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culture/moral values war
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besson3c
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Jul 26, 2005, 12:02 AM
 
I'm sick of people like Zell Miller, the guy that wrote the book about the 100 people ruining America, and Rick Santorum preaching about how our culture's morality has gone down the tubes. It seems like all around the world, a significant population of people long for yesteryear and constantly perpetuate and espouse mythology of older cultures being morally superior.

Perhaps people of this generation are more vulgar and further removed from their puritanical roots, but we are also better informed and know more now then we did in years past.

But the biggest reason I feel that the decline of our moral fabric is a myth is that in many ways we are better off now than in years past. Here's a list of highly immoral aspects to culture which were common in years past:

- segregation, racism in general
- mistreatment of women
- mistreatment of Blacks
- mistreatment of Jews
- slavery
- witch hunting

the list goes on and on....


Without becoming too vicious and mean-spirted (dare I say "immoral"? , does anybody care to defend the idea that the morals of our culture as a whole have eroded? I'd really like to better understand this argument.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 26, 2005, 12:05 AM
 
Somehow this thread got posted three times. I was having some MacNN database issues, so I might be to blame for this. Sorry mods!

Can we use this thread and delete the other two?

So sorry!
     
budster101
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Jul 26, 2005, 12:07 AM
 
First we have to figure out which of the three threads you started are going to be kept....

Now women are in power and mistreating men on a more equal level....
Now blacks are in power and mistreating whites....
Now jews aer in power and mistreating everyone they don't like....
Now whites are the new slaves....
Witch hunting? You mean like how Christians on these boards are attacked constantly?

The list does go on and on...
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 26, 2005, 12:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
First we have to figure out which of the three threads you started are going to be kept....

Now women are in power and mistreating men on a more equal level....
Now blacks are in power and mistreating whites....
Now jews aer in power and mistreating everyone they don't like....
Now whites are the new slaves....
Witch hunting? You mean like how Christians on these boards are attacked constantly?

The list does go on and on...
You're kidding, right?

There are still more men in power than women. How many female politicians can you name? How many black politicians or of any other position of power can you name? How many white males can you think of in the same positions?

I apologized to Chicken for allowing what he said to press that hot button of mine, he didn't deserve my outburst. As much as attacking Christians is wrong, the Christian Right is very powerful right now, and one could argue that it is attacking what isn't Christian to them (e.g. gays, etc.). My point is that the religious vs. secular war (if there is one) is not completely one-sided.
     
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Jul 26, 2005, 12:46 AM
 
I want Jesse Jackson Sr and Jr on a spit.
But yeah those witchhunts back in the 70s were crazy evil. And can someone go over to the Jewish country club and tell them that I make enough money and have boned enough Jewish girls that they should just let me join already? They have the best brunches out of all the clubs in the Norh Shore.

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budster101
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Jul 26, 2005, 12:51 AM
 
Where did I say there were more women in power than men? I said there are more women in power and now abusing it...

Same goes for all others.

Why stuck on politicians? We have many women and minority politicians, I watch CSPAN on occasion, and listen to them all speak, and I wonder if they would pass a remedial writing and speaking class... ALL OF THEM, not just the minority representatives.

Of course it isn't all one-sided, it just depends on your point of view.

I like the book and find it amusing.
     
Superchicken
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Jul 26, 2005, 01:02 AM
 
Actually in the church at least up here we're seeing a lot of bitter women striving for power since up here Christianity has gotten liberal enough that people don't just take the major passage(s) disallowing women from pastoral ministry at face value any more (though upon reading the greek I have to say that they really shouldn't be taken at face value in english since they don't exactly leave in the nuance Paul used.)
We had a female Prof at school in charge of chapel and to be honest... I think she's a bit sexist... we had a disproportionate amount of female guest speakers (when there are probably at least a 3 to 1 ratio of men vs. women in vocational ministry) as well... she really tended to favour female students.
As well in high school, being a Christian was incredibly tough, and hearing my YG kids up here still haven't changed. If you're a Christian and some teachers know it you're a second class student even if your work is better. As well in social circles, largely I think because of the values the media perpetuates Christians who actually live out their faith (we're talking live their OWN LIVES by their own values) are looked down upon very strongly by their peers.
Actually the pro gay propaganda that's put out up here I find incredibly offensive because it's more often than not extremely anti-Christian. And it pisses me off that one group that has been treated badly is so willing to do the same to another group.
     
Warung
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Jul 26, 2005, 01:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
Now women are in power and mistreating men on a more equal level....
Now blacks are in power and mistreating whites....
Now jews aer in power and mistreating everyone they don't like....
Now whites are the new slaves....
Witch hunting? You mean like how Christians on these boards are attacked constantly?
That's the biggest bunch of crap I've read in ages.

What is that you right wing radicals always bitch about whenever one brings up the topic of social justice and liberal politics?...Something about "victimization"? Pot...Kettle...

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Superchicken
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Jul 26, 2005, 01:21 AM
 
People make others who don't feel the same way their victims. News flash few people ever don't pick on someone. And they always justify it by saying that someone else was picking on someone else before... and then they'll be pissed off when they get picked on for being jerks themselves. For the record I have picked on very few people in my life... I was too fat
     
budster101
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Jul 26, 2005, 01:29 AM
 
I'm a libertarian, so please refrain from painting me as something I'm not.
     
Warung
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Jul 26, 2005, 01:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
I'm a libertarian, so please refrain from painting me as something I'm not.
How much further right wing than "American libertarian" can you get these days? Oh wait...there are the islamic jihadsits and Jewish nationalists.

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Warung
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Jul 26, 2005, 01:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Superchicken
And they always justify it by saying that someone else was picking on someone else before...
Kind of like the Nürnberg trials?

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budster101
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Jul 26, 2005, 01:41 AM
 
Removed by budster.
( Last edited by budster101; Jul 26, 2005 at 02:40 AM. )
     
Warung
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Jul 26, 2005, 01:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
I'm for individual freedoms...
Individual freedoms like being able to feel comfortable with your sexuality without being pestered by religious biggots?

Individual freedoms like choice of lifestyle?

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budster101
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Jul 26, 2005, 01:53 AM
 
Yes, individual freedoms like not being pestered by anti-religous-bitchy-gay-zealots as well.

Yes, individual freedoms like choice of lifestyles, but I thought that gayness was not a choice?
Pick one please... if you are born gay, then you have a problem, if it is a choice, then you have a problem that is only a choice and not something you are born with... but just the same you are not going to enter the gene pool so why would I care?

I'm more of a Buddhist, so maybe in the next life you will be straight, and I will be gay...

Whatever the case may be, just don't be so bitchy.
     
Warung
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Jul 26, 2005, 02:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
Yes, individual freedoms like choice of lifestyles, but I thought that gayness was not a choice?
And I was talking about a "lifestyle" and not sexual preference.

Originally Posted by budster101
Pick one please... if you are born gay, then you have a problem, if it is a choice, then you have a problem that is only a choice and not something you are born with...
No, actually the only problem is that some people can't accept that real lifeâ„¢ transcends their narrow moralistic and religious view of life.

Originally Posted by budster101
but just the same you are not going to enter the gene pool so why would I care?
Yeah, why would you care...

Originally Posted by budster101
I'm more of a Buddhist, so maybe in the next life you will be straight, and I will be gay...
One can only whish that in your next life you'll be "gayer" than you are now...

Originally Posted by budster101
Whatever the case may be, just don't be so bitchy.
Bwahahahahaaaa...look who's talking. Especially since the biggest bitch on this forum at the moment is another well known right wing radical.

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Jul 26, 2005, 02:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by Warung

Bwahahahahaaaa...look who's talking. Especially since the biggest bitch on this forum at the moment is another well known right wing radical.

Anthens or Logic?
Cause iWrite isn't a bitch. Hence the coined term, YDC.

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budster101
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Jul 26, 2005, 02:15 AM
 
I think you've just taken it up the donkey one too many times... It's people like you (warung) that make me wonder about most gays having psych problems.
     
Warung
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Jul 26, 2005, 02:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Captain Obvious
Anthens or Logic?
I wrote "right wing radical", not refreshingly "different"!

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Warung
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Jul 26, 2005, 02:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
It's people like you (warung) that make me wonder about most gays having psych problems.
Because I have a profound influence on homosexuals' psyche? LOL

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budster101
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Jul 26, 2005, 02:22 AM
 
Removed by budster.
( Last edited by budster101; Jul 26, 2005 at 02:39 AM. )
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 26, 2005, 02:25 AM
 
Hey Warung and Budster,

It sounds like you guys have some weird history together that I'm not aware of. If you think that fleshing out each other's feelings on being gay will ultimately be productive, do you think that perhaps you could do it in another thread?
     
Warung
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Jul 26, 2005, 02:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
You are gay right?
No...

Originally Posted by budster101
So, you are just straight then, and have psych problems.
Interesting. Why? Because I am concerned with individual freedoms and civil liberties?

Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
     
Warung
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Jul 26, 2005, 02:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c
It sounds like you guys have some weird history together that I'm not aware of.
Naw...he just whishes.

Originally Posted by besson3c
If you think that fleshing out each other's feelings on being gay will ultimately be productive, do you think that perhaps you could do it in another thread?
Actually, if you read between the lines, our little debate here has a lot to do with the topic of this thread. IMHO.

Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
     
budster101
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Jul 26, 2005, 02:32 AM
 
Removed by budster.
( Last edited by budster101; Jul 26, 2005 at 02:39 AM. )
     
budster101
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Jul 26, 2005, 02:34 AM
 
To be fair, I was commenting on your topic, and was derailed myself by Warung, and I apologize for him.

-----

I was attempting to say the following before I was personally attacked.

-----

Where did I say there were more women in power than men? I said there are more women in power and now abusing it...

Same goes for all others.

Why stuck on politicians? We have many women and minority politicians, I watch CSPAN on occasion, and listen to them all speak, and I wonder if they would pass a remedial writing and speaking class... ALL OF THEM, not just the minority representatives.

Of course it isn't all one-sided, it just depends on your point of view.

I like the book and find it amusing.
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besson3c  (op)
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Jul 26, 2005, 02:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Warung
Naw...he just whishes.



Actually, if you read between the lines, our little debate here has a lot to do with the topic of this thread. IMHO.
How so? Maybe it's just late and I'm rather slow right now, but this discussion has gotten a little cryptic to me.
     
Warung
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Jul 26, 2005, 02:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
Is this something a normal person would write about another?
Believe me, I'm far from "normal".

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budster101
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Jul 26, 2005, 02:39 AM
 
I have no idea how it relates to your topic. I'll go back and edit my posts, even though they'll look weird with his in place.

.


I don't see why the book would upset you so much. I do think our morals have gone down the tubes per se, as I watch what is on television that should be on cable. Kids today are growing up too fast in my humble oppinion, and should slow down and enjoy their childhoods. I think it has to do with the two parent income causing many problems and the greedyness of the parents.

- not spending enough time with their kids, because they have to work
- having to own the best of everything thereby insuring they have to both work....
- kids are on their own too early
- school work is not being done and no parent is being involved with the school / schooling
     
Warung
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Jul 26, 2005, 02:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
To be fair, I was commenting on your topic, and was derailed myself by Warung, and I apologize for him.
Speak for yourself. Thank you.

Originally Posted by budster101
I said there are more women in power and now abusing it...
No, you wrote

Now women are in power and mistreating men on a more equal level..
Got any examples?

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besson3c  (op)
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Jul 26, 2005, 02:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
Where did I say there were more women in power than men? I said there are more women in power and now abusing it...
Okay, perhaps I misread this the first time. I was thinking that you are making some weird generalization rather than meaning "in some cases" they are abusing it. I'm sure there are some cases where they are, how is this relevant?

Why stuck on politicians? We have many women and minority politicians, I watch CSPAN on occasion, and listen to them all speak, and I wonder if they would pass a remedial writing and speaking class... ALL OF THEM, not just the minority representatives.
Politicians just seem like the best example of people in powerful positions. Maybe you're making the same argument (i.e. "in some cases"), I thought you were defending the injustices against women and blacks by saying that they now have equal power. They certainly do not. I still having a hard time making a connection here to my original post. Sorry to be so dense, but would you care to spell it out? Or was your point just incidental?

I like the book and find it amusing.
Which book? The 100 people ruining America?
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 26, 2005, 02:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
I have no idea how it relates to your topic. I'll go back and edit my posts, even though they'll look weird with his in place.

.


I don't see why the book would upset you so much. I do think our morals have gone down the tubes per se, as I watch what is on television that should be on cable. Kids today are growing up too fast in my humble oppinion, and should slow down and enjoy their childhoods. I think it has to do with the two parent income causing many problems and the greedyness of the parents.

- not spending enough time with their kids, because they have to work
- having to own the best of everything thereby insuring they have to both work....
- kids are on their own too early
- school work is not being done and no parent is being involved with the school / schooling
Just to be clear: I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here. I'm saying that it is hard to look at the overall picture and say that we are less moral now without looking at some of the atrocities that were a normal part of life in previous years.

Obviously, not everything is positive about where our culture is at now.
     
budster101
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Jul 26, 2005, 02:49 AM
 
No, you read it correctly, I just typed it wrong. I meant (more) women in power... it woudl be rediculous to say Women are in power now and men are not. Just the roles are balancing as are the abuses. When a person seeks a position of power, they are of a type that might abuse it. It's only natural.

Politicians are notorious for abuses of power and position, as it's in their personality. Who else is going to run for an office where you have such influence and power? Abuse is iminent on all levels and sizes.

I would never justify injustice to women or blacks by stating the opposite, but the point is, there is always an opposite. I actually feel like I am a minority with my being a white male in the USA. The pendulum is swinging to the other side and I feel personally that it is ok for a black person to discriminate against me, which has happened on many occassions, or when women are in positions, they become like their male counterparts and it changes them. I don't see a positive here. A man is supposed to "Hung / Gather" and today this translates into "Work / Provide", but if the woman has the better job, the male stays home and takes care of the kids, if the family is to be functional, or he also works and the kids are now on their own or with a nanny or other family member. The family unit is now fractured.

We are genetically programmed a certain way. Men one way, and women another. Now it's ok for gay marriage etc.

Yes, the book you mentioned in your first post. 100 people.
     
Warung
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Jul 26, 2005, 03:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c
Perhaps people of this generation are more vulgar and further removed from their puritanical roots, but we are also better informed and know more now then we did in years past.
But that is exactly what bothers most of the people who would love to go back to the spiritual, moral and emotional dark ages.

Too many choices, too much information makes "simple minded" people long for easy solutions to complex problems and questions.

Life won't change, and neither will nature. But it is too easy to see where "moral(ist) conservatives" are coming from. There has been a serious shift in paradigm of social discourse and values over the last 300 years (especially the last 28) which doesn't coincide with their particular view of the world and what societies should be like (this goes for the religious right in the US as well as radical muslims).

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Millennium
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Jul 26, 2005, 08:40 AM
 
Coming later in history does not necessarily mean that one is more 'enlightened'. It is true that in some ways, we are better off morally than our ancestors. However, this does not mean that we are necessarily more moral in every way. Indeed, many of the advances we've been made have been latched onto by corrupting forces, often so subtly that people haven't noticed for years, and by then they've forgotten how it all came about.

The end result is that we're probably no better than our ancetors in a moral sense, when everything is taken into account. We beat them on some issues, and they beat us on some.
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besson3c  (op)
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Jul 26, 2005, 01:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Millennium
Coming later in history does not necessarily mean that one is more 'enlightened'. It is true that in some ways, we are better off morally than our ancestors. However, this does not mean that we are necessarily more moral in every way. Indeed, many of the advances we've been made have been latched onto by corrupting forces, often so subtly that people haven't noticed for years, and by then they've forgotten how it all came about.

The end result is that we're probably no better than our ancetors in a moral sense, when everything is taken into account. We beat them on some issues, and they beat us on some.
I agree, it's a mixed bag. There seems to be such a strong movement now of people who wouldn't argue this though, but rather that we have gone down the toilet. Why do you think this seems to be so strong right now, or is my perspective skewed?
     
Millennium
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Jul 26, 2005, 04:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c
I agree, it's a mixed bag. There seems to be such a strong movement now of people who wouldn't argue this though, but rather that we have gone down the toilet. Why do you think this seems to be so strong right now, or is my perspective skewed?
You know, after some more thought, I think I'm starting to understand what the divide is. As a society, our morality is strengthening in how we treat others but degenerating in how we treat ourselves. It's an odd phenomenon, and I don't claim to understand how it works. I have some guesses, but I need to think about them some more before committing them to writing.
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Jul 26, 2005, 04:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Warung
Bwahahahahaaaa...look who's talking. Especially since the biggest bitch on this forum at the moment is another well known right wing radical.

That was rather funny especially how he always makes comments about "gay bitchiness" yet he is the most bitter queen here now that Zimphire was defeated by a gay mod

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Jul 26, 2005, 05:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker
That was rather funny especially how he always makes comments about "gay bitchiness" yet he is the most bitter queen here now that Zimphire was defeated by a gay mod
You sure have a weird obsession with Kevin.
     
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Jul 26, 2005, 06:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
First we have to figure out which of the three threads you started are going to be kept....

Now women are in power and mistreating men on a more equal level....
Now blacks are in power and mistreating whites....
Now jews aer in power and mistreating everyone they don't like....
Now whites are the new slaves....
Witch hunting? You mean like how Christians on these boards are attacked constantly?

The list does go on and on...

... SO true. I'm sure glad I'm not the only one who sees this.

Not to mention that our values HAVE deteriorated. I mean, take a look around... You want to talk about mistreating women? Look at rap music. But of course, Heaven forbid anyone try to change that or whatever, becasue the moment you do, everyone will call you a racist. WTF??

Sure, as a society some things have gotten better, ie the things you mentioned. But as budster pointed out, now their just swinging back in the opposite direction. The values I see deteriorating more than any are not social values, but family values.

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Jul 26, 2005, 06:14 PM
 
My 2 cents....

I have to agree with the statement about feeling like a Minority as a white Male american. I get no special treatment, whereas there are dozens of laws that guarantee that any "minority" will get a job over me. And often the person getting that job won't be as qualified as I am. There are hundreds of Grants and Scholarships that can help "minorities" go to school. For Free. But As a White Male American, I don't qualify.

I don't mean to complain here. I'm not having difficulty finding a job right now, or going to school. But I know people who have. In fact, the company that my Step-Dad works for leverages on the fact that it's owned by a Black Woman (She is a fantastic business person, very effective at what she does. So that's not to say that they couldn't get along without it.)

As the only existing "Majority" in America, We don't have anything to protect us.

As for Moral decline. It's my belief that there's an inherent sense of 'right' that we're born with. That sense of right is being thrown out the window. I'm not saying that if you go back in time you'll find that people had it all 'right' before, but that we're not doing a better job of getting it right. Just a different job of getting it wrong. Sure we're not hunting witches, but we're (in the national sense) indulging in Pornography... destroying a sense of the beauty of intimacy. We're acknowledging that the pursuit of money is great at the cost of our children's family structure is acceptable.

The list goes on. We keep on letting go of something we consider precious until it becomes commonplace. Moral Degeneracy results selfishness, and eventually unhappiness.
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