[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

I'd like to point out that there's a difference between a Faith and a Religion. Hindu, for example, is a Religion. Christianity is a Faith (but can also be a Relgion.)

As far as I can tell, Christians were the first people to turn Religion into a Faith. That's part of the reason Jesus was exectuted. When a Religion becomes a Faith, people start doing really stupid things in the name of their Faith to prove other people wrong. When the Romans conqured other people they actually let them keep their own religions, or (if they wanted to) could follow the Greek/Roman mythology. This was a great way to maintain peace as Relgion was thought or more as a set of guidelines on how you should live your life. You don't have to worship anything.

I'm not sure I get what you're saying. What is the distinction you are making between "Faith" and "Religion"? Apparently Christianity was the first Faith, but I'm confused as to what exactly Christianity pioneered.

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Well, I have no excuse. Simple mistake.

I appreciate it. Thank you.

Perfect time as any. As it should be public anyway. Please forgive me for my insults of your character. It was uncalled for. I find you have matured quite a bit in the last few months.

Tame your tongue a little more and you'll make a fine pastor.

Remember, just because it's not meant as an insult, people can misunderstand you and be torn apart by simple words.

I'll forgive you for both your theological mistake (a very minor one, you were still in the same school which actually very much impressed me) and certainly for your previous comments. Go figure two hot heads occasionally mad at each-other saying things they shouldn't have

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I'm not sure I get what you're saying. What is the distinction you are making between "Faith" and "Religion"? Apparently Christianity was the first Faith, but I'm confused as to what exactly Christianity pioneered.

This is coming from the school of thought that has been known to say, "Christianity is not a religion it's a relationship" however what is being presented to you is more mature in that it recognizes a religion by definition is a set of beliefs, perspectives, and ideals that are applied to a person's life.

What Christians often like to tell people, because it's true, is that Christianity is not simply a set of rules, or things you do that people often associate with the word religion. Instead it is a living breathing dynamic relationship with the Creator of the universe who drew near to them to have an intimate personal relationship. Thus Christianity when talked about by these sorts of people is seen as a Friendship with God, in addition a revenant relationship still recognizing Him as Father. As well it is a set of ideals, principles, and habits that are brought about by the love that is generated in the heart of the individual follower of Christ.
True Christianity is always born out of love. This is not love in the eros sense but love in the agape sense. It is a selfless love for first of all God, and second of all those around us, and believe it or not it is scriptural to say especially other Christians.

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by sek929

There used to be this girl in my 9th grade chem class and she was very religious. Me being the ass I was back then used to say things like "God doesn't exist", or "there is no Heaven." She would never really respond but the look of severe tension and anxiety always washed over her face as if she were scared to death that I was correct and that her magic fairytale of an existence meant nothing.

Maybe the look on her face was worry for you, not uncertainty of her faith? Though I do not know that many grade 9s who have absolute certainty of their own convictions, but I have known some. But in the end I hope this girl genuinely grew from your persecution of her. You might think of finding her an apologizing.

[Ω]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

why do you care if someone judges you? It's not an Earthly judgement and the vast majority of Christians wouldn't hold it against you in secular affairs anyhow.

I think it simply hurts your feelings... and possibly waaaay in the back of your mind, deep in the subconcious, you fear that they may be right.

ERRGGGHHHH!!! WRONG!!!!

My problem is that they are small minded hypocritical wankers who instead of living their lives as good people try and force their beliefs on to me.

And you do not want to know what is happening in the back of my mind!

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Ω

ERRGGGHHHH!!! WRONG!!!!

My problem is that they are small minded hypocritical wankers who instead of living their lives as good people try and force their beliefs on to me.

And you do not want to know what is happening in the back of my mind!

Me thinks thou doth protesteth too much.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

So... the question I pose at the end of my big long stream of thought...

Are you OK with turning a blind eye to someone else when they treat other people as less for no good reason? Or do you actually say something?

It depends.

Can they defend themselves? If yes, I do not see why I should go about and involve myself in a discussion I was not invited in to start lecturing people about what I perceive to be unfair. I do not see why I should defend gays; they are all adults who can talk for themselves. I do not see why I should defend Christians; they are so many and they have mouths to talk and and hands to write with.

Do they deserve special status? Nobody deserves a special status of respect as long as they are humans.

If they cannot defend themselves, well, I will interfere and try to understand what is going on first. But sometimes, it is not worth it to try to reason people about their beliefs. We see this constantly in these fora, where beliefs take over on facts; clearly, no one is really right. There is just this "feeling good" attitude of feeling like being the "right" one or the "strong" one versus being the "evil" or the "weak" one. In the end, reason rarely wins; what is won, is an illusion of control over others through some persuasion.

In general, I appreciate people able of self-criticism; those I learn a lot from and I hope they learn from me too. Those need not to be defended; they need to talk for themselves and they are the only one who can do that.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by Ω

My problem is that they are small minded hypocritical wankers

Ah, the irony.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Telling people they're going to Hell becuase they don't share your faith is also a terrbile thing to do. That's why I have little respect for most Christians.

Christianity isn't the only religion that says that theirs is the only way.

You hate them too? Or just Christianity?

There are quite a few, mind you, that treat Christianity as a Religion versus a Faith. Of course, they're probably going to Hell too.

Both is wrong. It's a way of life.

You know, I am not big on the whole JW thing.

But for some reason, I never felt the need to rant about it, or even start a thread about it.

They can tell me I am going to hell for not being a JW, and it does not bother me a bit.

They are actually even pushier than Christians.

But still no angst here.

I've even invited them in to talk (Some of the gals were pretty hot)

I am just wondering what gets certain anti-christian zealots panties in a knot about it.

Did Christianity beat you up on the playground?

[loki74]

oelPigeon: I am a Christian and I for one, dont tell people theyre going to hell. And I know no Christians who do, except in *obvious* jest. (That may not be a good thing either, but that would be a whole other debate...) You accusation, my friend, is a generalization. Or in other words, biggotry.

[Ω]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Ah, the irony.

I may be small minded, I can on occassion be a complete wanker, but I will NOT be called a hypocrite!

[hyteckit]

Superchicken doesn't need a blog. He needs a hug.

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by loki74

You accusation, my friend, is a generalization. Or in other words, biggotry.

No, that would be stereotyping.

[loki74]

That would be stereotyping as a reason for biggotry. A reason to dislike Christians is being unjustly applied to all Christians, who as a result are cumulatively being prejudiced. That, my friend, is bogitry. Please connect the dots--I know you can.

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by loki74

That would be stereotyping as a reason for biggotry. A reason to dislike Christians is being unjustly applied to all Christians, who as a result are cumulatively being prejudiced. That, my friend, is bogitry. Please connect the dots--I know you can.

He never said he dislikes Christians.

Originally Posted by olePigeon

That's why I have little respect for most Christians.

Just like you christians can "not respect/approve of" homosexuals but still not hate them.

Stereotyping != Biggotry

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

They can tell me I am going to hell for not being a JW, and it does not bother me a bit.

Um, if Jehovah's Witnesses are saying that you're going to hell for not being one of them, you might want to consider filing a complaint. They're not supposed to do that. Actually, they're not supposed to believe in a Hell either.

[Macrobat]

The answer to the question in the thread title?

Somewhere between 570 and 632 A.D.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

Like plenty of Christians, who fear that they may be wrong?

Hmmm... I've met very, very few of those. If they have that fear, then they're likely not going to be Christian for long.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Ω

ERRGGGHHHH!!! WRONG!!!!

My problem is that they are small minded hypocritical wankers who instead of living their lives as good people try and force their beliefs on to me.

and you care why? No one forces any religious belief on anyone. Just tell them no, or "go away". Or, you can simply answer the door naked... works wonders and I sincerely doubt the Baptists will be back to visit me any time soon.

Dude, grow some thicker skin and realize that the rest of the world isn't here just to convenience you.

[Ω]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

the rest of the world isn't here just to convenience you.

Then what is it here for?

Can any spell "megalomania"?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by AKcrab

Just like you christians can "not respect/approve of" homosexuals but still not hate them.

Stereotyping != Biggotry

I don't "not respect/approve of" homosexuals. They are the same as everyone else on Earth.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Maybe the look on her face was worry for you, not uncertainty of her faith? Though I do not know that many grade 9s who have absolute certainty of their own convictions, but I have known some. But in the end I hope this girl genuinely grew from your persecution of her. You might think of finding her an apologizing.

No thats just you imagining what story would work best for your reply to my post.

I hope she grew out of talking about her pastor all the time and all the fun things she does at Bible camp, god she was friggin annoying. But yeah I was an asshole...I like to see who wasn't an asshole in 9th grade, and if you weren't then you must've been a nerd.

BTW Zimph, don't scare me by saying I remind you of yourself at a younger age

At this point I despise closed-mindedness in all its forms, unless used for humor's sake, in that case its ok.

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by Railroader

I don't "not respect/approve of" homosexuals. They are the same as everyone else on Earth.

Yah... how exactly would one go about not approving of someone? Like, for what? Humanhood? I don't think you have the right to approve of someone for that... I mean I've heard of dad's not approving of the boys their daughters date, but I doubt there are that many actively gay guys who are going to be asking some girl out and getting her dad pissed as a result.
Honestly I think if a gay/straight/whatever person wants my approval for their life style, without me having some sort of previous connecting with them where my opinion SHOULD matter, they honestly need to get a hold of things in their life. There's a kid at our YG who we're slowly getting to realize that it shouldn't matter to your core what anyone but God thinks of you. Slowly he's getting that and is a lot happier as a result I think.

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by Railroader

I don't "not respect/approve of" homosexuals. They are the same as everyone else on Earth.

Ah, see. I stereotyped. My apologies.
However, that doesn't make me a bigot.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Um, if Jehovah's Witnesses are saying that you're going to hell for not being one of them, you might want to consider filing a complaint. They're not supposed to do that. Actually, they're not supposed to believe in a Hell either.

I was giving an example. Funny how some people get upset over some things of the like, while others do not.

BTW Zimph, don't scare me by saying I remind you of yourself at a younger age

Heh that isn't what I meant. Just because you remind me of me at a younger age doesn't mean you'll choose the same paths.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Railroader

I don't "not respect/approve of" homosexuals. They are the same as everyone else on Earth.

This is actually very important. I consider myself a Christian. Not a very good one in the most stictest sense as I've been known to swear, drink large amounts of adult beverage, and occassionally engage the lude joke, but I had an eye-opener a few years ago. The Communications firm I was working for has a diversity department. This diversity department not only includes different genders obviously, but differing races, religions, and sexual preferences. They had sent out an email to all of the folks at work asking for a suitable place to hold a gay parade. Like a moron, I looked over at a friend of mine and said; "how 'bout right down the middle of I-80." Little did I know, the one seated behind my friend was a closet homosexual going through counseling. He was married with a child, had come to grips with the fact that he was gay, and had just divorced his wife. When he first told close friends of his that he was gay, he had one of them tell me. He said my joke was one of the deciding factors behind his decision to come out. I immediately sent him an email and asked if we could have a talk outside over a cigarrette. Thankfully, he obliged. In the interest of making someone laugh, I had insulted someone else to a great degree. Tearfully, I asked for his apology. I can honestly say I've never been more ashamed of myself. It caused me to learn a great deal about myself and about homosexuality and homosexuals. I have an opinion regarding this issue that may differ from his or populist thought on the matter, but can tell you that there is rarely an opportunity for this to even be an important talking point. Further down the road as our friendship progressed I began to feel more comfortable about asking him things I'd never known about homosexuals. He's actively involved with his boyfriend and I've asked them about dynamics of their relationship, are roles assumed and silly, but honest questions like that. He's very open about things and we've grown quite close. He was talking to another friend of ours not long ago about different religions and some books that he had read and I noticed there were several things mentioned from Buddhism to TM, but Christianity was not even remotely hinted at in his list of curiosities. I asked him if he had ever considered learning more about Christianity and he flatly said; "no." They're too quick to judge me, etc... I believe as Christians we've really missed the boat on this one particularly though I'll be quick to reiterate I've known very, very few Christians who'd suggest someone is going to hell. As a Christian I believe the ol' addage; "preach the good news". Going to hell is not good news. Salvation is good news. Oh well, I won't bother you about this much more. I just want to say that as Christians (in spite of the persecution we might experience) are to stand strong in that, lean into it, and be very unique in the manner in which we conduct ourselves to others. A homosexual who is willing to avail himself of all, but Christianity is missing out I believe. As Christians we know this, we should be more conscious of the good news than the bad, that's all I'm trying to say. When considering philosophical or theological interests, Christianity should not be dropped to the bottom of his list because of the lion-share of people telling him the way he lives (knowing that he spent 8 years in counseling, not wanting to be gay) damns him to hell. I know few of this do it, but enough of us have to have caused him to caste Christianity out of the realm of possible endeavors. I hope to change that not by trying to convert him to Christianity or Heterosexuality, but by simply being an open, honest, and decent person.

It is difficult to be sure. I've been known to get kind of insulting here and was recently reminded of how offensive I'd become. I will start today by trying to be more patient and rational in dealing with those who oppose my views or insult my philosophy. I'll be a kinder, gentler ebuddy.

[TheMosco]

Originally Posted by CreepingDeth

Look at it this way. If people of a religion that states judgment is for another life judge you based on your beliefs, why should you care? They're not following their religion in their condemnation of you, so what value do their words have, assuming their is a time of judgment is another life?

Its when their words start turning into actions when things get difficult.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

I will start today by trying to be more patient and rational in dealing with those who oppose my views or insult my philosophy. I'll be a kinder, gentler ebuddy.

I have a few thoughts for you.

How can someone insult a philosophy? I mean, a philosophy is a set of ideas. An insult is an invective carrying a judgement, but how can a philosophy be hurt, unless you identify with it?

You are not your philosophy, right? You choose it becuase it fits you best compared to any other philosophies/beliefs/Faiths available on the table.

But how can you be insulted for a choice that only you can comprehend, since it is your choice, your own personal choice, made from a history of personal experiences, thoughts, exchanges with others, etc?

I don't believe the Bible is enough for that belief; at least half of your choice comes from a personal process that lead you to change and become who you are today. People could desecrate the Holy book, yet, your belief stays untouched, because the ideas of that book are yours, strongly entertwined with your own life.

How can someone else have the power of hurting your feelings on something they have no idea about?

How can biggotry touch anyone if, when we look at it closely, the biggots know absolutely nothing that can have an effect on you, unless you decide it should have an effect?

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Yah... how exactly would one go about not approving of someone? Like, for what? Humanhood? I don't think you have the right to approve of someone for that... I mean I've heard of dad's not approving of the boys their daughters date, but I doubt there are that many actively gay guys who are going to be asking some girl out and getting her dad pissed as a result.
Honestly I think if a gay/straight/whatever person wants my approval for their life style, without me having some sort of previous connecting with them where my opinion SHOULD matter, they honestly need to get a hold of things in their life. There's a kid at our YG who we're slowly getting to realize that it shouldn't matter to your core what anyone but God thinks of you. Slowly he's getting that and is a lot happier as a result I think.

I know...err, think, at least, that you're making a joke here. But you're still an idiot.

Most people, homosexuals or otherwise, don't care that much about approval, but most people care about the immediate disapproval from others for no good reason. While not all Christians immediately disapprove of the homosexual lifestyle, many do—of course, many non-Christians disapprove, as well.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by SimpleLife

I have a few thoughts for you.

How can someone insult a philosophy? I mean, a philosophy is a set of ideas. An insult is an invective carrying a judgement, but how can a philosophy be hurt, unless you identify with it?

You're absolutely right SimpleLife, the problem is your points are always easy to say, not follow. In other words, the relationship does become personal. When something becomes personal to you, it indeed becomes part of your identity. Right or wrong I don't entirely know, it just does.

You are not your philosophy, right? You choose it becuase it fits you best compared to any other philosophies/beliefs/Faiths available on the table.

I would start by illustrating the definition of "philosophy";

1) Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
2) Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.

The "pursuit" is perhaps where this all gets personal and becomes more than how you think, but how you act and who you are. In other words, now that you know what you know, what do you do with the information? If you find yourself having to defend it often, you may become defensive by nature. This is mistaken I grant you, but unfortunately true. I'm going to focus more on not being so defensive about it because you're correct, it should not require defense. I'm not going to convince someone the wisdom I've attained is valuable if I have to cram it down their throats. I would want someone who is admittedly searching, to simply be curious enough to have a taste. If it looks too much like brussel sprouts on the surface (because of the way I've conducted myself in it), few would be interested in tasting.

But how can you be insulted for a choice that only you can comprehend, since it is your choice, your own personal choice, made from a history of personal experiences, thoughts, exchanges with others, etc?

Because a philosophy, unlike a solid education for which you can experiment and conclude, is different. It becomes the root behind the operating system. It becomes part of who you are and why you do the things you do and in some cases why you say the things you say.

I don't believe the Bible is enough for that belief; at least half of your choice comes from a personal process that lead you to change and become who you are today. People could desecrate the Holy book, yet, your belief stays untouched, because the ideas of that book are yours, strongly entertwined with your own life.

You're absolutely correct. Again though, easier said than done. Technically, I should feel empathy for someone this capable of cruelty, this disconnected with compassion, one who has closed their eyes to the extent that they could miss out on a truly valuable experience, but it's much easier to become defensive and aggressive. I guess this is why Christians refer to this as a "walk" and not a ride.

How can someone else have the power of hurting your feelings on something they have no idea about?

Good question. I guess it's partially because I might be surprised by the audacity for one to be so opinionated on something for which they know little about. Again though, you're right. There's really no reason to view it this way.

How can biggotry touch anyone if, when we look at it closely, the biggots know absolutely nothing that can have an effect on you, unless you decide it should have an effect?

All I can really say is it shouldn't, but easier said than done. I'm hurt by the fact that some have misrepresented a valuable experience and have alienated others away from even wanting to have a taste. I find that to be very unfortunate, but then I too have taken it too personally at times. What can I say; if you're not growing, you're dying.

[TheMosco]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Honestly I think if a gay/straight/whatever person wants my approval for their life style, without me having some sort of previous connecting with them where my opinion SHOULD matter, they honestly need to get a hold of things in their life. There's a kid at our YG who we're slowly getting to realize that it shouldn't matter to your core what anyone but God thinks of you. Slowly he's getting that and is a lot happier as a result I think.

I think its somewhat human nature to want to feel accepted by your peers. You don't want to feel like an outsider. But there are people out there who claim to be christian and make homosexuals feel like they are inhuman. And sadly, sometimes these people are often the most vocal and it could be interpreted by some that these hateful people represent all christians.

And you are right, no one should care what others think and according to your philosphy the only one that you should care about is god. But its not that easy. They are so many hateful people out there. Its hard to live a life of persecution, as evident of the early followers of Jesus. You try and stay strong to your fait, but over and over again you are told you express your love, you can't live your life no matter how good a christian you are because you have this black mark on your soul that bars you from acting on your deepest emotions without facing the consequences.

ebuddy post was great. Its really hard to understand what some people are going through until you really get to know them. Homosexuals aren't a bunch sex crazed maniecs that take part in massive homosexual orgies while planning to overthrough the government and have us bow to the homosexual overlords like something people make them out to be. For many, there life is full of confusion and fear. And no one should have to feel like that.

I went to an all guys catholic high school. I was on the facebook earlier in the year and I was browsing kids in my class. I noticed one of that one of my friends was listed as interested as Men. I had always suspected that he might be gay, but we never made it known in high school. He was in a social issues class I was in. It was one of my favorite classed ever. The teacher, although catholic, was in favor of gay marraige. This was during the debate over same sex marraige in the Massachusetts House. Looking back at our debates I feel ashamed. I feel ashamed at what he was forced to sit through. I feel ashamed that some of my classmates could be so hateful. Its no one wonder that he didn't want to come out in high school. He couldn't be himself without being subjected to snide and hateful remarks by so-called christians (most weren't catholic, it was a good mix).

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

I know...err, think, at least, that you're making a joke here. But you're still an idiot.

Most people, homosexuals or otherwise, don't care that much about approval, but most people care about the immediate disapproval from others for no good reason. While not all Christians immediately disapprove of the homosexual lifestyle, many do—of course, many non-Christians disapprove, as well.

THE Homosexual life style? They only have one life style? They can't enjoy something that not every other gay guy or girl does? What if someone enjoys wind surfing and also likes anal sex with a guy... not every gay person in the gay lifestyle enjoys wind surfing... is our hero now required to give up his love of wind surfing to live THE gay lifestyle?

I don't see how anyone can disapprove of every gay or straight life style out there. So why worry about what other people think? I'm still despite my recent bouts with the gym a pretty fat guy, I get looked down upon by lots of people because I have lovely (though recently diminishing) collections of fat hanging around my body. Should I really care what anyone else thinks when I'm walking down the street? Of course not. This whole mentality of everyone must think I'm great 24/7 that so many people promote is lame.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

THE Homosexual life style? They only have one life style? They can't enjoy something that not every other gay guy or girl does? What if someone enjoys wind surfing and also likes anal sex with a guy... not every gay person in the gay lifestyle enjoys wind surfing... is our hero now required to give up his love of wind surfing to live THE gay lifestyle?

It was an Idiocy Grandeur!

I don't see how anyone can disapprove of every gay or straight life style out there. So why worry about what other people think? I'm still despite my recent bouts with the gym a pretty fat guy, I get looked down upon by lots of people because I have lovely (though recently diminishing) collections of fat hanging around my body. Should I really care what anyone else thinks when I'm walking down the street? Of course not. This whole mentality of everyone must think I'm great 24/7 that so many people promote is lame.

Many people do disapprove of every gay person because of their sexual orientation. And you should worry about issues with people, while walking down the street, if those issues can lead to abuse—physical or mental. In some areas of the U.S., where Christian conservatism is the rule, gay hate crimes are not uncommon.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

In some areas of the U.S., where Christian conservatism is the rule, gay hate crimes are not uncommon.

Are you saying Christians are committing those crimes? Or it's simply a coincidence?

And where are the "areas" where "Christian conservatism is the rule"?

[loki74]

Originally Posted by AKcrab

Ah, see. I stereotyped. My apologies.
However, that doesn't make me a bigot.

maybe not. Not in your case anyway. True, stereotyping != bogotry. But Steretyping leads to bigotry. Love != the Dark Side, but it leads there. Same concept i guess

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

Many people do disapprove of every gay person because of their sexual orientation.

Disapprove of the person, or the actions?

And you should worry about issues with people, while walking down the street, if those issues can lead to abuse—physical or mental.

Like the verbal abuse the Christians receive in here?

The very people that do this are no better than the idiots that follow gay people around calling them fags and such.

In some areas of the U.S., where Christian conservatism is the rule, gay hate crimes are not uncommon.

And Christianity does not cause this. It cannot.

Your beef is with man.

There are many cases where non-Christians have beaten up homosexuals too.

But you never hear people talking about them.

Actually, I know more non-Christian homophobes than Christian ones.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Disapprove of the person, or the actions?

Depends on the person who's disapproving. Some people consider others the composite of their actions—of course, the judge weighs which actions are more important in determining what makes the man.

Like the verbal abuse the Christians receive in here?

Some of it, sure.

And Christianity does not cause this. It cannot.

Your beef is with man.

There are many cases where non-Christians have beaten up homosexuals too.

But you never hear people talking about them.

Actually, I know more non-Christian homophobes than Christian ones.

Christianity does not, necessarily, but many forms of conservatism do. Many abusers, of course, aren't Christian, but they do come from either conservative or abusive (in a traditional/conservative manner) households. In my personal walk of life, I've been acquainted with more Christian homophobes than non-Christian—none were violent, though.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Are you saying Christians are committing those crimes? Or it's simply a coincidence?

And where are the "arears" where "Christian conservatism is the rule"?

I'm saying it's a traditional/conservative mindset (no, I'm not saying that all conservatives are racist or anti-gay, etc.). The Christian presence in these areas makes sense, because of the conservatism, but I am not saying that Christians are committing those crimes—not all or even most of them, anyway.

Small towns and rural areas tend to be more conservative—portions of the south, midwest, even small New England areas...you can find areas like that anywhere.

There are prominent exceptions—ethnic ghettos and neighborhoods in urban space, for example, where there is a disdain for homosexuality built into certain ethnic values; these areas, of course, share social similarities with small towns, though.

[Superchicken]

Up here I occasionally hear my youth group kids say something rude about homosexuals. When I hear it I correct it and make it clear that I disapprove of them talking or even thinking that way (Fortunately I'm "The Cool Sponsor" so most actually listen). But from knowing them, I can say they more likely get it from their friends at school than their parents (those with Christian parents I mean). Yes I have known Christian homophobes. But I also know more non-Christian ones. Though most Christian gay haters I know I would hesitate to call them Christian. Most people who I know for certain are genuinely saved and in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit would not talk crudely/disrespectfully of just about anyone, not because they do or don't like their life style, but rather because they see them as equally being created in the Creator's image.

Your beef should not be with Christianity but rather those who pretend. If all you do is spend your time bashing Christianity you cause more fear to hold back those who would live transformed lives and have the character change that said life would bring. If you want to stop hate towards anyone, you should stop showing it to belief systems that if actually followed out bring people toward a better outlook.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I'm not sure I get what you're saying. What is the distinction you are making between "Faith" and "Religion"? Apparently Christianity was the first Faith, but I'm confused as to what exactly Christianity pioneered.

OK, I have a better analogy:

Religion = Guidelines & suggestions
Faith = Rules and Laws

As long as you keep Religion as a set of guidelines instead of rules, there's nothing to argue about. There're no rules to break and no punishment (aka judgement) that can be passed on other who break those rules. You don't invade other countries because they're "breaking" your Faith's Laws. There's no reason to try and forcefully convert people so they adhear to your laws. Women aren't stoned to death because they haven't done anything wrong. You can disaprove of ones lifestyle (like homosexuality) but since they're not breaking any laws, it's not your place (or anyone's place) to judge them or tell them what's right or wrong. You leave that to the Guy/Gal Upstairs.

That is part of the reason why I respect St. Patrick and why I think the spread of Christianity throughout Ireland was relatively peaceful (and too bad most "Christians" didn't take a clue from Patrick.) Patrick didn't try to convert anyone through force, he didn't tell Celts that what they're doing is Evil, per sey, but he told them how much better their lives could be if they were Christians. The Celts can keep their "pagan" gods and rituals, so long as they attend mass on Sunday, and live like Christians. A set of guidelines to live a better life through Christianity.

So what Christianity pioneered was a set of Laws that everyone should live by no matter who or where you are. These laws are higher than any other laws, and when you break those laws, you're punished regardless.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Up here I occasionally hear my youth group kids say something rude about homosexuals. When I hear it I correct it and make it clear that I disapprove of them talking or even thinking that way (Fortunately I'm "The Cool Sponsor" so most actually listen). But from knowing them, I can say they more likely get it from their friends at school than their parents (those with Christian parents I mean). Yes I have known Christian homophobes. But I also know more non-Christian ones. Though most Christian gay haters I know I would hesitate to call them Christian. Most people who I know for certain are genuinely saved and in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit would not talk crudely/disrespectfully of just about anyone, not because they do or don't like their life style, but rather because they see them as equally being created in the Creator's image.

That just tells me that there are decent people who are Christians, that doesn't change my opinion about Christianity. I disapprove of a religion that condemns people for what they're born with and can't change short of gene resequencing.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

That just tells me that there are decent people who are Christians, that doesn't change my opinion about Christianity. I disapprove of a religion that condemns people for what they're born with and can't change short of gene resequencing.

Where does Christianity condem "for what they're born with and can't change short of gene resequencing". Where in the Bible?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

That just tells me that there are decent people who are Christians, that doesn't change my opinion about Christianity. I disapprove of a religion that condemns people for what they're born with and can't change short of gene resequencing.

I appreciate your input olePigeon, but I do want to split a hair here. Christianity is not, in and of itself, a religion. I would be curious to ask you though what religion does not disapprove of homosexuality? As far as I know, just about every culture to date has expressed a problem with homosexuality. Now, if you're going to say this is why you're not religious, then I understand, but to single out Christianity seems a bit specific and harsh don't you think? Even if there was a religion "Christianism", would it be the only religion that disapproves of homosexuality and do you then wholly reject them all for the same reason or is it still just Christianity?

[macamac]

Islam is one of the biggest HATERS of homosexuality.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Where does Christianity condem "for what they're born with and can't change short of gene resequencing". Where in the Bible?

This comes from two major assumptions: one, that attraction to one gender or the other is inborn and uncontrollable, and two, that Christianity condemns people for something they are, not something they do. The jury is still out on the first, and the second is a misconception arising from the unfortunate fact that "the condition of being attracted to persons of one's own gender" and "sexual intercourse between persons of the same gender" have the same name in certain languages, including English.

The Bible repeatedly condemns the second, in both the Old and New Testaments. It never once condemns the first. In fact, it could not possibly condemn the first, because at the time it was written there was no word for such a thing. Certainly there were persons who preferred their own gender, but the concept of 'sexual orientation' as we know it today -straight, gay, or otherwise- had no name and wasn't considered anything more than a personal eccentricity. This is a fact which is, sadly, often overlooked by Christians and Christian-bashers alike, and the second is confused for the first. The results on both sides are disastrous: for so-called Christians, it means hating something people are instead of something people do, which is one of the most un-Christian concepts there could possibly be. For those who oppose Christianity, it means forgetting that the reverse is even possible, which in turn leads to accusations of hate where none exists. Both sides breed resentment of the other, and the cycle continues. It is truly a sad thing.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by macamac

Islam is one of the biggest HATERS of homosexuality.

"Show me yours I'll show you mine"
"My mom is a better cook than yours"
"I can pee farther than you can"

Your post is elevated to the underground.

Are you stupid or what? You will show us that Christianity is better? That will make you feel better, right?

"I am Christian, therefore I am better than everyone else!"

In la-la-Land. that works, but in reality, human beings do human stuff and the hatred you express in this thread is just one tokken that has nothing to do with belonging to a Faith but to a will to look good.

Hide.

[macamac]

What the hell are you ranting about? Where did I ever mention anything about Christianity?
Do you people have half a clue? <rhetorical>

"Hide"

You threatening me?

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by macamac

What the hell are you ranting about? Where did I ever mention anything about Christianity?
Do you people have half a clue? <rhetorical>

"Hide"

You threatening me?

I meant "hide in shame". You paranoid biggot.

[macamac]

I stated a fact. What makes me a biggot? I have said nothing to be ashamed of!

Now then, Why didn't you just state, "Hide in shame"? Coward.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by macamac

I stated a fact. What makes me a biggot? I have said nothing to be ashamed of!

Now then, Why didn't you just state, "Hide in shame"? Coward.

These facts are in your mind and you express them very well thank you.
It is also called "prejudice".

You can blame Islam one day, and others will blame Christianity the morning after, then others will follow with Buddhism. It's all a question of perspective.

Yours is clear now; that you are willing to throw your prejudice on Islam is one thing, but that you make it worse than any other religion is either pure ignorance, or pure biggotry.

By making a statement of your opinion only about Islam reveals more about your own stuff than Islam, for there is no such thing as a religion that protect homosexuality.