[smacintush]

Obama comes of as condescending at times. Not sure how much this matters.

McCain finally made some point he should have a while ago, like the Democrats role in this mortgage mess. Not that anyone will listen.

Obama always seems as if he's trying to recall memorized lines. I find it amusing that when Obama prepares for a debate he's lauded for his efforts making ground in areas he's weak on, when Palin prepares she is just "being told what to say" by McCain's cronies.

McCain did indeed look stiff and awkward. Should that really matter? That's a rhetorical question.

Mandatory health insurance. Fan-f*cking-tastic.

$300,000,000,000 government buy out of mortgages. Shoot me now.

McCain did appear snide at times. What if he genuinely can't stand Obama? It could be a phoniness vs. tact issue.

Glad Ayers didn't come up. Still don't care about that one.

Wish ACORN would have. Oh Well.

Ethically speaking, I trust McCain a little more, Obama a little less. Don't ask me why, just my bias perhaps.

On the issues, I trust them both less. They will both damage the country with their domestic agendas. I think either really will do an at least acceptable job internationally.

I was pleased with Mushmouth's strictness with the timekeeping rules, too bad the questions he picked sucked.

Overall:

On style, Obama wins. Slightly. He is much smoother and better looking but there is one problem. He lacks McCain's ability to convey emotion about patriotism and pride in America or it's people. He doesn't even try. To me, Obama always comes across as someone who is disappointed in the country which he happens to live in, rather than someone who want to make a difference in the country he truly loves.

On substance, a very slight advantage to McCain. He won the domestic parts but let Obama bitchslap him on foreign policy. Weird.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I dunno, they broke both his shoulders and screwed up his back, I imagine that could cause some neck trauma.

Doncha think?

Actually, they broke one of his shoulders. The other was broken in his crash (though, I imagine you could argue that by shooting him down they were responsible for that shoulder as well).

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Are you fakking kidding me?

I don't think there's any question that McCain looks incredibly stiff. Alot of us understand that it's a result of his injuries, but people who well versed in his history (read: undecideds), may simply see this as further evidence of him being too old.

[mattskee]

Are you still voting for the lesser of two evils?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aquLH7yAdWo

[mattskee]

Politician = Politician = Politician

Two sides of the same coin.
CFR
NAU
SPP
=
no more America

[mattskee]

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.” — John Quincy Adams

The Fascade of the two party system and two “choices”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVwJbtJeq5A

[mattskee]

“I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.” — Jefferson

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by James L 

Hey JB,

I've avoided commenting in these threads as it's not my election, but this question has come up in discussion with friends before and I'm curious.

No worries. Why not chip in?

Also, I can't believe I'm actually back in the Political/War Lounge at all.

For the insane right wing zealots who have posted on this forum like crazy over the last few weeks (yes, there are left wing zealots too) relax... this is a serious question and not a partisan attack.

Senator McCain turned 72 on August 29th of this year. If he wins, his term as president would be from January 20th 2009 - January 20th 2013 if I understand your political system correctly. At the end of his term he would be around 76.5 years old.

The CIA World Fact Book says the life expectancy for males is 75.29 years old in the US, which means statistically (which we all know isn't the be all and end all) there is a not insignificant chance McCain could die while in office.

He also has a history with a form of skin cancer that is fatal in 25-30% of those diagnosed (I'd have to dig into my textbooks for the actual stats).

Sarah Palin has appeared to many to be less then capable of being president should McCain pass away while in office... which there is a greater chance of happening in this election than in many others.

So my question is this:

Is this enough to sway a Republican's vote? Does this make anyone feel like they should base their vote not on McCain versus Obama, but on Palin versus Obama?

Cheers!

Pardon me while I have a politician moment (question dodging coming up), but the issue to me isn't that McCain wouldn't live through two terms in office, but how Republicans were stupid enough to nominate someone who actually doesn't agree with their philosophies very often, doesn't promote smaller government, and has a horrible personality.

It doesn't help that, statistically speaking, he could pass on at any time.

I'm not Palin-crazy, but I do believe the woman could actually be a legitimate contender for the White House within 8-12 years. I do think she was rushed in so that the GOP could say, "LOOK! We're open-minded too! A female!"

Do I feel comfortable with her leading the country at this time in her life? Probably not, but I would definitely prefer to her Obama; I can't throw my support behind anyone who would vote against bans for partial-birth and live-birth abortions (I'm a right-wing nut...what could you expect?). Capital gains tax hikes, universal healthcare, indications of instituting reparations, a mad rush to sign FOCA, a questionable energy plan, his opinions concerning gun control, and underlying questions of morality are all some other factors that contribute to my distrust of Obama.

I've never been crazy about McCain, I'm not gung-ho about Palin, Obama is a socialistic enigma, and Biden is a partisan hack.

The 2008 election sucks.

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

The 2008 election sucks.

It's becoming a cliche isn't it? As a "a right-wing nut," is assume the last time you thought an election didn't suck was '84? I imagine the last times the majority of democrats could vote without holding their nose, at least a bit, was '60.

Although, regardless of his policies (about which reasonable people can disagree), Obama has at least some of the ability to inspire in a way not seen since Regan and Kennedy. I doubt we will ever have a leader of their inspirational abilities. The country is too divided and the unfettered press is only too happy to aid in tearing people down. I would bet that neither Reagn or Kennedy would be as beloved today as they were in their time, as no matter how good they may have been, half the country would be doing their best to discredit them and destroy their reputation.

[Dakar V]

A few comments, smac. Of the ones I left out, I agreed and disagreed on some.

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Obama comes of as condescending at times. Not sure how much this matters.

That's a good question. Is it the other side of the coin to those that object to Palin & Bush's style and demeanor? (And if so, does that mean we can write it off as another symptom of partisan feelings or the right/left divide?)

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Obama always seems as if he's trying to recall memorized lines.

That's not quite the impression I got. What I did read was an incredibly formulaic answering style; Compliment the question, then tell the story of how we got to the problem in the question (which everyone already knows), giving yourself time to scrape up some kind of vague answer.

Originally Posted by smacintush 

McCain did indeed look stiff and awkward. Should that really matter? That's a rhetorical question.

Damn you, I totally had an answer for this…

Originally Posted by smacintush 

McCain did appear snide at times. What if he genuinely can't stand Obama? It could be a phoniness vs. tact issue.

My first thought is he's bound to meet people he's going to like less than Obama. My take is that open disdain is not a presidential trait (particularly for someone who is, in the grand scheme of things, on your side).
I don't care that if he doesn't like Obama, but if you willfully let your disdain permeate, seems counter-productive (and if you can't subjugate it, that's an entirely other problem altogether)

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

My first thought is he's bound to meet people he's going to like less than Obama. My take is that open disdain is not a presidential trait (particularly for someone who is, in the grand scheme of things, on your side).
I don't care that if he doesn't like Obama, but if you willfully let your disdain permeate, seems counter-productive (and if you can't subjugate it, that's an entirely other problem altogether)

Even for the look-at-how-well-diplomacy-worked-against-Hitler folks, a president needs to be diplomatic. Like you said, if he can't be diplomatic with someone on his side (though with a different perspective), how is he going to be diplomatic with another head of state that America is butting heads with?

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by Paco500 

It's becoming a cliche isn't it? As a "a right-wing nut," is assume the last time you thought an election didn't suck was '84? I imagine the last times the majority of democrats could vote without holding their nose, at least a bit, was '60.

I was born in '83, so I was less concerned with politics in '84 than I was about not soiling myself.

Also...Democrats held their noses during '92 and '96?

Although, regardless of his policies (about which reasonable people can disagree), Obama has at least some of the ability to inspire in a way not seen since Regan and Kennedy. I doubt we will ever have a leader of their inspirational abilities. The country is too divided and the unfettered press is only too happy to aid in tearing people down. I would bet that neither Reagn or Kennedy would be as beloved today as they were in their time, as no matter how good they may have been, half the country would be doing their best to discredit them and destroy their reputation.

Obama seems just as capable of inspiring contempt within people as he does optimism; it just depends on which side of the fence you fall on. Reagan and Kennedy might not have been perfect, but neither of them had something as detestable (for roughly half of the country) as support for partial-birth and live-birth abortion on their records.

Also, the "unfettered press" seems more than willing to prop Obama up as the great hope for America (excluding FOX and talk radio). Their relentless enthusiasm in itself gives me enough cause for concern.

[Super Mario]

Neither won because they are both part of the problem.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

Also, the "unfettered press" seems more than willing to prop Obama up as the great hope for America (excluding FOX and talk radio). Their relentless enthusiasm in itself gives me enough cause for concern.

Yeah when the media loves a politician for some fantasy cool factor then the media's impartiality and reliability has to be called into question. It's once step away from fascism for broadcast journalists to give a politician soooo much love when we all know politicians are scum and are only good when we keep them in line.

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

Obama seems just as capable of inspiring contempt within people as he does optimism; it just depends on which side of the fence you fall on. Reagan and Kennedy might not have been perfect, but neither of them had something as detestable (for roughly half of the country) as support for partial-birth and live-birth abortion on their records.

I know 5 people who were voting for Obama until they read about those issues and how he voted... McCain is politically retarded if he doesnt bring it up... and he probably wont.

As someone who isnt a radical right wing nut job, I still think the whole idea of supporting live-birth abortion is kinda gross.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

I know 5 people who were voting for Obama until they read about those issues and how he voted... McCain is politically retarded if he doesnt bring it up... and he probably wont.

Those 5 people were horribly misinformed. Obama didn't vote for the bill the three times it came up in the Illinois State Senate because the bill was designed to undermine Roe v. Wade. Illinois is one of three states in the Union (along with Arkansas and Louisiana) that have contingency laws that, if Roe v. Wade were ever overturned, would make abortion illegal in those states.

Obama did support the same Federal bill that came up because it included provisions to protect the decision handed down in Roe v. Wade.

[Indecision08]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

...support for partial-birth and live-birth abortion on their records.

Voting against a Bill doesn't automatically mean supporting the opposite.

Supports women's judgment on late term abortions but also supports state legislation that restricts partial birth abortion.

On the Issues:

"In 1997, Obama voted against SB 230, which would have turned doctors into felons by banning so-called partial-birth abortion, & against a 2000 bill banning state funding. Although these bills included an exception to save the life of the mother, they didn't include anything about abortions necessary to protect the health of the mother. The legislation defined a fetus as a person, & could have criminalized virtually all abortion."

Unequivocally doesn't support live birth abortions. Supports already existing law from Illinois that made the "live birth" bill unnecessary. IMO He has an undeserved reputation because -once again- the bill he voted against was so broad in its language that it would have restricted other forms of abortion as well. He supports medical care for babies regardless of how they are born and supports abortion procedures that can aide in the delivery of viable fetuses. Here are excerpts from the existing Illinois law that Obama supports:

720 ILCS 510/6) (from Ch. 38, par. 81‑26)
    Sec. 6. (1) (a) Any physician who intentionally performs an abortion when, in his medical judgment based on the particular facts of the case before him, there is a reasonable likelihood of sustained survival of the fetus outside the womb, with or without artificial support, shall utilize that method of abortion which, of those he knows to be available, is in his medical judgment most likely to preserve the life and health of the fetus.
[...]
(b) Subsequent to the abortion, if a child is born alive, the physician required by Section 6(2)(a) to be in attendance shall exercise the same degree of professional skill, care and diligence to preserve the life and health of the child as would be required of a physician providing immediate medical care to a child born alive in the course of a pregnancy termination which was not an abortion. Any such physician who intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly violates Section 6(2)(b) commits a Class 3 felony.
Link

If there is anything in his record that contradict what I just posted I would appreciate a detailed account with a link.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

I know 5 people who were voting for Obama until they read about those issues and how he voted... McCain is politically retarded if he doesnt bring it up... and he probably wont.

He won't. He is politically retarded.

As someone who isnt a radical right wing nut job, I still think the whole idea of supporting live-birth abortion is kinda gross.

Most Americans do, which makes it even crazier that McCain won't bring it up.

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Those 5 people were horribly misinformed. Obama didn't vote for the bill the three times it came up in the Illinois State Senate because the bill was designed to undermine Roe v. Wade. Illinois is one of three states in the Union (along with Arkansas and Louisiana) that have contingency laws that, if Roe v. Wade were ever overturned, would make abortion illegal in those states.

Obama did support the same Federal bill that came up because it included provisions to protect the decision handed down in Roe v. Wade.

The bill was re-written.

The Born-Alive Infants Protection Act (BAIPA) both in the Illinois and Federal legislatures was meant to make illegal death by neglect of born but unwanted infants. These bills were opposed by the bulk of the Democrat Party because of the fact that the original bills could have been construed to say that a pre-birth fetus was a “person” that was protected by law. So, the bill in Congress was altered to address that concern by adding a “neutrality clause” that made it clear that the bill would not protect a fetus in utero.

As Obama continues to tell the tale, as a State Senator he said he voted against the Illinois bill because the Federal “neutrality clause” was not included and that therefore he could not support the Illinois bill. Turns out he is not telling the truth about this fact. Even worse, he knows better because he was part of the legislative committee that added that very “neutrality clause” to the very bill he voted against in 2003.

More details (tons, actually) here.

[Arkham_c]

Originally Posted by James L 

Sarah Palin has appeared to many to be less then capable of being president should McCain pass away while in office... which there is a greater chance of happening in this election than in many others.
...
Is this enough to sway a Republican's vote? Does this make anyone feel like they should base their vote not on McCain versus Obama, but on Palin versus Obama?

I personally like McCain. I admittedly liked him more 8 years ago than the old, seemingly lost man we saw in the debate, but I think he's a good guy at heart. But I cannot abide Palin as VP with such a significant chance of being president. She took 6 years and 6 colleges to get an undergrad degree in journalism. She's just not smart enough to do the job. I could not in good conscience vote for a ticket with her on it.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

He won't. He is politically retarded.

This I don't get. That's why you have campaign managers and political advisors, right? Is he over-ruling them? Ignoring them? And after all the time he's spent in politics, I expected a much saavier candidate. Someone who might out-smooth the not-as-smooth-as-portrayed Barack.

Originally Posted by Arkham_c 

I personally like McCain. I admittedly liked him more 8 years ago than the old, seemingly lost man we saw in the debate, but I think he's a good guy at heart.

I keep wondering if he was like this 8 years ago. For some reason, I think, "No".

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Arkham_c 

I personally like McCain. I admittedly liked him more 8 years ago than the old, seemingly lost man we saw in the debate, but I think he's a good guy at heart. But I cannot abide Palin as VP with such a significant chance of being president. She took 6 years and 6 colleges to get an undergrad degree in journalism. She's just not smart enough to do the job. I could not in good conscience vote for a ticket with her on it.

When I saw that McCain had been selected for the Republican nomination, I practically cheered as he looked like a better candidate than Obama or Clinton and would bring a moderating voice to the extremists currently running the Republican party. It's really too bad that the Maverick caved in to the extremists and chose Palin as his candidate.

[Indecision08]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

More .... here.

That site is distorting the record and Obama's position. The audio and transcript of his arguments during the debate on that bill, for example, don't support the conclusions this woman draws about "infanticide". He says there is no need for a second doctor and she suggests it means he wants to kill babies.

He doesn't support the specific bill this woman wanted but that isn't the same thing as saying that he supports "live birth abortion". The existing law Obama supports, referenced in my previous post, indicates that he agrees with medical care for babies regardless of how they are born and supports abortion procedures that can aide in the delivery of viable fetuses.

[tie]

Originally Posted by Arkham_c 

She took 6 years and 6 colleges to get an undergrad degree in journalism.

Republicans sure have a knack for choosing candidates to inspire underachievers.

[TheWOAT]

[QUOTE=olePigeon;3738413]Those 5 people were horribly misinformed./QUOTE]

This is the basic story as I understand it...
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...,1470841.story

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by tie 

Republicans sure have a knack for choosing candidates to inspire underachievers.

Regardless of what you think of her, there's little to her story that would lead one to believe she's an "underachiever". I'd venture to guess she's achieved more than most here by almost any standard.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

The bill was re-written.

It was also passed in 2005 with Obama's support.

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

More details (tons, actually) here.

I don't subscribe to religious, right-wing blogs.

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

This is the basic story as I understand it...
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...,1470841.story

That seems pretty accurate. Obama (and not just Obama) voted against several versions of the bill until the 2005 version (which did pass with his support) specifically included protection for Roe v. Wade.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

When I saw that McCain had been selected for the Republican nomination, I practically cheered as he looked like a better candidate than Obama or Clinton and would bring a moderating voice to the extremists currently running the Republican party. It's really too bad that the Maverick caved in to the extremists and chose Palin as his candidate.

Ditto.

[TheWOAT]

Palin heightens rhetoric on abortion
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/...rap/index.html

Hail Mary pass...

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

When I saw that McCain had been selected for the Republican nomination, I practically cheered as he looked like a better candidate than Obama or Clinton and would bring a moderating voice to the extremists currently running the Republican party. It's really too bad that the Maverick caved in to the extremists and chose Palin as his candidate.

have to agree with that.

What would you guys have thought about Elizabeth Dole?

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

Palin heightens rhetoric on abortion
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/...rap/index.html

Hail Mary pass...

Such an apt picture of Palin. She looks like she's saying, "throw me a bone, here."

[Arkham_c]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

have to agree with that.

What would you guys have thought about Elizabeth Dole?

I don't know a whole lot about her, but I had a favorable impression of her when her husband was running (and I voted for him).