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Superchicken · Jul 25, 2005, 06:24 PM

Fact is I'm an artist down to my core. With words I'm more of a poet or actor than I am simply someone delivering information. If I decide to use a keynote slide show to accompany what I am preaching on I want to be able to have my layout progressively go darker along with the lights in the area that I preach in, as I talk about humanity's fallen nature.

You can use multimedia to build on effect and meaning in many situations. Simply because PowerPoint slideshows have traditionally been used in replacement of hand outs, doesn't mean that they always have to be. In church we often have photos of what the pastors might be talking about. At school we'd have pictures behind the text of songs on the screen that help draw the heart into a state of worship. The fact is that presentation software can be useful for more than JUST what you've used it for. Simply because you don't need or want anything more than what you have, doesn't mean Apple shouldn't stop innovating and giving the rest of us more options.

budster101 · Jul 25, 2005, 06:29 PM

I like iWork.

Pages is a great program for most users at home. Great layout for invitations and envelopers eclipse anything that MS can offer in word. It's EASY and fun to use. You see what you are going to get. People love that.

Keynote is just as easy to use, and quite powerful for adding media content. You don't have to use the tansitions and if you are going to export to PP DON'T... most will not transfer.

It is about the content, and getting what you want done elegantly and easily without hassle. You don't have to fight the interface.

I wish they would market it better!!!! and the same goes for .mac

Superchicken · Jul 25, 2005, 06:31 PM

I'm glad they don't market .mac that well. It means I don't have to tell as many people that they don't need to buy it. I won't recommend .mac until they offer features that actually make sense at 100 bucks a year. Without a top level domain they really should be allowing for things like php and mySQL databases and what not, or at least offering a decent set of web design apps.

besson3c · Jul 25, 2005, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Superchicken

I'm glad they don't market .mac that well. It means I don't have to tell as many people that they don't need to buy it. I won't recommend .mac until they offer features that actually make sense at 100 bucks a year. Without a top level domain they really should be allowing for things like php and mySQL databases and what not, or at least offering a decent set of web design apps.

Don't hold your breath on .Mac acquiring PHP and MySQL, it simply isn't marketed or designed for people who need this. Would you recommend .Mac for users who don't need PHP or MySQL?

I think many advanced users like yourself have great difficulty putting themselves in the shoes of novice users.

Chuckit · Jul 25, 2005, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Would you recommend .Mac for users who don't need PHP or MySQL?

No. If it isn't intended to offer as much power, it shouldn't cost just as much money.

besson3c · Jul 25, 2005, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Fact is I'm an artist down to my core. With words I'm more of a poet or actor than I am simply someone delivering information. If I decide to use a keynote slide show to accompany what I am preaching on I want to be able to have my layout progressively go darker along with the lights in the area that I preach in, as I talk about humanity's fallen nature.

You can use multimedia to build on effect and meaning in many situations. Simply because PowerPoint slideshows have traditionally been used in replacement of hand outs, doesn't mean that they always have to be. In church we often have photos of what the pastors might be talking about. At school we'd have pictures behind the text of songs on the screen that help draw the heart into a state of worship. The fact is that presentation software can be useful for more than JUST what you've used it for. Simply because you don't need or want anything more than what you have, doesn't mean Apple shouldn't stop innovating and giving the rest of us more options.

Yes, but the core of what Keynote is and is designed to be (as far as I can tell) is a Powerpoint clone. These multimedia features might be nice for some people, as you said, but I just can't agree with you that they are a priority, or central to the app.

budster101 · Jul 25, 2005, 07:42 PM

Ever try to put a Flash movie or Quicktime into a PowerPoint presentation?
Ack....

Then you have to deal with audio... it SUCKS.

--

Keynote is easy and it flucking works.

besson3c · Jul 25, 2005, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

No. If it isn't intended to offer as much power, it shouldn't cost just as much money.

I think this sentiment, no offense, is another example of advanced users like yourself having difficulty putting yourselves in the shoes of novice users.

Novice users do not see some sort of relationship of more power = higher cost. They don't understand what that power is, how it should affect the value of the product, and why they should care.

.Mac is targeted towards users who want to be able to, for example, publish their iPhoto galleries in just a few clicks - no muss, no fuss. All a novice user sees is that .Mac will allow them to do that. If it is worth $100 to them, they buy.

Where I'm conflicted is that with help from an advanced user, these same people can use a product like PHP Gallery and publish photos themselves (through iPhoto), and spend much less. However, novice users don't have the resources themselves to seek out these alternatives.

Then again, there are a ton of silly products that are marketed towards novice users - spyware removal apps, screen savers, and various other shareware.

budster101 · Jul 25, 2005, 07:54 PM

It's a great offering for those switching from windows. They see something they can use that works well with their new machine and OS and it adds value to the premium they just spent.

$69.00 per year Plus the $1k and up they just put out is nothing, and if they are shown how to use it, they will see the benefits. Most of them don't know PHP or SQL, nor will they ever use it.

How many of them also have PREMIUM PREMIERE CABLE? I'm sure many of them. Do they watch all the movie channels all the time? Probably not, but they have them...

Will they use all the features of .mac?
Proabably not, but it does pull a lot of things into one space that can be also viewed remotely from any place they may be with an internet connection by logging into .mac, so what's wrong with that?

I have my own server in addition to .mac, and I still like .mac.

besson3c · Jul 25, 2005, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by budster101

It's a great offering for those switching from windows. They see something they can use that works well with their new machine and OS and it adds value to the premium they just spent.

$69.00 per year Plus the $1k and up they just put out is nothing, and if they are shown how to use it, they will see the benefits. Most of them don't know PHP or SQL, nor will they ever use it.

How many of them also have PREMIUM PREMIERE CABLE? I'm sure many of them. Do they watch all the movie channels all the time? Probably not, but they have them...

Will they use all the features of .mac?
Proabably not, but it does pull a lot of things into one space that can be also viewed remotely from any place they may be with an internet connection by logging into .mac, so what's wrong with that?

I have my own server in addition to .mac, and I still like .mac.

good points!

Superchicken · Jul 25, 2005, 10:32 PM

I still think .mac is over priced. 20-30 bucks and a gig of storage would be far more reasonable. That would make .mac far more useful. Add to that features that make it useful for power users as well as the novice and then I'll start recommending it. Until then, I refuse to promote this bad behaviour on Apple's part... that is... unless they hire me in which case I'll promote whatever the heck they want!

budster101 · Jul 25, 2005, 10:37 PM

$69 per year? Overpriced...

$5.75 / month and then about 20 cents per day... just don't get two cups of Starbucks in a month and you have paid for it. It's about value and where you place yours.

Starbucks Coffee: $3.00 average for a grande right? per day? $99 / month.... $1,000 per year.

---

They aren't going to hire you with that attitude. You should not sell something because you are paid to do so, but if you believe in a product. It's called honesty & integrety for a reason.

If you cannot find something good to say, then by all means you should keep it shut, or find out the good points in a product and then sell them with a good conscience. I couldn't work for many companies because of my feelings about honesty and integrety. BALLY'S and BEST BUY come to mind. I despise them both.

Randman · Jul 25, 2005, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by Superchicken

I still think .mac is over priced. 20-30 bucks and a gig of storage would be far more reasonable. That would make .mac far more useful. Add to that features that make it useful for power users as well as the novice and then I'll start recommending it. Until then, I refuse to promote this bad behaviour on Apple's part... that is... unless they hire me in which case I'll promote whatever the heck they want!

For $8 or so a month (30 cents a day), .Mac serves me quite well.

Superchicken · Jul 25, 2005, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Randman

For $8 or so a month (30 cents a day), .Mac serves me quite well.

You guys have more disposable income than I do

But for that you could sponsor a child in Africa.

budster101 · Jul 25, 2005, 10:44 PM

No, I just don't buy Starbucks like I used to...

I buy Dunkn' Donuts... oh I am so into their cofee... I'd love to own a franchise.

Disposable income?
Right. I can't afford to get new breaks for my car or the window fixed... or the insurance... It's a bitch being behind after being out of work. I rely on my .mac a bit for a lot of my contacts so I have to keep it as well.

Randman · Jul 25, 2005, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by Superchicken

You guys have more disposable income than I do

But for that you could sponsor a child in Africa.

Not every one is a starving student. And I give plenty to needy charities, thank you very much.

Superchicken · Jul 25, 2005, 10:47 PM

I should also mention simply because not everyone is using the features I'm requesting isn't a reason not to build them in. I don't imagine they'd take much to add to the app, and who knows maybe more people would start. As well, I should mention, Churches would be a decent sized market for Apple to try and tap.

budster101 · Jul 25, 2005, 10:49 PM

What child in Africa? The one that is going to die of Salmanila or Aids?
Africa should fix Africa first...

We have enough problems in teh USA that aren't fixed and nobody is doing a thing!
Legislators in CA get $110k plus for what?
Let them give to the kid in Africa, I'm diggin myself out as it is.... and I have to feel guilty about spending $69 a year on something I use for my work?...

budster101 · Jul 25, 2005, 10:50 PM

Edit.

Superchicken · Jul 25, 2005, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by budster101

What child in Africa? The one that is going to die of Salmanila or Aids?
Africa should fix Africa first...

We have enough problems in teh USA that aren't fixed and nobody is doing a thing!
Legislators in CA get $110k plus for what?
Let them give to the kid in Africa, I'm diggin myself out as it is.... and I have to feel guilty about spending $69 a year on something I use for my work?...

Why should Africa dig themselves out when Western oppression helped put them where they were in the first place. And if you don't want your kid to get AIDS give to a Christian charity like Compassion, where they help educate the kids with both knowledge and values, so hopefully the kid won't be having sex and get AIDS.

Randman · Jul 25, 2005, 10:56 PM

Before this topic derails too much, I would hope Apple has something in mind next year. Either to fold iWork into iLife '06 or make the applications standard with new Macs. The apps are too good not to have but the dismal sales means something has to be changed.

budster101 · Jul 25, 2005, 10:56 PM

YOU KNOW WHAT?

Start another thread on "Why America should dig out Africa" or some other title ok?

-=-

This is a thread about iWork, not why we should spend money on saving African children instead of buying dot mac or iWork. Sell why the Corrupt Africa can't save itself elsewhere because they have the resources to do so but are too corrupt to do anything about it.

Superchicken · Jul 25, 2005, 11:40 PM

The kids aren't corrupt :-P

But anyway, I too think iWork should be bundled on all Macs, especially the mini. It just makes sense. If they're going to be upgrading it every year they're gona be putting in the dev dollars why not increase the user base. That said I think they might want to give the apps a bit more time to mature before they start bundling em.

budster101 · Jul 25, 2005, 11:47 PM

DUDE: The government is, and if you fix that, then they can use their RESOURCES to help their own. Just like US.

---

I agree with the bundle of iWork, and maybe a year subscription to .mac included, and Apple Pro Care and AppleCare....

When does it end? You get iLife included in new Macs...

besson3c · Jul 25, 2005, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Why should Africa dig themselves out when Western oppression helped put them where they were in the first place. And if you don't want your kid to get AIDS give to a Christian charity like Compassion, where they help educate the kids with both knowledge and values, so hopefully the kid won't be having sex and get AIDS.

Or, give the kid proper sex education rather than just shoving abstinence down his/her throat, and providing the kid with more reason to rebel/self-educate.

If you want to get into this argument about Africa, at least provide us with some facts and depth to your argument, rather than just poking, proding, and pressing people's buttons.

Also, you may not have intended this, but I take offense to your implication that only Christian charities can provide this knowledge and value. Is this what you intended?

(I guess I'm guilty of derailing my own thread here...

)

budster101 · Jul 26, 2005, 12:02 AM

This thread is now about iWork.... errr wait....

Superchicken · Jul 26, 2005, 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Or, give the kid proper sex education rather than just shoving abstinence down his/her throat, and providing the kid with more reason to rebel/self-educate.

If you want to get into this argument about Africa, at least provide us with some facts and depth to your argument, rather than just poking, proding, and pressing people's buttons.

Also, you may not have intended this, but I take offense to your implication that only Christian charities can provide this knowledge and value. Is this what you intended?

(I guess I'm guilty of derailing my own thread here...

)

What Christianity can't do proper sex ed? News flash my youth group kids are not some sort of unknowledgable mindless sheep. They choose not to have sex... well partially because they can't get any, and largely cause they love God and believe it's the right thing to do. And you know what they're a lot less likely to tell me they've got an STD than the kids I went to high school with, all of whom have had proper sex ed, and many who are pregnant or have gotten someone pregnant. So stop bashing what you A) don't understand, and B) seem to have an irrational hatred against.

On the other topic. I think iWork is good for bundling because it's a very Apple program, not to mention it's an Apple app suite that actually doesn't ignore the HIG.

budster101 · 03:05 AM

Sure, just ignore me...

besson3c · Jul 26, 2005, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by Superchicken

What Christianity can't do proper sex ed? News flash my youth group kids are not some sort of unknowledgable mindless sheep. They choose not to have sex... well partially because they can't get any, and largely cause they love God and believe it's the right thing to do. And you know what they're a lot less likely to tell me they've got an STD than the kids I went to high school with, all of whom have had proper sex ed, and many who are pregnant or have gotten someone pregnant. So stop bashing what you A) don't understand, and B) seem to have an irrational hatred against.

On the other topic. I think iWork is good for bundling because it's a very Apple program, not to mention it's an Apple app suite that actually doesn't ignore the HIG.

Sorry for making an inaccurate generalization. You're right, and I'm sorry. It's just that unconditional abstinence and lack of sex education is a hot button issue for me. I grew up with abstinence and sex FUD, and I just believe strongly that this approach is ineffective (we do have the same desired results, I'm not advocating that teens get pregnant or catch an STD). For some reason, I associate this approach with the so-called Christian Right, it is unfair of me to maintain this bias and stereotype.

I try not to hate anything or anybody, but another hot button for me is the notion that Christianity and Christianity alone is morally superior. This just seems dangerously close to religious fanaticism, which I think is one of the greatest evils of the world.

Sorry, no more posts from me about anything but iWork in this thread... I promise!

Superchicken · Jul 26, 2005, 12:25 AM

I'll tell you something, I wouldn't be a Christian if I didn't think it was morally better than everything else... otherwise I'd be whatever I thought it wasn't better than that. I'm also a Mac user cause I think OS X is better than Windows and Linux. There's nothing wrong with thinking you have the best, or the best you can get. The problem comes when you devalue people who don't have what you have. And you needn't associate what I say with the religious right. Most of the American religious right would hate me... I hug gay people

. I base my Christian behaviour and belief out of the Bible, and do my best to refuse any ideology that is not clearly from there. When I advocate for teaching kids a biblical perspective, it's because I can't stand the way the secular humanists teach it. In high school I never heard, "Sex is something highly emotional, and special, and you shouldn't waste it with someone who won't actually love you and will just hurt you." Girls today are taught just to make sure they don't get pregnant, that said when they screw up they're shamed for having made a mistake and screwed up. They're not told they're now a mother in the maker and they need to fill that role, they're told that if they kill it there won't be consequences, and they're not told just how awful they ALL feel afterward after they realize that they've killed someone (OK yes there are some sick bitches that don't feel bad after an abortion but few humans are that numb). And boys are taught no better. Dad says go out and bang whoever you want, just don't get caught, don't get sick, don't get her pregnant. They're not taught to be disciplined, they're not taught to love, they're not taught! They're not taught how to be the least amount of trouble for the negligent unloving bastards they call mom and dad.
Sorry... I'm a bit passionate on the subject... I hate what my kids have to go through.

besson3c · Jul 26, 2005, 02:30 AM

Do you think that Apple will ever make Pages cross-platform? How about sharing code with OpenOffice to help take a dent out of the MS Office dominance? Do you think Apple cares about positioning iWork as an Office killer?

JustAnOl'Broad · Jul 26, 2005, 02:53 AM

I like iWork. Haven't used them alot yet, but have alot
of projects in mind. I think it's a bit of an upgrade from
Appleworks ( as far as the interface). I find it alot easier
to figure out.
I think alot of my Mac friends use Office because they got
used to it at work, and have stayed with it. Don't think I've ever
used any of the apps in their Suite.
I hope to put together a Keynote presentation for a Retreat
this coming September. Am just hoping that attaching my
Powerbook to the huge monitor in the bar will go smoothly.

Chuckit · Jul 26, 2005, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Do you think that Apple will ever make Pages cross-platform?

Probably not.

Originally Posted by besson3c

How about sharing code with OpenOffice to help take a dent out of the MS Office dominance?

How would sharing your code with a project that can't incorporate it help make a dent in Microsoft's marketshare? It seems to me that would only hurt your own.

budster101 · Jul 26, 2005, 03:09 AM

No way. (Cross platform)

No way. OpenOffice.

---

The market for iWork is not to replace Office, because there are things in Office that power users need still, just like .mac will not compete with someone owning their own server and working with PHP and SQL.

The product enhances the user experience and is geared towards a segment of the population that will buy their first Mac or first computer ever, as well as satisfy the needs of new and returing students at the collegate level and beyond. Even High School kids will benefit from using iWork in their daily homework projects. You can open and save word documents, though I don't see why, when you can output to pdf.

Millennium · Jul 26, 2005, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Fact is I'm an artist down to my core. With words I'm more of a poet or actor than I am simply someone delivering information.

Then focus on your artwork, and leave presenting information to people who know how to do it. The purpose of a presentation is to deliver information; artistry must be a secondary concern. The whole problem with programs like PowerPoint and Keynote is that they do not force the user to think about the information being presented, as previous methods have.

If I decide to use a keynote slide show to accompany what I am preaching on I want to be able to have my layout progressively go darker along with the lights in the area that I preach in, as I talk about humanity's fallen nature.

Fine enough. That's a good use of Keynote. Contrary to what you might think, I'm not opposed to presentational software. You appear to have a decent idea of what you're doing; good for you. But you are in a tiny minority.