greg
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Sep 8, 2010, 03:40 PM
 
… .
( Last edited by el chupacabra; Jan 5, 2024 at 12:37 AM. )
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 8, 2010, 03:41 PM
 
What did those towers represent?
     
sek929
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Sep 8, 2010, 04:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Actually, I'm sick of the left* and right**!
*Paragraph of the usual Lib Dem Lefty bashing.

**Small quip about the right.

You are as fair and balanced as Fox News.
     
Jawbone54  (op)
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Sep 8, 2010, 04:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
And who would air these groups, outside of perhaps PBS, NPR, and Comedy Central who would have taken serious flack and a hit to their viewership and ratings in doing so? Each of these websites seem to have prominent anti-terrorism, bridge-the-gap, unite America sort of stuff. It is not like this is counter to their message. Are these groups big enough to be viewed as relevant enough to be a proxy to the Muslim world?

The message is out there, it is just very hard for anybody of any religion without some sort of extreme message to be heard. Are there prominent stories from moderate Christian communities denouncing the Quran burning?
I guarantee you CNN, MSNBC, and even FOX News would invite them onto their shows if they were making the slightest bit of fuss over it.

All I've heard from my contemporaries and those in our leadership (denominationally speaking) is one rebuke after another for what this pastor is doing.
     
BadKosh
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Sep 8, 2010, 04:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
*Paragraph of the usual Lib Dem Lefty bashing.

**Small quip about the right.

You are as fair and balanced as Fox News.
And you are as fair as Chris Matthews.
     
sek929
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Sep 8, 2010, 04:59 PM
 
Since I've never actually watched his show (or any talking head for that matter) I don't know what you are talking about.
     
besson3c
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Sep 8, 2010, 05:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I guarantee you CNN, MSNBC, and even FOX News would invite them onto their shows if they were making the slightest bit of fuss over it.

All I've heard from my contemporaries and those in our leadership (denominationally speaking) is one rebuke after another for what this pastor is doing.

How can one "make a fuss" encouraging peace and urging people to be reasonable?

I'm not saying that these groups could not be doing *more*, a group can always do more of anything, but I disagree that they have just been sitting back and doing *nothing*. Considering that most people don't even know these groups exist, that "more" would have to be a hell of a lot of work, and if I were in their shoes, I'm not even sure if I would bother. There are going to be unreasonable people no matter what that want to use the actions of a few as a proxy for the beliefs of millions and millions of people. How can you speak common sense to people that believe that Obama wasn't born in this country, that 9/11 was a government hoax, etc.?
     
Snow-i
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Sep 8, 2010, 06:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Actually, I'm sick of the left and right! The facts are more important than someones feelings. I'm sick of the lefts whining and emotion driven causes and their inability to remember the past. The current tax n spend BS has been tried every few years by them and it NEVER WORKS. I'm tired of the left media lying, mis-characterizing events and people and sloppy 'news' reporting being repeated by most of them as if they are reading white house talking points. The lefties believe they are somehow enlightened and extra intellectual because they will fall for all sorts of crap, yet can't explain the technical details that would illustrate they unserstood the point. case in point - How many people think the President has more power than Congress?

I'm tired of the rights spineless political hacks and lack of leaders.
As am I BadKosh, as am I.

We cannot, however, throw the baby out with the bathwater by dismissing all dissenting viewpoints. For every hyteckit spouting whatever it is he's trying to say there are three more quiet votes that listen to the arguments as presented. We cannot chase the elusive "gotcha" moment where we can objectively, unequivocally prove the "other side" wrong. The best we can do is use patience and tolerance to gradually influence those who do not see things the way we do. In practice, it is much more persuasive to be tolerant (as intolerant as they may be) and show them that yes, on paper, socialism and progressivism is the most compassionate political doctrine but that in practice, it is the exact opposite - simply because humans are humans. As it relates to this particular topic, the pastor's position is *morally* indefensible. The only thing he has is the legal right to do what he's proposing to do.

Don't give up just yet. Its a long fight ahead but remember that the loudest political voices are often the ones serving their own interests - and this country knows better. Cooler heads will prevail...eventually and not before some adversity.
( Last edited by Snow-i; Sep 8, 2010 at 06:15 PM. Reason: Added qualifier to clarify my statement.)
     
Snow-i
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Sep 8, 2010, 06:14 PM
 
In addition...

We may, and probably never will change the views of those we are directly addressing. Don't forget, though, that the audience of these threads is much greater then the same few lefties and righties arguing the same issues. The main reason I post here is for a chance to express how I think things should ought to be in a way thats morally, ethically, and politically accessible to the silent readers of this forum. They can see the arguments I make and without posting, form their own opinions.
     
 
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