[Superchicken]

Frustrating thing is I still love photoshop but right now I'm considering ever buying another one of their products again.

I decided since I might be doing an internship with my church this coming year that while I still will have my student discount available to me for buying products I would see if there is any sort of prices available for non-profit organizations like churches etc. So I visited Apple's site and they have some stuff about essentially you're eligible to purchase from the Apple education store if you're a non-profit. I though OK not that great but I can live with that.
Then I think well Adobe would be the next big vendor I'd really care about getting something from. Well I visit their site and do a search for non-profit. And great it comes up with this gift program or something where you can either request four adobe products a year or a whole Creative Suite. I was like, wow that'd be awesome. So I download the application PDF to see, and on the bottom of the first page I read this,

"Adobe does NOT support: individuals, religious organizations, churches, temples, seminaries, political organizations or private foundations. Also, Adobe does not support any organizations having unlawful discriminatory practices. Organizations with a secular designation (that is a separate 501(c)(3) status from the religious organization) that provides services to people regardless of their religious beliefs and does not propagate a belief in a specific faith are eligible for this program. Example: A food bank that is a separate 501 (c)(3) organization from a church that provides food and meals to anyone who qualifies for services, regardless of religious belief would qualify.) "

I had to re-read this several times before I really got a hold of how bloody offended I should be. I kept thinking it should be Adobe supports... but nope it says NOT in there. Not just Adobe does not support, but rather Adobe does NOT support. Individuals OK whatever, religious organizations... wait a second... churches, what? Temples? Seminaries (I believe Harvard has a Seminary for those that don't know these are simply schools that focus specifically on theology, biblical studies, counselling and a few other areas of study).

Then they go on to say that they would support a secular food bank, but if a church is trying to feed the homeless but feeding the exact same people Adobe does not want to offer them any help and would rather the food bank foot a bill for photoshop!

The absolute ultimate hypocrisy of it is that Adobe states they will not support any organizations that have unlawful discriminatory policies. Granted I don't think it's illegal to discriminate against organizations based on religion, it is illegal to discriminate against people for being religious! I'm Sooo freakishly offended right now it's not even funny!
I've already called Adobe and complained, and I hope that some of you even if you are not Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Scientologist, Mormon, JW, Wiccan, whatever will consider phoning and telling Adobe that you too are pissed off that they're being so bloody bigoted.

I know personally I am trying to figure out if I want to buy their products any more. It's one thing to tell people that A P4 is better for video than an older G4... it's quite another thing to tell people a secular/atheistic view is better than having faith in anything! (For the record atheism/secularism on a world view is a much smaller belief system the biggest would be Christianity then Islam, after that if you group everyone who isn't sure together you might get the next biggest block, it's debatable but either way this policy is essentially someone part of at most 16% of the world's population saying my view is better than yours to the other 84%!).

If you want to take a look at the PDF check it out at http://www.giftsinkind.org/pdf/adobe_web.pdf

As well if you're pissed like I am, I used the number, 800-833-6687 which I got off their contact page http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/contact.html

... I'm still genuinely pissed about this... I really don't know if I'll be able to stomach buying another adobe product. And worst of all they're merging with Macromedia now so there goes another good company into this bigoted beast... though who knows how good macromedia was...
Either way... I now need to figure out my moral stance on piracy in light of this fact... is it better to buy, pirate, or simply abstain from using a product sold by a company that shows open contempt for God and His people...

Edit: I should Add M$ practically gives our church software...

[Stradlater]

Get a fucking blog.

[Cody Dawg]

That REALLY blows.



So, they won't help schools if they are faith-based?

Unbelievable!

[tikki]

I dunno why you are so mad? Adobe wouldn't give your church a steep discount on software, so you are going to boycott?

[Cody Dawg]

He doesn't need a blog. This is important stuff to know.

Seriously, why would Adobe make those rules or distinctions?

I don't get it.

[Cody Dawg]

It's much more than "just a church" not receiving software.

And, for all of you who say, "Get a blog," why don't all of YOU get a blog and blog about getting a blog?

[Stradlater]

Adobe can discount whoever they want to. And this post is prattling to the extreme. If Superchicken wants to inform us of the gist, he should title his thread appropriately and get to the point in the body.

Be concise. Be terse. If you want to rant and ramble, get a blog.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

And, for all of you who say, "Get a blog," why don't all of YOU get a blog and blog about getting a blog?

See above.

Now that I think of it, many of your posts would be better suited for a blog, too. If you think people here actually care to read it, then post links or even "x-post" it.

Please provide summaries for inane maundering, though; if possible, in the title.

[GSixZero]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

Get a fucking blog.

[- - e r i k - -]

So, Adobe supporting Apple's move to Intel, eh?

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

Adobe can discount whoever they want to. And this post is prattling to the extreme. If Superchicken wants to inform us of the gist, he should title his thread appropriately and get to the point in the body.

Be concise. Be terse. If you want to rant and ramble, get a blog.

I wouldn't mind if they didn't want to give us STEEP discounts, Apple's policy is essentially use the Edu store. I wouldn't care if they didn't offer discounts at all! However they do offer FREE software, so long as you're not religious! That's what pisses me off, the discrimination because my Church is classified as a religion! If our youth group was simply a community drop in I could get us a free copy of Studio CS to do fliers, the web site, and everything else. But because we have Christian music playing and tell our kids that there is someone who loves em even when their friends ditch em, or when their parents split up and they think everything is there fault there is still someone who loves em unconditionally.
That ****ing PISSES ME OFF! If we offered a counselling service run by Christians who would pray for the people they counselled, or a hot line or something like that, Adobe's line is screw off, but if we were say a gay organization that offered counselling for kids dealing with the stress that comes with that, they'd get a free copy of Studio CS!

Essentially Adobe is saying that one type of organization is better than the other. And that pisses me off, because I'm involved in the one that apparently is inferior. By the way I'm sure if I were complaining about Adobe having different prices for Mac users verses PC users you'd all feel this was valid!

[Mrjinglesusa]

Did you even read the PDF before posting this tripe? It says, IN THE VERY BEGINNING:

"An organization is eligible for consideration if its primary mission is: K-12 education; developing K-12
curriculum; improving K-12 student performance; providing K-12 teacher training; and/or working
to prevent hunger or homelessness."

Your church's primary mission is NONE of the above so it is ineligible FROM THE START. Quit whining...

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

Did you even read the PDF before posting this tripe? It says, IN THE VERY BEGINNING:

"An organization is eligible for consideration if its primary mission is: K-12 education; developing K-12
curriculum; improving K-12 student performance; providing K-12 teacher training; and/or working
to prevent hunger or homelessness."

Your church's primary mission is NONE of the above so it is ineligible FROM THE START. Quit whining...

Regardless, this still means that organizations like Union Gospel Mission downtown in Winnipeg are being looked down upon. I'm pissed off because Adobe is drawing this line, not because how much it does or does not impact me personally. It's still immoral and indecent to have policies like this.

[Cody Dawg]

Stradlater:

Like that word: "Maundering"

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Regardless, this still means that organizations like Union Gospel Mission downtown in Winnipeg are being looked down upon. I'm pissed off because Adobe is drawing this line, not because how much it does or does not impact me personally. It's still immoral and indecent to have policies like this.

NO, it's NOT immoral. You are just pissed that YOU are not eligible!

This is a question of a corporation rightly NOT wanting to be affiliated with ANY religious or political organization regardless because it would be corporate suicide doing it.

[Superchicken]

For the record this isn't maundering, this is pissed off ranting!

[GSixZero]

I don't see what the problem is. Religions are free to discriminate against whomever they want. Perhaps Adobe doesn't want to support discrimination by supporting those who discriminate.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Regardless, this still means that organizations like Union Gospel Mission downtown in Winnipeg are being looked down upon. I'm pissed off because Adobe is drawing this line, not because how much it does or does not impact me personally. It's still immoral and indecent to have policies like this.

No it's not. They have no "moral" obligation to give away free software to religious organizations. Their policy clearly states who this program is for:

"An organization is eligible for consideration if its primary mission is: K-12 education; developing K-12 curriculum; improving K-12 student performance; providing K-12 teacher training; and/or working to prevent hunger or homelessness."

Focus on that, not on who is excluded. This isn't religious persecution for crying out loud.

[GSixZero]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

No it's not. They have no "moral" obligation to give away free software to religious organizations. Their policy clearly states who this program is for:

"An organization is eligible for consideration if its primary mission is: K-12 education; developing K-12 curriculum; improving K-12 student performance; providing K-12 teacher training; and/or working to prevent hunger or homelessness."

Focus on that, not on who is excluded. This isn't religious persecution for crying out loud.

Wait! Are you saying that because my primary mission is not K-12 education, or working to prevent hunger or homelessness that I'm not eligible for discounts? Adobe is discriminating against me! I'm outraged!

[waxcrash]

Would you like some cheese with your whine?

We need a picture of a crying baby for this thread.

[BlueSky]

Anyone can file papers, start a religion/church and then expect to receive discounts such as the one you expect. If Joe Blow started a religion that worshipped Mars, would that be a valid religion? Perhaps yes, perhaps not.

The point is, it would put Adobe in the position of deciding which religion is valid (and therefore deserves a discount) and which religion is not valid.

Adobe is then subject to all sorts of lawsuits.

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by GSixZero

I don't see what the problem is. Religions are free to discriminate against whomever they want. Perhaps Adobe doesn't want to support discrimination by supporting those who discriminate.

Right, cause at my Church we make the black people sit in the back of the gym and the white people at the front. And of course if a gay person walked in we'd all beat him down and nail him to the stage.

News flash, not every Christian is an ass, just like not everyone who is of whatever belief system you are is an ass like you're being now. And beyond that even if you're a bigot towards Christians like you seem to be, do you like the idea that they're also insulting Wiccans, Hindus, and Buddhists? This is a blanket policy made by someone who probably has decided all religions suck because his parents went to church and were jerks.

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

Focus on that, not on who is excluded. This isn't religious persecution for crying out loud.

Yes it is, have you never heard of a Christian high school? A Christian soup kitchen? News flash this means that groups like the Salvation Army are not eligible for this sort of thing, nor are any other groups. Essentially you have to be non-Christian to receive Adobe's discount. My concern is the religious discrimination.

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by Bluesky

Anyone can file papers, start a religion/church and then expect to receive discounts such as the one you expect. If Joe Blow started a religion that worshipped Mars, would that be a valid religion? Perhaps yes, perhaps not.

The point is, it would put Adobe in the position of deciding which religion is valid (and therefore deserves a discount) and which religion is not valid.

Adobe is then subject to all sorts of lawsuits.

Riiight, cause after all everyone is going to file the papers to become their own religion because they want to get a free copy of Photoshop. The issue is not that religious people should get free software, and I don't believe you're stupid enough to have ever though that's what I was saying so drop the act.
You and I both know this is talking about organizations that are tax exempt because they have met the governments requirements for it, they are tax exempt because they meet a whole bunch of other requirements. They're not simply going to be able to go up to adobe and go I'm nonprofit because I'm not making money, they're nonprofit organizations because they meet all the other requirements, which your and my governments DON'T base on religion, because that would be discrimination!

[GSixZero]

When did I say anything about Christians?

I just think that religion isn't a badge to get free stuff. Frankly, I think religious organizations should pay taxes too.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Yes it is, have you never heard of a Christian high school? A Christian soup kitchen? News flash this means that groups like the Salvation Army are not eligible for this sort of thing, nor are any other groups. Essentially you have to be non-Christian to receive Adobe's discount. My concern is the religious discrimination.

Religious discrimination?

I'm reminded of the old saying: "It is better to hold your tounge and let people think you're an idiot than to open it and remove all doubt."

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Religious discrimination?

I'm reminded of the old saying: "It is better to hold your tounge and let people think you're an idiot than to open it and remove all doubt."

Oh sorry, I didn't realize that telling someone "We'd help you, but you're Christian" wasn't discrimination. By the way it's tongue.

[mitchell_pgh]

When I believed in God, we ran into the same issue. Just buy it from a less reputable non-profit store.
There are a bunch out there.

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

When I believed in God, we ran into the same issue. Just buy it from a less reputable non-profit store.
There are a bunch out there.

You mean... Warez sites? haha...

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Riiight, cause after all everyone is going to file the papers to become their own religion because they want to get a free copy of Photoshop.

That isn't what I said or implied. Of course, and obviously, I said "discounts SUCH AS the ones you expect".

I was trying to be helpful with what I believe is the answer to your um, enquiries. Sure I could be wrong, but what I offered makes sense to me. Adobe simply doesn't want to pick and choose and then be accused of discriminating against any one religious organization.

Originally Posted by Superchicken

The issue is not that religious people should get free software, and I don't believe you're stupid enough to have ever though that's what I was saying so drop the act.

By the way, I would like to also offer that you are a shining, gentle example of Christian charity. Jesus' heart and my heart are swelled with, well, swellitude.

Carry on, Christian soldier.

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by Bluesky

That isn't what I said or implied. Of course, and obviously, I said "discounts SUCH AS the ones you expect".

I was trying to be helpful with what I believe is the answer to your um, enquiries. Sure I could be wrong, but what I offered makes sense to me. Adobe simply doesn't want to pick and choose and then be accused of discriminating against any one religious organization.



By the way, I would like to also offer that you are a shining, gentle example of Christian charity. Jesus' heart and my heart are swelled with, well, swellitude.

Carry on, Christian soldier.

Oh sorry I didn't realize that people here in addition to expecting me to hide my faith under a rug, also wanted me to reply gently to their poorly thought out excuses for a multi-billion dollar company discriminating against people for their religious beliefs. I'll make sure to try and uphold the unreasonable and poorly thought out standard you wish to place on me but would sooner shoot someone than let them put on you.

And Christians get accused of hypocrisy.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Oh sorry I didn't realize that people here in addition to expecting me to hide my faith under a rug, also wanted me to reply gently to their poorly thought out excuses for a multi-billion dollar company discriminating against people for their religious beliefs. I'll make sure to try and uphold the unreasonable and poorly thought out standard you wish to place on me but would sooner shoot someone than let them put on you.

And Christians get accused of hypocrisy.

Run along, little boy. I have no more time for you.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

They dont support that stuff because if they support 1 of you guys, then they must support every damn one.

The Jews will get offended by Adobe supporting just the Christians and etc.

Then Adobe has to support all religions, which then the Satan worshippers start to apply for their Devil temple newsletter. Then Adobe gets sued.

I agree with their policy and I think you are outraged because you feel you are entitled to something becuase your religion makes you feel special.

[krove]

At least in the US, regardless of your religious affiliation, the Supreme Court has clearly interpreted the Constitution to the effect that private organizations (such as Adobe or the Boy Scouts) can associate with whomever they like. Even if the government classifies an organization as tax-exempt, that does not preempt the rights granted to private individuals and groups under the US Constitution.

Quoted from Roberts v. United States Jaycees (emphasis mine):

In that decision the supreme court observed that "implicit in the right to engage in activities protected by the First Amendment" is "a corresponding right to associate with others in pursuit of a wide variety of political, social, economic, educational, religious, and cultural ends."

I don't know how you Canadians do things, but here in the US, this is perfectly legal.

Oh, and for whoever asked for it:

[Yose]

Adobe won't give software to any group that has any sort of angle that excludes anybody. It even reinforces this when it states a group associated with a illegible organization that have a policy of not discriminating who receives their services, IE a foodbank or homeless shelter, becomes elligible.

What is so hard to understand?

[Chuckit]

Nobody cares if you're Christian. Just because you're Christian doesn't entitle you to discounts. You do not get the discounts because you're not a charity or a school, you're a church. A charity that had Christian workers would be eligible, because they're still a charity. Nobody is saying, "We'd help you, but you're Christian." They're saying, "We do not support any organization just because it's not for profit. You aren't one of the causes we support."

You know, I'm not for profit either, but they won't support me because I'm an individual. Should I run around screaming, "ACK ADOBE IS MISANTHROPIC"?

[Superchicken]

Wow, I never realized the community here would score so lowly on a reading comprehension test...

[Chuckit]

Superchicken, why should Adobe be giving you free software for being a church? Why should they?

[esXXI]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Nobody cares if you're Christian. Just because you're Christian doesn't entitle you to discounts. You do not get the discounts because you're not a charity or a school, you're a church. A charity that had Christian workers would be eligible, because they're still a charity. Nobody is saying, "We'd help you, but you're Christian." They're saying, "We do not support any organization just because it's not for profit. You aren't one of the causes we support."

You know, I'm not for profit either, but they won't support me because I'm an individual. Should I run around screaming, "ACK ADOBE IS MISANTHROPIC"?

If religious people get discounts, us (note: Not implying the person I'm quoting is one) atheists are being discriminated against - can we bitch and moan too then?

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Superchicken, why should Adobe be giving you free software for being a church? Why should they?

I'm not saying they should. I'm saying though that they shouldn't tell me that they would have given me something, but now won't because I'm a Christian.

I'll put it to you this way, if Adobe is right in doing this. I am right in saying, "I would offer you a free ice cream cone, cause I just feel like a nice guy today, but because you're Muslim I now will not offer you this ice cream."

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Well that was retarded.

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by esXXI

If religious people get discounts, us (note: Not implying the person I'm quoting is one) atheists are being discriminated against - can we bitch and moan too then?

No because the atheists are the ones getting the discounts bright eyes.

[zoetrope]

Hey, if you don't like Adobe...feel free to download this piece of garbage It's free and non denominational.

And if you don't like that turd, download GIMP. Which is free and a very good alternative to Photoshop

I think you're just whining because you couldn't scam a free copy of Photoshop from Adobe using your "church" as an excuse. Would Jesus get "pissed" if he couldn't download a free copy of Photoshop

[Earth Mk. II]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Wow, I never realized the community here would score so lowly on a reading comprehension test...

IANAL, but it seems that if the same people who ran the church also ran a separate charitable organization that Adobe supports, then that charitable organization would be eligible. The two organizations could even share the same space (the food kitchen being run from the church social hall, for example).

It looks like, and I'm only assuming here, that Adobe only want to support charitable non-profits. They probably exclude religious organizations because there's no clear way to determine if a religious org is functioning in a purely universal and charitable way, or if they are using their status as a religious organization to exclude certain persons from that charity.

Honestly, it just looks like Adobe is trying a little too hard to protect it's own ass, and there are ways around it if your church runs any sort of service that would otherwise be included in this discount program.

You don't have to like it though. So go ahead and be outraged if you wanna be... but Adobe really won't care.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

I'm not saying they should. I'm saying though that they shouldn't tell me that they would have given me something, but now won't because I'm a Christian.

I'll put it to you this way, if Adobe is right in doing this. I am right in saying, "I would offer you a free ice cream cone, cause I just feel like a nice guy today, but because you're Muslim I now will not offer you this ice cream."

It's nothing like that. It's not because you're a Christian. I'm an atheist and I can't get a discount either. They won't give you a discount because you're a church, and they only offer the deal to a charities and schools. This is more like you saying, "I would offer you our senior discount on my ice cream, but you're only 23."

Originally Posted by Superchicken

No because the atheists are the ones getting the discounts bright eyes.

No, they aren't. Atheist organizations wouldn't be getting any money under this deal either. "Not explicitly religious" != "atheist." For instance, the Ronald McDonald House is not an atheist organization, but it is not disqualified as a religion.

[chris v]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

my Church is classified as a religion!

The horror.

[kmkkid]

You can't get free software cause you're religious.


Gays can't get married legally in most states because of religion.




Boo, ****ing hoo. What comes around goes around, as they say...

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by zoetrope

Hey, if you don't like Adobe...feel free to download this piece of garbage It's free and non denominational.

And if you don't like that turd, download GIMP. Which is free and a very good alternative to Photoshop

I think you're just whining because you couldn't scam a free copy of Photoshop from Adobe using your "church" as an excuse. Would Jesus get "pissed" if he couldn't download a free copy of Photoshop

Right, I wanted to scam Adobe, I couldn't have just googled for Photoshop CS 2 cracks or anything, I'm SURE I wouldn't have found a copy far easier than even finding the nonprofit org stuff on Adobe's site. What I WAS doing was seeing if I could LEGALLY, and MORALLY get tools for doing work FOR the church if I work there this year since the senior pastor when I talked to him about ministry this year was quite interested in the prospect of me doing some graphic design stuff for different things in the church.

If I hadn't found anything I would have simply bought CS2 with my student discount. I recently bought FCE HD for doing some videography stuff for the Church. So No I'm not against paying for software when doing stuff for a nonprofit. However I DO have a problem when I am told that a company thinks helping nonprofits is great, so long as they aren't those crazy religious types.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

No because the atheists are the ones getting the discounts bright eyes.

Really?

Because all the NON-affiliated services insist that you be atheist in order to work for them?

That would be discrimination, my friend.

But apparently, only churches are allowed the right to do that.

[esXXI]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

No because the atheists are the ones getting the discounts bright eyes.

No, it's Adobe assuming the other groups have a neutral stance on religion. Neutral != Atheism.

But don't worry, I'm sure you'll get your 99¢ off someday.